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Meanwhile back at the Wall


Clegane'sPup

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Jon knowing the "big picture" and still choosing to make enemies of the Boltons makes what he did even more stupid.  Jon acted stupidly and he is not cut out for leadership.  The watch would have been in better shape to carry out its mission of stopping the Others if Jon had not tried to get his sister away from her husband.  So getting back to the question.  What will Bowen, Mel, Selyse, and Tormund do?  The watch will try to organize and choose a new leader.  Tormund and the wildlings will march south to Winterfell.  Selyse and Mel will barricade themselves and their men will decide to cut their loses and make peace with the Boltons.  

 

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8 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

One hour after the death of Jon Snow . . .

Mellissandre stares at the dying embers of her fireplace waiting for R'hllor to show her the Way out of Castle Black with her life.  Selyse has pulled out her hair in grief.  Val is teaching Shireen how to apply makeup.  

The wildlings are gathered outside the gate and arguing over who gets to ride to Winterfell.  Nobody wants to walk.  

Ser Alliser has returned.  He's looking over Jon's body.  He says to the steward, "Hey Bo, one in the heart would da done it."

 

One hour after Jon's death from multiple stab wounds:

Bowen and Alliser looking at the bodies of Wunweg, Jon, and Ser Patrek.  Alliser points to Wunweg.  "Burn that one.  You don't want him coming back for you."

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A few observations:

50 armed men accompanied Selyse.  Jon describes them as Queen's Men, but loyal to Melisandre.  I've no reason to doubt this assessment.  They will definitely fight for Melisandre, and almost certainly for Stannis's family.  They will definitely not support Marsh.  Given Jon's support for Stannis, they might fight for him, and certainly will if Melisandre orders it.  How they will respond to Wildlings I have no idea.

Bowen Marsh and his fellow conspirators appear to have struck before they were really ready, necessitated by Jon leaving Castle Black and taking overt action against the Boltons.  I doubt that they have any follow up planneds,or any supporters in place.  If I'm wrong and they do, then they could take over relatively easily.  But I doubt that is the case.

Gor practical purposes, there are three sides in the NW; those that supprot Jon, consisting of Rangers, new recruits, and some others who believe in him on the threat to the North.  Marsh's support will be mostly with the stewards and builders, and could be pretty thin.  Most of the NW is there because they have to be, and probably don't care much.  They will probably go along with whoever wins out.

Given that the conspirators were using daggers, and Jon had thick winter clothing, plus probably a leather jack (at least), there is the distinct possibility that the wounds are not fatal.  In that case,much will depend on how long he is out of commission.  

My guess is that the Marsh forces will not be able to take effective command.  Mel's forces would probably oppose that, and I don't think the wildlings would go along either.  If he had forces in place, it would work , but I don't think he does.  My guess is that the Jon loyalists, with help from Mel and/or the wildlings, ultimately prevail, but it cosuld get mesy.

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On 5/17/2018 at 9:02 AM, Azarial said:

Okay, @Clegane'sPup I found the numbers I mentioned from the election. I am going to show the who was voted for as well, since that could give an indication of who may fight in any given faction, or indicate the numbers at the other castles based on the block voting that they were allowed to do.

We are given two days counts I am going to just show both days day one/day two:

Ser Denys Mallister 213/203

Cotter Pyke 187/169

Lord Slynt 74/137

Othell Yarwyck 60/72

Bowen Marsh 49/--

Threefinger Hobb 5/5

Dolorous Ed Tollett 1/2

So the totals are 589/588 (the difference is because Jon didn't vote on day two, well day nine technically)

Hey, thanks for the research. Appreciate it.  :cheers:  This is where other poster input comes in handy.  Five books and a lot of information to remember or forget.  I was not suggesting you were incorrect. I didn’t know how many men were involved.  From what you gathered there are approximately 598 NW men total from the three manned NW castles involved in the vote for the choosing for the new LC. Thanks.

I’m thinking NW men from Eastwatch and Shadow Tower converged on CB for the choosing of the new LC in SoS. Do we agree?

After the choosing, the men from Eastwatch and Shadow Tower presumably return to their places of duty.

Interestingly when I went back to browse the Sam & Jon chapters in SoS I rediscovered the NW did defend CB with 40 men against 120 wildlings.

A Storm of Swords - Jon VI     "There's no time. There are wildlings south of the Wall, coming up from Queenscrown to open the gate."     "How many?" Noye half-carried Jon out the door. "A hundred and twenty, and well armed for wildlings. Bronze armor, some bits of steel. How many men are left here?"    "Forty odd," said Donal Noye. "The crippled and infirm, and some green boys still in training."    "If Marsh is gone, who did he name as castellan?"/

I’m not being persnickety with numbers due to martin’s ambiguous writing style. What I was trying to discuss in the opening post was ---- now that the wildlings/free folk have passed through the gate at CB they have the advantage especially since LC Snow is indisposed.

I’m not trying to prove a point or theory. I’m suggesting that martin will need to in one way or another address in WoW the chaos that breaks out after LC Snow is tenderized. Then again, perhaps there will be no chaos at the Wall and all gather round to sing kumbaya, or not.  :mellow:

 

 

 

 

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On 5/18/2018 at 2:42 PM, Nevets said:

My guess is that the Marsh forces will not be able to take effective command. 

Agree. Thanks for bringing the quote about the number if men Stannis left behind at CB.

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On 5/17/2018 at 10:30 PM, Damsel in Distress said:

Jon knowing the "big picture" and still choosing to make enemies of the Boltons makes what he did even more stupid.  Jon acted stupidly and he is not cut out for leadership.  The watch would have been in better shape to carry out its mission of stopping the Others if Jon had not tried to get his sister away from her husband.  So getting back to the question.  What will Bowen, Mel, Selyse, and Tormund do?  The watch will try to organize and choose a new leader.  Tormund and the wildlings will march south to Winterfell.  Selyse and Mel will barricade themselves and their men will decide to cut their loses and make peace with the Boltons.  

 

Those knights won't go down with Stannis.  It is a fitting parallel because the garrison at Dragonstone were about to give King Viserys and Princess Daenerys to Stannis.  How fitting it is to have his own garrison give up his family to Roose Bolton.  Turnabout, comeuppance.  

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6 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Hey, thanks for the research. Appreciate it.  :cheers:  This is where other poster input comes in handy.  Five books and a lot of information to remember or forget.  I was not suggesting you were incorrect. I didn’t know how many men were involved.  From what you gathered there are approximately 598 NW men total from the three manned NW castles involved in the vote for the choosing for the new LC. Thanks.

I’m thinking NW men from Eastwatch and Shadow Tower converged on CB for the choosing of the new LC in SoS. Do we agree?

After the choosing, the men from Eastwatch and Shadow Tower presumably return to their places of duty.

Interestingly when I went back to browse the Sam & Jon chapters in SoS I rediscovered the NW did defend CB with 40 men against 120 wildlings.

A Storm of Swords - Jon VI     "There's no time. There are wildlings south of the Wall, coming up from Queenscrown to open the gate."     "How many?" Noye half-carried Jon out the door. "A hundred and twenty, and well armed for wildlings. Bronze armor, some bits of steel. How many men are left here?"    "Forty odd," said Donal Noye. "The crippled and infirm, and some green boys still in training."    "If Marsh is gone, who did he name as castellan?"/

I’m not being persnickety with numbers due to martin’s ambiguous writing style. What I was trying to discuss in the opening post was ---- now that the wildlings/free folk have passed through the gate at CB they have the advantage especially since LC Snow is indisposed.

I’m not trying to prove a point or theory. I’m suggesting that martin will need to in one way or another address in WoW the chaos that breaks out after LC Snow is tenderized. Then again, perhaps there will be no chaos at the Wall and all gather round to sing kumbaya, or not.  :mellow:

 

 

 

 

 

Oh, there will be chaos and they can still sing kumbaya.  Seriously, all of the factions have different agendas.  (1)  Selyse and her armsmen want to survive.  But these men know better than anyone that they can't fight the Boltons.  What to do?  They don't want to die with Stannis.  The solution, comply with the reasonable requests of the bastard letter.  (2)  The wildlings want to rescue their king.  They're not hanging around to see who gets elected LC.  They don't care about that.  They will leave for Winterfell as soon as they can.  (3)  The Brothers want to save the watch and stop the Others.  Bowen Marsh and the officers will do what they can to clean up Jon's mess and make peace with the Boltons.  That is not taking sides, that's mending the fence after their LC started the feud.  

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18 hours ago, Anck Su Namun said:

1)  Selyse and her armsmen want to survive.  But these men know better than anyone that they can't fight the Boltons.  What to do?  They don't want to die with Stannis.  The solution, comply with the reasonable requests of the bastard letter. 

Reasonable demands?  The guy boasts of torturing captives and you want to send him more?  I think not.  Besides, the men are described as loyal to Mel.  People loyal to her tend to be pretty fanatical about it.  They will fight.  Their most sensible response, if they think Ramsay is on the way, is to evacuate, either to Eastwatch or even Braavos (probably with FArya in tow).  The NW doesn't have the forces to prevent it, in any case.

18 hours ago, Anck Su Namun said:

(2)  The wildlings want to rescue their king.  They're not hanging around to see who gets elected LC.  They don't care about that.  They will leave for Winterfell as soon as they can. 

The will care if they want someplace to come back to.  Jon is the best friend they have got, and they know it.  Besides, there are also wlidlings at other castles, plus the hostages, locations unknown.  They will probably fight for Jon.

On 5/17/2018 at 8:30 PM, Damsel in Distress said:

on knowing the "big picture" and still choosing to make enemies of the Boltons makes what he did even more stupid. 

Jon did not choose to make enemies of the Boltons.  He isn't quite that stupid.  He sent a covert mission to rescue his sister.   The idea was that the Boltons wouldn't know.  That may not have been the wisest course, but it is hardly picking a fight with the Boltons.  Of course, once Mance goes to Winterfell and gets caught, he is pretty much stuck with it.  Btu it wasn't his intent.

Not that that really matters.  We're here to discuss the future, not the past.:D  And unless Marsh's forces are a lot better organized than I think they are, they're going to lose.  Badly.

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On 5/19/2018 at 3:07 PM, Clegane'sPup said:

Hey, thanks for the research. Appreciate it.  :cheers:  This is where other poster input comes in handy.  Five books and a lot of information to remember or forget.  I was not suggesting you were incorrect. I didn’t know how many men were involved.  From what you gathered there are approximately 598 NW men total from the three manned NW castles involved in the vote for the choosing for the new LC. Thanks.

I’m thinking NW men from Eastwatch and Shadow Tower converged on CB for the choosing of the new LC in SoS. Do we agree?

After the choosing, the men from Eastwatch and Shadow Tower presumably return to their places of duty.

Interestingly when I went back to browse the Sam & Jon chapters in SoS I rediscovered the NW did defend CB with 40 men against 120 wildlings.

A Storm of Swords - Jon VI     "There's no time. There are wildlings south of the Wall, coming up from Queenscrown to open the gate."     "How many?" Noye half-carried Jon out the door. "A hundred and twenty, and well armed for wildlings. Bronze armor, some bits of steel. How many men are left here?"    "Forty odd," said Donal Noye. "The crippled and infirm, and some green boys still in training."    "If Marsh is gone, who did he name as castellan?"/

I’m not being persnickety with numbers due to martin’s ambiguous writing style. What I was trying to discuss in the opening post was ---- now that the wildlings/free folk have passed through the gate at CB they have the advantage especially since LC Snow is indisposed.

I’m not trying to prove a point or theory. I’m suggesting that martin will need to in one way or another address in WoW the chaos that breaks out after LC Snow is tenderized. Then again, perhaps there will be no chaos at the Wall and all gather round to sing kumbaya, or not.  :mellow:

Oh, my comment about remember correctly was in response to my own post and saying I thought I remembered but wasn't sure. You didn't say anything that made me think you were doing anything other than asking if I'd be willing to look into it and confirm since I wasn't sure. :D 

Yes, those are the numbers at the attack, but remember before hand Mance talks to Jon and tells him what a fool Bowen is, and how he has tricked him into taking all the fighting men and having them chase false threats up and down the wall, leaving only a small group of boys, and cripples, and old men behind. So those 40 weren't the full garrison of Castle Black. (Foreshadowing of Bowens most recent actions attacking a false threat and failing to see the real danger thus weakening their defences? I think so.)

On 5/17/2018 at 8:30 PM, Damsel in Distress said:

So getting back to the question.  What will Bowen, Mel, Selyse, and Tormund do?  The watch will try to organize and choose a new leader.  Tormund and the wildlings will march south to Winterfell.  Selyse and Mel will barricade themselves and their men will decide to cut their loses and make peace with the Boltons.  

 

Umm, the Boltons made peace with the Ironborn, then executed them all after they had surrendered and left the letter with the peace terms with the bodies, and we know how word spreads through the north and that some of the most gossipy northern houses (one of which has two branches one in the mountains near the wall and the other near the mass execution) are at the wall, and their kin are with Stannis, who likely passed those bodies during the march. Not to mention Mel will likely see something in her fire and say don't do it. So I don't see how anyone could think that your last point is even remotely valid. 

Tormund knows the real threat, believes Mance is dead, and has no reason to go south without Jon; they needed Jon to take Winterfell. He could win over the northern lords and knows the castle, the Free Folk know they can't take that castle on their own. He also has the numbers to take the wall, and all his men are at Castle Black. When they came through the wall Jon had to make the men out their hoods up, to hide the fact that they were mostly boys and old men and not warriors, this was there to tell us that the Free Folk could take the wall if they wanted. And their customs were shown to us, so that we would know they won't follow just anybody, making killing the one guy they were willing to follow a major blunder on Bowens part. And taking the wall and making sure it's manned is the best way to protect the Free Folk. Just look at the way Tormund talks, you can tell he is an intelligent man. He's not going to go to Winterfell for no reason. Going there before was a good idea, because if they won they would have the gratitude of the Starks, and a safer place, and a warmer welcome than at the wall. Why go now? And the letter saying Mance is alive isn't a reason, as Tormond says outright that he doesn't believe it. 

The most likely scenario is all factions stay. That means the best chance for the nights watch is to select a Lord Commander that is able to work with the Free Folk, and the Queens men. Just like after the death of Ceasar, his successor took over and did everything exactly as Ceasar planned and the coup was a total failure. And since GRRM loves history and  has said that the wall was modeled after the Roman Harridans Wall, we know he is using Roman history for the stuff at the wall, the fallout after Ceasars stabbing should be taken into account. 

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On 5/19/2018 at 11:35 PM, Anck Su Namun said:

Those knights won't go down with Stannis.  It is a fitting parallel because the garrison at Dragonstone were about to give King Viserys and Princess Daenerys to Stannis.  How fitting it is to have his own garrison give up his family to Roose Bolton.  Turnabout, comeuppance.  

Comeuppance.  

Confusion.  Plenty of confusion at Castle Black with a mad giant and a dead lord commander.  I am surprised at the members thinking Bowen would try to hide his deed.  He did it "for the watch" to save the watch from Jon.  He doesn't have to hide it from anybody.  All the crows would understand and support why he did it.  Besides, there is no way to hide it.  The savages are expecting Jon to lead their attack on the Boltons.  They will ask questions if Jon doesn't show up dressed for battle.  Bowen can't hide Jon's body and he shouldn't.  He executed a criminal and the crows will understand that.  He won't make the wildlings happy and that is where the trouble will come from.  He can't stop them from going to war with Ramsay and they know it.  I don't think he's unwise enough to block them from leaving.  

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I decided to refresh my memory on the fall out aftermath from the Ides of March to see what ideas Martin may choose to use or alter from that. And it's even more similar than I remembered, there was even a poetic description on the aftermath that sounds oddly like the long night being triggered by this event, I found that fascinating. 

But we have the factions, the parallel to the Jon loyalists are described in two parts that sound similar to the general nights watch men/new recruits/rangers and the Free Folk, and the clans men. 

Caesars wife has dreams and tries to stop him from going, this sounds like Mel.

We have someone who was on Jon/Ceasars side and thought they would take over as ruling these factions, but were mistaken. This is the hardest one to place. I would say Bowen except he is not on Jon's side, so maybe the guy from East Watch? or Tormund?

We have the ruling class despite many people clearly supporting Jon/Caesar that did the stabbing, thought they would be celebrated and shouted out about what they did and soon realized that everyone turned away from them and went and locked the doors and weren't cheering them, or supporting them and their actions. (since the Free Folk are inside the shield hall, and most of the nights watch members will be scared and confused over what just happened and what the fallout will be I can see them just slipping away until things settle down.

And the conspirators are said to flee after their cold reception and the body is left until some slaves not related to the whole mess come and get it. This could be the Queens men who find the body as they are the least tied to Jon and Mel is or was a slave, or could be Val as she is a prisoner so that fits with the slave theme too. Maybe they do it together along with one more (there were three slaves)

Then the conspirators are offered a compromise, they get to live but all the changes that were made stay the same. All appointments etc. and if they didn't agree the mob (see Jon loyalists) would be unleashed.

Then the actual successor arrives and takes over. This could be Tormund if the first guy was a nights watch member or just whoever gets properly elected in. Or could be Jon, if he is resurrected as many of us suspect based on the whole bleeding star (Justin), salt (Bowen), smoke (Jon) thing.  

Then lots of people are killed for money, I guess this could be executions instead. The other way it could be used would be if the conspirators went to the Boltons, if they were the ones who agreed to pardon them for desertion and treason as a reward for them supporting their claim to fArya and the north. Then the war that followed for funds could be against the Boltons and the conspirators.

I know GRRM doesn't take things directly, just uses it as inspiration but the similarities are to large to ignore that this was a source of inspiration, (it got nickname the Ides of Marsh from the fan base for a reason) and if that is the case the immediate aftermath may not be as bloody, or crazy as we think based on the source of inspiration.

So any thoughts on Bowen and co being proud and bragging only to have everyone run from them like they have the plague while the Jon loyalists form a mob that is used as a threat, but never unleashed? My mind was thinking bloodier to be honest, but we do have Mel with that poor family who keep going on about their kings blood (I cringe whenever I read those scenes), so I'm sure there will be casualties, but am now wondering if the shock may win out at first avoiding to much blood shed. Or if the mere threat of violence from the Free folk is enough to prevent it?

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On 5/19/2018 at 9:35 PM, Anck Su Namun said:

Those knights won't go down with Stannis.  It is a fitting parallel because the garrison at Dragonstone were about to give King Viserys and Princess Daenerys to Stannis.  How fitting it is to have his own garrison give up his family to Roose Bolton.  Turnabout, comeuppance.  

One thing to remember about Stannis is that, while he hasn't got that many supporters, those he does have are incredibly loyal, even fanatically so.  Melisandre's followers are, I think, even more so.  They are not going to put down their arms the moment the Bolton forces show up.  They will put up a fight.  Certainly, Selyse's (or Mel's) 50 men are enough to keep them safe from any immediate threat.  So while it is hard to say what role they will play at Castle Black, they won't give up Stannis or his family Mel without a fight.

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On 5/17/2018 at 2:18 PM, Moiraine Sedai said:

One hour after the death of Jon Snow . . .

Mellissandre stares at the dying embers of her fireplace waiting for R'hllor to show her the Way out of Castle Black with her life.  Selyse has pulled out her hair in grief.  Val is teaching Shireen how to apply makeup.  

The wildlings are gathered outside the gate and arguing over who gets to ride to Winterfell.  Nobody wants to walk.  

Ser Alliser has returned.  He's looking over Jon's body.  He says to the steward, "Hey Bo, one in the heart would da done it."

 

Me to Alliser, "It was a team effort, Al.  Everybody contributed."

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On 5/22/2018 at 6:27 PM, Rosetta Stone said:

All the crows would understand and support why he did it.  Besides, there is no way to hide it.  The savages are expecting Jon to lead their attack on the Boltons.  They will ask questions if Jon doesn't show up dressed for battle. 

Good argument.  B/M can't keep the ambush a secret.  

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On 5/19/2018 at 11:35 PM, Anck Su Namun said:

Those knights won't go down with Stannis.  It is a fitting parallel because the garrison at Dragonstone were about to give King Viserys and Princess Daenerys to Stannis.  How fitting it is to have his own garrison give up his family to Roose Bolton.  Turnabout, comeuppance.  

Interesting should things turn out that way.

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On 5/17/2018 at 11:38 AM, talvikorppi said:

I think you get "inside Bowen Marsh's head", into his motivations and psychological state quite well.

I bolded that one bit. Is Bowen Marsh devoted to serving the realm, i.e. the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros, the realm (until recently) ruled by the Iron Throne? He dropped out of the LC election after Alliser Thorne etc. made it known the Hand of King Joffrey, Tywin Lannister, had made it subtly known he preferred Janos Slynt to be elected as the new LC of the NW, so getting entangled in southron realm politics.

One character claims a couple of times to serve the realm or work for the good of the realm: Varys. Are you trying to draw a parallel between Bowen Marsh and Varys here? (Of course, whether Varys serves the realm or his own agenda is up for debate but beyond the topic of this thread.)

The NW vow speaks of guarding the realms of men. LC Mormont and Jon Snow independently come to understand it to mean all humankind, including the wildlings, against the Others and the Long Night. The Wall wasn't put up to keep out other men but the Others. The NW has forgot its true purpose and its duty. Understandable, with such a long time since the real threat last manifested itself. But now there are men of the NW who have seen the real threat, plus wildling men, women and children. It's time to guard the realms of men once again. Except the NW has all gone to seed and got entangled in petty politics and infighting.

Sorry, OP, to have wandered OT.

I don't know if Varys and Bowen are necessarily parallel.  Varys is loyal to a certain family.  Bowen Marsh has no family outside the watch.  Bowen Marsh belong to an organization and swore an oath to defend the realm.  The Watch cannot do its job if its officers continue to support and fight for their families after taking their vows.  That was true when the watch was created and it is even more true at the present.   Jon got the watch entangled into outside politics more than any other officer when he sent the wildlings out for Arya.  If you think the watch has gone corrupt then you have to blame Jon too, because he got them mixed up in Bolton politics.

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On 5/16/2018 at 10:19 PM, Agent Orange said:

all memories of warmth left his body

Could be just a flowery way of saying Rigor Mortis

It's a way to keep his body from rotting.  This buys enough time plotwise for the Others to make it to the wall and do a mass wighting of the fallen.  Jon will be one of those who comes back as a wight.

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On 5/19/2018 at 11:35 PM, Anck Su Namun said:

Those knights won't go down with Stannis.  It is a fitting parallel because the garrison at Dragonstone were about to give King Viserys and Princess Daenerys to Stannis.  How fitting it is to have his own garrison give up his family to Roose Bolton.  Turnabout, comeuppance.  

Depends on what Roose Bolton will offer these men.  A patch of land in the north, which is his right to grant, will win many over to his side.  He should divvy up some of the Stark lands to those willing to give up Stannis' family to him.  I will even go so far as to say Northern support for the Boltons will improve after everybody learns of the brokered marriage between Lady Karstark and the wildling.  The presence of the wildlings on their side of the wall will cause concern among the landowning nobles and their smallfolk and that will sway them towards Roose Bolton.

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On 5/17/2018 at 10:30 PM, Damsel in Distress said:

Jon knowing the "big picture" and still choosing to make enemies of the Boltons makes what he did even more stupid.  Jon acted stupidly and he is not cut out for leadership.  The watch would have been in better shape to carry out its mission of stopping the Others if Jon had not tried to get his sister away from her husband.  So getting back to the question.  What will Bowen, Mel, Selyse, and Tormund do?  The watch will try to organize and choose a new leader.  Tormund and the wildlings will march south to Winterfell.  Selyse and Mel will barricade themselves and their men will decide to cut their loses and make peace with the Boltons.  

 

 

On 5/19/2018 at 11:35 PM, Anck Su Namun said:

Those knights won't go down with Stannis.  It is a fitting parallel because the garrison at Dragonstone were about to give King Viserys and Princess Daenerys to Stannis.  How fitting it is to have his own garrison give up his family to Roose Bolton.  Turnabout, comeuppance.  

 

On 5/23/2018 at 5:04 PM, Nevets said:

One thing to remember about Stannis is that, while he hasn't got that many supporters, those he does have are incredibly loyal, even fanatically so.  Melisandre's followers are, I think, even more so.  They are not going to put down their arms the moment the Bolton forces show up.  They will put up a fight.  Certainly, Selyse's (or Mel's) 50 men are enough to keep them safe from any immediate threat.  So while it is hard to say what role they will play at Castle Black, they won't give up Stannis or his family Mel without a fight.

I can understand a few of those soldiers may decide to fight for and protect what remains of Stannis' household from the Boltons. 

But more of them will take a more practical approach, like Herschel in the following clip below from Wholly Moses:

 

 

 

 

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