Meanwhile back at the Wall

[Clegane'sPup]

16 minutes ago, Anck Su Namun said:

Obsessed is the better word to describe Jon's mental state.  His feelings for Arya drove him to betray his duties.  

Can someone help me with this idea of LC Snow's obsession with his sister Arya?

I may be thick and dumb as a stump.

Seriously, I am asking. Is there something in the text of five books that leads to the idea that LC Snow/Jon Snow is basing his decisions on his sisters well being?

 

[kissdbyfire]

40 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Har! Not gonna happen. Individuals who get all up into the twitters aren't gonna waste their time reading a book chapter. They gonna watch a video and splain stuffies that someone else has regurgitated.

I know. Or I should know by now but... sometimes I cannot help myself.

40 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

You do comprehend that it is okey dokey to dislike a fictional book character? 

I know this wasn't directed at me but I'm gonna reply anyways...

It's totally ok to dislike characters. But when you get blind hate that prevents you from understanding the text it becomes a problem, no? It's no skin off my nose, the problem is only an issue for the rabid haters, they're the ones who are missing out. However, the mountains of posts asserting misconceptions and downright erroneous claims get deadly dull over time. *Yawn*. 

I have zero doubts that Arya is a strong motivator for Jon. And that's just as it should be, btw. But we have Jon telling everybody at the Shieldhall that he means to make Ramsay answer for the threats he's made. And he explains why.

ADwD, Jon XIII

"And where will you be, crow?" Borroq thundered. "Hiding here in Castle Black with your white dog?"

"No. I ride south." Then Jon read them the letter Ramsay Snow had written.

The Shieldhall went mad.

Every man began to shout at once. They leapt to their feet, shaking fists. So much for the calming power of comfortable benches. Swords were brandished, axes smashed against shields. Jon Snow looked to Tormund. The Giantsbane sounded his horn once more, twice as long and twice as loud as the first time.

"The Night's Watch takes no part in the wars of the Seven Kingdoms," Jon reminded them when some semblance of quiet had returned. "It is not for us to oppose the Bastard of Bolton, to avenge Stannis Baratheon, to defend his widow and his daughter. This creature who makes cloaks from the skins of women has sworn to cut my heart out, and I mean to make him answer for those words … but I will not ask my brothers to forswear their vows.

"The Night's Watch will make for Hardhome. I ride to Winterfell alone, unless …" Jon paused. "… is there any man here who will come stand with me?"

 

Yes, he says all this in public, so people can argue that he's lying and that these are not the real motives. Only, mere seconds after that we have his actual thoughts on the matter. Martin deliberately shows us what the character is thinking, and he didn't decide to do that for shits and giggles. 

 

ADwD, Jon XIII

Horse and Rory fell in beside Jon as he left the Shieldhall. I should talk with Melisandre after I see the queen, he thought. If she could see a raven in a storm, she can find Ramsay Snow for me. Then he heard the shouting … and a roar so loud it seemed to shake the Wall. "That come from Hardin's Tower, m'lord," Horse reported. He might have said more, but the scream cut him off.

 

Alas, none of that matters when people are so hellbent on hating a fictional character that they miss the whole story because of it!

[WildlingWitch]

It really doesn't matter if you dislike a character or not but you can't ignore the text just because you dislike that character. I dislike Jaime Scumbag idiot face but I'm not going to say that he's NOT on a redemption arc or that he's NOT trying to distance himself from Cersei because he is. I know he is because it was written in the text.

Its the same with Jon. Jon fans don't care if you like Jon, Hate Jon or won't to reach thorough the page and drawn him in a ditch but you can't ignore whats written on the page because you don't like the character. You can't say that it was his idea to send Mance to Winterfell because to believe that you have to willfully ignore an entire chapter that tells us that Mel came up with the idea and that Mance had already agreed to the mission and planned a secondary mission before Jon found out about it. You can't say that Jon betrayed the Watch in order to launch a rescue mission for Arya or to start a war with Ramsey because he only decides to ride South after Ramsey threatened to attack the Night's Watch which is defenseless from the South.

[Wolf's Bane]

12 minutes ago, WildlingWitch said:

It really doesn't matter if you dislike a character or not but you can't ignore the text just because you dislike that character. I dislike Jaime Scumbag idiot face but I'm not going to say that he's NOT on a redemption arc or that he's NOT trying to distance himself from Cersei because he is. I know he is because it was written in the text.

Its the same with Jon. Jon fans don't care if you like Jon, Hate Jon or won't to reach thorough the page and drawn him in a ditch but you can't ignore whats written on the page because you don't like the character. You can't say that it was his idea to send Mance to Winterfell because to believe that you have to willfully ignore an entire chapter that tells us that Mel came up with the idea and that Mance had already agreed to the mission and planned a secondary mission before Jon found out about it. You can't say that Jon betrayed the Watch in order to launch a rescue mission for Arya or to start a war with Ramsey because he only decides to ride South after Ramsey threatened to attack the Night's Watch which is defenseless from the South.

Mel presented the idea but it was Jon's decision whether to proceed or not.  He chose to proceed.  To make his guilt even worse, Jon was in charge and he sent Dolorous to fetch the women from mole town to help Mance Rayder.  There is no way you could have read the books and claim that Jon had nothing to do with with the Arya rescue mission.  Jon was in charge.  Mel and Mance could not go along with it without Jon's permission and cooperation.  Jon was not a passive participant in this illegal mission, he was an active participant.  He was mission commander.  Mance did exactly what Jon told him to do, he removed the girl he thought was Arya from Winterfell.  Why did Mance do that?  Because he was working for Jon and that was what Jon told him to do.

[WildlingWitch]

9 minutes ago, Wolf's Bane said:

Mel presented the idea but it was Jon's decision whether to proceed or not.  He chose to proceed.  To make his guilt even worse, Jon was in charge and he sent Dolorous to fetch the women from mole town to help Mance Rayder.  There is no way you could have read the books and claim that Jon had nothing to do with with the Arya rescue mission.  Jon was in charge.  Mel and Mance could not go along with it without Jon's permission and cooperation.  Jon was not a passive participant in this illegal mission, he was an active participant.  He was mission commander.  Mance did exactly what Jon told him to do, he removed the girl he thought was Arya from Winterfell.  Why did Mance do that?  Because he was working for Jon and that was what Jon told him to do.

Even without Jon's permission Mance still would have found a way to leave the Knights Watch. That's what he's good at sneaking in and out of places he even makes a point of saying that he could have sneaked into Jon's chambers without anyone knowing.

Also I know this has been argued but Jon did not agree for Mance to go to Winterell. Yes he obviously agreed to the mission but he agreed to let Mance go to the Lake and when the grey girl finally rocked up at the Watch he questioned why Mance wasn't with her.

But I didn't really want to get into this argument again my post was supposed to be more or a "we all have our irrational hate characters but we can't let that hate stop us from enjoying the story by ignoring whats written'

[Azarial]

14 minutes ago, WildlingWitch said:

Even without Jon's permission Mance still would have found a way to leave the Knights Watch. That's what he's good at sneaking in and out of places he even makes a point of saying that he could have sneaked into Jon's chambers without anyone knowing.

Also I know this has been argued but Jon did not agree for Mance to go to Winterell. Yes he obviously agreed to the mission but he agreed to let Mance go to the Lake and when the grey girl finally rocked up at the Watch he questioned why Mance wasn't with her.

I agree to all of this. Mel wanted him to know about it to win his trust, not because she needed his permission. A fact her conversation with Mance makes very clear.

14 minutes ago, WildlingWitch said:

But I didn't really want to get into this argument again my post was supposed to be more or a "we all have our irrational hate characters but we can't let that hate stop us from enjoying the story by ignoring whats written'

But, I agree 1000% to this.

This thread was having a really interesting and friendly discussion until the Jon Snow haters showed up. If you hate him, fine. But that means you won't have studied his chapters. That means there could be lots of subtle detail you missed. I've made the same point several times, several others have made the same point. It's been backed up with quotes, and discussed, several times. And the thread keeps getting derailed by the exact same claims. If he's not your favorite, learn from those of us who do like him, or if you hate him so much don't go to threads about him. But coming to a Jon thread just to insult him, and ignore the facts given and derail a good discussion is disrespectful to the rest of us. 

I don't have time to do a post refuting the Arya thing right now, but I will be sure to do that tomorrow.

 

[Azarial]

I’m guessing the reason some of us think Jon isn’t acting just for Arya but others do comes down to how we interpret this:

 

Quote

 

Jon flexed the fingers of his sword hand. The Night's Watch takes no part. He closed his fist and opened it again. What you propose is nothing less than treason. He thought of Robb, with snowflakes melting in his hair. Kill the boy and let the man be born. He thought of Bran, clambering up a tower wall, agile as a monkey. Of Rickon's breathless laughter. Of Sansa, brushing out Lady's coat and singing to herself. You know nothing, Jon Snow. He thought of Arya, her hair as tangled as a bird's nest. I made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell … I want my bride back … I want my bride back … I want my bride back …

"I think we had best change the plan," Jon Snow said.

 

That said, to the Bowen couldn’t arrest him claim, if you read the thread you would know that I have stated Bowen should have let him go and sent a Raven to the Boltons. I just gave a new option as I was sick of repeating myself. If you bothered to read the thread you’d have known that wasn’t my first option, but he is also much calmer than you seem to believe.

Now, yes he thinks I want my bride back three times. That is a common thing to do when mulling over a problem. This isn’t obsessively thinking about Arya. And I’m amazed how so many have missed something really obvious. But I’ll come back to that.

Next we are told that he and Tormund spend the next couple of HOURS discussing plans. Now, if you were reacting purely on emotion, and your emotional state is as bad you imply his is, would you order dinner and spend hours making plans? Would you worry about how said plans could be perceived as treason and take measures to protect the men under your command? Would your focus still be on saving the innocent people North of the wall? ‘cause he does all of these things. All of these rational, strategic decisions were his. So yeah, I am confident that understand what his frame of mind is. I can also follow his story to know what he is doing, and why it’s not even close to what you claim. Let’s start with what we know. The obvious thing people who don't get him miss is he doesn’t need to go to fight Ramsey to get Arya. Last I checked Ramsey doesn't have Arya. And Jon knows this as Ramsey sent him a blood note telling him he doesn’t have her, and that she was alive when she left is also made clear by him demanding her back. So anyone who thinks he is attacking Ramsey because of Arya is wrong, because Jon thinks she's on her way to the wall. Now that we've eliminated Arya as a motivator (Honestly, this didn't even take effort to figure out. You just had to realize what that letter said, and why Jon was reacting to the wanting my bride part back.)

So what is he doing?

Well let’s be rational about this:

He was told that the son of the Warden of North was going to attack the wall.

We have been told, by him, that the wall can’t be defended from the South.

We have been told by him, that the only way to save the wall against a southern attacker would be to ambush them.

We know he can’t meet Ramsey’s demands, and doesn’t even know what some of them (Reek) are talking about. So, compliance is impossible.

We know that Mormont taught him that it’s easier to go out with a large group and let one lost person find you than the other way around, but that the wall is even easier to spot.

We know that the Half Hand taught him that one man’s life/honor means nothing compared to the greater good.

We know that he believes in what the nights watch is doing and wants to defend his men.

 

To me what he is doing is obvious: 

Send as many nights watch away so that the Nights Watch can’t be accused of participating in treason if he fails.

Get as many Free Folk to join him as he can, as he made it clear that he needs a lot of men for his ambush to work.

Announce his intention to attack Winterfell so that cowardly Bowen and co (who he doesn’t trust) will send off a raven. 

This should get Ramsey, who is in a rage over the loss of his prisoners and is known for hunting people and being reckless to come toward the wall at a forced march.

Ambush Ramsey.

Best case scenario, Ramsey is defeated, the threat is removed and he can return to the wall and explain his reasoning to his men.

At the least it would distract him from hunting Arya, giving her a chance to reach the wall, where she is then protected by guest right. And his death removes the threat of the Boltons from the men of the Nights watch.

-----------------

He is sacrificing his honor and possibly his life, to save the organization of the nights watch, if Arya makes it to the wall that is an added bonus, not his main goal.

Yes, he worried about Arya, only an emotionless psychopath wouldn’t. But, his actions were for the watch. If you look at his emotions when he debated joining Rob to now, they aren’t even close. Plus, that was before he was settled and accepted his fate, and was 14, most people grow up a fair amount between 14 and 16(17) his age at the end isn't really clear. He has fully embraced being a man of the watch now, as was shown by him refusing Stannis’s offer. So no, he didn't react emotionally and throw his life away for Arya. The text doesn't support this. @kissdbyfire's post and quotes clearly show where his head was at.

EDIT: As to his thinking stick 'em with the pointy end as he he's dying, that's not obsessing either. He'd thought earlier about how she's fight back, he believes she's on her way to the wall, that Ramsey is also on his way to the wall, and a war between the some of the Night's Watch and the Free folk seems likely. So his worry over her trying to stab someone is perfectly logical.

[Azarial]

15 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I really do not understand why posters keep yapping  about

Granted the kid is to inexperienced and young to lead the NW. I just canna get around the information that Aemon & Sam finagled Jon Snows election.

Yeah, he got elected without even knowing his name was being considered. That would be a shock to an adult with command experience, never mind a 16y old who's never even lead a department of the Nights watch, or a single castle. In his whole life his leadership comes down to training one group of recruits with swords and taking over command of one battle. If that's not under-prepared I don't know what is.

[Lollygag]

16 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Seriously, I am asking. Is there something in the text of five books that leads to the idea that LC Snow/Jon Snow is basing his decisions on his sisters well being? 

I don't think he's influencing his decisions on Arya's well-being, but I do think there's a certain influence maybe subconsciously or emotionally.

Sansa is properly referred to as a Lannister only 2 times in the series: both by Stannis to Jon’s face concerning the claim to Winterfell. After both references, the chapters end without much internal dialog from Jon. In both cases, Jon’s next POV chapter includes internal musings which contain the most vicious statements against the Lannisters in all of his chapters, even more so than after Ned was beheaded and after the Red Wedding. I think the reader is being tripped here to look at where the intense Lannister hate is sourced when Jon likes Tyrion personally and Jon never expressed such hatred immediately after learning of the Ned's beheading and the RW though we know he thought those things off-page. At the time of Jon I—Jon V, he believes that Sansa is only surviving family. He doesn't find out about fArya until Jon VI and we find out that Jon believed up to this point that Arya died in King’s Landing with Ned. It's no coincidence that fArya comes up right after Stannis shining a harsh light on Jon's reality with his Lady Lannisters.

 

ADWD Jon I: "By right Winterfell should go to my sister Sansa."
"Lady Lannister, you mean? Are you so eager to see the Imp perched on your father's seat? I promise you, that will not happen whilst I live, Lord Snow."

ADWD Jon II: "At Winterfell, Tommen fought my brother Bran with wooden swords," Jon said, remembering. "He wore so much padding he looked like a stuffed goose. Bran knocked him to the ground." He went to the window and threw the shutters open. The air outside was cold and bracing, though the sky was a dull grey. "Yet Bran's dead, and pudgy pink-faced Tommen is sitting on the Iron Throne, with a crown nestled amongst his golden curls."
……..
"Well, he will not want it said that Stannis rode to the defense of the realm whilst King Tommen was playing with his toys. That would bring scorn down upon House Lannister."
"It's death and destruction I want to bring down upon House Lannister, not scorn." Jon read from the letter. "The Night's Watch takes no part in the wars of the Seven Kingdoms. Our oaths are sworn to the realm, and the realm now stands in dire peril. Stannis Baratheon aids us against our foes from beyond the Wall, though we are not his men …"

—————————————————————————————————————————————————————————

ADWD Jon IV: Jon said, "Winterfell belongs to my sister Sansa."
"I have heard all I need to hear of Lady Lannister and her claim." The king set the cup aside. "You could bring the north to me. Your father's bannermen would rally to the son of Eddard Stark.

ADWD Jon V: "Fight for you?" This voice was thickly accented. Sigorn, the young Magnar of Thenn, spoke the Common Tongue haltingly at best. "Not fight for you. Kill you better. Kill all you."
The raven flapped its wings. "Kill, kill."
Sigorn's father, the old Magnar, had been crushed beneath the falling stair during his attack on Castle Black. I would feel the same if someone asked me to make common cause with the Lannisters, Jon told himself.

 

 

Going into more detail:

Stannis’ “Lady Lannister” is rubbing it in Jon’s face that the only family he currently believes to be alive is forever lost to him hence all family is now lost to him. Jon’s refusal to take Winterfell isn’t just because he’s being a nice guy, it’s in hopes that he’ll have the last of his family back in his life. Jon gets on well with Tyrion, Tyrion isn’t so fond of Tywin, so it’s probably a hope that he’s been clinging to since hearing about the marriage.

Stannis’ “Lady Lannister” is crushing Jon’s hopes of Tyrion taking Winterfell and Sansa coming back home. Jon’s realizing that all of his family is forever lost to him, even though he knows Sansa is still alive.  Hence Jon’s escalating hatred of the Lannisters. When Jon joined the NW, he imagined his life like Benjen's: he would be a ranger yet still come home fairly frequently to be with his family. It gains more weight when Jon becomes LC as a tremendous amount of pressure comes off Jon in fighting the Others if Winterfell is held by Sansa and Tyrion with whom Jon gets on very well and is very sympathetic to the NW. Instead of just Jon and the NW, the fight becomes backed by Winterfell and the entire North and the loss of this shouldn't be underestimated for a kid who's lonely, struggling, and out of his league and facing almost hopeless odds.

On reread, the loneliness of Jon stands out. Ygritte is dead, his friends and allies leave him and he thinks of home often, of his family. Jon VI: The great stronghold of House Stark was a scorched desolation. All my memories are poisoned. So when Jon gets news of fArya later in the same chapter, it’s not just because he’s so close to Arya, it’s because he’d just given up hope of any family left thanks to Stannis, and Arya represents renewed hope of not just having Arya back, but of not being alone in the world.

I’m really not looking forward to reading about his finding out she’s really Jeyne Poole. He thought he lost Arya, then gets told she's alive just to get crushed again when finding out she's Jeyne meaning Arya is truly dead. He finds out his entire family is lost to him, then finds out Arya is alive only to realize he's all alone again. I just read a character go through this in another series and if GRRM treats it realistically which he will, it will be a crushing blow. Cruel.

 

 

[Tagganaro]

16 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Can someone help me with this idea of LC Snow's obsession with his sister Arya?

I may be thick and dumb as a stump.

Seriously, I am asking. Is there something in the text of five books that leads to the idea that LC Snow/Jon Snow is basing his decisions on his sisters well being?

 

People just making nonsense up.  Jon barely thinks about Arya in his final chapters pre-Pink Letter...he is you know more concerned with running the NW, dealing with the wildling issue, managing the hostages, negotiating with Selyse.  

14 hours ago, Wolf's Bane said:

Mel presented the idea but it was Jon's decision whether to proceed or not.  He chose to proceed.  To make his guilt even worse, Jon was in charge and he sent Dolorous to fetch the women from mole town to help Mance Rayder.  There is no way you could have read the books and claim that Jon had nothing to do with with the Arya rescue mission.  Jon was in charge.  Mel and Mance could not go along with it without Jon's permission and cooperation.  Jon was not a passive participant in this illegal mission, he was an active participant.  He was mission commander.  Mance did exactly what Jon told him to do, he removed the girl he thought was Arya from Winterfell.  Why did Mance do that?  Because he was working for Jon and that was what Jon told him to do.

This is fine.  It was Jon's decision to proceed, we can agree on this.  We can also agree that in the conception of Jon's duties to the NW, this is a mistake.  Jon himself thinks it is after the fact.  That is fine.  Jon bears responsibility for it.

But to say Jon is "mission commander" and Mance is doing what "Jon told him to do" is just flat-out wrong.  He is not doing what Jon told him to.  Jon himself thinks numerous times upon Alys's arrival at Castle Black "where is Mance and what is he doing?  What is Melisandre up to?"  Jon's mission to Mance was for Mance to retrieve a grey girl on a dying horse from Longlake.  That was it.  That was the extent of Jon's knowledge of the mission parameters.  That girl ended up being Alys Karstark, who showed up at Castle Black all on her own, with absolutely no mention of Mance.  Jon is as mystified as anyone by this.

[Tagganaro]

On 6/1/2018 at 4:32 PM, Azarial said:

I almost wonder if their little group didn't send someone to warn the Hill tribes that Jon was going to do this, thinking they would stop him. That would explain him not acting sooner, and calling it treason in front of them as well as them both showing up together with the wet nurses. Jon did find that odd. But, when the hill tribes sided with Jon they were stuck.

Sorry didn't see this earlier.  I don't think the Hill tribes really play into what Marsh is thinking and doing.  They are relatively minor powers in the grand scheme of things and it's not like they are remotely powerful at the Wall.  If anything, Flint and Norrey would play more into the whole Grand Northern Conspiracy angle than anything Marsh and his conspirators would want at the Wall.  I still have no idea why they would show up simply for the wedding of Alys/Sigorn and bring a wet nurse for Gilly's baby...again my only explanation is this Grand Northern Conspiracy idea and them wanting to get a look at the guy who looks like their beloved Ned running around with a direwolf. 

Quote

 

So Bowen may be having trouble getting support. If a King, two Petty Lords and your Lord commander all think something is a good idea, and they have popular support stopping them without committing treason would be very difficult, if not impossible. And Jon was talking about the people fleeing to Hardhome and the need to rescue them right after meeting with Tormund as the plans were being finalized with Tormund right after they were let through, as that is when the pink letter arrived. So Bowen may have thought the best option was to just wait it out. He is essentially a coward, who wouldn't resort to stabbing unless he had to. Plus all of Janos's men were at East watch, Allister needed time to arrive. He may have expected Val to fail, and figured Stannis would deal with Jon and could have been getting men together at Eastwatch since Cotter Pyke was gone. Three days isn't much time to get a force together, and march them from Eastwatch to castle black. And given that Jon sent people all over the place, it could mean they needed to round the builders up first. 

So lack of support at castle black and time are my best guess.

 

 Yes, I think this definitely plays into it.  Bowen for sure lacks support, as mentioned before I would guess the NW is relatively divided down the middle between support for Jon and support for Bowen, with the majority of the rangers (and thus the better swordfighters and military men) siding with Jon.  That is not a recipe for Bowen to attack Jon and get away with it.

And again, at the end of the day I don't consider Bowen to be without his merits.  I honestly believe that he honestly believes he's acting in the Night's Watch's best interests all the time- he is just clouded by his prejudices against wildlings and his fear of the Lannisters.  To that end, again I see his stabbing of Jon as a desperate act of last resort- hence his crying while doing so.  He doesn't truly want to do it, he just feels he needs to.

[Azarial]

1 hour ago, Lollygag said:

Sansa is properly referred to as a Lannister only 2 times in the series: both by Stannis to Jon’s face concerning the claim to Winterfell. After both references, the chapters end without much internal dialog from Jon. In both cases, Jon’s next POV chapter includes internal musings which contain the most vicious statements against the Lannisters in all of his chapters, even more so than after Ned was beheaded and after the Red Wedding. I think the reader is being tripped here to look at where the intense Lannister hate is sourced when Jon likes Tyrion personally and Jon never expressed such hatred immediately after learning of the Ned's beheading and the RW though we know he thought those things off-page. At the time of Jon I—Jon V, he believes that Sansa is only surviving family. He doesn't find out about fArya until Jon VI and we find out that Jon believed up to this point that Arya died in King’s Landing with Ned. It's no coincidence that fArya comes up right after Stannis shining a harsh light on Jon's reality with his Lady Lannisters...

 

Interesting. I always took it more as he hadn't had a chance to react to the death of Ned, Rob, Bran, Rickon and Arya. And that his hatred was accumulative as he'd never grieved or dealt with his feelings in any way. I hadn't thought about how his feelings towards Tyrion would impact his reaction. And how that would change after he learns that Tyrion killed his father and was accused of killing Joffery, as that did shock him. And how he was holding out hope for his family to come and back him up. Makes sense though.

If I remember right the death and destruction to house Lannister bit came after Tyrion fled, and Sansa went missing? If so it could indicate that he wasn't willing to acknowledge those feeling with Sansa and Tyrion in the picture, but is now that they are gone. Tyrion killing Tywin could also have Jon wondering how evil they are that Tyrion would do such a thing, since he has trouble believing it when news reaches the wall of Tywins death. 

Quote

On reread, the loneliness of Jon stands out. Ygritte is dead, his friends and allies leave him and he thinks of home often, of his family. Jon VI: The great stronghold of House Stark was a scorched desolation. All my memories are poisoned. So when Jon gets news of fArya later in the same chapter, it’s not just because he’s so close to Arya, it’s because he’d just given up hope of any family left thanks to Stannis, and Arya represents renewed hope of not just having Arya back, but of not being alone in the world.

His loneliness is awful. It ties into what @Clegane'sPup was saying about him being to young and unprepared to command the NW. He has no idea how to build a command base that will support him. He went to far in trying to avoid yes men, and wound up isolating himself. Where a more experienced leader would have appointed new men to the leadership positions, thus creating his sense of family within the leadership of the watch, that he is lacking. 

Quote

I’m really not looking forward to reading about his finding out she’s really Jeyne Poole. He thought he lost Arya, then gets told she's alive just to get crushed again when finding out she's Jeyne meaning Arya is truly dead. He finds out his entire family is lost to him, then finds out Arya is alive only to realize he's all alone again. I just read a character go through this in another series and if GRRM treats it realistically which he will, it will be a crushing blow. Cruel.

 

 

1 hour ago, Tagganaro said:

This is fine.  It was Jon's decision to proceed, we can agree on this.  We can also agree that in the conception of Jon's duties to the NW, this is a mistake.  Jon himself thinks it is after the fact.  That is fine.  Jon bears responsibility for it.

But to say Jon is "mission commander" and Mance is doing what "Jon told him to do" is just flat-out wrong.  He is not doing what Jon told him to.  Jon himself thinks numerous times upon Alys's arrival at Castle Black "where is Mance and what is he doing?  What is Melisandre up to?"  Jon's mission to Mance was for Mance to retrieve a grey girl on a dying horse from Longlake.  That was it.  That was the extent of Jon's knowledge of the mission parameters.  That girl ended up being Alys Karstark, who showed up at Castle Black all on her own, with absolutely no mention of Mance.  Jon is as mystified as anyone by this.

I need to re-read the section where Jon and Stannis make a deal again. Was it that Jon got the lives of the Free Folk, and got to use them to man the wall, but they were still Stannis's prisoners? or are they Jons men 100%. I thought it was that Jon got to use them, and Stannis got willing soldiers not slave soldiers (essentially) but that they were still Stannis's. But, could be wrong, a small difference in the wording will matter. I thought they were still prisoners, unless they agreed to take the black based on how Mance describes them as penned up in Moles town. And that means Mel, as Stannis's second in command can request to have some brought to her and that it's not really up to Jon. But, either way Jon worries about where Mance is, and didn't send anyone to Winterfell so the end result is the same. I just got the impression from the Mel/Mance conversation that Jon didn't have a say, he was allowed to know as a form of manipulation to gain his trust nothing more. 

I know that he threatened to behead Rattleshirt if he tried to leave without his permission. But Stannis had given him Rattleshirt, so he was his to command or execute. But once it was revealed that he was Mance, and Mance is not who Stannis gave him, what Jon is able to do becomes murky. The other issue is that Jon thinks he would be more valuable alive, because he has the most info on the real enemy. What makes me think he has no say is this:

Quote

"...I told you that the Lord of Light would hear your prayers. You wanted a way to save your sister and still hold fast to the honor that means so much to you, the vows you swore before your wooden god." She pointed with a pale finger. "There he stands, Lord Snow. Arya's deliverance. A gift from the Lord of Light ... and me."

She is offering this as a gift, not asking permission. She essentially says we will save her for you, and take all responsibility. Sure Jon could have said no, but they would have done it anyway. That was the whole point of Mance telling him his guards were a bad jape, if getting to Jon would be easy escaping a castle with no walls is a joke. But in the end it's semantics. Jon accepted the gift, but it was Mel and Mance who are responsible for the mission. I think we can all agree on that  

18 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

Sorry didn't see this earlier.  I don't think the Hill tribes really play into what Marsh is thinking and doing.  They are relatively minor powers in the grand scheme of things and it's not like they are remotely powerful at the Wall.  If anything, Flint and Norrey would play more into the whole Grand Northern Conspiracy angle than anything Marsh and his conspirators would want at the Wall.  I still have no idea why they would show up simply for the wedding of Alys/Sigorn and bring a wet nurse for Gilly's baby...again my only explanation is this Grand Northern Conspiracy idea and them wanting to get a look at the guy who looks like their beloved Ned running around with a direwolf. 

It is more likely, plus I just like the GNC, but I like to consider all options. 

18 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

 Yes, I think this definitely plays into it.  Bowen for sure lacks support, as mentioned before I would guess the NW is relatively divided down the middle between support for Jon and support for Bowen, with the majority of the rangers (and thus the better swordfighters and military men) siding with Jon.  That is not a recipe for Bowen to attack Jon and get away with it.

And again, at the end of the day I don't consider Bowen to be without his merits.  I honestly believe that he honestly believes he's acting in the Night's Watch's best interests all the time- he is just clouded by his prejudices against wildlings and his fear of the Lannisters.  To that end, again I see his stabbing of Jon as a desperate act of last resort- hence his crying while doing so.  He doesn't truly want to do it, he just feels he needs to.

Yes, we agree on all of this.

[Lollygag]

13 minutes ago, Azarial said:

Interesting. I always took it more as he hadn't had a chance to react to the death of Ned, Rob, Bran, Rickon and Arya. And that his hatred was accumulative as he'd never grieved or dealt with his feelings in any way. I hadn't thought about how his feelings towards Tyrion would impact his reaction. And how that would change after he learns that Tyrion killed his father and was accused of killing Joffery, as that did shock him. And how he was holding out hope for his family to come and back him up. Makes sense though.

If I remember right the death and destruction to house Lannister bit came after Tyrion fled, and Sansa went missing? If so it could indicate that he wasn't willing to acknowledge those feeling with Sansa and Tyrion in the picture, but is now that they are gone. Tyrion killing Tywin could also have Jon wondering how evil they are that Tyrion would do such a thing, since he has trouble believing it when news reaches the wall of Tywins death. 

I've noticed that the worst of grief is often off-page as characters typically get the news off-page. This is something I especially appreciate about GRRM's characters as it keeps things less angsty which wears thin quickly. Unless I'm told otherwise somehow, I assume that they went through some type of grieving. With the tragedy and death rate of this series, being inside the heads of all of these characters as their mourning is the most intense would be impossible to read.

It's hard to know when he finds out something if at all unless we're told directly. I'll have to keep an eye out on rereads for this.

[Azarial]

21 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

I've noticed that the worst of grief is often off-page as characters typically get the news off-page. This is something I especially appreciate about GRRM's characters as it keeps things less angsty which wears thin quickly. Unless I'm told otherwise somehow, I assume that they went through some type of grieving. With the tragedy and death rate of this series, being inside the heads of all of these characters as their mourning is the most intense would be impossible to read.

It's hard to know when he finds out something if at all unless we're told directly. I'll have to keep an eye out on rereads for this.

True, lots is off page. Jon was shown as barely eating or sleeping as he was dealing with so much, that is why I assumed it was all just bottled up. Likely some combination of off page reaction, and no real grieving or dealing with it due to time and age/lack of coping skills.

Yeah, I'm going to pay closer attention to when he finds out about each death/disppearance and look for some more subtle reactions from him I may have missed in the past. 

[Lollygag]

Just now, Azarial said:

True, lots is off page. Jon was shown as barely eating or sleeping as he was dealing with so much, that is why I assumed it was all just bottled up. Likely some combination of off page reaction, and no real grieving or dealing with it due to time and age/lack of coping skills.

Yeah, I'm going to pay closer attention to when he finds out about each death/disppearance and look for some more subtle reactions from him I may have missed in the past. 

This subtle handling of characters is what I really love about the series. It's made other books more disappointing to read.

[The Commentator]

16 hours ago, WildlingWitch said:

Even without Jon's permission Mance still would have found a way to leave the Knights Watch. That's what he's good at sneaking in and out of places he even makes a point of saying that he could have sneaked into Jon's chambers without anyone knowing.

Also I know this has been argued but Jon did not agree for Mance to go to Winterell. Yes he obviously agreed to the mission but he agreed to let Mance go to the Lake and when the grey girl finally rocked up at the Watch he questioned why Mance wasn't with her.

But I didn't really want to get into this argument again my post was supposed to be more or a "we all have our irrational hate characters but we can't let that hate stop us from enjoying the story by ignoring whats written'

Not if Jon had done his job and executed Mance.  That is what he should have done when you consider all of the offenses that Mance Rayder has committed.  To execute Slynt and then later to basically give Mance Rayder the pass is a travesty to justice.  Mance is guilty of far more than Slynt.  And you know, Mance is still a sworn brother of the NW.  So yeah, he is technically subordinate to Jon.  Desertion does not erase the oaths that he took in the past.  Mance Rayder was a ranger of the watch.  

By the way, not all of the criticisms of Jon is based on hate.  There are very, very good reasons to criticize Jon.  It's not bashing, it's criticism that is deserved.  Okay? 

 

[Azarial]

2 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

This subtle handling of characters is what I really love about the series. It's made other books more disappointing to read.

Yes, reading pages and pages of grief would be awful. And these time gaps give us more to infer and speculate on as well.

[Azarial]

1 minute ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Not if Jon had done his job and executed Mance.  That is what he should have done when you consider all of the offenses that Mance Rayder has committed.  To execute Slynt and then later to basically give Mance Rayder the pass is a travesty to justice.  Mance is guilty of far more than Slynt.  And you know, Mance is still a sworn brother of the NW.  So yeah, he is technically subordinate to Jon.  Desertion does not erase the oaths that he took in the past.  Mance Rayder was a ranger of the watch.  

By the way, not all of the criticisms of Jon is based on hate.  There are very, very good reasons to criticize Jon.  It's not bashing, it's criticism that is deserved.  Okay? 

 

I for one, wouldn't complain about deserved criticism, or even just an event that can be viewed two ways having the alternative pointed out, but much of what was on this thread wasn't criticism it was blatant hatred with no basis in the facts. Jon deserves to die because he broke guest right by sending Mance to Winerfell is one thing I've read. That is fan fiction at best. Yet it was followed by a page of people going this is so true! That is the type of comment we are complaining about. Followed by another two pages of why he sucks, when the original post says this isn't an opinion thread, stick to the topic. It's frustrating and prevents discussion.

It's not quite as simple as Mance did more wrong than Slynt. Mance abandoned the watch, no one disputes this. The standard punishment is death. No one, including Jon disputes that either. But, Mance was Stannis's prisoner not Jon's. That's the first issue. The second is that Mance knows a lot about the Others. He shared some of that with Stannis, but Stannis never let him talk to Jon and didn't pass that info on. So letting him live gives Jon access to information he desperately needs. So the greater good of the watch learning about their enemy outweighs the strict adherence to the standard punishment. (Many people fault Ned for doing just this. They can't both be wrong.) Also the fake execution of Mance was seen to have done more harm than good in terms of rescuing the Free Folk. This was shown in the grove of nine when the Free Folk were scared to come back to the wall despite some of them being near death. Jon knows Mance has value.

Now, Mel sent him away and Jon didn't stop her. That can be criticized as he 100% should have locked him in a windowless cell and gotten all the info he could from him. I believe he was being naive and fully expected him to return with Arya. He's a very lonely 16/17 year old. He wanted to have some hope. It doesn't warrant the hatred he receives. Having trust in the wrong person doesn't deserve a death sentence. Every single character in this series has trusted someone they shouldn't have at some point. Rescuing a girl from the wilderness isn't the same as attacking the Boltons. The stuff in the pink letter, you stole my bride, you stole my Reek, he didn't do any of that. If Mance had rescued, not stolen, Arya when and where he was supposed to she wouldn't have been married. And the Boltons wouldn't know where she went or who had her.

Once at the wall Jon would know she was fake and if they look to the wall, Jon could honestly say I've seen no sign of her. I've seen Alyce and Jayne, that's it. If it was Arya, he could say she was picked up in the wilderness and is under the protection of guest right. The northern lords won't back the Boltons in trying to retrieve her from her brother, to give her to a man they despise for murdering his last wife. The ones with hostages will stall, the ones without will come to aid of the Nights Watch.

The fact that Mance went rogue is on Mance. He wanted to be Bael the bard, and mess with the Boltons on top of rescuing the girl. He also seems to have one or more of the stolen daughters of the lords with him, and seems to have a ploy to rally the north and Free folk that Jon knows nothing about. The tale of Bael was told by Ygritte, so he has no reason to think Mance is obsessed with this tale. We know because his fake name is Able, but Jon doesn't. Maybe he wanted to steal her for himself to lay claim to Winterfell, that certainly wouldn't be Jon's intention. So did he mess up, yep, be boring and unrealistic if he didn't. But it wasn't not killing a valuable source of info that was his mistake, it was not probing the guy for info and not letting him our of his sight that was the mistake, and it doesn't warrant being stabbed to death with no trial, no chance to explain. It was murder, it wasn't what needed to be done. 

 

[Nevets]

3 hours ago, Lollygag said:

I’m really not looking forward to reading about his finding out she’s really Jeyne Poole. He thought he lost Arya, then gets told she's alive just to get crushed again when finding out she's Jeyne meaning Arya is truly dead. He finds out his entire family is lost to him, then finds out Arya is alive only to realize he's all alone again. I just read a character go through this in another series and if GRRM treats it realistically which he will, it will be a crushing blow. Cruel.

That's assuming he finds out she's Jeyne Poole.  If she arrives while he is comatose/"dead" he he wouldn't be in a position to meet her.  With Ramsay apparently on the warpath, neither she nor her escort is going to be inclined to linger, so traveling on to Eastwatch and Braavos is quite likely.   Which means he will likely think he just missed her.

1 hour ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

By the way, not all of the criticisms of Jon is based on hate.  There are very, very good reasons to criticize Jon.  It's not bashing, it's criticism that is deserved.  Okay? 

I have no problem with criticism, even as a Jon fan,, but a lot of it descends into criticism.  Suggesting that sending Mance to rescue Arya at Long Lake is illegal or unwise is perfectly reasonable.  It may well be, although I don't really have a problem with it, even if it is.  However, saying that he deliberately picked a fight with the Boltons is going too far.   He is doing what he can to avoid open conflict with the Boltons.  That's why it is a covert op in the first place.  Of course, once Mance is caught at Winterfell  (something Jon did not authorize), Jon is stuck with the consequences, which include a fight with the Boltons.  But that was certainly not his expectation, much less his intent.

However, the OP asks us not to litigate the past, but to divine the future.  And whatever Bowen Marsh's justifications for his attack on Jon, I think he has attacked before he was ready, and doesn't have a follow-up plan in place.  as such, the combination of the wildlings present and Melisandre and Selyse's 50 men will probably keep the Night's Watch in the hands of Jon's allies.  And given the nature of the weapons used (daggers), and the likelihood of Jon wearing think, protective clothing, such as a winter coat, and a leather jack, or even real mail, mean that his possibility of survival is quite high.

[kissdbyfire]

5 hours ago, Azarial said:

I’m guessing the reason some of us think Jon isn’t acting just for Arya but others do comes down to how we interpret this:

 

The passage you quoted - which happens to be one of my absolute fave in the whole series - is one of many 'lines' that split the fandom clear in two IMO. 

Usually those who consider this to be (one of) the moment(s) Jon broke his oath/committed treason for Arya are the ones who support the strictest adherence to vows and oaths, no matter what. 

The other camp, where I have both my feet firmly planted, thinks things can't be that rigid. Sometimes doing the right thing and doing the lawful thing aren't the same. Martin even makes a point of spelling it out for us. "If the 8-yr-old King tells you to saddle the horse, do it. If he asks you to kill the horse, come to me" (paraprasing). 

The passage you quote is Jon choosing love, choosing honour over duty. And that is fucking spot on in my book.