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Avengers: Infinity War II (Not the real II) SPOILERS THREAD


Jeor

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3 hours ago, Jeor said:

Just saw this for the second time in the cinemas. It holds up well second time around - its relentless pace is still there but the edge is taken off since you know how things end up. Some observations:

1. Captain America's first appearance (rescuing Vision/Wanda) is still an awesome moment.

2. Strange's plan is definitely still in play. The time where they almost beat Thanos (and then Quill buggered it up), when he's gloating at Thanos, Quill says it was his plan. So I reckon Strange's plan is still going in the background and they just took a potshot with Quill's plan, when you take into account Strange's earlier speech about not hesitating to sacrifice Tony for the Time stone (which he does a complete 180 turn on after seeing the future), his "We're entering the endgame now" and the "there was no other way" at the end. All amount to Strange still having something in play here.

3. I thought it was instructive to see which guys gave Thanos the most trouble (and how the MCU people wanted to portray each hero vs Thanos). Thor at the end with Stormbreaker had a big moment. But Strange and Stark both had some pretty good moments against him on Titan. Strange held his own in a "magic" sort of battle with Thanos for a while, and then Stark managed to draw blood with some heavy-duty Iron Man moves. Cap had that little moment where Thanos was surprised this human was holding out against him, but if I were to back one hero against Thanos based on how they went in the movie, it would be (in descending order) Thor, Iron Man, Strange.

4. The Infinity Gauntlet at the end was definitely looking a bit broken after Thanos used it. It looked charred and melted when he vanished (after Thor) and it looked the same when he had it at the end looking at the sunrise. I wonder if that will somehow come into play in Avengers 4.

 

2 hours ago, dbunting said:

3. Can't argue with your list but would at Scarlett Witch to it. She was fighting Thanos and trying to help Vision at the same time and held her own pretty well.

4.  There is an interview where the director mentions that Thanos' action when using the full power did damage to it and Thanos himself.

  

 

2 hours ago, polishgenius said:

I'm taking a guess that all the damage will eventually prove to be about is that when it's eventually used to reset the universe it'll disintegrate completely so they don't have to make up excuses for why he doesn't just take the gauntlet again and click it back again.

If it was also damaging to Thanos himself, which isn't clear in the movie, then what will happen is that one of Iron Man or Cap will die from enacting the reboot.

 

1 hour ago, Mosi Mynn said:

As debunting said, Wanda held him at bay with half her power - and both she and Strange got Snapped.  Also, Wanda could use her mind-altering powers on Thanos.  I also think Hulk needs to work through his Thanos issues.

I wonder if they will address how T'Challa getting Snapped affects Wakanda.  Is Shuri Queen?  Will she be challenged?  I don't think she wants to be Queen, and she should be helping Tony, Rocket, Bruce, Thor and Wong figure everything out anyway.  So will M'Baku be King?

 

True, Scarlet Witch deserves lots of cred at the end for doing both the Mind Stone and Thanos.

I think the damage to the gauntlet has to be part of Avengers 4. The gauntlet itself (and stones) will probably have to be destroyed completely at the end so that they can't go back to this storyline. It's served a great purpose in unifying all the various threads of the MCU, I wonder what they're going to do next.

I'm guessing with Wakanda that Shuri might be queen in name, but M'Baku will act as regent or somesuch. There's a thought there might be a bit of a time gap between Infinity War and Avengers 4, so who really knows how they'll do it all. Word on the street is that the original Avengers invasion of NYC is going to come up again, so some sort of time travel will be involved.

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I've seen the time jump rumours too.  I'm intrigued!  I guess they want to show the Avengers undoing the Snap, and it will take some time for them to be in a position to do that, emotionally and resource-wise.  But I do want to see the immediate aftermath too.  I totally trust the writers and the Russos to pull it off.

I've heard rumours that we'll see Cap in an old uniform - which could tie into the invasion of NYC.  Maybe they need the Tesseract?

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I think it would have something to do with Thanos being around during the NYC Invasion. If they can get to Thanos during the NYC invasion (before he has the stones) they could alter the timeline, although I doubt they'd go that far as it would effectively wipe out all the MCU films between Avengers 1 and Avengers 4.

The other resurrection idea is that everyone's trapped in the Soul stone and they can be revived again through that. Red Skull said that the soul stone was unique among the stones in possessing "a certain wisdom", whatever that means.

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Just got back from taking my daughter to see it.   I had first watched the film the day after it came out.   She hadn't seen it before and had been studiously avoiding spoilers.  It was interesting to go through it with someone who didn't know what was coming.  

Couple of observations from my 2nd viewing.   The intensity held up very well.  The Russo brothers clearly embraced the concept that this was the payoff to years of set up films.   They could give it this film a frenetic energy that would be otherwise impossible to maintain while telling a good story because the characters and setting were all well established.  Outside of Avengers 4, I doubt we will ever see anything similar again.  The confluence of a studio with the resources and willingness to provide the backing to such a long-term project. the leadership to see it through and keep all the moving parts from flying apart into incoherence, access to the right mix of creative talent both behind and in front of the camera, and a film watching public that is willing to remain excited and pay attention to the whole thing across more than a decade and at this point 18 films is simply not going to happen again.  The attempts to mimic what Marvel has accomplished show exactly how difficult it is to do right.  This film could tell a great, complex story with an expansive cast with very little exposition because the ground work had been laid so well.  Despite some flaws, it and the MCU as a whole are, and almost certainly, will remain, an unique accomplishment.  

I am now convinced that Loki is most definitely not dead.  He proclaims himself the God of mischief and then makes the most obvious play imaginable.  That just doesn't follow both from a character and a story telling standpoint.  I have working theory that he switched minds with Bruce, which is why the Hulk is not willing to make an appearance.  It doesn't track completely.  Even if that isn't it, though, I'm convinced that Loki will have a role to play in A4.  

They really did a great job making Thanos a rounded character.  Despite being buried in CGI, Broslin managed to convey both complexity and menace.  His scenes with Gamora are very well done and he really sells that having to kill her was both heart breaking for him and that in his mind absolutely necessary.  I was afraid that Thanos would be just a big, tough guy. Yes, the biggest, toughest, meanest SOB in the galaxy but just an evil force to be stopped. That they managed to make more of him deserves applause.  

The biggest issue for me is all the times that the heroes could have done something to block Thanos' plan and failed because of weakness.  I understand the thematic intent.  They were not willing to readily sacrifice a life to win and Thanos was, and that is the heart of what makes them good and what makes him evil.  They did try to sell it a one or two many times though.  Overall, though, the film really worked well for me after watching it again.  Really looking forward to how they wrap this up

Incidently, they are really going to have a hard time keeping my interest past A4, excepting maybe for films that continue the stories of existing characters.  There is a point where they something should be allowed to end and they are likely getting there.  The recent films have all been very, very good but I would rather see them find a stopping point before they start loosing the threads.  It won't happen.  They are making way too much money.  But I can hope.  

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3 hours ago, davos said:

Incidently, they are really going to have a hard time keeping my interest past A4, excepting maybe for films that continue the stories of existing characters.  There is a point where they something should be allowed to end and they are likely getting there.  The recent films have all been very, very good but I would rather see them find a stopping point before they start loosing the threads.  It won't happen.  They are making way too much money.  But I can hope.  

Snipped quote to save space:

On this point it seems like they are doing their best to make us interested in the Avengers post A4. Likely they are killing off almost all of the Avengers from 1. Since that time they have introduced Ant Man / Wasp, Black Panther, Vision, Scarlett Witch, Spider Man, and coming soon Captain Marvel.

It seems clear that they plan for most of this core group to be the Avengers after A4. Four of them will have had their own stand alone movies and could have a well defined fan base so when Avengers happens again, the fans will be ready. The test will be seeing if the actors can match the damn good group that's leaving. To me it's not as much the hero / suit on the screen that matters it's the believability and likeability of the actor in it.

And yes I know I am not stating anything groundbreaking!

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They have said many times that Avengers 4 was going to be the big line in the sand, where everything is viewed as either being pre-4 or post-4. The truth is, with the actors they have they also can't go on forever. Actors lose interest or feel they've achieved as much as they can, so when their long term deals expire you can't bank on them coming back.

In that context, I would see Iron Man, Captain America and Thor as the greatest possibilities for death or retirement, given they've had three centrepiece movies each. Iron Man can (in some way) be passed onto War Machine or Tony retires to have his blissful life with Pepper, Cap can be passed onto Bucky. Thor might not die but might just retire to save the rest of Asgard, and then pop up in some Guardians movies in the future.

Of the other "originals", I think it's pretty clear that Black Widow still has a potential solo movie in the works. And Hulk only had the one standalone movie. So they might still have a bit to run and maybe that will be enough continuity with the Old Guard. (Who knows what happens to Hawkeye). Marvel have staggered it well enough that they will still have some established franchises to go post-Avengers-4 (Guardians and Ant-Man will have had two each) and have set the scene for others (Black Panther, Spiderman, Dr Strange have had one each).

Of course, another avenue is just to let the originals fade into the background (i.e. no more solo movies for Iron Man, Cap, Thor) without writing them out of the MCU completely, and bring them back just for the ensemble movies. If the actors don't want to sign up they can make a random storyline excuse (witness what they did with Hawkeye and Ant-Man) but you can bet audiences would flock back to see whoever of the originals is willing to return.

3 hours ago, davos said:

I am now convinced that Loki is most definitely not dead.  He proclaims himself the God of mischief and then makes the most obvious play imaginable.  That just doesn't follow both from a character and a story telling standpoint.  I have working theory that he switched minds with Bruce, which is why the Hulk is not willing to make an appearance.  It doesn't track completely.  Even if that isn't it, though, I'm convinced that Loki will have a role to play in A4. 

On Loki, I think he really is dead...it doesn't strike me that Thanos could be tricked. I do hear he's on the set for Avengers 4 but that is related to a flashback (or time travel) to the original NYC invasion.

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5 hours ago, davos said:

Incidently, they are really going to have a hard time keeping my interest past A4, excepting maybe for films that continue the stories of existing characters.  There is a point where they something should be allowed to end and they are likely getting there.  The recent films have all been very, very good but I would rather see them find a stopping point before they start loosing the threads.  It won't happen.  They are making way too much money.  But I can hope.  

The key to this for me is (obviously) the new characters.  And this film was a good way to test how fans would react to them - the "loss" of Peter P and T'Challa in particular suggests that fans are willing to take the Next Gen Avengers to their hearts.

I've been mapping the newbies onto the original crew for a while.  There is no straight swapping, because Marvel doesn't work that way, but we do have replacements for the some of the original dynamics.  We assume Bucky will be the new Captain America.  I was worried we might not have a Steve Rogers replacement, but I think Carol or T'Challa could fill the do-the-right-thing, relieved to see them when they show up, stable leader element - though I think Carol will be the leader of the new crew; T'Challa has enough going on.  I also thought T'Challa mapped quite well on to Thor: King of an advanced civilisation.  Doctor Strange, Peter and/or Shuri could cover some of Tony's attributes.  If we need a Hulk replacement it could possibly be Drax.  Hope could be a sort of Black Widow replacement in terms of level-headed, gets-the-job done professional.

What I can't see a replacement for is the Cap/Tony relationship - which has been at the heart of the Avengers.  Doctor Strange certainly has the snark potential of Tony, but who would he clash with?  T'Challa?  I will miss that dynamic.  I loved that Cap called Tony Earth's best defender, and that Tony Stark keeps a flip phone on him at all times - he could have programmed that number into his suit, but no, he keeps the phone on his person always.  Love that.

If the Snapped are not dead but transported to some sort of Other Place, we could get an idea of how the new Avengers work together.

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It's been a couple weeks, but I was able to avoid spoilers - and this is really the first movie in a long time that I have wanted to go into blind.  Very happy that I did - I knew there would be a deathtoll (as did everyone) but was impressed with how they really did handle some of them in an anticlimactic fashion.  

Loki getting choked out, Gamora tossed off the cliff - I was happy to see things happen like that.

It made it even more annoying to see the good guys then go on their monologues.

It did give me shivers in 2 places - when Cap is revealed during the Vision/Wanda fight and when Thor beamed himself in.

I like that they are playing Hulk as an upset child - he is only 2+ years old and got stomped for the first time, he doesn't know how to react.

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Finally saw it last night. I know the source material, and it's hard to avoid all spoilers, so I knew a couple... but that didn't diminish a single moment. The Russo Brothers are the best Marvel directors, in what's been a very crowded field over the course of the last few films.

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Between her standalone movie, and IW2, I'll be curious about how Capt. Marvel is handled.  Specifically, if she's so powerful, and Fury can page her...why wasn't she called in during Avengers 1 or 2?  Hopefully there will be a reason.

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4 minutes ago, HokieStone said:

Between her standalone movie, and IW2, I'll be curious about how Capt. Marvel is handled.  Specifically, if she's so powerful, and Fury can page her...why wasn't she called in during Avengers 1 or 2?  Hopefully there will be a reason.

One would thing that's another reason why they're setting her first film in the 90s...

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2 minutes ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

One would thing that's another reason why they're setting her first film in the 90s...

Well yeah...but it begs the question as to what she's been doing since then.  I imagine they'll send her off to space, or somehow have her incapacitated, and the post-credits scene may be her coming back somehow, ala Captain America.  Maybe that's why Fury wasn't in Age of Ultron much...he was tracking her down...or something.  I'm sure they'll have some rationale...guess we'll see.

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23 minutes ago, HokieStone said:

Well yeah...but it begs the question as to what she's been doing since then.  I imagine they'll send her off to space, or somehow have her incapacitated, and the post-credits scene may be her coming back somehow, ala Captain America.  Maybe that's why Fury wasn't in Age of Ultron much...he was tracking her down...or something.  I'm sure they'll have some rationale...guess we'll see.

Well, isn't the Kree Empire in the Greater Magellanic Cloud...?  I suspect she'll be stuck there...

Mind you, it still requires some work arounds...but I'm willing to go with the flow for now...

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On 5/21/2018 at 9:58 PM, HokieStone said:

Well yeah...but it begs the question as to what she's been doing since then.  I imagine they'll send her off to space, or somehow have her incapacitated, and the post-credits scene may be her coming back somehow, ala Captain America.  Maybe that's why Fury wasn't in Age of Ultron much...he was tracking her down...or something.  I'm sure they'll have some rationale...guess we'll see.

My guess is that they are going to be able to pull her forward from the 90s so they don't have to explain what she's been doing - she steps from 1993 to present - and can have the explanation that as bad as the NYC invasion was, it wasn't universe threatening.

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  • 2 weeks later...
14 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Something just occurred to me; we never got to see what happened after May discovered Peter is Spiderman.  With the statement that “Spiderman: Homecoming 2” will start minutes after the end of Avengers 4, we’re not likely to see it either...

Well, we got her immediate reaction. I'm sure they'll be follow up to that plot thread. Plus you know she's gonna show up in Avengers 4 to guilt Stark. 

I hadn't heard the bit about Homecoming 2 taking place minutes after the end of Avengers 4. That's interesting. Really makes me wonder if the surviving/revived heroes will find themselves in some altered universe. But then Homecoming 2 would mostly be Parker adjusting to that. It'd be neat if he ends up in a universe where Vulture is still Vulture but never tangled with Spider-Man and go caught. So on the surface he'd just be the girl Parker like's dad, but Parker would know. 

I read an article a while back wondering how the hell they're gonna advertise Spider-Man 2. It comes out just two months after A4. Ordinarily we'd have at least one trailer for it before A4 came out, but we'll see what they do. It's complicated by the fact that Sony has a say in the marketing. 

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They could probably still have it ambiguous enough - I think everyone knows Peter is coming back, but the trailer doesn't have to say how. Granted, it will be hard to pull off.

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SM: Homecoming 2 to wrap filming in December.  On track for a summer 2019 opening.

Which leads to the question... how do they market the thing?  For comparison, Antman and the Wasp is releasing this summer and started the marketing push around the Super Bowl in early February.  

How do you market a Spider-Man movie where the main character is supposed to be dead?  Even if you realize he will be back, it still spoils A4.  :dunno: 

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