Meanwhile back at the Wall

[talvikorppi]

13 hours ago, Agent Orange said:

Killing his looney lord commander can end up getting himself killed.  I am sure that crossed BM's mind.  But he is a loyal man of the Night's Watch and devoted to serving the realm.  He had an obligation to stop Jon from elevating his feud with Ramsay to all out warfare.  Killing the lord commander who started the feud gives the Watch a chance to work things out with the Boltons.  It would not be dishonest to assure the Boltons that they had nothing to do with Mance being in Winterfell and taking Ramsay's bride away.  The Watch and its sworn brothers are innocent of those illegal activities.  Bowen was crying because Jon put him in a situation where he now has to kill his lord commander to save the Watch.  Jon created this unfortunate situation.

I think you get "inside Bowen Marsh's head", into his motivations and psychological state quite well.

I bolded that one bit. Is Bowen Marsh devoted to serving the realm, i.e. the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros, the realm (until recently) ruled by the Iron Throne? He dropped out of the LC election after Alliser Thorne etc. made it known the Hand of King Joffrey, Tywin Lannister, had made it subtly known he preferred Janos Slynt to be elected as the new LC of the NW, so getting entangled in southron realm politics.

One character claims a couple of times to serve the realm or work for the good of the realm: Varys. Are you trying to draw a parallel between Bowen Marsh and Varys here? (Of course, whether Varys serves the realm or his own agenda is up for debate but beyond the topic of this thread.)

The NW vow speaks of guarding the realms of men. LC Mormont and Jon Snow independently come to understand it to mean all humankind, including the wildlings, against the Others and the Long Night. The Wall wasn't put up to keep out other men but the Others. The NW has forgot its true purpose and its duty. Understandable, with such a long time since the real threat last manifested itself. But now there are men of the NW who have seen the real threat, plus wildling men, women and children. It's time to guard the realms of men once again. Except the NW has all gone to seed and got entangled in petty politics and infighting.

Sorry, OP, to have wandered OT.

[talvikorppi]

2 hours ago, Azarial said:

Okay, @Clegane'sPup I found the numbers I mentioned from the election. <snip>

Hey, thanks, Azarial, for digging up all these numbers. And all your other thoughtful, measured and well-considered contributions in this interesting thread - thanks OP for starting it and all the others for contributing. I'm getting really excited about what will happen at the Wall next!

[Azarial]

53 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

I think it's made pretty clear in the text what led to Patrek attacking Wun Wun.  Jon openly mentions in front of Patrek that it is custom among the wildlings to steal their brides as a show of strength and courage.  Selyse then later declares that Patrek is to marry Val.  Then you have Patrek trying to steal Val, who Jon made Wun-Wun the protector of.  

This is a great point.  Eastwatch is certainly a wildcard in all this as the appointment of Hewett is made note of by Jon.  You also have Alliser Thorne running around who knows where.  He could very well have shown up at Eastwatch where his friend Hewett is now in charge.

Very interesting.  I knew Jon had the intent to train these hostages I just wasn't sure if he had a chance to implement that yet as once Tormund's band comes through things happen pretty quickly.  I would assume that in order to have utility as hostages, there has to be some sort of plan in place to quickly corral a number of them if the wildlings were to make any sudden moves- otherwise the wildlings could basically act with impunity with no fear of the hostages being killed since they have such a massive numbers advantage.

The hostages being sent through first, and the lack of time are good points. And we see no sign of Tormund's son being Jon's page yet, so that does suggest that they may not have been integrated in any way yet. I really wish there was mention of where they were. Perhaps in the tower with Val? That would be a secure second location, that keeps them safe from hostile nights watch members until Jon has time to place them. Zero evidence of this, but I'm just not sure where else they would go since the Kings tower has been taken by the Queen and she wants no Free Folk around her other than those she sees as Royal, and the main building is where the general population is. There just aren't a lot of options.

As for East watch, does anyone remember where Grenn and Pyp were sent? If they were sent to East watch they could negate some of the damage done by Hewett being in charge. I know they were upset with Jon not spending time with them, but I don't see them getting on board with him being killed and Bowen taking control. I don't remember where Jon sent them though, and I'm not sure what Jon chapter to look in. But Jon did send men loyal to him to each castle. And I know some view this as a mistake as it isolated him, but what if this helps his forces keep control of the wall in the aftermath? Just trying to think of all the variables, as there are so many factors at play here.

[talvikorppi]

I'm trying to think of the factions now at CB (and the Wall in general). Not even thinking about numbers, just possible divisions.

There are the Queen's men, about 50, composed of knights, sworn swords and men-at-arms (=ordinary soldiers). They seem to be mostly R'hollists of varying "piety". Are they loyal to Selyse or Mel? Or Stannis's cause or their own advancement? I don't think we should see them as a totally unified block. Selyse is a deranged religious zealot (I feel kinda sorry for her, it couldn't have been easy being married to unbending, humourless Stannis, failing to produce male heirs - so easy prey for an ambitious religious leader) but how many of the Queen's men are as zealous as she is? How many would follow Melisandre, the religious leader, over their self-interest? What happens if Mel's and Selyse's views/interests clash? So that faction is not necessarily a unified block.

Then there are the wildlings. From Jon's POV we see quite many integrating fairly smoothly, even taking the black, but even Jon is aware that many more are barely controllable. Maybe Jon is wearing pink goggles and he sees things in too positive a light? Some wildlings might feel truly loyal to Jon, but by no means all. And what will they do if he is (mostly) dead? Before he gets better? What then? So the wildlings south of the Wall are not a unified block either. Then there are the wildlings still north of the Wall, unless they get wightified soon.

There are the Norrey and the Flint and some Northmen IIRC. It seemed Jon won them over but what if he's dead? What do they know, anyway?

Lastly, there's the NW. Like others above have said, it seems most rangers and Fist of the First Men survivors plus new recruits are with Jon. Bowen Marsh and the other conservatives, who haven't witnessed the true horror, are against Jon. There must be a third NW faction, the opportunists. They'll keep their heads down and come out for the winning side.

So the factions even at CB are messy, not to mention the rest of the Wall, beyond the Wall, in the North...

Yeah, no wonder it's taking GRRM so long to write the books. :-D

[Tagganaro]

16 minutes ago, Azarial said:

The hostages being sent through first, and the lack of time are good points. And we see no sign of Tormund's son being Jon's page yet, so that does suggest that they may not have been integrated in any way yet. I really wish there was mention of where they were. Perhaps in the tower with Val? That would be a secure second location, that keeps them safe from hostile nights watch members until Jon has time to place them. Zero evidence of this, but I'm just not sure where else they would go since the Kings tower has been taken by the Queen and she wants no Free Folk around her other than those she sees as Royal, and the main building is where the general population is. There just aren't a lot of options.

As for East watch, does anyone remember where Grenn and Pyp were sent? If they were sent to East watch they could negate some of the damage done by Hewett being in charge. I know they were upset with Jon not spending time with them, but I don't see them getting on board with him being killed and Bowen taking control. I don't remember where Jon sent them though, and I'm not sure what Jon chapter to look in. But Jon did send men loyal to him to each castle. And I know some view this as a mistake as it isolated him, but what if this helps his forces keep control of the wall in the aftermath? Just trying to think of all the variables, as there are so many factors at play here.

Right?  I didn't recall Tormund's son even being mentioned afterwards so it was unclear whether the hostages were ever integrated.  I'm not sure where they would be being kept but again somewhat disturbing that at least 30 (I would estimate) were sent to Eastwatch.

You are correct...Jon sent both Grenn and Pyp to Eastwatch.  No way they would ever betray Jon despite being angry at him.  Eastwatch and Shadow Tower are certainly interesting variables in this but we really don't know much about the composition of either tower so it's tough to guess.  I do find it interesting that GRRM had Jon specifically note Hewett being put in charge as troubling and you still have that Alliser Thorne ball up in the air...where is he and what is he doing?  Is he still beyond the Wall?  Is Dywen dead?

13 minutes ago, talvikorppi said:

I'm trying to think of the factions now at CB (and the Wall in general). Not even thinking about numbers, just possible divisions.

There are the Queen's men, about 50, composed of knights, sworn swords and men-at-arms (=ordinary soldiers). They seem to be mostly R'hollists of varying "piety". Are they loyal to Selyse or Mel? Or Stannis's cause or their own advancement? I don't think we should see them as a totally unified block. Selyse is a deranged religious zealot (I feel kinda sorry for her, it couldn't have been easy being married to unbending, humourless Stannis, failing to produce male heirs - so easy prey for an ambitious religious leader) but how many of the Queen's men are as zealous as she is? How many would follow Melisandre, the religious leader, over their self-interest? What happens if Mel's and Selyse's views/interests clash? So that faction is not necessarily a unified block.

I always see the Queen's Men as relatively unified.  In practice, it doesn't matter much whether they are more loyal to Selyse or Melisandre since Selyse is so fanatically devoted to Melisandre it seems like that would be one and the same.  And Melisandre in turn is so devoted to Stannis that I don't see much differentiation.  It's a great question though of what if Mel and Selyse's interests clash...it's just tough for me to even see that happening with how loyal Selyse is to Mel and how loyal Mel is to Stannis.

Quote

Then there are the wildlings. From Jon's POV we see quite many integrating fairly smoothly, even taking the black, but even Jon is aware that many more are barely controllable. Maybe Jon is wearing pink goggles and he sees things in too positive a light? Some wildlings might feel truly loyal to Jon, but by no means all. And what will they do if he is (mostly) dead? Before he gets better? What then? So the wildlings south of the Wall are not a unified block either. Then there are the wildlings still north of the Wall, unless they get wightified soon.

Yes, now the wildlings definitely are not unified.  I do think a good portion of them are pretty loyal to Jon- either directly or indirectly due to their loyalty to Tormund who seems pretty loyal to Jon.  But there is definitely another portion that may like the Weeper for example and have no intention of remaining peaceful.  I think Jon did a pretty great job of taking the most unloyal of the wildlings and separating them (i.e. he wins over the Thenns by marrying them off and he sends Halleck off to garrison another castle ((although I'm not entirely sure whether he ever actually sent him away, just that he intended to)).

 

[Azarial]

10 minutes ago, talvikorppi said:

I'm trying to think of the factions now at CB (and the Wall in general). Not even thinking about numbers, just possible divisions.

There are the Queen's men, about 50, composed of knights, sworn swords and men-at-arms (=ordinary soldiers). They seem to be mostly R'hollists of varying "piety". Are they loyal to Selyse or Mel? Or Stannis's cause or their own advancement? I don't think we should see them as a totally unified block. Selyse is a deranged religious zealot (I feel kinda sorry for her, it couldn't have been easy being married to unbending, humourless Stannis, failing to produce male heirs - so easy prey for an ambitious religious leader) but how many of the Queen's men are as zealous as she is? How many would follow Melisandre, the religious leader, over their self-interest? What happens if Mel's and Selyse's views/interests clash? So that faction is not necessarily a unified block.

Then there are the wildlings. From Jon's POV we see quite many integrating fairly smoothly, even taking the black, but even Jon is aware that many more are barely controllable. Maybe Jon is wearing pink goggles and he sees things in too positive a light? Some wildlings might feel truly loyal to Jon, but by no means all. And what will they do if he is (mostly) dead? Before he gets better? What then? So the wildlings south of the Wall are not a unified block either. Then there are the wildlings still north of the Wall, unless they get wightified soon.

There are the Norrey and the Flint and some Northmen IIRC. It seemed Jon won them over but what if he's dead? What do they know, anyway?

Lastly, there's the NW. Like others above have said, it seems most rangers and Fist of the First Men survivors plus new recruits are with Jon. Bowen Marsh and the other conservatives, who haven't witnessed the true horror, are against Jon. There must be a third NW faction, the opportunists. They'll keep their heads down and come out for the winning side.

So the factions even at CB are messy, not to mention the rest of the Wall, beyond the Wall, in the North...

Yeah, no wonder it's taking GRRM so long to write the books. :-D

 

All great points. And yes, it is a really complicated situation!

As for factions its not just opportunists. We also have to factor in those that will be confused and may start out on one side, but can be swayed to the other. Finding those numbers I got to re-read how this happened during the election on multiple levels. And I suspect that many men will fall into this group, so then it comes down to persuasion. Bowen isn't persuasive. But, Tormund can be if they are willing to listen. Val also said that she could help with this in the past. 

There is also perception. If any free folk came out and saw what was happening, or Val tells what she saw, they would have seen Jon get stabbed defending a giant. Any vow issues are irrelevant to them, but his trusting them to help him in response to the pink letter is also a factor. Dead or not, they show loyalty to those who show strength, and who will fight for/with them. So many will be swayed by these two acts. And most seemed with him already. Plus, if they can join with a group of loyal nights watch men they can prove their loyalty by fighting with them.

They don't want to be cast out north of the wall, and they must know what leaders don't want them there, and who is willing to work with them. They aren't great at taking orders, but fighting, covert ops like raiding and stealing women (not that different from stealing a corps and rescuing a bunch of kids) and pushing back against unearned authority are their strengths. And oddly enough, those skills may be just what is needed.

The biggest catch is them all being underground drinking in the shield hall. If Bowen were smart he'd lock the doors. If Jon supporters are smart they'll stop him before he gets the chance. I also think he won loyalty by his handling of the Thenn's. The Free Folk know how difficult they are to win over, and he never gave up on them or turned on them. They had to notice this. They also had to notice that he respected their culture and adjusted accordingly when they raised concerns, like woman fighting. I just don't see them turning on everyone blindly and disrespecting all that he did to help them. Some may flee south, but I don't think they will abandon their children. I think the leaders at the very least, will stay and fight with those that are loyal to Jon, and get their hostages, and his body before doing anything else. 

The queens men, yes they are split. Some are Mel's, some are just injured and left, and some are Florrents, so loyal to Sylese. But, I think Mel rules sylese, so it may not be an issue...

[Azarial]

8 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

Right?  I didn't recall Tormund's son even being mentioned afterwards so it was unclear whether the hostages were ever integrated.  I'm not sure where they would be being kept but again somewhat disturbing that at least 30 (I would estimate) were sent to Eastwatch.

You are correct...Jon sent both Grenn and Pyp to Eastwatch.  No way they would ever betray Jon despite being angry at him.  Eastwatch and Shadow Tower are certainly interesting variables in this but we really don't know much about the composition of either tower so it's tough to guess.  I do find it interesting that GRRM had Jon specifically note Hewett being put in charge as troubling and you still have that Alliser Thorne ball up in the air...where is he and what is he doing?  Is he still beyond the Wall?  Is Dywen dead?

I always see the Queen's Men as relatively unified.  In practice, it doesn't matter much whether they are more loyal to Selyse or Melisandre since Selyse is so fanatically devoted to Melisandre it seems like that would be one and the same.  And Melisandre in turn is so devoted to Stannis that I don't see much differentiation.  It's a great question though of what if Mel and Selyse's interests clash...it's just tough for me to even see that happening with how loyal Selyse is to Mel and how loyal Mel is to Stannis.

Yes, now the wildlings definitely are not unified.  I do think a good portion of them are pretty loyal to Jon- either directly or indirectly due to their loyalty to Tormund who seems pretty loyal to Jon.  But there is definitely another portion that may like the Weeper for example and have no intention of remaining peaceful.  I think Jon did a pretty great job of taking the most unloyal of the wildlings and separating them (i.e. he wins over the Thenns by marrying them off and he sends Halleck off to garrison another castle ((although I'm not entirely sure whether he ever actually sent him away, just that he intended to)).

 

You put the queens men thing much better than I did, but we are on the same page for sure. And Mel put great value in supporting Jon, so I think she will get them under control eventually. But as I said, she ran off and is likely at her fire and not doing anything in the immediate aftermath. This is where the glory seeking guys who were shamed by being left behind could cause some trouble. 

I wish it was clear who has been sent off, and who is still around. Halleck though, he was tossing out suggestions with Bowen and co right before the letter arrived, so I think he's still there. 

[talvikorppi]

6 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

I always see the Queen's Men as relatively unified.  In practice, it doesn't matter much whether they are more loyal to Selyse or Melisandre since Selyse is so fanatically devoted to Melisandre it seems like that would be one and the same.  And Melisandre in turn is so devoted to Stannis that I don't see much differentiation.  It's a great question though of what if Mel and Selyse's interests clash...it's just tough for me to even see that happening with how loyal Selyse is to Mel and how loyal Mel is to Stannis.

That is what I was prodding at. Selyse is a religious zealot, so all for Mel's kool aid, especially because it says her husband shall be King (and Selyse, a Florent, who are resentful of the Tyrells, shall be Queen (and have sons)). Because Mel has told Selyse her husband is Azor Ahai Reborn, the warrior of light, this great prophecied hero.

Now, what if Mel realises she got it wrong? Her POV chapter already gave us hints. What if she next thinks Stannis isn't AAR, Jon Snow is! How is Selyse going to react? Will Mel even tell her right away? Mel sees herself serving a higher purpose, not Stannis and Selyse.

And what about the recent r'holler converts in Stannis's/Selyse's entourage? Would they follow the priestess Mel if she now told them to follow someone else altogether (provided he isn't or won't remain dead)?

Especially since there's some foreshadowing and this theory around that Mel could sacrafice poor Shireen. Maybe to bring back believed-dead Stannis/aid his war effort (Selyse is zealous and mad enough to maybe go with it)... and inadvertently resurrects/heals Jon Snow, and then Mel sees the light. But that's another discussion.

See, so many moving parts! :-D

[Alexis-something-Rose]

1 hour ago, Azarial said:

As for East watch, does anyone remember where Grenn and Pyp were sent? If they were sent to East watch they could negate some of the damage done by Hewett being in charge. I know they were upset with Jon not spending time with them, but I don't see them getting on board with him being killed and Bowen taking control. I don't remember where Jon sent them though, and I'm not sure what Jon chapter to look in. But Jon did send men loyal to him to each castle. And I know some view this as a mistake as it isolated him, but what if this helps his forces keep control of the wall in the aftermath? Just trying to think of all the variables, as there are so many factors at play here.

Pyp and Grenn were sent to Eastwatch in Jon III of ADWD and Halder and Toad were sent to the Shadow Tower. 

I'm sure Jon has loyal people to him in each castle. But Pyp and Grenn are not enough, and Cotter Pyke who was one of Jon's champions is gone. And Janos Slynt was there for a while and the man is poison. So who knows.

58 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

You are correct...Jon sent both Grenn and Pyp to Eastwatch.  No way they would ever betray Jon despite being angry at him.  Eastwatch and Shadow Tower are certainly interesting variables in this but we really don't know much about the composition of either tower so it's tough to guess.  I do find it interesting that GRRM had Jon specifically note Hewett being put in charge as troubling and you still have that Alliser Thorne ball up in the air...where is he and what is he doing?  Is he still beyond the Wall?  Is Dywen dead?

We don't know what happened to Dywen. Mel tells Jon that she has not seen him or the 5 others in her flames when he asked her.

As far as what's going on at Eastwatch, they have the same thing happening at Castle Black. With Sam and Maester Aemon gone, Clydas is the one tending the ravens. We don't know if he is the only one sending and receiving messages, though.

Cotter Pyle took his maester with him to Hardhome because he can neither read nor write. I think it becomes easier to send communication back and forth between the two castles.

[Moiraine Sedai]

One hour after the death of Jon Snow . . .

Mellissandre stares at the dying embers of her fireplace waiting for R'hllor to show her the Way out of Castle Black with her life.  Selyse has pulled out her hair in grief.  Val is teaching Shireen how to apply makeup.  

The wildlings are gathered outside the gate and arguing over who gets to ride to Winterfell.  Nobody wants to walk.  

Ser Alliser has returned.  He's looking over Jon's body.  He says to the steward, "Hey Bo, one in the heart would da done it."

 

[talvikorppi]

45 minutes ago, Azarial said:

The biggest catch is them all being underground drinking in the shield hall. If Bowen were smart he'd lock the doors. If Jon supporters are smart they'll stop him before he gets the chance. 

Great points again, Azarial. We seem to be thinking broadly similarly.

I quoted and highlighted just this little bit. I don't think the Shield Hall is underground. It was where the highborn nightswatchmen at CB took their meals and gathered, the lowborn had their own hall, back in the day when the NW was thousands of men strong, many highborn. Before the disgrace it became in the past 200 hundred years or so (kind of coincides with strengthening Targaryen rule down south during Jaeharys I and "Good" Queen Alysanne... hm...).

Plus, locking the doors... For one, the doors probably didn't have modern type locks but bars. Also, I get the impression Bowen Marsh & co. rather seized the opportunity, maybe no chance to send anybody to barr the Shield Hall doors (can they be barred from the outside anyway - I think not). Plus maybe already free folk pouring out... Yes, a very confused situation.

[Azarial]

3 hours ago, talvikorppi said:

Great points again, Azarial. We seem to be thinking broadly similarly.

I quoted and highlighted just this little bit. I don't think the Shield Hall is underground. It was where the highborn nightswatchmen at CB took their meals and gathered, the lowborn had their own hall, back in the day when the NW was thousands of men strong, many highborn. Before the disgrace it became in the past 200 hundred years or so (kind of coincides with strengthening Targaryen rule down south during Jaeharys I and "Good" Queen Alysanne... hm...).

Plus, locking the doors... For one, the doors probably didn't have modern type locks but bars. Also, I get the impression Bowen Marsh & co. rather seized the opportunity, maybe no chance to send anybody to barr the Shield Hall doors (can they be barred from the outside anyway - I think not). Plus maybe already free folk pouring out... Yes, a very confufused situation.

I thought I read Jon went down the stairs to get to the shield hall but, I would have to double check as I was searching for numbers and just skimming the rest. But since the wall is built for winter and has the wormways, and temperature below the frost line stays constant, the highborn may have preferred to be underground, and thought this was why it didn't get destroyed when the castle was attacked by the Thens. But I could see it being up just as easily. And yes I meant bar the doors, I know Stannis locked the Nights watch members in for the election so I assumed based on that, that there must be a way to do this as I don't see the two guards he placed there  being enough to deter them if they really wanted out. But, maybe they were just willing to co-operate. I'll have to re-read the section where Jon heads into the election and pay more attention this time

Now, I see what you meant about the Queens men, and you raised some really interesting thoughts. I suspect that Mel and her followers will believe it's Stannis right up until Jon wakes, as I don't think Mel will pull a Thoros and be actively involved in his waking. She seemed to oblivious to what her vision meant, and sold on it being Stannis. I think her actions will contribute to waking him, but with the intent of resurrecting Stannis. I always took the sword without a hilt comments to imply that the spells may not work as/or for whom you intended. So I'm not sure it will factor into the fall out from the stabbing. That said I hadn't put much thought into their reaction in the long run and am now very curious. 

EDIT:

Found it.

Quote

He could hear the noise even before he reached the bottom of the steps; raised voices, curses, someone pounding on a table. Jon stepped into the vault all but unnoticed.

So, yeah, they are underground.

[Kandrax]

12 hours ago, Nowy Tends said:

I don't get it…

I was just kidding.

[Lady Topspin]

Jon is dead, or dying.  It would be pointless for any few of his supporters to fight Bowen Marsh.  It would accomplish nothing.  Even the boys who like Jon will understand why Bowen did what he did.  I don't expect any opposition to Marsh coming from the crows.  The only problem will come from the wildlings and only if he tries to stop them from raiding the Boltons.  I hope he doesn't do that.  It will be a long march to Winterfell and they will be weak by the time they get there.  Roose and Ramsay should have the advantage.  First on Bowen's To Do List, send a message to the Boltons ASAP and tell them what has happened.  That is actually what he should have done as soon as Jon ended his public speech.   

[talvikorppi]

1 hour ago, Azarial said:

I thought I read Jon went down the stairs to get to the shield hall but, I would have to double check <snip>

EDIT:

Found it.

So, yeah, they are underground.

Yes, Jon went underground to where they were all eating now and holding the LC elections because their usual above ground mess hall had been destroyed.

I don't want to argue and belabour this point, especially since I mostly agree with you about the main points, and I don't have my books here to quote chapter and verse.

But the Pink Letter reading scene does not take place in the usual NW mess hall. GRRM especially mentions it's the Shield Hall, and describes it. It's a new location, not the usual place. Jon especially chooses it for its capacity to hold more men than their presently used undercroft mess hall. He has benches brought in (because men sitting down are more patient) and reflects on all the old, crumbling shields and so few new ones along the walls. This place has not been described in the books before this chapter. I seem to even remember weak winter light filtering through the windows but I might be misremembering that, confusing my mental images with the actual text.

It's of course highly symbolic that it's in the Shield Hall, the home of "chivalry" at CB, with crumbling old shields on the walls, that Jon makes his stand. Chivalry doesn't matter, guarding the realms of men matters, whether you're a fancy southron knight or a nightswatchman or a wildling. (You can debate endlessly whether Jon conveyed his policy adequately, and practiced what he preached, but he's got the big picture pat.)

[talvikorppi]

1 hour ago, Gabbie Roxas said:

Jon is dead, or dying.  It would be pointless for any few of his supporters to fight Bowen Marsh.  It would accomplish nothing.  Even the boys who like Jon will understand why Bowen did what he did.  I don't expect any opposition to Marsh coming from the crows.  The only problem will come from the wildlings and only if he tries to stop them from raiding the Boltons.  I hope he doesn't do that.  It will be a long march to Winterfell and they will be weak by the time they get there.  Roose and Ramsay should have the advantage.  First on Bowen's To Do List, send a message to the Boltons ASAP and tell them what has happened.  That is actually what he should have done as soon as Jon ended his public speech.   

Hmmn... Bowen Marsh doesn't have a smartphone, he can't just tweet at Roose/Ramsay Bolton. Bowen Marsh is in the yard where all pandemonium is going on, men of various factions pouring out from various buildings. The ravens are in the rookery, and where's Clydas - supposedly the only one who knows how to use ravens?

Also, should Bowen Marsh & co. bow to Ramsay's demands on the basis of the Pink Letter? Isn't that taking part in realm politics? Notwithstanding they don't have all the various personages Ramsay demands.

[Lady Topspin]

11 minutes ago, talvikorppi said:

Hmmn... Bowen Marsh doesn't have a smartphone, he can't just tweet at Roose/Ramsay Bolton. Bowen Marsh is in the yard where all pandemonium is going on, men of various factions pouring out from various buildings. The ravens are in the rookery, and where's Clydas - supposedly the only one who knows how to use ravens?

Also, should Bowen Marsh & co. bow to Ramsay's demands on the basis of the Pink Letter? Isn't that taking part in realm politics? Notwithstanding they don't have all the various personages Ramsay demands.

The Watch takes no part.  That means they stand aside if Ramsay wants to take into custody the family of rebels.  That is a lot preferable to what Jon did, send a wildling to get his sister so he can hide her away from her husband.  None of this would have happened if Jon had not made an attempt to get Arya away from Ramsay.  Unfortunately, Jon put the watch in a terrible situation and Bowen will have to let the Boltons take away the loser's (Stannis lost the war) family into custody in order to save the watch.  Survival of the watch is the most important thing right now.   They will have to assure the Boltons that they have impeached their oathbreaking lc and from now on the watch will stay neutral.  

Maybe Bowen didn't get the opportunity to send a raven after the meeting.  But he should do so as soon as he's finished with Jon.  

[Azarial]

29 minutes ago, talvikorppi said:

Yes, Jon went underground to where they were all eating now and holding the LC elections because their usual above ground mess hall had been destroyed.

I don't want to argue and belabour this point, especially since I mostly agree with you about the main points, and I don't have my books here to quote chapter and verse.

But the Pink Letter reading scene does not take place in the usual NW mess hall. GRRM especially mentions it's the Shield Hall, and describes it. It's a new location, not the usual place. Jon especially chooses it for its capacity to hold more men than their presently used undercroft mess hall. He has benches brought in (because men sitting down are more patient) and reflects on all the old, crumbling shields and so few new ones along the walls. This place has not been described in the books before this chapter. I seem to even remember weak winter light filtering through the windows but I might be misremembering that, confusing my mental images with the actual text.

It's of course highly symbolic that it's in the Shield Hall, the home of "chivalry" at CB, with crumbling old shields on the walls, that Jon makes his stand. Chivalry doesn't matter, guarding the realms of men matters, whether you're a fancy southron knight or a nightswatchman or a wildling. (You can debate endlessly whether Jon conveyed his policy adequately, and practiced what he preached, but he's got the big picture pat.)

lol no need to argue at all. I thought there were only the two mess area's and that Jon reflected on it because of the subject and who was attending not because it's new. If a third was mentioned after the attack of the wall and I forgot, I'm not going to be upset by that being pointed out, given the amount info in the books I expect to forget a detail or two.

Where the hall is, and how it's made will impact how long the people in the hall will take to notice a commotion so it's important to have the correct information.

[talvikorppi]

6 minutes ago, Gabbie Roxas said:

The Watch takes no part.  That means they stand aside if Ramsay wants to take into custody the family of rebels.  That is a lot preferable to what Jon did, send a wildling to get his sister so he can hide her away from her husband.  None of this would have happened if Jon had not made an attempt to get Arya away from Ramsay.  Unfortunately, Jon put the watch in a terrible situation and Bowen will have to let the Boltons take away the loser's (Stannis lost the war) family into custody in order to save the watch.  Survival of the watch is the most important thing right now.   They will have to assure the Boltons that they have impeached their oathbreaking lc and from now on the watch will stay neutral.  

Maybe Bowen didn't get the opportunity to send a raven after the meeting.  But he should do so as soon as he's finished with Jon.  

Sigh. But Bowen Marsh is taking sides in realm quibbles, or even wars. He sided with the Lannisters (Janos Slynt) at the LC election.

Yes, Jon let his love for his little sister Arya cloud his judgement and made mistakes. But he sees, or saw, the bigger picture. Old Pomegranate only sees his prejudices and his little job and the present tradition of the NW. He's a narrow-minded, conservative jobsworth. Jon is, or was, a visionary who understood what needed to be done to save humanity from an existential threat. Compared to that, who holds Winterfell or the Iron Throne really is pig shit.

Stannis is also pig shit, but he was the only one to help the NW, so Jon owes him at least some courtesy and advice. Jon probably overstepped the line a bit, but what do you do when a (pretend) king, who actually helped you, squats at your place? 

This is why GRRM writes these things so knotty. Nothing is clear-cut or simple. Jon knows/knew the big picture, the real war, but he also had personal motivations. A bit like Jaime. He killed the Mad King to save the people of KL, but also because he hated his guts.

Just don't try to paint Bowen Marsh as some kind of a hero, because after all is said and done, he'll be seen as a competent middle-manager, out of his depth when big things happen. (Stannis is actually similar.)

[Nowy Tends]

42 minutes ago, Gabbie Roxas said:

 (Stannis lost the war)

How would you know? The Pink Letter is not exactly a reliable document. Your assertion isn't based on anything.