House Targaryen, the First Family of ASOIAF

[kissdbyfire]

First family as in a 'funny' analogy of some sort? Like Targs are the 1st Family, just as the most powerful country on Earth has a 1st family? If so, given that we now live in 'Trump Times', I find the analogy quite apt. 

Dany will make Westeros great again! /s

But the truth is, if we're talking about lineages that are several thousand years old, the Targs are the newcomers. Powerful, yes, no dispute there. Still, newcomers.  

[Lord Varys]

5 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

But the truth is, if we're talking about lineages that are several thousand years old, the Targs are the newcomers. Powerful, yes, no dispute there. Still, newcomers.  

They could be as old as the Starks, if Valyria was founded after the Long Night and the Targaryens were among the founding dragonlords. After all, we still have no good data how long ago the Long Night was, and Valyria is so 5,000+ years old, apparently.

How long people hang out in Westeros has no bearing on the age of their lineage.

[Shi Qiang]

On 5/11/2018 at 3:03 AM, 867-5309 said:

A good portion of TWOIAF is devoted to the Targaryens.  GM's upcoming book is about the history of the Targaryens.  The main character of the current time period in the story is Daenerys Targaryen.  House Targaryen is the only member of the ruling class to survive the Doom of Valyria.   They are my favorite family.  The timely dream from Daenys and a father having faith in his daughter saved the family from doom.  I don't know if we will see a New Valyria but it is something I want to happen.  Dany will have control of a good portion of Essos if she can win over the Dothraki.  Volantis is practically hers for the taking.  A New Valyria built on a foundation of freedom instead of slavery.  I would like to see that happen.  Dany ruling in the East.  Aegon/Griff ruling in the West.  

The Targaryens are the most important family in the novels.  No doubt about that. 

The rise of a new empire "built on a foundation of freedom instead of slavery" could become Dany's crowning achievement.  Nobody is in a position to end slavery and I don't think anyone else is motivated to help the slaves except Dany.  She is the only proven monarch whose lineage can be traced back to one of the ruling families of the Freehold.  I hope she decides to make a claim for all of the lands that once belonged to the Freehold and rule over as its Empress.  I don't really care about what happens to Westeros.  I don't have a problem if Aegon/Young Griff wants the Iron Throne.  Essos is bigger and a more developed continent that I find more interesting.  

[Shi Qiang]

22 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

First family as in a 'funny' analogy of some sort? Like Targs are the 1st Family, just as the most powerful country on Earth has a 1st family? If so, given that we now live in 'Trump Times', I find the analogy quite apt. 

Dany will make Westeros great again! /s

But the truth is, if we're talking about lineages that are several thousand years old, the Targs are the newcomers. Powerful, yes, no dispute there. Still, newcomers.  

The Targaryens are the most important family in the story.  Their history is enough to have a major portion of TWOIAF devoted to them.  And if the theory holds true that the Targaryens can trace their lineage back to the rulers of the Great Empire of the Dawn, then that makes them royalty right from the start.  

I don't think Jon Snow is a Targaryen.   

[The Fattest Leech]

45 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

How do you know that? Can you give us a quote supporting this view of yours?

And again - reread the last chapter of the book - it is Drogo's spirit who hatches the dragon eggs. That is actually on the pages of the books. There is nothing about strange essence transfer taking place in the books.

What we do know is that Mirri Maz Duur very much implies that Rhaego was the sacrifice to save Khal Drogo from death (or bring him back with his brains fried) - and she also tries to make us and Dany believe that she, Dany, made that choice.

The spell trying to save Drogo had nothing to do with dragon eggs or a desire for dragons. It was all about Dany choosing her beloved sun-and-stars over her unborn son which caused her to call upon Mirri's help, and then Mirri worked the spell.

Daenerys had nothing to do with it.

In fact, it is even pretty clear that only Dany's conversation with Mirri after the spell caused her to reach her intuitive understanding on how such spells may work.

 

48 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

How do you know that? Can you give us a quote supporting this view of yours?

And again - reread the last chapter of the book - it is Drogo's spirit who hatches the dragon eggs. That is actually on the pages of the books. There is nothing about strange essence transfer taking place in the books.

What we do know is that Mirri Maz Duur very much implies that Rhaego was the sacrifice to save Khal Drogo from death (or bring him back with his brains fried) - and she also tries to make us and Dany believe that she, Dany, made that choice.

The spell trying to save Drogo had nothing to do with dragon eggs or a desire for dragons. It was all about Dany choosing her beloved sun-and-stars over her unborn son which caused her to call upon Mirri's help, and then Mirri worked the spell.

Daenerys had nothing to do with it.

In fact, it is even pretty clear that only Dany's conversation with Mirri after the spell caused her to reach her intuitive understanding on how such spells may work.

The whole death scene of Rhaego is almost an exact retelling of Dante wedding to Drogo. The first set up for Dany giving the soul of her human baby to her dragon babies starts in chapter 4. 

Maybe I’ll reply in detail later, but read that chapter to start. I’m having fun at the moment. 

[kissdbyfire]

9 minutes ago, Allardyce said:

I don't think Jon Snow is a Targaryen

And what's that got to do w/ the price of tea in China? Fuck all, that's what. 

Regardless, I will say that I wish w/ all my heart I could bring myself to agree w/ you here. Sadly for both of us, the chances of Jon not being Rhaegar's son are negligible. 

[Shi Qiang]

1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

And what's that got to do w/ the price of tea in China? Fuck all, that's what. 

Regardless, I will say that I wish w/ all my heart I could bring myself to agree w/ you here. Sadly for both of us, the chances of Jon not being Rhaegar's son are negligible. 

I think the chances are better that he's not a Targaryen.  

[Ralphis Baratheon]

3 hours ago, Allardyce said:

I think the chances are better that he's not a Targaryen.  

I don't think noble Ned had it in him to sleep with a woman he wasn't married too, especially if he was already married. If Bob couldn't get him to chase after women with him in the Vale, then I doubt anyone could persuade him to at any other time. 

 

[Only 89 selfies today]

On 5/11/2018 at 9:15 PM, Tour De Force said:

The Targaryens are the star family of the story and Daenerys is the primary protagonists of the novels.  The original post is correct.  So much of The World of Ice and Fire was devoted to the Targaryens.  The novella, The Rogue Prince was about the Targaryens.  This upcoming book is supposed to be about them.  

The Baratheon rule and the War of the Five Idiots (Robb, Stannis, Balon, Joff, and Renly) have really made a mess of things.  The Targaryens left behind a full treasury and now the realm is indebted to the Iron Bank.  Stannis and even the Wall are now indebted to the Iron Bank.  The Lord Commander just fucked up and got the NW mixed up in politics.  The Dornish are plotting war.  Euron is making trouble.  It is time for a Targaryen Restoration led by Daenerys.  

The near future will play out similar to Aegon's Conquest.  Before the Targaryens, nobody in Westeros could control the Ironborn.  Black Harren controlled the riverlands and forced the people to labor on his castle.  It took Aegon and his dragon to put an end to his reign.  Euron is Black Harren this time around.  

[Only 89 selfies today]

6 hours ago, Allardyce said:

The Targaryens are the most important family in the story.  Their history is enough to have a major portion of TWOIAF devoted to them.  And if the theory holds true that the Targaryens can trace their lineage back to the rulers of the Great Empire of the Dawn, then that makes them royalty right from the start.  

I don't think Jon Snow is a Targaryen.   

 

6 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

And what's that got to do w/ the price of tea in China? Fuck all, that's what. 

Regardless, I will say that I wish w/ all my heart I could bring myself to agree w/ you here. Sadly for both of us, the chances of Jon not being Rhaegar's son are negligible. 

 

6 hours ago, Allardyce said:

I think the chances are better that he's not a Targaryen.  

Jon is more than likely a bastard of Ned Stark.  

2 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

I don't think noble Ned had it in him to sleep with a woman he wasn't married too, especially if he was already married. If Bob couldn't get him to chase after women with him in the Vale, then I doubt anyone could persuade him to at any other time. 

 

I disagree with you.  Ned was a young man once and it was war.  It's inexcusable but Ned is not perfect.  He very easily could have bonked the fisherman's daughter, but most probably Ashara.  

[Lord Varys]

11 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

The whole death scene of Rhaego is almost an exact retelling of Dante wedding to Drogo. The first set up for Dany giving the soul of her human baby to her dragon babies starts in chapter 4. 

Maybe I’ll reply in detail later, but read that chapter to start. I’m having fun at the moment. 

You really don't have to unless you can support your ideas there with some actual quotes by George R. R. Martin. Clutching dragon eggs doesn't mean people transfer souls. There is no textual evidence even so much as hinting something of that sort.

It is also pretty clear that Dany doesn't want to be carried in that tent when she is. And that actually indicates that Rhaego may have lived and Drogo may have returned with fried brains if they had Dany not carried in that tent. Because the hints in the actual text written by GRRM indicate that it was the demons/spirits in the tent summoned by Mirri who ruined/killed Rhaego in the womb.

Anything else means you ignore and/or twists crucial portions of the text.

5 hours ago, Only 89 selfies today said:

Euron is Black Harren this time around.  

Euron is much, much worse than Harwyn Hardhand or Black Harren.

[Frey Kings]

On 5/11/2018 at 11:10 AM, Lord Varys said:

It is the obvious conclusion from the way Westeros was populated by the First Men. They came into the land via the unbroken Arm of Dorne, and thus they would have first settled in Dorne and the Reach and the Stormlands, before they continued into the West, the Riverlands, the Vale, and the North.

We don't have any numbers on this, but the first settlements and ringforts at Starfall and Oldtown may have existed long before there even were First Men in the Vale or the North, say.

And thus they may have been the first 'lords' and 'petty kings' down there long before there was any human population farther up north.

the sword DAWN, is far superior than any sword made by bronze

 

just sayin'

[Nowy Tends]

3 hours ago, Frey Kings said:

the sword DAWN, is far superior than any sword made by bronze

In weaponry anything made from iron ore is superior than bronze. What's the relation with the First Men settlements?

[Darth Sidious]

5 hours ago, Frey Kings said:

the sword DAWN, is far superior than any sword made by bronze

 

just sayin'

It is superior but it does no good if the material, supposedly made from a falling star, is not available.  

[Light a wight tonight]

20 hours ago, Allardyce said:

I don't think Jon Snow is a Targaryen.   

First, if Jon's mother was a fisherman's daughter there would be no reason for him to be raised at Winterfell among the Stark kids. Send Mom a couple of gold dragons a year for his upkeep, no problem. If he was Ashara's son he could be raised by the Daynes. So there has to be a reason he's at Winterfell, and being Lyanna's son is a good reason. And with whom was Lyanna intimate? The Rhae-man, who else?

[Light a wight tonight]

What we're looking at here is a basic divide on what the story is about. Is it control of Westeros and the Iron Throne or is it about Winter and the Others? If it's the latter the Targaryens are an interesting footnote unless they can contribute to protecting the realms of men from the threat of the White Walkers, and at the moment they are blissfully unaware of that.

[Damsel in Distress]

6 hours ago, Light a wight tonight said:

What we're looking at here is a basic divide on what the story is about. Is it control of Westeros and the Iron Throne or is it about Winter and the Others? If it's the latter the Targaryens are an interesting footnote unless they can contribute to protecting the realms of men from the threat of the White Walkers, and at the moment they are blissfully unaware of that.

Daenerys Targaryen and her family are more important than all of Westeros.  Their significance is greater than the kingdom they built.  Their time ruling in Westeros is only a chapter in the long history of the Targaryen family.  There are chapters before and there can be many more even if Westeros dies.  The kingdom could fall to the White Walkers and the Targaryens can still build an empire somewhere else.  Should Westeros fall it will be the other families like the Starks who will become footnotes.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

21 hours ago, Only 89 selfies today said:

I disagree with you.  Ned was a young man once and it was war.  It's inexcusable but Ned is not perfect.  He very easily could have bonked the fisherman's daughter, but most probably Ashara. 

Had Ned dishonored Ashara, then killed her brother, then finally took the child away from her causing her to kill herself I doubt the Daynes would be naming children after Eddard Stark like they did with Ned Dayne. Also I think Ned would be sparing a few more thoughts about how wrong he did Ashara. Also why wouldn't Ned tell Jon who his mother was before he joined the Night's Watch if it was Ashara?

If any Stark got with Ashara I'm inclined to believe if was Brandon Stark, we know he had no qualms about sleeping with highborn women who he had no intention of marrying. He always was much more charming and handsome then Ned and more likely to get the beautiful Ashara Dayne. Like her stalker Barristan Selmy said, young women want fire and not mud. Brandon Stark was fire and poor Ned was mud. It was almost like Barristan was speaking of past experiences. Plus if Ned didn't even have the courage to ask her for a dance, how would he have it in him to sleep with her out of wedlock? So I have to disagree with you.

[Light a wight tonight]

1 hour ago, Damsel in Distress said:

Daenerys Targaryen and her family are more important than all of Westeros.  Their significance is greater than the kingdom they built.  Their time ruling in Westeros is only a chapter in the long history of the Targaryen family.  There are chapters before and there can be many more even if Westeros dies.  The kingdom could fall to the White Walkers and the Targaryens can still build an empire somewhere else.  Should Westeros fall it will be the other families like the Starks who will become footnotes.

Consider this: there's one known live Targ, whose fertility is questionable, and whose administrative ability doesn't rise to that level. Not much basis for a dynasty. And why would we want the family of Baelor the Blessed, Maegor the Cruel, and Aerys the Mad running things anywhere on Planetos? 

[Bowen 747]

On 5/11/2018 at 3:03 AM, 867-5309 said:

A good portion of TWOIAF is devoted to the Targaryens.  GM's upcoming book is about the history of the Targaryens.  The main character of the current time period in the story is Daenerys Targaryen.  House Targaryen is the only member of the ruling class to survive the Doom of Valyria.   They are my favorite family.  The timely dream from Daenys and a father having faith in his daughter saved the family from doom.  I don't know if we will see a New Valyria but it is something I want to happen.  Dany will have control of a good portion of Essos if she can win over the Dothraki.  Volantis is practically hers for the taking.  A New Valyria built on a foundation of freedom instead of slavery.  I would like to see that happen.  Dany ruling in the East.  Aegon/Griff ruling in the West.