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House Targaryen, the First Family of ASOIAF


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6 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Mine too.  I would like to see both continents under Daenerys Targaryen's rule.  

It is not an unlikely development if she ends up controlling all the Dothraki. With them, she could conquer not only Westeros but Essos as well. And the anti-slavery movement would quickly die if it didn't reach a critical mass and remained in her hands for quite some time (or in the hands of somebody who believed in her vision).

And since the Essosi are threatened as much by the Others and another Long Night as the Westerosi chances are not that bad that they will all be in that fight together.

8 hours ago, Nowy Tends said:

No it is not, unless one reads only Daenery's POV chapters. There's a "I" in ASOIAF, for "Ice". It's not ASODragonsAF.

Dany isn't the only Targaryen POV in the story. Jon Snow is another Targaryen main character, and Tyrion Lannister is most likely Tyrion Hill, a Targaryen bastard.

That would make the three main characters in the series Targaryens to some degree (although two of them would also have a Stark and a Lannister 'half', which is also fitting considering that the Starks and Lannisters are clearly the second and third most important house/group of characters in the series).

In addition, we have a legitimized Targaryen bastard at the heart of the story in Lord Bloodraven, we have Prince Aegon coming in as a major player in the second half of the series, we had Maester Aemon in four books, etc. 

There is a Second Dance of the Dragons coming, and we won't see the Starks or Lannisters playing at being king anymore. Winter has come, and the morons are dead.

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1 hour ago, Light a wight tonight said:

If the story is about Danaerys becoming ruler, woe to Planetos. She's proven herself to be incompetent at that, though she's a very good general. Fire and blood, yes, planting trees, no.

Really, other Houses get as much time in the narration as the Targs do. Arya alone has nearly as many chapters as Dany. The Targs sat at King's Landing for 300 years? That makes them newcomers in Westeros. The Starks ruled the North for, what, 8000?

The Targaryens are the star family of the story and Daenerys is the primary protagonists of the novels.  The original post is correct.  So much of The World of Ice and Fire was devoted to the Targaryens.  The novella, The Rogue Prince was about the Targaryens.  This upcoming book is supposed to be about them.  

7 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Mine too.  I would like to see both continents under Daenerys Targaryen's rule.  

The Baratheon rule and the War of the Five Idiots (Robb, Stannis, Balon, Joff, and Renly) have really made a mess of things.  The Targaryens left behind a full treasury and now the realm is indebted to the Iron Bank.  Stannis and even the Wall are now indebted to the Iron Bank.  The Lord Commander just fucked up and got the NW mixed up in politics.  The Dornish are plotting war.  Euron is making trouble.  It is time for a Targaryen Restoration led by Daenerys.  

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3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 

Dany isn't the only Targaryen POV in the story. Jon Snow is another Targaryen main character, and Tyrion Lannister is most likely Tyrion Hill, a Targaryen bastard.

 

 

Of course Jon isn't full Targ; he's as much Stark by blood and was raised at Winterfell by Ned. He looks like a Stark and shares their values.

It's actually quite unlikely that Tyrion is not Tywin's son. The case for it is exceedingly weak. If Tywin had suspected that was the case Tyrion would not have outlived Joanna. He'd have been smothered. 

 

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8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Dany isn't the only Targaryen POV in the story. Jon Snow is another Targaryen main character, and Tyrion Lannister is most likely Tyrion Hill, a Targaryen bastard.
 

I don't believe one second Tyrion is a Targaryen.

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5 hours ago, Light a wight tonight said:

Of course Jon isn't full Targ; he's as much Stark by blood and was raised at Winterfell by Ned. He looks like a Stark and shares their values.

Even if this was true - and it isn't, since Jon Snow was raised as a Stark bastard, not a Stark (and as a Stark descendant through the female line he is as much a Stark as Robb is a Tully, Shireen and Samwell are Florents, or the Baratheon brothers are Estermonts) - then Jon Snow is still a Targaryen through his father, especially if his parents happened to have been married. This is a patriarchal society, after all-

5 hours ago, Light a wight tonight said:

It's actually quite unlikely that Tyrion is not Tywin's son. The case for it is exceedingly weak. If Tywin had suspected that was the case Tyrion would not have outlived Joanna. He'd have been smothered. 

The case is pretty strong, actually, and it gets stronger and stronger as the series progresses. But be that as it may, even if it happened that Tyrion wasn't a Targaryen bastard - which wouldn't be the same as him being a Targaryen prince, mind you - then it is still clear that House Targaryen is represented with at least two major POVs, and it is going to dominate the second half of the series to a very high degree insofar as the story will focus on Prince Aegon, Dany, Jon, and the machinations of another Targaryen, Brynden Rivers, who is teaching Brandon Stark to do what he is doing.

It would have been so easy to make the last greenseer some former Stark Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, no? Some ancient great-great-great-granduncle of Bran's. But George knew from the start that this guy would be some Targaryen bastard.

That doesn't mean the other guys won't play a role, of course. But it is the dragon people the prophecy of the promised prince refers to, not the Starks, Lannisters, Tullys, Tyrells, or Martells. I mean, if you take the insane amount of Greyjoy POVs - Theon, Asha, Aeron, and Victarion - one could get the impression they are the most important people in the series.

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1 hour ago, Agent Orange said:

All of those dick heads already failed.  Let them stay dead.  I don't like any of them.

 

An other great contribution to the discussion. btw, why do you read these books since so many characters are insufferable for you?

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Just to clarify something, Brynden Bloodraven Targaryen Rivers (sorry, slipped my mind that BR turned down the Targ name) was never developed specifically as a Targaryen bastard. Firstly, George has written this white-haired, red-eyed, all knowing entity many times over, and they are usually directly associated with the "hero" Jon type character in the respective story, and always in opposition to the "fire" elements of the story.

Apparently George said Bloodraven was "tied" to the Targaryens, but no specifics or a how. The connection seems to be through the oft-used open/poly-amorous relationship Aegon IV had with Melissa Blackwood. Brynden Rivers is also a person of ice and fire. This makes Bloodraven a "bastard", and a "mixed mutt", and he seems to have chosen to drink from the cup o'ice rather than fire (just to drive LFDL crazy :cheers:), because all of his traits- mystical and physical- are old gods connected. It makes sense that George would once again send an ice &fire "mutt" to help Jon, who is "mixed breed" himself, since George once said, "Jon Snow is the truest character--I like his sense of realism and the way he copes with his bastardy," and George said we humans should all be "mutts and mongrels."

At the 1:32ish mark.

 

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I actually do think that the Targs are important to the series but I also think that the main Targ line won't survive the series.  I think that the only reason that the Targs survived the Doom of Valyria is to fight the Night King.  I also think that the Prince that was Promised will be Dany or Dany's child.  But I also think that the Prince that was Promised will be the sacrifice needed to end the Long Night. 

And i can't see Dany ruling Westeros.  i don't think that the Westerosi people would be all that accepting about the dragons and the Dothraki and Unsullied armies.  The Westerosi might see her as a foreigner coming with her foreign army.  And we have seen the Dothraki army rape and pillage.  They don't have good PR which will reflect on her.  I actually think that Illyrio brokered the marriage between Dany and Drogo because of the bad reputation the Dothraki have.  And the dragons are magnificent but they might not be controllable.  Or they can be a perception that they are not controllable.  Dragons can cause a lot of damage and I think that many people would always fear them.

If Winter is Coming and food is scarce i doubt that the Westerosi would want to feed dragons and a foreign army.  I doubt that the Westerosi cares about Dany freeing Essosi slaves especially if they are cold and starving.  I doubt that many Westerosi care about her birthright. 

Dany doesn't have much support in Westeros.  There were valid reasons on why the Targ dynasty was deposed in the first place.  And Dany's ruthless actions while valid can be used against her.  I think it will be easy for the Lannisters or the Tyrells to paint her as a Mad Queen especially if the dragons hurt anybody (accidentally or not).  The Lannisters and the Tyrells would want to keep the power that they have since the Targ dynasty was deposed.  The Tyrells also have the added benefit of giving food to the smallfolk.  And her killing the slave masters while I think was valid won't help her cause and it can be turned against her.

I like Dany and she really does want to help people.  And I like her belief in herself.  She does need to take into account that the Westerosi people might not want her as a ruler.  She can't brush aside what their perceptions might be.  She will be seen as a foreign conqueror not as somebody fighting for her birthright.  If she uses her dragons or the Dothraki in battle, that might not get people on her side and might even backfire on her. 

 

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4 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Just to clarify something, Brynden Bloodraven Targaryen Rivers (sorry, slipped my mind that BR turned down the Targ name) was never developed specifically as a Targaryen bastard.

Sure, that's what he is. He is the bastard son of a Targaryen king. He also happens to be an albino which likely marked him for a greenseer and all but he is as much developed as a Targaryen bastard as Edric Storm is developed as a Baratheon bastard, or Ramsay Snow is developed as a Bolton bastard.

That a crucial part of his identity. He may be other things as well, but he is also a legitimized Targaryen bastard. And George wanted the three-eyed crow to be such a guy. Not some Stark uncle, wildling wizard, or sage of the Children of the Forest. He wanted it to be a Targaryen bastard. Just as he made a Targaryen prince the maester at Castle Black (and not some Stark uncle). There is a pattern there.

And just to be clear, his looks do not determine his identity. You don't have to have silver-gold hair and purple eyes to be a Targaryen - as Baelor Breakspear, Daeron the Drunk, Duncan the Small, Rhaenyra's elder sons, or Jon Snow (and his half-sister, Rhaenys Targaryen) prove.

4 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Apparently George said Bloodraven was "tied" to the Targaryens, but no specifics or a how.

That implies that what George knew always - unless he lied to Elio or kept things from him (which is possible but I'd say not all that likely) - is that the three-eyed crow had a Targaryen connection. The whole Blackwood thing is secondary. Perhaps even the idea that the tree man is going to physically look like a weirwood tree was a later addition. After all, Bloodraven the character was only developed after George had written THK, but the three-eyed crow existed since AGoT.

4 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

The connection seems to be through the oft-used open/poly-amorous relationship Aegon IV had with Melissa Blackwood. Brynden Rivers is also a person of ice and fire. This makes Bloodraven a "bastard", and a "mixed mutt", and he seems to have chosen to drink from the cup o'ice rather than fire (just to drive LFDL crazy :cheers:), because all of his traits- mystical and physical- are old gods connected.

Bloodraven (or the Children of the Forest or the First Men in general) have no connection to ice. They might have a connection to nature - to forests, plants, animals, stones, earth, etc. - but there is no indication that any of these people has a meaningful connection to ice.

The Starks have a reputation of being icy, but they don't ride ice dragons nor do they have icy blue eyes like the Others, or anything of that sort.

It is shoehorning things into the story to claim that people who have pretty much nothing to do with ice have something to do with that element. Even the Starks do not rule ice and winter, they just survive it. They can survive in cold temperatures but they do not control them.

The Targaryens, on the other, do ride and control fire made flesh. That is a difference. A pretty big difference.

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I’ll get to the other part later when I am at my computer. 

As to this... 

Quote

The Targaryens, on the other, do ride and control fire made flesh. That is a difference. A pretty big difference.

Most of them keep trying, and of those they keep failing. It takes something different and they don’t all have it, despite the inbreeding. 

But you are correct in this to the degree that Dany is a necromancer who brought the dead back to life by a combo fire and blood magic and used baby Rhaego as the spark of life. She instinctually figured it out.

The story isn’t over for the north/Starks, just like we do not have true and accurate history of them because of “who” wrote the tales. If you think there is no magic in the north, I have a duplicitous bridge to sell you. 

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18 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Most of them keep trying, and of those they keep failing. It takes something different and they don’t all have it, despite the inbreeding. 

Last time I looked, there were quite a few Valyrian dragonlords, Targaryens among them, in the past of this world, a couple of Targaryen dragonriders in Westeros whose names and history and dragons we actually know pretty well.

Quote

But you are correct in this to the degree that Dany is a necromancer who brought the dead back to life by a combo fire and blood magic and used baby Rhaego as the spark of life. She instinctually figured it out.

Rhaego was the sacrifice for Drogo, not the dragons. At least not directly - symbolically one could make a case that Viserys III, Rhaego, and Drogo were the sacrifices necessary to get Dany three dragons instead of one (as is also reflected by the names of the dragons). It was Drogo's spirit who hatched the dragon eggs with his phantom whip. One assumes as a final farewell gift to the moon of his life, and indicating that the death of Drogo (as Dany's Nissa Nissa) was the crucial sacrifice there.

But that's all interpretation.

Quote

The story isn’t over for the north/Starks, just like we do not have true and accurate history of them because of “who” wrote the tales. If you think there is no magic in the north, I have a duplicitous bridge to sell you. 

Nobody said there is no magic in the North - the Others are in the North, too, and their magical powers are both icy and strong - I just pointed out that the Children, First Men, greenseers, skinchangers, wildlings, etc. have no obvious magical connection to ice.

This story is broader than just ice and fire, and not all magic has to be (or is connected) to those elements.

Nor is there a reason to assume that just because the Valyrian dragonlords (and the Targaryens as the last representatives of that group) have a certain magical talent running in their blood that this has to be the case for every other sorcerer.

Oh, and before I forget it:

Bloodraven is using a glamor back in TMK (if we assume he is Ser Maynard Plumm), and we know that's a magical thing many magical tradition can master - for instance, the Faceless Men know how to work glamors as does Melisandre.

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22 minutes ago, goldenmaps said:

I actually do think that the Targs are important to the series but I also think that the main Targ line won't survive the series.  I think that the only reason that the Targs survived the Doom of Valyria is to fight the Night King.  I also think that the Prince that was Promised will be Dany or Dany's child.  But I also think that the Prince that was Promised will be the sacrifice needed to end the Long Night. 

And i can't see Dany ruling Westeros.  i don't think that the Westerosi people would be all that accepting about the dragons and the Dothraki and Unsullied armies.  The Westerosi might see her as a foreigner coming with her foreign army.  And we have seen the Dothraki army rape and pillage.  They don't have good PR which will reflect on her.  I actually think that Illyrio brokered the marriage between Dany and Drogo because of the bad reputation the Dothraki have.  And the dragons are magnificent but they might not be controllable.  Or they can be a perception that they are not controllable.  Dragons can cause a lot of damage and I think that many people would always fear them.

If Winter is Coming and food is scarce i doubt that the Westerosi would want to feed dragons and a foreign army.  I doubt that the Westerosi cares about Dany freeing Essosi slaves especially if they are cold and starving.  I doubt that many Westerosi care about her birthright. 

Dany doesn't have much support in Westeros.  There were valid reasons on why the Targ dynasty was deposed in the first place.  And Dany's ruthless actions while valid can be used against her.  I think it will be easy for the Lannisters or the Tyrells to paint her as a Mad Queen especially if the dragons hurt anybody (accidentally or not).  The Lannisters and the Tyrells would want to keep the power that they have since the Targ dynasty was deposed.  The Tyrells also have the added benefit of giving food to the smallfolk.  And her killing the slave masters while I think was valid won't help her cause and it can be turned against her.

I like Dany and she really does want to help people.  And I like her belief in herself.  She does need to take into account that the Westerosi people might not want her as a ruler.  She can't brush aside what their perceptions might be.  She will be seen as a foreign conqueror not as somebody fighting for her birthright.  If she uses her dragons or the Dothraki in battle, that might not get people on her side and might even backfire on her. 

 

You make good points, yet still I think if she ever decides to take Westeros, she probably will. And not because she is a good ruler, she clearly isn't that. But for a conqueror, she has a potential.

The current regime ruling Westeros is getting weaker all the time. The competent wing from the Lannister-Tyrell coalition is crippled. Tywin, Kevan, Tyrion are gone. Jaime, who got smarter and more competent lately, happens not to be around, and I believe it's not a coincidence. Olenna Tyrell is not invested in Cersei, and recent events with Margaery and all will make her pissed as hell. 

Daenerys has dragons, and this is not a factor which will make her beloved, but it will make her feared. Aegon also had dragons. Westerosi weren't sold on him, he just took the continent with the help of dragons. 

Her biggest obstacle, in my opinion, might be Euron Greyjoy. Euron is ambitious, competent, and dangerous. But whether Victarion dies or not, his faction of the Ironborn forces will probably side with Daenerys. 

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Just now, The Sunland Lord said:

You make good points, yet still I think if she ever decides to take Westeros, she probably will. And not because she is a good ruler, she clearly isn't that. But for a conqueror, she has a potential.

i agree.  If she takes Westeros it will be as a conqueror.  I think the Westerosi perception of her won't be good no matter what her intentions are.   If one Dothraki steals or rapes someone there is no good way in spinning that in her favor. 

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14 minutes ago, goldenmaps said:

i agree.  If she takes Westeros it will be as a conqueror.  I think the Westerosi perception of her won't be good no matter what her intentions are.   If one Dothraki steals or rapes someone there is no good way in spinning that in her favor. 

The overall problem with that take is that Westeros is already ripe for a Targaryen restoration - and we know there will be a Second Dance of the Dragons, so it is likely that Aegon and Daenerys will fight it out. While it is very likely that a majority of the lords might stick to Aegon first, rejecting the idea of a female monarch as well as readily believing the stories she is a savage madwoman, etc., it is also rather likely that her dragons and her large armies will eventually win her support in Westeros. For instance, Sam, Marwyn and his gang apparently figured out that Dany is the savior - meaning that those guys are likely going to try to convince important people to join rather than oppose Daenerys when she finally arrives. Others may have other reason to support her against Aegon, etc.

But then - resistance against Daenerys is pretty much only an academic possibility. The morons (Aegon, Euron, Stannis, Roose, Cersei, Littlefinger, etc.) will continue to bleed Westeros until nobody is going to have a decent chance to stand against Dany's forces once they finally arrive. At least not after they have properly landed (the best chance to deal her a major blow would be to attack her armada at sea).

There is a limit to the capabilities of medieval society to wage war. You don't wage war in winter. And Dany is not going to show up in the first months of winter. She might only appear in the second year of winter.

Whoever wants to resist Dany is not going to have an easy time assembling levies and knights to his banner - not necessarily because they love Daenerys and want her to rule, but simply because they have had enough of war and are not willing (or not longer capable) to fight.

There is also literally no point in giving Dany armies and then having her lose them before the final battle against the Others. She may have some losses - as they all do - but if she ended up recruiting all the Dothraki to her cause they won't just magically disappear. And while winter might cause a problem for them (although not so much of a problem, most likely, considering that Vaes Dothrak is not exactly the southernmost place of Essos) it will also be a problem for Dany's Westerosi opposition.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Last time I looked, there were quite a few Valyrian dragonlords, Targaryens among them, in the past of this world, a couple of Targaryen dragonriders in Westeros whose names and history and dragons we actually know pretty well.

Rhaego was the sacrifice for Drogo, not the dragons. At least not directly - symbolically one could make a case that Viserys III, Rhaego, and Drogo were the sacrifices necessary to get Dany three dragons instead of one (as is also reflected by the names of the dragons). It was Drogo's spirit who hatched the dragon eggs with his phantom whip. One assumes as a final farewell gift to the moon of his life, and indicating that the death of Drogo (as Dany's Nissa Nissa) was the crucial sacrifice there.

But that's all interpretation.

Nobody said there is no magic in the North - the Others are in the North, too, and their magical powers are both icy and strong - I just pointed out that the Children, First Men, greenseers, skinchangers, wildlings, etc. have no obvious magical connection to ice.

This story is broader than just ice and fire, and not all magic has to be (or is connected) to those elements.

Nor is there a reason to assume that just because the Valyrian dragonlords (and the Targaryens as the last representatives of that group) have a certain magical talent running in their blood that this has to be the case for every other sorcerer.

Oh, and before I forget it:

Bloodraven is using a glamor back in TMK (if we assume he is Ser Maynard Plumm), and we know that's a magical thing many magical tradition can master - for instance, the Faceless Men know how to work glamors as does Melisandre.

Dany was prepping her eggs with Rhaego’s soul/life force back when she was still pregnant and was holding the eggs to her belly. There was a transference there. 

But, I just found out that there is a carnival in town and I love riding the spinning rides, so, catch up with you later. :cheers:

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2 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Dany was prepping her eggs with Rhaego’s soul/life force back when she was still pregnant and was holding the eggs to her belly. There was a transference there. 

How do you know that? Can you give us a quote supporting this view of yours?

And again - reread the last chapter of the book - it is Drogo's spirit who hatches the dragon eggs. That is actually on the pages of the books. There is nothing about strange essence transfer taking place in the books.

What we do know is that Mirri Maz Duur very much implies that Rhaego was the sacrifice to save Khal Drogo from death (or bring him back with his brains fried) - and she also tries to make us and Dany believe that she, Dany, made that choice.

The spell trying to save Drogo had nothing to do with dragon eggs or a desire for dragons. It was all about Dany choosing her beloved sun-and-stars over her unborn son which caused her to call upon Mirri's help, and then Mirri worked the spell.

Daenerys had nothing to do with it.

In fact, it is even pretty clear that only Dany's conversation with Mirri after the spell caused her to reach her intuitive understanding on how such spells may work.

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