Jump to content

Recommended Posts

The evidence seems circumstantial at best.

But some people may just want another reason to hate Rorge. I am not one of them. I hated that character plenty.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Kandrax said:

Do you think that Rorge killed Yoren?

Does it matter who dealt Yoren’s death blow? I would think that the pertinent question is why the men/solders’ are looking to retrieve King Bob’s bastard son that was quietly in service to Tobho Mott for so many years.

What was it ole Yoren told Arya early in book two:

A Clash of Kings - Arya I     "Here's something you don't know. It wasn't supposed to happen like it did. I was set to leave, wagons bought and loaded, and a man comes with a boy for me, and a purse of coin, and a message, never mind who it's from. Lord Eddard's to take the black, he says to me, wait, he'll be going with you. Why d'you think I was there? Only something went queer."/

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think narratively it would only matter if Arya suspected it--that she had released Yoren's killer. That could have been accomplished by having Arya recognize the axe. That woulda been another brick in the wall for sure. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Kandrax said:

Do you think that Rorge killed Yoren?

Here is a theory

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Yoren/Theories

a big problem is this: given the POV structure, how would we find out?  Yoren is dead, Rorge is dead, Amory Lorch is dead, Biter is dead, and I don't think anybody else is going to be talking about it.  This isn't real life.  If it ain't written, it never happened.

6 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Maybe, but it doesn't matter. Yoren died to advance Arya's story  

This.   With questions like this one, it is useful to ask: What is the author trying to accomplish, and is there any point in a hidden agenda?  In this case, there really isn't.  Yoren's death is simply a means of moving the story forward.  If the identity of his killer was going to matter, it already would have.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Literal stuff is interesting, but I have a couple of thoughts on a figurative interpretation, for what it's worth.

I think everyone who comes out of the dungeon at the Red Keep is the embodiment of some past person from Targaryen history. I include in this Ilyn Payne, Rennifer Longwaters and Rugen.

Tentatively, I believe that Jaqen H'ghar, Rorge and Biter are symbolic representatives of Aegor Rivers, known as Bittersteel. I've just started to piece this together so I admit that evidence is a bit thin. H'ghar and Rorge sound like variations on Aegor. Biter sounds like Bitter. Back in the day, Bittersteel was supposed to be sent to the Wall to take the black, but he escaped. We know that Rorge and Biter will eventually be killed by Brienne and Gendry. Brienne is a representative of Ser Duncan the Tall, who championed Aegon V against Blackfyre enemies. Gendry might represent House Baratheon, represented by the Laughing Storm in the Trial of Seven in The Hedge Knight novella. So it seems possible that GRRM would use a parallel to show descendants of Ser Duncan and Lyonel Baratheon teaming up again to take down reincarnations of Bittersteel.

Now someone just has to defeat Jaqen.

But what would "Bittersteel" (or his symbolic descendants) have against Yoren? I'm not sure at all, so maybe this doesn't provide support for the OP. I see parallels between Yoren and Qhorin - the rhyming names, the Night's Watch, the (apparent) respect for House Stark, the secret smuggling of Stark kids. There is a character in Jon's arc called The Norrey, head of a mountain clan -- I don't know if GRRM is playing around with Yoren and Norrey as a parallel. Maybe we will know more if we see the character appear again. I have a suspicion that (through wordplay) The Norrey is the embodiment of The North, or maybe an echo of Thorren Stark (which might be the same thing as the embodiment of The North). When we see the next Dunk & Egg stories, maybe we will learn whether Bittersteel had a motive to want to "murder" the North.

Edit: I forgot to mention that Yoren is a real advocate for street kids from Flea Bottom. He reminds Arya that the boys in the wagon train don't have fathers and punishes her for beating up Hot Pie. This sympathy for Flea Bottom orphans could be a parallel to one of the characters who protects Dunk - he was also an orphan from Flea Bottom.

As for the axe, I would say that the Craster murder might be worth examining as a parallel. I realize that Craster has his throat slashed and Jeor Mormont is stabbed in the belly - neither man dies from a blow with an axe. But Mormont had just given Craster an axe and it is picked up by his murderers and reappears in the scene where the direwolf kills and eats some of the mutineers.

Another memorable axe is in the scene where Asha reveals to Theon that she is not Esgred, demonstrating that an axe is her husband and a dirk is her suckling babe. Because the throwing of the axe seems to be the "wedding ceremony," I wonder whether there is a symbolic wedding between Jeor and Craster, as well as between Arya and the Rorge / Biter / Jaqen three-headed group.

Edited by Seams

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Now the real question is did Yoren get all of his charges killed by not just opening the damn gate. Was Amory enough of an SOB to kill everyone within the walls? Of course he was, because he tried to when Yoren wouldn't let  him in. Now would he have if Yoren had opened the gate? Probably not. Best case he goes in, says f*** it and leaves. Worst case he goes in, takes everyone prisoner until they get to Harrenhal, at which point Yoren talks to Tywin and Tywin lets him proceed to the wall.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The axe can be a very symbolic gift, if not the single most symbolic gift in European folk lore. This is clearly not in Arya's head at the time and it may be advantageous to suggest any of the men in the burning wagon considered it a true 'gift' in any traditional sense; they're seconds away from burning alive and were eager to escape.
  We already know that the consequences of Arya throwing the axe into the burning wagon have been explored by the author. All three men go on to impact the story in their own way. Adding Yoren's tragic death to it.... it just get's lost in ambiguity, I think. 

And ultimately, what does it change? Yoren was doomed to die there and it wouldn't surprise readers to learn that Rorge killed Yoren to win favor with the attackers. Simultaneously, we are also aware of the fact that these guys are big. and strong. And violent. You want these people fighting for you. So it's perfectly reasonable that these men were spared for service based entirely on their 'credentials'. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think it matters who killed Yoren.

I think what matters is that Yoren got involved in the politics of the realm. I don't recall if he knew who Gendry was and I don't think he did, but he sure knew who Arya was and took a big risk when he decided to take her out of King's Landing. He refused to give Gendry up saying he belonged to the Watch, which fair enough, I guess, if that was what he really believed, but Gendry hadn't take his vows yet. 

I think this is what Yoren's story was about in the end. He says the Night's Watch takes no part, but he did take part. I think Yoren was a small foreshadowing of what was going to go down at the Wall with Jon.

Edited by Widow's Watch

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/9/2018 at 4:05 PM, Clegane'sPup said:

Does it matter who dealt Yoren’s death blow? I would think that the pertinent question is why the men/solders’ are looking to retrieve King Bob’s bastard son that was quietly in service to Tobho Mott for so many years.

What was it ole Yoren told Arya early in book two:

A Clash of Kings - Arya I     "Here's something you don't know. It wasn't supposed to happen like it did. I was set to leave, wagons bought and loaded, and a man comes with a boy for me, and a purse of coin, and a message, never mind who it's from. Lord Eddard's to take the black, he says to me, wait, he'll be going with you. Why d'you think I was there? Only something went queer."/

 

Well the soldiers are clearly there because Cersei/Joffrey (I cannot remember whom) wants all of King Bobby's bastards killed.  My best guess is that Varys wanted Gendry alive so Stannis could point to him as evidence of twincest and help throw the realm into chaos to pave the way for fAegon, and Littlefinger helped Cersei/Joffrey figure out where they could get Gendry to bring him back.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

Well the soldiers are clearly there because Cersei/Joffrey (I cannot remember whom) wants all of King Bobby's bastards killed.  My best guess is that Varys wanted Gendry alive so Stannis could point to him as evidence of twincest and help throw the realm into chaos to pave the way for fAegon, and Littlefinger helped Cersei/Joffrey figure out where they could get Gendry to bring him back.

Varys didn't even need Gendry to prove that Cersei's kids weren't Roberts.  They already had a perfectly good acknowledged highborn bastard in Edric Storm who was already living in the Stormlands.  And I doubt Gendry will prove useful to any of Varys's schemes when he is at the Wall considering the Wall is mostly isolated and few people go there. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

Well the soldiers are clearly there because Cersei/Joffrey (I cannot remember whom) wants all of King Bobby's bastards killed.  My best guess is that Varys wanted Gendry alive so Stannis could point to him as evidence of twincest and help throw the realm into chaos to pave the way for fAegon, and Littlefinger helped Cersei/Joffrey figure out where they could get Gendry to bring him back.

Stannis had someone a million times better than Gendry and that'd Edric Storm. Edric and Mya are Robert's two acknowledged bastards. Gendry doesn't mean squat to Stannis. 

All in all, though, if Ned's life had been spared and he was allowed to take the black as it had been agreed upon, he and Gendry would have been traveling to the Wall together. So it's possible that Varys had entirely different plans for Gendry. I'm not even sure Ned was supposed to make it to the Wall.

Edited by Widow's Watch

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Varys saved Gendry since he saw no reason he should die only for being Robert's bastard son. 

Anyway, I don't care whether those recruits said the words or not. It's not an everyday thing to kill recruits for the Night's Watch. Legalizing Yoren's murder is legalizing the Lannister criminal regime and Joffrey/Cersei's psychopathic tendencies. That being said, it's irrelevant whether Rorge personally killed Yoren or it was one of Amory Lorch's men. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/9/2018 at 5:23 AM, Kandrax said:

Do you think that Rorge killed Yoren?

Here is a theory

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Yoren/Theories

While staying in an abandoned holdfast overnight, the group of recruits led by Yoren comes under attack by a group of men led by Ser Amory Lorch. Amory commands Yoren to open the gate of the holdfast, but Yoren refuses, pointing out that the Night's Watch takes no part in the war. Amory orders his men to storm the holdfast and kill all those inside. Although they manage to hold for a while, Yoren comes to the realization that they are losing and while the fire starts spreading tells Arya Stark to get as many of the recruits as possible and escape through a tunnel they encountered earlier.[1] Yoren stays behind and is found dead by Arya and Gendry the next day.[2]Due to his manner of death, some readers have come to suspect that Yoren did not die at the hands of Ser Amory's men, but rather at the hands of the criminal Rorge, who Yoren had been bringing to the Wall.

 

On 5/9/2018 at 10:35 PM, Seams said:

I think everyone who comes out of the dungeon at the Red Keep is the embodiment of some past person from Targaryen history. I include in this Ilyn Payne, Rennifer Longwaters and Rugen.

Tentatively, I believe that Jaqen H'ghar, Rorge and Biter are symbolic representatives of Aegor Rivers, known as Bittersteel. ... Biter sounds like Bitter. Back in the day, Bittersteel was supposed to be sent to the Wall to take the black, but he escaped. ...

But what would "Bittersteel" (or his symbolic descendants) have against Yoren?

I'm still interested in the question in the OP about the nature of Yoren's death.

The more I think about it, the more I think that Yoren's death is a parallel to the death of Qhorin Halfhand, the Night's Watch ranger who leads Jon Snow through a tunnel in a mountain. Qhorin orders Jon to do everything the wildlings tell him to do in order to persuade the wildlings that Jon wants to turn his cloak against the Night's Watch. That apparent "betrayal" of Qhorin by Jon Snow would fit with the idea that Yoren was killed by one of his own NW recruits (although Rorge hadn't volunteered and hadn't yet taken his vows).

I think the Rorge / Aegor connection might also be correct. Bran is being mentored by Bloodraven as he explores his powers as a greenseer. Jon Snow has never met Bittersteel but there is at least one little detail that tells us his mentor suspects he might be connected to Bittersteel:

"If truth be told, we expected you to do just as you did." Mormont tried a plum, spit out the pit. "I ordered a watch kept over you. You were seen leaving. If your brothers had not fetched you back, you would have been taken along the way, and not by friends. Unless you have a horse with wings like a raven. Do you?"

"No." Jon felt like a fool.

"Pity, we could use a horse like that."

(AGoT, Jon IX)

Bittersteel's personal sigil was a horse with wings. The plum Mormont is eating is also a signal that we are talking about Targaryens; possibly even as narrow a Targaryen topic as Bloodraven.

The man who orders Jon to kill Qhorin is Rattleshirt, known as the Lord of Bones. Rattleshirt wears a giant's skull as a helmet. In ADwD, we will learn that Aegor Rivers ordered the men of his sellsword company to preserve his skull and carry it with them when they return one day to retake Westeros. We will also see Jon Snow become the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch and open the door to allow the wildlings to come south of the Wall and settle there. The settling of the wildlings isn't the same as a sellsword invasion, but some members of the Night's Watch see it as a betrayal that places too much trust in a traditional enemy of the NW and of people who live south of the Wall.

This doesn't mean that Jon Snow is the exact equivalent of either Bittersteel or of Rorge. I think it does mean that GRRM is setting up a really good example of the unreliable narrator or, more accurately, of a narrator who sees his own actions as good and reasonable and his enemy's actions as bad and selfish. The reader knows that Qhorin sacrificed himself deliberately, telling Jon Snow to kill him in order to convince the wildlings of his desertion. We also understand why Jon first participates in combat to repel a wildling invasion at Castle Black and then to does a 180 and allows the wildlings to peacefully enter the Night's Watch lands. But others see Jon as a turncloak and a misguided or evil person who must be stopped.

We don't see a similar set-up for Yoren's death as we saw for Qhorin, although he does seem to be sacrificing himself to save Arya and the other recruits. Arya is not Yoren's killer or a turncloak (until she wears the Bolton sigil on her tunic?) but, if you're right that Rorge killed Yoren, he does seem like a natural-born killer and would be a good example of someone who apparently joins Yoren's enemy.

If this is correct and GRRM wants us to compare the fates of the rhyming Yoren and Qhorin, I might throw in another rhyming name: Selaesori Qhoran. This ship was delivering Tyrion (and Penny and Jorah) to one place but is unable to complete its journey. Its figurehead loses an arm in a storm (Qhorin has lost half a hand). Another interesting detail: Bennaro predicts that the Selaesori Qhoran will not reach its destination. I think there is a string of uncle Bens (Benjen, Brown Ben Plumm, etc.) and maybe Bennaro is part of that group. If the comparison is correct, it would make sense to have a symbolic Benjen in the Selaesori Qhoran arc, given the close relationship between the missions of Benjen Stark and Qhorin Halfhand.

Sitting in the water without an effective crew or sails, the ship is essentially dead. It is overrun by pirate-slavers who force Tyrion and his companions to take on new identities as slaves, similar to Jon Snow taking on a wildling identity and Arya / Rorge becoming turncloaks.

So the identity of the person who killed Yoren may matter a lot: it could lead us to some important parallel stories that foreshadow a future conflict between Bran (Bloodraven) and Jon (Bittersteel) or reveal details about other major players such as Tyrion and Ser Jorah. We know how Rorge will die. Will Jon Snow or Tyrion or Ser Jorah have a similar end?

Edited by Seams

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

Well the soldiers are clearly there because Cersei/Joffrey (I cannot remember whom) wants all of King Bobby's bastards killed. 

It was Cersei, and Lorch attacked NW not because of that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Widow's Watch @goldenmaps understood about Edric Storm, but Stannis was aware of Gendry - he and Jon Arryn had been to see him, and Varys knew this (as did LF) and collecting as many bastards as possible helps prove Stannis' claim.  I'm just searching for an explanation to @Clegane'sPup question about the man who came to Yoren with coin for Gendry and told him to wait for Ned.  That man has to be Varys, so what possible explanation would there be for Varys to want to save Gendry?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/9/2018 at 8:41 AM, Lucius Lovejoy said:

Well the soldiers are clearly there because Cersei/Joffrey (I cannot remember whom) wants all of King Bobby's bastards killed.  My best guess is that Varys wanted Gendry alive so Stannis could point to him as evidence of twincest and help throw the realm into chaos to pave the way for fAegon, and Littlefinger helped Cersei/Joffrey figure out where they could get Gendry to bring him back.

Varys wanted to cause total war in the realm, and he wanted to pit Stark, Baratheon and Lannister against each other. Sending Gendry away could have been an act of Kindness, Mercy, a way to stymie Stannis to delay war, or to get him north to to keep proof to the Starks in the hopes of getting Ned to break his promise to join the watch. Varys wanted everyone to fight each other, but later. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/9/2018 at 2:09 PM, TheThreeEyedCow said:

And ultimately, what does it change? Yoren was doomed to die there and it wouldn't surprise readers to learn that Rorge killed Yoren to win favor with the attackers. Simultaneously, we are also aware of the fact that these guys are big. and strong. And violent. You want these people fighting for you. So it's perfectly reasonable that these men were spared for service based entirely on their 'credentials'. 

 

On 6/9/2018 at 2:49 PM, Widow's Watch said:

I don't think it matters who killed Yoren.

Yoren was the one who took Rorge, Jaqen and Biter from Black cells, so he probably knew some their backstory. If they or one of them had something to hide they didn't want Yoren to fall in Amory's hands alive.

Yoren also was the one who knew Arya's identity. There are theories about FM being after Arya from King's Landing, in that case they wanted to keep her from being captured by Lannisters.

 

On 5/10/2018 at 5:35 AM, Seams said:

Tentatively, I believe that Jaqen H'ghar, Rorge and Biter are symbolic representatives of Aegor Rivers, known as Bittersteel. I've just started to piece this together so I admit that evidence is a bit thin. H'ghar and Rorge sound like variations on Aegor. Biter sounds like Bitter. Back in the day, Bittersteel was supposed to be sent to the Wall to take the black, but he escaped. We know that Rorge and Biter will eventually be killed by Brienne and Gendry. Brienne is a representative of Ser Duncan the Tall, who championed Aegon V against Blackfyre enemies. Gendry might represent House Baratheon, represented by the Laughing Storm in the Trial of Seven in The Hedge Knight novella. So it seems possible that GRRM would use a parallel to show descendants of Ser Duncan and Lyonel Baratheon teaming up again to take down reincarnations of Bittersteel. 

This is very interesting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×