Greywater Watch

[Rondo]

Greywater Watch is hard to find.  I don't remember reading a good description of this keep.  But living in the swamps and its constant dampness.  You would think Greyscale would be common among the crannogmen.  

Grey water is waste water.  Is this the inspiration for the name or Grey Water station in one of Martin's short stories?  

I would like to learn more about the feud between the river lords and the crannogmen.  A land dispute or something else.

The Reeds brought frogs to the Starks.  If you were Bran, would you sample the frogs?  It is the courteous gesture.  I'm almost positive Ned would.  Bran tasted worse through Summer but that was later when he had to face hunger.  This is not about hunger but about diplomacy.  

[Faera]

Oh, boy! If there is one group of people that I would truly like to find out more about, it's the Crannogmen and especially the Reeds of Greywater Watch. I want to know how they came to be the ruling house after the defeat of the Marsh king, why are they so loyal to House Stark and what knowledge do they possess. Jojen said as good as said they have hidden great knowledge among his people:

"The secrets of the old gods," said Jojen Reed. Food and fire and rest had helped restore him after the ordeals of their journey, but he seemed sadder now, sullen, with a weary, haunted look about the eyes. "Truths the First Men knew, forgotten now in Winterfell … but not in the wet wild. We live closer to the green in our bogs and crannogs, and we remember. Earth and water, soil and stone, oaks and elms and willows, they were here before us all and will still remain when we are gone."

So, they live close with nature and have a more immense connection with it. It might explain why Jojen likens his sister Meera's abilities so much with nature, staying so still she seems to disappear, having sharper ears and eyes, and being swift. There is a sense that being intune with your surroundings is a big thing for them.

Greywater Watch is built on an artificial, man-made island (a crannog) and can be moved as and where Howland needs it to be. As they live in marshland, depending on the season and time, he might migrate it dependant on where water and wildlife are. I also think I read somewhere that some of the towers of Greywater Watch can be detached from the main "castle" (which I imagine is made of wood or some other light material, since it won't have a stone foundation being built on a crannog), perhaps suggesting that there are smaller crannogs attached to the main one where the larger "hall" or "holdfast" is located.

The idea that no one can find Greywater Watch indicates perhaps that only crannogmen know what its rotations are. At different points of the year - or seasons - there might be several places where Greywater Watch patrols. Additionally, Jojen states at some point that there are trees far taller than Queenstower and Meera states they are numerous enough to be right next to each other, not allowing someone standing on top of one to "feel like a giant". This indicates to me that Greywater Watch can also hide among the waterlogged groves of trees and that it is relatively common for crannogmen to climb to the treetops to keep a look out for trespassers -- perhaps even having more stationary "crow's nests" in trees where Greywater Watch usually frequently. This is all just speculation, though.

Also, it is worth noting that grey water isn't waste in the sense that black water is (i.e. contaminated with fecal matter). It's more like... bathwater. Obviously, the crannogmen don't have washing machines or sinks but the name "Greywater Watch" indicates that it was first built - or patrols - areas where humans exist: where they clean their clothes, bathe and wash their hair. It also probably contains a lot of organic waste from plants and oils. Either way, the "grey water" where Greywater Watch "hangs out" is some place the crannogmen keep separate from whatever springs they get their drinking water from and which ever river the lion lizards hang out in.

11 hours ago, Tour De Force said:

Greywater Watch is hard to find.  I don't remember reading a good description of this keep.  But living in the swamps and its constant dampness.  You would think Greyscale would be common among the crannogmen.  

It is possible though it seems the illness that affects them there is "greywater fever", which is the illness Jojen almost died of. A part of me wonders if perhaps living in the wet wilds would have helped the crannogmen develop an immunity to illnesses like greyscale, which are also heavily associated with water. There is also supposed to be a lot of rare herbs and plants that grow in the Neck (I think its mentioned offhandedly in the World book, but I'd need to find the quote) so they might have a surprisingly sophisticated knowledge of medicine. Something they would need since they don't have maesters.

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I would like to learn more about the feud between the river lords and the crannogmen.  A land dispute or something else.

 

I think a large portion of the hostility is that when the first Freys built the crossing, the northern side of tje bridge directly borders into the Neck and Reed territory. Together with the Freys extracting tolls fairs to anyone who wishes to cross their bridge, you can understand why this would irritate the crannogmen. Meera also hints that the Freys have repeatedly tried to locate Greywater Watch and conquer it, so it really does sound like it is a genuine turf war with the Freys constantly trying to keep hold of the land north of the river and the crannogmen constantly kicking their men out. The Freys' slurs about crannogmen is that "don't fight like decent folk" -- this is because the crannogmen use guerilla tactics to defend their own lands and the causeway while the Freys presumably follow more Andal codes of battle. As the Crannogmen were completely left untouched by the Andals and the culture of knights and combat while the Freys do have knights and the like it's understandable why the two sides might have a personal dislike for each other -- they are culturally at odds as well as territorially. 

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The Reeds brought frogs to the Starks.  If you were Bran, would you sample the frogs?  It is the courteous gesture.  I'm almost positive Ned would.  Bran tasted worse through Summer but that was later when he had to face hunger.  This is not about hunger but about diplomacy.  

 

Well, there are plenty of places in the world that do eat frogs. While I wouldn't eat then ordinarily, I have eaten them before and they aren't all that bad. Bran himself conceeds this when he and Meera make a stew with frogs and fish later.

The Reeds are only able to hunt animals that live in on their -- so frogs, fish, fowl and some mammals. They probably don't farm so much of the herbs and grains they have are probably only grown in gardens or foraged. This is the explanation by the maesters as to why on the whole crannogmen don't grow very big -- a lack of nutrition (presumably protein) in their diet. Ned probably wouldn't object to eating them as a grown man but Bran is only an eight-year-old boy and most kids at eight don't want to eat things they aren't accustomed to. If anything, I think he handled being confronted with frogs very well. Now he's had to eat them, and he's growing up more, I doubt he'll complain as much if the opportunity ever rises again.

[Darth Sidious]

Greywater watch is not a castle built on stone foundation.  I don't have my books with me right now but I seem to recall reading a description of it.  It floats.  

Prejudice runs strong against the crannogmen.  They are a poor people living in the swamps.  House Frey, one of the richest families in all of Westeros and living in one of the better castles, would look down on the swamp people.  But there is more to it than simple prejudice.  It can't be a land dispute because Tully and Stark would have already settled who gets what as the administrators of the Riverland and the north.  Consider it could have started over something minor.  A crannogman killing a Frey retainer hundreds of years ago and the feud grew from there.  Something like that.  Could be the crannogmen harass the people, the Frey customers, crossing the bridge because the traffic scare away the frogs and fishes.  Crannogmen don't have horses and they can cross the river without paying the toll.  That has to irritate the Freys to see a crannogman in his canoe passing underneath their bridge and giving them the finger.  The bridge is large and made of stone.  I would assume it has an impact on the water flow which could have affected the eco system.  

Bran ate wight marrow via Summer.  He should have no trouble holding down fried frog legs.  

[Faera]

48 minutes ago, Agent Orange said:

Greywater watch is not a castle built on stone foundation.  I don't have my books with me right now but I seem to recall reading a description of it.  It floats.  

Prejudice runs strong against the crannogmen.  They are a poor people living in the swamps.  House Frey, one of the richest families in all of Westeros and living in one of the better castles, would look down on the swamp people.  But there is more to it than simple prejudice.  It can't be a land dispute because Tully and Stark would have already settled who gets what as the administrators of the Riverland and the north.  Consider it could have started over something minor.  A crannogman killing a Frey retainer hundreds of years ago and the feud grew from there.  Something like that.  Could be the crannogmen harass the people, the Frey customers, crossing the bridge because the traffic scare away the frogs and fishes.  Crannogmen don't have horses and they can cross the river without paying the toll.  That has to irritate the Freys to see a crannogman in his canoe passing underneath their bridge and giving them the finger.  The bridge is large and made of stone.  I would assume it has an impact on the water flow which could have affected the eco system.  

Bran ate wight marrow via Summer.  He should have no trouble holding down fried frog legs.  

You make a good point. Given the Freys haughtiness and the Reeds and their fellow crannogmen's territorialism, it isn't hard to believe that at some point in the past a blood feud arouse due to each side killing the other. In Meera's story to Bran, she notes that Howland made sure to cross the Green Folk during the night so the Freys wouldn't catch him ("He passed beneath the Twins by night so the Freys would not attack him,") indicating that both sides will take pops at each other if they catch sight of each other. Due to the crannogmen being stealthier than most, it probably is the case more often than not that the Freys are the ones caught in the wrong place at the wrong time than the other way around. At one point, Jojen tells us that the Neck is filled with dead ironborn, Andals, Freys and other knights who had drowned in their armour, indicating that any attempt to take the fight to the crannogmen ended in failure due to them being unable to navigate the marshes. It's incredibly morbid to think of someone sinking into the watery-earth under the weight of their armour and slowly drowning or suffocating.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

I think crannogman realize most of Westeros is filled with petty stupid people so they want to distance themselves from them in all possible ways. The Reeds only seem to concern themselves with series issues. 

[The Fattest Leech]

1 hour ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

I think crannogman realize most of Westeros is filled with petty stupid people so they want to distance themselves from them in all possible ways. The Reeds only seem to concern themselves with series issues. 

Yup. More so "the powers that be" are the most ignorant of all. The Crannogmen are the down to earth ones.

[Shi Qiang]

9 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

I think crannogman realize most of Westeros is filled with petty stupid people so they want to distance themselves from them in all possible ways. The Reeds only seem to concern themselves with series issues. 

Or they're just not ambitious enough to play the game.  Different values, different priorities.  Perhaps they're content to live in the bogs and do not desire castles.  

11 hours ago, Agent Orange said:

Greywater watch is not a castle built on stone foundation.  I don't have my books with me right now but I seem to recall reading a description of it.  It floats.  

Prejudice runs strong against the crannogmen.  They are a poor people living in the swamps.  House Frey, one of the richest families in all of Westeros and living in one of the better castles, would look down on the swamp people.  But there is more to it than simple prejudice.  It can't be a land dispute because Tully and Stark would have already settled who gets what as the administrators of the Riverland and the north.  Consider it could have started over something minor.  A crannogman killing a Frey retainer hundreds of years ago and the feud grew from there.  Something like that.  Could be the crannogmen harass the people, the Frey customers, crossing the bridge because the traffic scare away the frogs and fishes.  Crannogmen don't have horses and they can cross the river without paying the toll.  That has to irritate the Freys to see a crannogman in his canoe passing underneath their bridge and giving them the finger.  The bridge is large and made of stone.  I would assume it has an impact on the water flow which could have affected the eco system.  

Bran ate wight marrow via Summer.  He should have no trouble holding down fried frog legs.  

 

10 hours ago, Faera said:

You make a good point. Given the Freys haughtiness and the Reeds and their fellow crannogmen's territorialism, it isn't hard to believe that at some point in the past a blood feud arouse due to each side killing the other. In Meera's story to Bran, she notes that Howland made sure to cross the Green Folk during the night so the Freys wouldn't catch him ("He passed beneath the Twins by night so the Freys would not attack him,") indicating that both sides will take pops at each other if they catch sight of each other. Due to the crannogmen being stealthier than most, it probably is the case more often than not that the Freys are the ones caught in the wrong place at the wrong time than the other way around. At one point, Jojen tells us that the Neck is filled with dead ironborn, Andals, Freys and other knights who had drowned in their armour, indicating that any attempt to take the fight to the crannogmen ended in failure due to them being unable to navigate the marshes. It's incredibly morbid to think of someone sinking into the watery-earth under the weight of their armour and slowly drowning or suffocating.

Nicely discussed.  The Freys are entrepreneurs who tamed the river with their great bridge.  The crannogman live with nature.  It's not that one is right and the other wrong but I can see where their goals will conflict.   

[Mat92]

I'm curious about this idea that Greywater Watch is able to float around and have parts that detach from itself. Just doesn't seem very stable to me. If it is important enough to have a name, it must be fairly large, although I can't remember if we heard anything about how many crannogmen there are.

I think a large part of the reason they are never found is that their guerrilla warfare puts people off/keeps people out from having the chance to explore the area enough to get your bearings, and being a huge swamp you'd get lost in there even if they didn't kill you first.

Despite everything said about it, I can't help but think that this whole idea of it being so mobile and moving around all the time is either a slight ruse, or is at least highly exaggerated. 

[Only 89 selfies today]

We're just used to thinking of lords living in castles.  A group of huts built on rafts can serve as homes for the crannogs.  Huts and cabins built on reed rafts will float.  

[Faera]

Plus, we can't rule out the use of magic.

If the crannogmen remember all the lost arts of the First Men and historically have always valued magical abilities like green sight, it makes sense that just as magic is woven into the walls of Winterfell or the Wall, it also is a part of Greywater Watch -- and perhaps to an even greater extent.

[Damsel in Distress]

16 hours ago, Faera said:

Plus, we can't rule out the use of magic.

If the crannogmen remember all the lost arts of the First Men and historically have always valued magical abilities like green sight, it makes sense that just as magic is woven into the walls of Winterfell or the Wall, it also is a part of Greywater Watch -- and perhaps to an even greater extent.

The Children are also good at hiding and stealth.  The crannogmen may have similar skills.  Skills like camouflage and covering their tracks.

[Mat92]

17 hours ago, Faera said:

Plus, we can't rule out the use of magic.

Magic in ASOIAF always has a cost to it, and death is pretty much always involved:

Mirri Maz Dur - sacrifices Drogo/Rhago/Drogos horse for the dragons to be born
Thoros - each time Beric dies and he is brought back, more and more of him is lost
Mel - burns the leeches: Robb, Joff and Balon end up dead. Not to mention burning people at the stake.
Eurons horn - the guy who blows it burns up from the inside out. 

Those are just the few most blatant examples we've seen in the book. If Greywater Watch is controlled with magic, then they are sacrificing something, which is why I think it is highly unlikely. 

[Ckram]

54 minutes ago, Mat92 said:

Mel - burns the leeches: Robb, Joff and Balon end up dead

According to the app, it was not magic, it was a scam.

[GallowsKnight]

On 5/13/2018 at 11:53 AM, Mat92 said:

I'm curious about this idea that Greywater Watch is able to float around and have parts that detach from itself. Just doesn't seem very stable to me. If it is important enough to have a name, it must be fairly large, although I can't remember if we heard anything about how many crannogmen there are.

I think a large part of the reason they are never found is that their guerrilla warfare puts people off/keeps people out from having the chance to explore the area enough to get your bearings, and being a huge swamp you'd get lost in there even if they didn't kill you first.

Despite everything said about it, I can't help but think that this whole idea of it being so mobile and moving around all the time is either a slight ruse, or is at least highly exaggerated. 

We have a rough idea starting with the concept of a Crannog. Which is usually an artificial island formation/foritification made by Celts and other tribes. They generally weren't portable. But given they are made of wood not stone it may be easier to build and dismantle them.

My imagining is the Reed have a number of different sized barges and boats they use to move about the Neck. When they stay for a period of time they construct this Crannog (or many Crannogs) with the barges interconnecting. Possibly among some of the waterlogged groves that are mentioned, where they build up into the trees I could imagine the seasons playing a role in this. They might find beat bogs and hot springs to help keep warm in winter, and head to better hunting in summer. They stay there for a few years (the lenght of a season) before packing up and moving.

The changing nature of marshland and the relocation of the Crannog is why Greywater Watch "moves". But it's not moving always. It's probably stationary for years at a time. 

But even if a Frey managed to find it, they could pack up and move/abandon what they can't carry before they could return in force (even if they knew how to which is unlikely).

[867-5309]

On 5/11/2018 at 9:43 PM, Tour De Force said:

Greywater Watch is hard to find.  I don't remember reading a good description of this keep.  But living in the swamps and its constant dampness.  You would think Greyscale would be common among the crannogmen.  

Grey water is waste water.  Is this the inspiration for the name or Grey Water station in one of Martin's short stories?  

I would like to learn more about the feud between the river lords and the crannogmen.  A land dispute or something else.

The Reeds brought frogs to the Starks.  If you were Bran, would you sample the frogs?  It is the courteous gesture.  I'm almost positive Ned would.  Bran tasted worse through Summer but that was later when he had to face hunger.  This is not about hunger but about diplomacy.  

George recycles names and this one came from one of his short stories, the men of greywater station.  

I doubt the Freys and the Reeds even remember what started the dispute.  It looks to be an old disagreement.  

[867-5309]

On 5/13/2018 at 3:02 AM, Only 89 selfies today said:

We're just used to thinking of lords living in castles.  A group of huts built on rafts can serve as homes for the crannogs.  Huts and cabins built on reed rafts will float.  

Yes, this could be the answer.  Floating shacks and hovels made of reeds.  

[OneEyed-Aegon]

They're almost like tribesmen!

[Nowy Tends]

3 hours ago, OneEyed-Aegon said:

They're almost like tribesmen!

Errr… no.

[Rondo]

Thank you all for the comments.  Westeros nobility sees land as property.  The Freys think the river and everything in it, on it, and above it belong to them.  The crannog people may have different opinions on ownership.  Perhaps they think nature is not property to be owned.  That's why they cross the river without paying the toll.  The Freys think its trespassing.  

[The Lord of the Crossing]

It's a difficult terrain to navigate and full of dangerous creatures.  Hard to find from the ground.  Greywater watch won't be hard to find by air though.  Aegon could have found it and made short work of it.