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Chancho

Did Edmure save Robb's Life?

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If this was the case and the plan has such a large timescale there's literally no reason not to tell Edmure, this is a huge commitment from the Stark/Tully forces and hinges on the co-operation of the armies in the Riverlands.

Agree with most of the post and i truly never understood why nothing was shared with Edmure... I guess it's a last minute plan that they come up with things shaping up with the last updates of info they got, it's the ONLY reason i can think.

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He never states that he wants to protect Robb against Tywin. He want's glory, and revenge against the Lannisters.

Edmure plans also fails.

“Yes, but once the castle falls, Lord Tywin will have no safe retreat. My own levies will defend the fords of Red Fork against his crossing. If he attacks across the river, he’ll end as Rhaegar did when he tried to cross the Trident. If he holds back, he’ll be caught between Riverrun and Harrenhal, and when Robb returns from the west we can finish him for good and all.”

He failed to kill Tywin, Tywin wasn't traped between the armies since he was able to march to Kings Landing and Edmure also didn't knwo how long would took for Robb to came back from the West.

Robb didn't know how long would take for Stannis to take SE, but he knew that it would happen and his plan was to trap Tywin in the West while it happens. 

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1 hour ago, Chancho said:

Agree with most of the post and i truly never understood why nothing was shared with Edmure... I guess it's a last minute plan that they come up with things shaping up with the last updates of info they got, it's the ONLY reason i can think.

They don't tell Edmure for the same reason they don't tell every single man in the army - it shouldn't be necessary.  They give him orders to hold Riverrun.  Not the Riverlands, not to stop Tywin, but to hold Riverrun.  That is it.  To read more into those orders is to exceed the mandate of those orders.  If the President tells his generals he wants to make sure no enemy forces land on American soil, and they immediately launch a full scale war against Syria, have they obeyed their orders or exceeded them?  The answer to that is clear.  If Robb had said "defend my interests and your land" then that is open to interpretation.  But the order was to defend a single, specifically named castle.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, cpg2016 said:

Sorry, i'm take a beating of the new interface.

 

1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

Sorry, i'm take a beating of the new interface.

 

1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

Edmure plans also fails.

“Yes, but once the castle falls, Lord Tywin will have no safe retreat. My own levies will defend the fords of Red Fork against his crossing. If he attacks across the river, he’ll end as Rhaegar did when he tried to cross the Trident. If he holds back, he’ll be caught between Riverrun and Harrenhal, and when Robb returns from the west we can finish him for good and all.”

He failed to kill Tywin, Tywin wasn't traped between the armies since he was able to march to Kings Landing and Edmure also didn't knwo how long would took for Robb to came back from the West.  

True, i have not a ideia who was this army Edmure tought would stop their passage heading South or king's landing. Maybe he tought Tyrell would join the party too... He had to know if Tywin was retreating, destination had to be King's Landing.

But you still believe if Edmure let them pass there will not be battle Robb x Tywin? Tywin wouldn't have squat, he had to won that one, to bargain something.

Edited by Chancho

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1 hour ago, cpg2016 said:

They don't tell Edmure for the same reason they don't tell every single man in the army - it shouldn't be necessary.  They give him orders to hold Riverrun.  Not the Riverlands, not to stop Tywin, but to hold Riverrun.  That is it.  To read more into those orders is to exceed the mandate of those orders.  If the President tells his generals he wants to make sure no enemy forces land on American soil, and they immediately launch a full scale war against Syria, have they obeyed their orders or exceeded them?  The answer to that is clear.  If Robb had said "defend my interests and your land" then that is open to interpretation.  But the order was to defend a single, specifically named castle. 

Edmure is no any man, so that's not it ( He commands the biggest army of the king at that point )... Commanders have to improvise too, or they are useless if they can't react to nothing... How is Edmure supose to know they are counting with Tywin going to King's Landing or Westerlands, if they don't tell him... There is this massive army going to get the king's back when he is there sacking the west...
So just tell him before you left "We are going to try to lure Tywin.", it was that simple, easy to put the blame on him, i still think he saved Robb's ass.

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3 minutes ago, Chancho said:

True, i have not a ideia who was this army Edmure tought would stop their passage heading South or king's landing. Maybe he tought Tyrell would join the party too... He had to know if Tywin was retreating, destination had to be King's Landing.

 But you still believe if Edmure let them pass there will not be battle Robb x Tywin? Tywin wouldn't have squat, he had to won that one, to bargain something.

Yes, I don't think it would came to battle if Stannis still takes KL.

Tywin was always carefull, and atacking a fortified position doesn't suit him. There would be also no point in fighting Robb after KL falls other than pride. I doubt that Tywin would declare for Stannis after he kills all his close kin.

To Stannis, Tywin is a traitor that needs to be punish and Tywin has no reason to fight Robb since that he's no longer hold the Iron Throne.

Tywin would made peace on Robb's terms because he would need strength to fight/negotiate with Stannis. If Tywin doens't have strenght Stannis could just march on him, take his lands, titles and destroy house Lannister.

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Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, Chancho said:

 Edmure is no any man, so that's not it ( He commands the biggest army of the king at that point )... Commanders have to improvise too, or they are useless if they can't react to nothing... How is Edmure supose to know they are counting with Tywin going to King's Landing or Westerlands, if they don't tell him... There is this massive army going to get the king's back when he is there sacking the west...
 So just tell him before you left "We are going to try to lure Tywin.", it was that simple, easy to put the blame on him, i still think he saved Robb's ass.

No he didn't. Edmure send his lords to take back their lands and Robb didn't know that Edmure was reuniting his forces back since that as Edmure points out Robb was on the field and couldn't be reached.

Edmure never informed Robb about Tywin marching West not he even tried to. If he was so worried about his king he should have at least tryied some contact in case things went worse and Tywin goes through him.

Edited by Arthur Peres
typo error

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Just realize something now.

The fact that Robb couldn't be reached is a plothole? 

Robb was taking castles in the west, they know what castles are taken, and are probably with northem a garrison to ocupy it. They could send a raven right?

Maege Mormont is taking the cattle of the Westerlands to the Riverlands, they could send a mensager for Robb through her right?

 

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Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, Chancho said:

So just tell him before you left "We are going to try to lure Tywin.", it was that simple, easy to put the blame on him, i still think he saved Robb's ass.

When Robb left the Riverlands there was no plan to lure Tywin west , the plan to lure Tywin west only developed after the battle of Oxcross was such a massive success and they realized that they could pretty much have free run of the Westerlands and found a place that they thought they could ambush Tywin . As for him saving Robb's ass that's simply not true . If Edmure does not stop Tywin then Tywin would have probably heard about Stannis attacking Kings Landing when he got into the Westerlands and would have made a desperate attempt to get to Kings Landing . That's when Edmure should have attacked him with Robb coming up from behind him . 

Edited by Blackfish Tully

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Posted (edited)
On 5/10/2018 at 6:27 PM, Chancho said:

Edmure is no any man, so that's not it ( He commands the biggest army of the king at that point )... Commanders have to improvise too, or they are useless if they can't react to nothing... How is Edmure supose to know they are counting with Tywin going to King's Landing or Westerlands, if they don't tell him... There is this massive army going to get the king's back when he is there sacking the west...
So just tell him before you left "We are going to try to lure Tywin.", it was that simple, easy to put the blame on him, i still think he saved Robb's ass.

There isn't any arguing with the highly specific orders Edmure was given.  Additionally, Edmure knows that Robb's force is entirely cavalry, because he would have been there when they rode out, and therefore should know Robb is in no real danger.

But this is all moot. We know why Edmure fights Tywin - he lampshades it himself.  He wants glory.  He sees Robb winning victory after victory, all after he was repeatedly humiliated militarily.  That's it.  He has a history of making bad military decisions for good moral reasons (allowing his lords to disperse to defend their lands against raids, allowing his people into Riverrun despite it being a terrible idea), and this is one of them, except he mixes it in with his own glory-hunting, and the results are disastrous.  Yes, he's trying to protect his lands, but he's also doing it because Westerosi nobles are a military caste and winning battles gains social prestige, which Edmure sorely wants.  These both contribute to why he disobeys a direct order.

Edited by cpg2016

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Posted (edited)
On ‎5‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 9:30 AM, Blackfish Tully said:

I quoted wrong, sorry.

 

24 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

There isn't any arguing with the highly specific orders Edmure was given.  Additionally, Edmure knows that Robb's force is entirely cavalry, because he would have been there when they rode out, and therefore should know Robb is in no real danger.

I have no doubt Edmure wanting to get some glory and get some blood "back" from Lannisters played a huge part.

This Robb is at no danger that i don't understand, there is enemy castles every direction, he can't just run forever, he will bump at unfriendly castles in no time... He can't go in circles because of the terrain too.

How would Edmure not be worried there is a 4x times bigger army going after his king to fight him in home soil... Edmure is desperate to get some military success, but how can someone tell this guy who took the smallfolk in his castle and let the men defend their own land, wasn't worried about a bigger army going after his king, i mean any commander would be worried, he took action... How smart would be to let his king get trapped at enemy land going agaisnt a bigger army.

Edited by Chancho

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On ‎5‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 4:49 PM, cpg2016 said:

They don't tell Edmure for the same reason they don't tell every single man in the army - it shouldn't be necessary.  They give him orders to hold Riverrun.  Not the Riverlands, not to stop Tywin, but to hold Riverrun.  That is it.  To read more into those orders is to exceed the mandate of those orders.  If the President tells his generals he wants to make sure no enemy forces land on American soil, and they immediately launch a full scale war against Syria, have they obeyed their orders or exceeded them?  The answer to that is clear.  If Robb had said "defend my interests and your land" then that is open to interpretation.  But the order was to defend a single, specifically named castle.

That is a ridiculous comparison.  If the President tells the military to make sure no enemy forces land on American soil, than the Navy and air force will attack them at sea before they land or even when they are still loading up transports if they feel they have the element of surprise, and they will not have exceeded their mandate.

Any competent commander defending Riverrun would defend the fords because they are an easily defensible position.

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17 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

That is a ridiculous comparison.  If the President tells the military to make sure no enemy forces land on American soil, than the Navy and air force will attack them at sea before they land or even when they are still loading up transports if they feel they have the element of surprise, and they will not have exceeded their mandate.

Any competent commander defending Riverrun would defend the fords because they are an easily defensible position.

the problem with this argument is the fact that Tywin was actually crossing the fords to leave the Riverlands so Riverrun is in no danger and in fact would be in less danger with Tywin in the Westerlands as opposed to Harrenhall . Like the previous poster stated Edmure made it pretty clear that his reason for attacking Tywin was for revenge and  he did not mention anywhere that defending Riverrun or protecting Robb was his goal. . If either one of those was his objective would he not have said as much to Cat who is Robb's mother and is in Riverrun at that time ? 

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1 hour ago, Blackfish Tully said:

the problem with this argument is the fact that Tywin was actually crossing the fords to leave the Riverlands so Riverrun is in no danger and in fact would be in less danger with Tywin in the Westerlands as opposed to Harrenhall . Like the previous poster stated Edmure made it pretty clear that his reason for attacking Tywin was for revenge and  he did not mention anywhere that defending Riverrun or protecting Robb was his goal. . If either one of those was his objective would he not have said as much to Cat who is Robb's mother and is in Riverrun at that time ? 

Edmures objectives can be debated, and so can the result of him letting Tywin through.  I'm inclined to say Robb would've been fucked.

My objection in my previous post was the ridiculousness of comparing defending the fords to invading another country.  While you are right in that the fact that his entire army was trying to cross means he wasn't attacking Riverrun, he was still invading lands directly controlled by Riverrun, and Edmure certainly didn't invade the Westerlands, which would've made the comparison accurate.

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5 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

the problem with this argument is the fact that Tywin was actually crossing the fords to leave the Riverlands so Riverrun is in no danger and in fact would be in less danger with Tywin in the Westerlands as opposed to Harrenhall . Like the previous poster stated Edmure made it pretty clear that his reason for attacking Tywin was for revenge and  he did not mention anywhere that defending Riverrun or protecting Robb was his goal. . If either one of those was his objective would he not have said as much to Cat who is Robb's mother and is in Riverrun at that time ? 

It's not like everyone was feeling like hearing Edmure version of the story, Catelyn was on his ass about every little thing he did, Robb and Brynden were so conviced he blow everything that couldn't even hear he talk...

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4 minutes ago, Chancho said:

 It's not like everyone was feeling like hearing Edmure version of the story, Catelyn was on his ass about every little thing he did, Robb and Brynden were so conviced he blow everything that couldn't even hear he talk...

Catelyn points out that Edmure is risking battle with half of Tywin's numbers when he doesn't need to. It is reasonable for her to be worried, even more when you consider that the last time Edmure tried something he ended up as prisoner of the Kingslayer. Edmure is also filling the castle with more mouths to feed when they could be very soon facing siege. Not a great plan. Catelyn can't see the big picture either, but it's clear that he is messing things up.

Edmure points out his plan with his reasons to her, but he never mentions helping Robb, he even expects Robb to help him trap Tywin in the Riverlands, even though he tell us that he can't reach Robb.

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In all likelihood he did. The odds were significantly against Robb even before he got himself injured and bedridden taking the Crag. 

  • Tywin's 20k, 7k of which was mounted giving him the advantage in both men and horse
  • The remnants of Stafford's host under the command of Daven at Lannissport( at least a thousand)
  • The remnants of Jaime's host under the command of Prester Forley at the Golden Tooth
  • The garrisons of the castles of the the Westerlands
  • A superior knowledge of the terrain
  • Being able to get supplies from the settlements of the Westerland nobles while Robb' host would have to either forage or steal it slowing them down. 

While nothing in war is a sure thing, as Robb could never have predicted himself getting injured when taking the poorly defended Crag proves, Tywin would have been in the stronger position. Edmore likely saved his life. 

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2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

In all likelihood he did. The odds were significantly against Robb even before he got himself injured and bedridden taking the Crag. 

  • Tywin's 20k, 7k of which was mounted giving him the advantage in both men and horse
  • The remnants of Stafford's host under the command of Daven at Lannissport( at least a thousand)
  • The remnants of Jaime's host under the command of Prester Forley at the Golden Tooth
  • The garrisons of the castles of the the Westerlands
  • A superior knowledge of the terrain
  • Being able to get supplies from the settlements of the Westerland nobles while Robb' host would have to either forage or steal it slowing them down. 

While nothing in war is a sure thing, as Robb could never have predicted himself getting injured when taking the poorly defended Crag proves, Tywin would have been in the stronger position. Edmore likely saved his life. 

those are all good points and definitely advantages for Tywin but Robb would also have some advantages . 

1. time is on Robb's side . Tywin has to finish Robb and cross back across the Riverlands to get back and protect Kings Landing from Stannis . Tywin has to try and force Robb into a battle as soon as possible and that may lead to him blundering into a trap

2. Blackfish , there is probably not a better leader of scouts in Westeros and so far he has been flawless in getting the right information and the right plans to  get Robb where he needed to be to defeat the Lannisters . He and his scouts have had a couple of months to scout the Westerlands and prepare his plans . 

3. Robb has a more mobile force , Tywin's 20K mix of infantry and knights would not be able to move as fast as Robb's 6K mounted troops . Robb has had 2 months to plunder the Westerlands so his troops would be fully provisioned and there may not be much left over for the Westerland armies . 

I guess it all depends on how much you trust Blackfish to know what he's talking about when it comes to warfare 

"We were all horsed," Ser Brynden said. "The Lannister host was mainly foot. We planned to run Lord Tywin a merry chase up and down the coast, then slip behind him to take up a strong defensive position athwart the gold road, at a place my scouts had found where the ground would have been greatly in our favor. If he had come at us there, he would have paid a grievous price. But if he did not attack, he would have been trapped in the west, a thousand leagues from where he needed to be. All the while we would have lived off his land, instead of him living off ours."

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On 5/10/2018 at 7:30 PM, Arthur Peres said:

Just realize something now.

The fact that Robb couldn't be reached is a plothole? 

Robb was taking castles in the west, they know what castles are taken, and are probably with northem a garrison to ocupy it. They could send a raven right?

Maege Mormont is taking the cattle of the Westerlands to the Riverlands, they could send a mensager for Robb through her right?

 

not 100% sure how the whole raven thing works but since most ravens can only go to one castle and there are dozens of castles in Westeros not every castle will have ravens that can go to every other castle so there may not be a raven in the Riverlands that can go to Ashemark or the Crag and there may not be any that can go from those castles to the Riverlands. The smaller castles may only have ravens that can go to the other castles in the same area and also to Kings Landing , the Citadel , Lannisport and Casterly Rock but i could be completely wrong about that .  

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21 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

those are all good points and definitely advantages for Tywin but Robb would also have some advantages . 

1. time is on Robb's side .

Not once he got injured at the Crag it was not. War is unpredictable and nether Robb or the Blackfish knew when, or even if, Tywin would come West. Nor did he realize he would be bedridden and out of action taking the Crag around the same time as Tywin was heading West. He was incredibly lucky that Edmure stopped him when he did, just as Tywin was. Edmure did them both a favor. 

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