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Meanwhile back at the Wall


Clegane'sPup

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My thing about the spearwives is this:

  • They can't be all dead. Mance brought how many of them to Winterfell? Five? One died and the other one has either been captured/tortured/killed, killed, captured/tortured/saved for later or has managed to hoodwink the soldiers. But for how long? What of the other three? PS: I doubt Mance has been captured. No way. Not that easily.
  • Why does Mance need them at Winterfell with him at this very moment of all moments. And when I say them, I don't mean them in regards to their gender. I mean why did Mance specifically call for these specific Free Folk women? He had the pick of the litter, male and female.

There's something very, very special about Winterfell. And Mance seems to be the only one who knows or cares enough about it. I'm looking forward to learning about its magics (i.e. why should there always be a Stark in Winterfell and what happens if there isn't) in The Winds of Winter.

Oh and there's another thing which I haven't seen discussed in this thread.

Where the hell is Benjen Stark and who the hell is sneaking around Winterfell killing people? Is it Benjen, Wyman Manderly, another one of Mance's spies, a Faceless Man, one of Littlefinger's footpads, a skinchanger, one of Varys' birds? Is Ramsay completely losing control of himself and forgetting?

Good Lord, I've just realized we are going to need another POV inside Winterfell. Either GRRM is going to have to turn Wyman, Barbrey Dustin or one of the Boltons into the POV or he's going to have to wheel 'n deal Yara or Theon back into Winterfell. Because the other candidates (Bran, Mel, Sansa, Davos) are far, far away with a full plate of their own.

If we're talking about a vote, I choose Lady Barbrey.

Speaking about Yara and Theon? Do you think Stannis will keep Yara and send Theon off to the Wall? Will they make a break for the Iron Islands together? Will Theon make a break for it and leave Yara? Will Stannis lose one of them to the Boltons? Will Stannis send one of them on a mission to take the Dreadfort? Or will they both provide an inside look into the Baratheon side?

Because if Theon goes to the Wall, then you have an interesting chemistry set to work with: Theon/Melisandre, Theon/Jon, Theon/Cotter Pyke, Theon/Jeyne, Theon/the Others.

@kissedby fire If Theon goes to the Wall, he can definitely ID Jeyne as a fake. And if no one believes him in Stannis' camp and he ends up at the Dreadfort instead of the Wall, then Old Nan (who is last seen there) will be able to ID Jeyne.

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 Boy this thread has been moving along at quite a clip ...  I wanted to reply to one or two things this morning but had no time.. now where are we ...

On 5/31/2018 at 3:07 PM, Clegane'sPup said:

Marsh is a follower. Alliser has been sent on a ranging.      BUT ---- iffin a person subscribes to the penguin theory, Alliser may have been hanging out in the wormways beneath CB and whispering in Marsh's ear. :dunno:

:D:D.. I've been spouting this for years.. What makes it the penguin theory ?... Is that a Batman reference, or...? I noticed there was some discussion of the accursed pink letter and wanted to chime in. For years I've thought one person wrote it (probably Stannis, IMO, though cases can be made for others) but the conspirators at the wall intercepted it and re-wrote it, making changes to suit their purposes before giving it to Jon.

Yes, I think Alliser is there (the brain behind the conspirators) and suspect he is the editor. I've cited many reasons in the past, which I won't enumerate fully, unless asked.

 But there's one I only noticed recently on a re-read. First from Theon, ADWD...

Quote

"I see you all want blood," the Lord of the Dreadfort said. Maester Rhodry stood beside him, a raven on his arm. The bird's black plumage shone like coal oil in the torchlight. Wet, Theon realized. And in his lordship's hand, a parchment. That will be wet as well. Dark wings, dark words.

Later in Jon XIII... Of all the things Jon notices about the parchment, wet is not one of them... 

Quote

 

"As you say, m'lord, only … Clydas don't look his proper self … he's more white than pink, if you get my meaning … and he's shaking."

"Dark wings, dark words," muttered Tormund. "Isn't that what you kneelers say?"

<snip>

Bastard, was the only word written outside the scroll. No Lord Snow or Jon Snow or Lord Commander. Simply Bastard. And the letter was sealed with a smear of hard pink wax. "You were right to come at once," Jon said. You were right to be afraid. He cracked the seal, flattened the parchment, and read.

<snip>

He handed Tormund Giantsbane the letter. "Here, see for yourself."

The wildling gave the letter a dubious look and handed it right back. "Feels nasty … but Tormund Thunderfist had better things to do than learn to make papers talk at him. They never have any good to say, now do they?"

"Not often," Jon Snow admitted. Dark wings, dark words. Perhaps there was more truth to those wise old sayings than he'd known. 

 

The raven that arrived at castle Black would have to have flown many times farther than Arnolf's raven to Roose. That parchment should be wet.

Then this last..

Quote

I should talk with Melisandre after I see the queen, he thought. If she could see a raven in a storm, she can find Ramsay Snow for me. Then he heard the shouting …

.. serves not only as a hint at Jon's intended ambush, but it prods us to think about the condition of the raven and by extension, the parchment. (Or it would, if all hell wasn't breaking loose.)

3 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

PS: I doubt Mance has been captured. No way. Not that easily.

Although Mance appears as him self, he had to be wearing Mel's ruby as he left Castle Black, so he has it with him. He can take on Rattleshirt's appearance and fade into the background. Squirrel planned to go to the godswood - she can pull a Wex. Rowan is probably an Umber. Hother may have a contingency plan for her. I think Myrtle is a man (The Liddle, to be precise) and if "she" gathered up one change of clothes for the others (by actually doing some washing) she may have gathered up more. ... So, "she" becomes a man again. I bet Frenya would fall on he spear before being taken, if she could.... that leaves Willow (and I don't know why she's Willow  Witch Eye).. perhaps Lady Dustin could claim her as one of her servants, or... ? The others always seem to have had another plan (or a plan b). There is a chance that all but Holly (RIP) and Frenya (gulp) could evade capture. 

3 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Where the hell is Benjen Stark and who the hell is sneaking around Winterfell killing people? 

Not much time, now ... but I think Benjen is the Hooded man (and there is a Stark in WF)... but Ramsay has done most of the killings, except Little walder (Big Walder  probably at  Roose's direction)

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8 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

My thing about the spearwives is this:

  • They can't be all dead. Mance brought how many of them to Winterfell? Five? One died and the other one has either been captured/tortured/killed, killed, captured/tortured/saved for later or has managed to hoodwink the soldiers. But for how long? What of the other three? PS: I doubt Mance has been captured. No way. Not that easily.
  • Why does Mance need them at Winterfell with him at this very moment of all moments. And when I say them, I don't mean them in regards to their gender. I mean why did Mance specifically call for these specific Free Folk women? He had the pick of the litter, male and female.

There's something very, very special about Winterfell. And Mance seems to be the only one who knows or cares enough about it. I'm looking forward to learning about its magics (i.e. why should there always be a Stark in Winterfell and what happens if there isn't) in The Winds of Winter.

There is a lot of GNC stuff about the spearwives- I recall a theory about one of them being Crowfood Umber's missing daughter who was abducted by wildlings when she was young.  The fact that one of the "wildlings" snaps at Theon for saying "Winter is coming" by screaming at him "Don't say Lord Eddard's words" is....highly suspicious to say the least.  Have we seen any other wildling show that kind of loyalty or passion towards the Starks?  

As far as magic goes, perhaps Mance is seeking out the crypts to find the real Horn of Joramun?  Just throwing stuff out there haha.  

Oh and there's another thing which I haven't seen discussed in this thread.

Quote

 

Where the hell is Benjen Stark and who the hell is sneaking around Winterfell killing people? Is it Benjen, Wyman Manderly, another one of Mance's spies, a Faceless Man, one of Littlefinger's footpads, a skinchanger, one of Varys' birds? Is Ramsay completely losing control of himself and forgetting?


 

My own sense has always been that it's one of the Northmen that Ned sent out with Beric who is now spying for Stoneheart.  People seem pretty attached to the theory though that the Hooded Man Theon sees is actually like a fight club Tyler Durden kind of thing where Theon is actually "talking" to himself.  Theon has just so snapped that he's created another identity.  I don't buy that but it seems to be pretty popular.

5 hours ago, bemused said:

Although Mance appears as him self, he had to be wearing Mel's ruby as he left Castle Black, so he has it with him. He can take on Rattleshirt's appearance and fade into the background. Squirrel planned to go to the godswood - she can pull a Wex. Rowan is probably an Umber. Hother may have a contingency plan for her. I think Myrtle is a man (The Liddle, to be precise) and if "she" gathered up one change of clothes for the others (by actually doing some washing) she may have gathered up more. ... So, "she" becomes a man again. I bet Frenya would fall on he spear before being taken, if she could.... that leaves Willow (and I don't know why she's Willow  Witch Eye).. perhaps Lady Dustin could claim her as one of her servants, or... ? The others always seem to have had another plan (or a plan b). There is a chance that all but Holly (RIP) and Frenya (gulp) could evade capture. 

 

Ah yes that's it Rowan is the one who throws the Stark words back at Theon.  Out of curiosity, why do you think Myrtle is a man?  Is there a suggestive description or something?  

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3 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

@Jabar of House Titan, lots to reply to but it will have to wait. But I simply had to say this: Yara who? No such character in the story! The abomination invented that silly name.  

Resultado de imagen para laugh facepalm gif

I meant Asha. #Busted

11 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

My own sense has always been that it's one of the Northmen that Ned sent out with Beric who is now spying for Stoneheart.  People seem pretty attached to the theory though that the Hooded Man Theon sees is actually like a fight club Tyler Durden kind of thing where Theon is actually "talking" to himself.  Theon has just so snapped that he's created another identity.  I don't buy that but it seems to be pretty popular.

Of course. That makes so much sense, it's a part of my official headcanon right now.

Of course, Stoneheart would be gunning for the Boltons. It makes so much sense. It's just the Freys pissed her off more than the Boltons and the Lannisters did. She probably plans to head for Winterfell once the Riverlands are rid of the Lannisters and the Freys...but not before she finishes up with Jaime.

16 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

Out of curiosity, why do you think Myrtle is a man?  Is there a suggestive description or something?  

@bemused Yeah, I'm curious to find out why you think Myrtle is the Liddle. Surprisingly enough, it doesn't surprise me in the slightest. But why?

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To many pages since I posted last to grab quotes from people. Just one thing I noticed. Jamie didn't figure out that Jayne was a fake. He knew before ever seeing her and was looking at her with that in mind, noticing things others might find off. Arya went missing and was presumed dead, a fact he is well aware of, and no we weren't shown Cersei telling him, but it's safe to infer that she did.

That said, while I can see Mance and co not noticing she is fake; as they had the least exposure to her, I do think some of the Northern Lords know. Lady Dustin, clearly knows. Manderly seems to know. I suspect the Umbers know. Now, would all of them know? Probably not. The wedding was at night, and she hasn't been seen since. So lots of them wouldn't have gotten a good look at her. And I'm sure it was done this way for that very reason. The ones who know, will be the ones who signed the letters, and were at Barrowton as they'd have more opportunity to have seen her. 

I can't make up my mind on what I think on the pink letter, beyond it being a fake. I just know I've seen phrases that link to Mance and wonder if it ties into his ploy somehow, but have no theories on it. I also can't rule Stannis fully in or out. The altering it theory is interesting, if it was written in blood it could work. We have no indication one way of the other of what it was written in. I figured it being dry was just because it was out of the storm longer. As the weather at the wall wasn't bad. 

I keep coming back to Jamies dream on the stump as clue for the crypts. As Brienne asks what is down there and he rules out everything but wolves and doom. So the horn being down their seems possible, as that would link to doom. But I just don't know.

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23 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

My own sense has always been that it's one of the Northmen that Ned sent out with Beric who is now spying for Stoneheart.  People seem pretty attached to the theory though that the Hooded Man Theon sees is actually like a fight club Tyler Durden kind of thing where Theon is actually "talking" to himself.  Theon has just so snapped that he's created another identity.  I don't buy that but it seems to be pretty popular.

I never bought the Theon thing either. I always liked the theory that it was the man sent into the neck to bring home Neds remains. Especially with all the talk about his bones, and missing swords in these chapters. Hmm, missing swords. No need for them to be there because of a horn. Well, other than denying guest right, but really... this is why Winterfell is so difficult to pin down. So many mystery elements.

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@be

Too much activity since I last posted to quote so I will simply put down some thoughts.

Judging by his actions, Mance is unaware that Arya is fake.  I doubt that he would have gotten a good look at her at the feast for Robert, as he was some distance away.  Being the younger daughter, she would have been of least interest, as well.

Nobody in the North has seen Arya for over 2 years.  At all.  And those that did see her did so briefly or are dead.  O suspect that the best description most people have of her is "younger and darker than her sister, has Jon's coloring.  Bit of a wild child".  I doubt they even know exactly how old she really is.  And there are no pictures to compare her to.In this case, I expect that "close enough" is good enough.

While we know that Ned took Robb, Jon, and Theon with him around the North, I doubt he took the younger children.  There wouldn't be reason to.  Robbis his heir, and Jon and Theon are likely to play a major part in Northern politics.   Plus the others are quite young.  Ned hasn't started to find spouses, which, for the girls, would likely be the main reason for such trips.

White Harbour is the only city, and the commercial center for the North.  My guess is that the trips Arya took to Whtie Harbour were for the purpose of buying stuff, along with seeing the sights and catching a show, or whatever it is that visitors do there.  A visit to the Manderlys would have been on the itinerary, but probably not the main purpose.  I doubt the Manderlys would have paid Arya much attention, as she would have been 7 or 8 at the time, and the younger daughter to boot, plus the Manderly didn't have any boys the right age, if I recall.  Robb might have been of interest though.

While this really isn't a pink letter thread, I think Ramsay is the primary author.  I seriously doubt that Mance is in collusion with him, but might have had a part (unwilling) in its writing.  I have no idea what Mance is up to, other than rescuing Arya.

In the Theon preview chapter

Theon tells Jeyne that she will have to keep on being Arya, which doesn't make her happy.

  This would suggest that George intends for the masquerade to continue for some time to come, with wreaking havoc along the way.  This would be unlikely if her being fake was widely known.

Those who try to expose her as a fake may not be believed.  They could be perceived as having ulterior motives and lying about it, and the Boltons will certainly make that suggestion if it happens.

While Jaime knew she was fake, he also likely knew that she had disappeared and hadn't been in KL recently.  Also, he had spent an extended period with her, and even he had some doubts.  I expect that if Tywin had lied and said it was really her, Jaime would likely have believed him.

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

Ah yes that's it Rowan is the one who throws the Stark words back at Theon.  Out of curiosity, why do you think Myrtle is a man?  Is there a suggestive description or something? 

@redriver was the first to make the ID way back when and it clicked instantly for me (though we go on to differ on the implications it has on the larger picture). ... Myrtle is tall, older (hair turning grey) and deep voiced. Mance introduces her as his mother. Back when Bran encountered him in the cave (I think it was the Liddle , not a Liddle), he recounted sometimes having a dream that his "old mother has come back to us".

Side note: GRRM points out that some "washerwomen" actually do some washing, and Myrtle Later shows up with the servants' disguises. How would she be able to get them, unnoticed? ... It occurs to me that providing laundry services to the various northern Lords would also give good cover for getting information between them and Mance.

This also ties in with why I feel so sure Benjen is the HM. Leaving aside many other clues, when the boys escape from Theon, he muses that.. 

Quote

Somehow Osha and the wretched boys were eluding him. It should not have been possible, not on foot, burdened with a cripple and a young child. Every passing hour increased the likelihood that they would make good their escape. If they reach a village . . . The people of the north would never deny Ned Stark's sons, Robb's brothers. They'd have mounts to speed them on their way, food. Men would fight for the honor of protecting them. The whole bloody north would rally around them ...( Theon IV, ACoK)

Later, at Deepwood Motte, Asha recalls... 

Quote

Galbart Glover's maester had claimed the mountain clans were too quarrelsome to ever band together without a Stark to lead them. He might not have been lying. He might just have been wrong... (The Wayward Bride)

 Hold those thoughts, for a bit.

I think Rickon and Osha have received the protection Theon predicted - from Manderly and the Umbers. Bran .. not so much. From the Liddle, he just receives a warning that the Boltons are searching for him, and.. 

Quote

 "As to that Wall," the man went on, "it's not a place that I'd be going. The Old Bear took the Watch into the haunted woods, and all that come back was his ravens, with hardly a message between them. Dark wings, dark words, me mother used to say, but when the birds fly silent, seems to me that's even darker." He poked at the fire with his stick. "It was different when there was a Stark in Winterfell. But the old wolf's dead and young one's gone south to play the game of thrones, and all that's left us is the ghosts."

It appears that a mere, "it's not a place that I'd be going" is completely incompatible with (loose quote) "fighting for the honour of protecting Bran" or "rallying around him". It seems the Liddle should have done more to either dissuade Bran from going into danger or sent protectors with him.

As to the Asha quote, I think Glover's maester was telling it true. Why did the Clans take so readily to Stannis' cause? They don't argue about whether or not to support him. "The Ned's little girl" may just be a convenient excuse. Such a quarrelsome bunch might have had differing ideas about how to help her.... She cannot possibly be leading them.

There's one more puzzle piece of a quote back in Bran IV, AGoT when Yoren brings the news of Benjen's disappearance and probable death to WF... 

Quote

 

All Bran could think of was Old Nan's story of the Others and the last hero, hounded through the white woods by dead men and spiders big as hounds. He was afraid for a moment, until he remembered how that story ended. "The children will help him," he blurted, "the children of the forest!"

Theon Greyjoy sniggered, and Maester Luwin said, "Bran, the children of the forest have been dead and gone for thousands of years. All that is left of them are the faces in the trees."

 

Obviously Luwin and Theon (and possibly everyone but Bran and Robb ) believe Benjen is pretty well inevitably dead. I think the four puzzle pieces fir together like this...

  • Bran's intuition is right and the children (and Bloodraven) have helped Benjen. (Jon's vision of Benjen "dead" on the ground may also be an intuitive flash.... but we know that the appearance of death is not always true.)
  • "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell"  (evoked by the Liddle's speech) is not just a family maxim but, though forgotten, is connected to the magic in WF. No Stark in WF - the magic begins to fade or die. The magic only responds to a Stark, just like the Black Gate responds to a NW brother.
  • As Jon is sent on a mission by the Half Hand for the greater good, Benjen is likewise sent on a mission to be the Stark in WF.
  • Benjen is also capable of leading the Clans and others. He has been the Stark in WF before and is well known to them. The Liddle would defer to him if he said it was important to let Bran proceed.
  • The very snowstorm may be emanating from Winterfell not because there is no Stark present, but because there is.
  • The Liddle's speech mentions his mother for a second time and in the next breath, mentions a Stark in WF and says " all that's left us is the ghosts" in relation to Starks.

So I think the Liddle is portraying his mother's ghost and when Theon meets the HM, he thinks he's seeing Benjen's ghost. (Hence he's not afraid to show his hands - Ben's ghost would not be reporting him to Ramsay). ... Benjen is either a leader of the GNC or the leader. If he was on his way back as Bran & co were escaping, there has been time for him to co-ordinate with the other northern Lords.

I have many more clues that I think support these points, but that would have made this much longer.

Back to Rowan - she could also be one of the Greatjon's daughters mentioned by Jon to Stannis..

Quote

 

 "The Greatjon has sons and daughters both. In the north the children of a man's body still come before his uncles, ser."

 

 

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13 hours ago, bemused said:

@redriver was the first to make the ID way back when and it clicked instantly for me (though we go on to differ on the implications it has on the larger picture). ... Myrtle is tall, older (hair turning grey) and deep voiced. Mance introduces her as his mother. Back when Bran encountered him in the cave (I think it was the Liddle , not a Liddle), he recounted sometimes having a dream that his "old mother has come back to us".

Side note: GRRM points out that some "washerwomen" actually do some washing, and Myrtle Later shows up with the servants' disguises. How would she be able to get them, unnoticed? ... It occurs to me that providing laundry services to the various northern Lords would also give good cover for getting information between them and Mance.

This also ties in with why I feel so sure Benjen is the HM. Leaving aside many other clues, when the boys escape from Theon, he muses that.. 

Interesting, and the HM is shown to have a sense of humor that we do see in Benjen...

Quote

Later, at Deepwood Motte, Asha recalls... 

 Hold those thoughts, for a bit.

I think Rickon and Osha have received the protection Theon predicted - from Manderly and the Umbers. Bran .. not so much. From the Liddle, he just receives a warning that the Boltons are searching for him, and.. 

It appears that a mere, "it's not a place that I'd be going" is completely incompatible with (loose quote) "fighting for the honour of protecting Bran" or "rallying around him". It seems the Liddle should have done more to either dissuade Bran from going into danger or sent protectors with him.

As to the Asha quote, I think Glover's maester was telling it true. Why did the Clans take so readily to Stannis' cause? They don't argue about whether or not to support him. "The Ned's little girl" may just be a convenient excuse. Such a quarrelsome bunch might have had differing ideas about how to help her.... She cannot possibly be leading them.

This is made a bit more clear when the leaders of the clans start to turn up at the wall. There is a Liddle in the nights watch and all the clans seem to be keeping an eye on the wall. And if the GNC is a thing they may know that Jon, was named King by Robs will, and that he sent Stannis to them. Or even just that Jon was Ned's son, and the only adult Stark male in the North if the will wasn't known. And would help him as they see him as being sent by a Stark. Now, that said it doesn't really impact the whole washer woman  being a male and Benjen thing.

Quote

There's one more puzzle piece of a quote back in Bran IV, AGoT when Yoren brings the news of Benjen's disappearance and probable death to WF... 

Obviously Luwin and Theon (and possibly everyone but Bran and Robb ) believe Benjen is pretty well inevitably dead. I think the four puzzle pieces fir together like this...

  • Bran's intuition is right and the children (and Bloodraven) have helped Benjen. (Jon's vision of Benjen "dead" on the ground may also be an intuitive flash.... but we know that the appearance of death is not always true.)

I thought he saw him in a pool of blood in the snow, so not a confirmed death. But a confirmed injury to be sure. I also thought this was his first 'vision'

Quote
  • "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell"  (evoked by the Liddle's speech) is not just a family maxim but, though forgotten, is connected to the magic in WF. No Stark in WF - the magic begins to fade or die. The magic only responds to a Stark, just like the Black Gate responds to a NW brother.
  • As Jon is sent on a mission by the Half Hand for the greater good, Benjen is likewise sent on a mission to be the Stark in WF.
  • Benjen is also capable of leading the Clans and others. He has been the Stark in WF before and is well known to them. The Liddle would defer to him if he said it was important to let Bran proceed.
  • The very snowstorm may be emanating from Winterfell not because there is no Stark present, but because there is.
  • The Liddle's speech mentions his mother for a second time and in the next breath, mentions a Stark in WF and says " all that's left us is the ghosts" in relation to Starks.

I always thought this was a hint that the Stark's absence would release the ghosts. We see how them being run out causes the destruction of the Ironwood door, and the removal of several swords and those two things are emphasized enough to be seen as foreshadowing of some sort of curse being let loose. But, what if he went there to stop the curse and it released anyway because the old Gods know of the will? Or maybe he went to get Arya and realized she was fake?

Quote

So I think the Liddle is portraying his mother's ghost and when Theon meets the HM, he thinks he's seeing Benjen's ghost. (Hence he's not afraid to show his hands - Ben's ghost would not be reporting him to Ramsay). ... Benjen is either a leader of the GNC or the leader. If he was on his way back as Bran & co were escaping, there has been time for him to co-ordinate with the other northern Lords.

I have many more clues that I think support these points, but that would have made this much longer.

Back to Rowan - she could also be one of the Greatjon's daughters mentioned by Jon to Stannis..

 

 

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6 hours ago, Nevets said:

In the Theon preview chapter

  Reveal hidden contents

Theon tells Jeyne that she will have to keep on being Arya, which doesn't make her happy.

  This would suggest that George intends for the masquerade to continue for some time to come, with wreaking havoc along the way.  This would be unlikely if her being fake was widely known.

Just me, but this looks like an opportunity. Let Ramsey think they're all drinking the Kool-Aid and in the meantime put all of the pieces into place to strike properly. Let it be known that they known Arya is fake when it's to the best advantage for them to retaliate, not when it gives Ramsey the upper hand.

It's a bad idea to bring everything down when they don't have anything to replace it with. No Jon, no Rickon, no Stark at all at present.

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17 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Just me, but this looks like an opportunity. Let Ramsey think they're all drinking the Kool-Aid and in the meantime put all of the pieces into place to strike properly. Let it be known that they known Arya is fake when it's to the best advantage for them to retaliate, not when it gives Ramsey the upper hand.

It's a bad idea to bring everything down when they don't have anything to replace it with. No Jon, no Rickon, no Stark at all at present.

Jeyne is out of Ramsay's control, and I doubt he is going to get her back.  Once that fact becomes known, the Northerners can act without fear of retaliation against Arya.   The fact that the boys are still alive is known now, so they can wait for one of them to show up.  I think Jeyne will end up at Braavos with the banker, and subsequently meet the real Arya, and be the catalyst for her return to Westeros. 

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3 minutes ago, Nevets said:

Jeyne is out of Ramsay's control, and I doubt he is going to get her back.  Once that fact becomes known, the Northerners can act without fear of retaliation against Arya.   The fact that the boys are still alive is known now, so they can wait for one of them to show up.  I think Jeyne will end up at Braavos with the banker, and subsequently meet the real Arya, and be the catalyst for her return to Westeros. 

The Boltons are backed by the IT. They shouldn't act against them until they ready. It's essentially initiating a re-rebellion and that requires preparation. I think the North has learned from its mistakes under Robb. And they knew that Bran and Rickon were alive at one point. There's a lot of space between knowing they were alive at some point in the past to whether they're still alive and whether they can be found.

I do think that Jeyne ending up in Braavos is possible as you suggest.

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On 6/7/2018 at 5:12 AM, bemused said:

:D:D.. I've been spouting this for years.. What makes it the penguin theory ?... Is that a Batman reference, or...? I noticed there was some discussion of the accursed pink letter and wanted to chime in

The penguin remark was a jest. Chalk it up to my strange sense of humor. Initially when I arrived at this site I lurked and read the topics that interested me. You were one of the many posters that grabbed my interest, especially with the Alliser stuff.

For a year or so I mistakenly typed Alliser for Allister and Jaime as Jamie. Hell, who knows I may still be spelling names incorrectly.

Ants.  Jon was standing atop of the Wall and remarked that the riders looked like ants.

My then newbie self got into a discussion out of my realm.

A Dance with Dragons - Jon VI     Dywen would lead one ranging, Black Jack Bulwer and Kedge Whiteye the other two. They at least were eager for the duty. "Feels good to have a horse under me again," Dywen said at the gate, sucking on his wooden teeth. "Begging your pardon, m'lord, but we were all o' us getting splinters up our arses from sitting about." No man in Castle Black knew the woods as well as Dywen did, the trees and streams, the plants that could be eaten, the ways of predator and prey. Thorne is in better hands than he deserves.      Jon watched the riders go from atop the Wall—three parties, each of three men, each carrying a pair of ravens. From on high their garrons looked no larger than ants, and Jon could not tell one ranger from another. He knew them, though. Every name was graven on his heart. Eight good men, he thought, and one … well, we shall see./

Without making this too long, Alliser was among one of the three groups. I suggested that due to Jon’s inability to see who was riding out that perhaps Alliser pulled a switch in the stables. That Alliser did not leave CB and hid out in the wormways.

My thought was all the NW men look the same when covered head to toe in black with hoods drawn over their heads and scarves wrapped around their faces --- penguins.

Glad to see you posting.

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20 hours ago, bemused said:

@redriver was the first to make the ID way back when and it clicked instantly for me (though we go on to differ on the implications it has on the larger picture). ... Myrtle is tall, older (hair turning grey) and deep voiced. Mance introduces her as his mother. Back when Bran encountered him in the cave (I think it was the Liddle , not a Liddle), he recounted sometimes having a dream that his "old mother has come back to us".

Side note: GRRM points out that some "washerwomen" actually do some washing, and Myrtle Later shows up with the servants' disguises. How would she be able to get them, unnoticed? ... It occurs to me that providing laundry services to the various northern Lords would also give good cover for getting information between them and Mance.

Interesting, I'd love to see @redriver original theory on that...it doesn't seem like there's a lot there to me but it's certainly interesting.  The Liddle's are definitely a piece of the puzzle as why do you include Liddle meeting Bran there unless there's some kind of payoff.

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This also ties in with why I feel so sure Benjen is the HM. Leaving aside many other clues, when the boys escape from Theon, he muses that..

I'd like the Benjen theory a lot except for the fact that Theon shows no sign of recognition of him.  I get that there's a blizzard and he's hooded, but GRRM describes their eyes as having met, and I would think between eyes and voice Theon would recognize Benjen who has been to Winterfell multiple times while Theon has been there.   

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It appears that a mere, "it's not a place that I'd be going" is completely incompatible with (loose quote) "fighting for the honour of protecting Bran" or "rallying around him". It seems the Liddle should have done more to either dissuade Bran from going into danger or sent protectors with him.

Yeah I really need a re-read of Bran's time with the Liddle as I vaguely remember it.  It does seem to be incompatible as you would assume the Liddle would readily recognize Bran as a Stark with the identifying direwolf with him and you would think he would try and protect him.  I suppose it's possible he has some sort of "magical knowledge" similar to the Reeds and he knows Bran needs to to the North, but that seems unlikely based on him saying not to go there.

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As to the Asha quote, I think Glover's maester was telling it true. Why did the Clans take so readily to Stannis' cause? They don't argue about whether or not to support him. "The Ned's little girl" may just be a convenient excuse. Such a quarrelsome bunch might have had differing ideas about how to help her.... She cannot possibly be leading them.


 

As to this, hmmm...I think I could justify it both as a rescue mission for "Arya" and maybe even more so a revenge mission on the Boltons.  I know one of the clans warriors says he just wants to die with Bolton blood on his hands...I could see hatred of the Boltons unifying the Northern Clans as it has the Northern Lords...but at the same time, I certainly see your point especially if Liddle has relayed that Bran is alive to alll the Clans and then your'e getting into GNC territory for sure.  

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There's one more puzzle piece of a quote back in Bran IV, AGoT when Yoren brings the news of Benjen's disappearance and probable death to WF... 

Obviously Luwin and Theon (and possibly everyone but Bran and Robb ) believe Benjen is pretty well inevitably dead. I think the four puzzle pieces fir together like this...

  • Bran's intuition is right and the children (and Bloodraven) have helped Benjen. (Jon's vision of Benjen "dead" on the ground may also be an intuitive flash.... but we know that the appearance of death is not always true.)
  • "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell"  (evoked by the Liddle's speech) is not just a family maxim but, though forgotten, is connected to the magic in WF. No Stark in WF - the magic begins to fade or die. The magic only responds to a Stark, just like the Black Gate responds to a NW brother.
  • As Jon is sent on a mission by the Half Hand for the greater good, Benjen is likewise sent on a mission to be the Stark in WF.
  • Benjen is also capable of leading the Clans and others. He has been the Stark in WF before and is well known to them. The Liddle would defer to him if he said it was important to let Bran proceed.
  • The very snowstorm may be emanating from Winterfell not because there is no Stark present, but because there is.
  • The Liddle's speech mentions his mother for a second time and in the next breath, mentions a Stark in WF and says " all that's left us is the ghosts" in relation to Starks.

So I think the Liddle is portraying his mother's ghost and when Theon meets the HM, he thinks he's seeing Benjen's ghost. (Hence he's not afraid to show his hands - Ben's ghost would not be reporting him to Ramsay). ... Benjen is either a leader of the GNC or the leader. If he was on his way back as Bran & co were escaping, there has been time for him to co-ordinate with the other northern Lords.

I have many more clues that I think support these points, but that would have made this much longer.

Back to Rowan - she could also be one of the Greatjon's daughters mentioned by Jon to Stannis..

 

This is really interesting.  I would say that my biggest reservation with Benjen being the HM is two-fold- like I said above I don't recall Theon showing any remote sign of recognition.  There is a line about oddly not being afraid of the HM, which may go to your ghost point.  Secondly though, Benjen seems like a pretty hardcore NW member, unless there is some extreme magical reason why a Stark must be in Winterfell that relates to the Others and the NW I can't see Benjen abandoning his post like that.  But yes, if you're rgith that there's a magical reason i could see it.

It's interesting about the snowstorm...for lack of a better term, who do you think the Old Gods would hate more, Stannis or Roose/Ramsay?  Both of them are sort of extreme antagonists to the "old way", with Stannis per Melisandre burning the Old Gods and Roose/Ramsay spitting in their face by participating in violating guest right and betraying the Starks.  The snowstorm seems to be more hurtful to Stannis, but I guess it is also really screwing up stuff for the Boltons so i could see it.

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3 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

It's interesting about the snowstorm...for lack of a better term, who do you think the Old Gods would hate more, Stannis or Roose/Ramsay?  Both of them are sort of extreme antagonists to the "old way", with Stannis per Melisandre burning the Old Gods and Roose/Ramsay spitting in their face by participating in violating guest right and betraying the Starks.  The snowstorm seems to be more hurtful to Stannis, but I guess it is also really screwing up stuff for the Boltons so i could see it.

It was bad enough to collapse the stables and some of the men did say they were being cursed by the Old Gods, only for Bolton to deflect onto Stannis. But Theon seeing the heart tree as laughing during the wedding does seem like that may be when things started going 'wrong' as it was made clear in front of the tree that there was no real Stark in Winterfell. They even lied in front of the Old Gods, that is why Theon though the tree was laughing, and Jeor and Jon had that conversation about their fathers saying you can't lie in front of a heart tree. So the laughing tree (that really makes me go to tinfoil lol) and storm may be related to that?

 

5 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

The penguin remark was a jest. Chalk it up to my strange sense of humor. Initially when I arrived at this site I lurked and read the topics that interested me. You were one of the many posters that grabbed my interest, especially with the Alliser stuff.

For a year or so I mistakenly typed Alliser for Allister and Jaime as Jamie. Hell, who knows I may still be spelling names incorrectly.

Me too I've been lurking for several years, I read a bunch of the old threads and loved the past posts of most of the people on this thread. But for me it was the Jon Snow re-read and Learning to Lead that really drew me in. I read Bemused's wet letter theory on one of those, but had forgotten about it.

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Ants.  Jon was standing atop of the Wall and remarked that the riders looked like ants.

Oh, I have been looking for all the ant and moth references, and missed this one. Thanks for pointing it out!

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My then newbie self got into a discussion out of my realm.

I feel a bit like that now, I know the wall pretty well, but although Winterfell is fascinating it has me scratching my head a lot, but that's half the fun.

19 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Just me, but this looks like an opportunity. Let Ramsey think they're all drinking the Kool-Aid and in the meantime put all of the pieces into place to strike properly. Let it be known that they known Arya is fake when it's to the best advantage for them to retaliate, not when it gives Ramsey the upper hand.

It's a bad idea to bring everything down when they don't have anything to replace it with. No Jon, no Rickon, no Stark at all at present.

I think they would want to wait until they had a replacement, and someone who could definitively call the Bolton bluff... hmm Now I'm back to wondering about the pink letter. I think I'm going to have to break it down based on what the various suspected authors would hope to gain from it, and how they are known to speak and see what I find that clicks with me. I do think who wrote that could have an impact on the fallout at the wall, based on the northmen line. But, before I post what I find (if anything haha) first I'll search for Pink letter threads. There must be some, then I will know what people have already disproved. No point posting something that's known to be wrong :)

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On 6/7/2018 at 8:20 PM, Azarial said:

I always thought this was a hint that the Stark's absence would release the ghosts. We see how them being run out causes the destruction of the Ironwood door, and the removal of several swords and those two things are emphasized enough to be seen as foreshadowing of some sort of curse being let loose. But, what if he went there to stop the curse and it released anyway because the old Gods know of the will? Or maybe he went to get Arya and realized she was fake?

I may be wrong, but I'm almost sure George has said that we won't meet any ghosts. (I'd have to search the SSMs)... anyway, that wouldn't mean that their presence won't be felt. Theon is certainly convinced he feels them. And it wouldn't mean we won't meet people who are assumed to be ghosts.

The Ironwood door was never destroyed just buried in rubble from the collapsed tower. Hodor manages to push it open and they leave it that way... But when Roose arrives, the door is closed and re-buried in rubble. (I say thanks to the so called "squatters".)

The swords are interesting ... between ACoK and ASoS we learn that Osha took the sword from Ned's tomb, Meera - Lord Rickard's, Bran - Brandon's, Hodor - a centuries old one , heavy and rusted (but whose?).  ... Then in the TWoW Theon chapter,

Spoiler

Theon is uncertain if four swords or five are missing.. ;)

If I'm right and he's there, Benjen may not have had a sword after what he'd been through, or he may have thought a particular tomb sword would have some symbolic value. He would have had time to work on it. ... The HM does have a sword when Theon meets him.  (or there's some other explanation)

I'm not sure there's anything so formal as a curse or if it's just that so long as the magic in WF holds (i.e., if a Stark is in residence) everything about the place, including the spirit (or spirits) of all the dead Starks will push back against any invader...?:dunno:

Theon senses all sorts of ghosts in WF - in my view, correctly and incorrectly identified ... and I think there may be more incorrect identifications to come. Here's what I mean -

  • I think the secret passage under WF, first hinted at way back in Bran's first chapter in AGoT, does exist, but like the working of the Black Gate with the NW, only a Stark can find it and open it.  - It has been forgotten for centuries , but the cotf and Bloodraven would be in a position to know of it and it's operation.
  • Many (if not all) of the secret or hidden passages we've seen into castles, even the small holdfast by the God's Eye, open directly onto water , or close to it. WF is not close to the White Knife but we should remember the vastness of the crypts, and references elsewhere to vast networks of tunnels...
  • Between WF and the White Knife sits House Cerwyn, very close to House Stark, and as it happens, quite empty at the moment. Although Jonelle Cerwyn was in Barrowton, she is not present in WF. 
  • Manderly has ferried fighting men and supplies up the White Knife before, to help Rodrik Cassel take Torrhen's Square.
  •  In his ADWD chapter, Theon draws our attention to the logistics of defending against men fighting up a spiral stairway. (Leaving us to consider- Yes, that can be defended, but, what if no-one is expecting the attackers ?... what if they have allies at the top holding defenders back?... etc.)

With those in mind, I think/feel that the non-magical reason Benjen is there is to oversee the resurrection of WF ... to re-supply it and re-man it. I think this has been underway since before Roose returned and decided to hold the wedding there. This had to be undertaken secretly for as long as possible, to avoid Ramsay's notice.

At this point, I think they (Northern Lords and select people they can trust completely) plan to retake WF from within.

With the exit of the Freys and Manderly men and (very probably) Ramsay with some Dreadfort men bringing up the rear in search of fArya, the difference between Roose & Dreadfort men vs all the other Northmen (yes, I think all) is suddenly much closer to being evenly matched, though still in Roose's favour.

So, getting back to ghosts, if (after the Freys et al are gone) the crypts open and "x" number of fighting men wearing the Stark sigil and led by a man widely thought to be dead emerge (maybe screaming "Winterfell !")... do you think that would help the odds? .. Would it have a similar effect to "Renly's ghost" at the Blackwater ? (Of course what they might wear and what they might cry is purely imagination, but I think there are enough clues scattered throughout the books to think the attack will happen)

13 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

Secondly though, Benjen seems like a pretty hardcore NW member, unless there is some extreme magical reason why a Stark must be in Winterfell that relates to the Others and the NW I can't see Benjen abandoning his post like that.

 Benjen may indeed have been wounded and lying in a pool of blood as in Jon's vision, but rescued and healed by the cotf (think of Mance being healed after extreme blood loss,by the wildling wise woman's daughter - using porridges and potions). Qhorin convinced Jon to appear to break his oath, even break it outright if necessary, for the greater good. I think the cotf and Bloodraven did the same for Benjen and probably explained a lot to him. I think his mission is related to the Wall and the NW.

WF and the wall were both supposedly raised by the same builder(s). The NW oath says "I am the watcher on the walls". Plural. I've often pointed out that might mean a NW brother has to be true to his oath wherever it he happens to be... and walls might also refer to the wall and WF's wall. 

Jon says the wall killed Jarl (who would have been his rival for Val and future leader of the free folk) ... later Jon comments or thinks (paraphrase) sometimes the wall just shakes them off, like a dog shakes off fleas ... Jon sees his reflection inside the wall. He doesn't see himself reflected on the wall, or reflected by the wall, but inside, as if he's part of it. ("Inside" always seemed  an unusual word for GRRM to use, to me. )

I think it's likely that Stark blood and WF are connected to, or even a component of the magic of the wall. An integral part of the magical defense against the others.... There must always be a Stark in Winterfell.

Is WF a back-up, a last redoubt? ..And I wonder if all those boy Stark LCs were very far back in history during winter, or when winter was approaching ? ... Must there also be a Stark LC when the Others threaten?

got to quit for tonight..

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7 hours ago, bemused said:

I may be wrong, but I'm almost sure George has said that we won't meet any ghosts. (I'd have to search the SSMs)... anyway, that wouldn't mean that their presence won't be felt. Theon is certainly convinced he feels them. And it wouldn't mean we won't meet people who are assumed to be ghosts.

The Ironwood door was never destroyed just buried in rubble from the collapsed tower. Hodor manages to push it open and they leave it that way... But when Roose arrives, the door is closed and re-buried in rubble. (I say thanks to the so called "squatters".)

I thought that it was off it's hinges, but could be miss-remembering, and yes, someone could have repaired that. I hadn't even thought about the 'ghosts,' as I always took it to have something to do with the Stark-blood activating the heart tree, or lack there of and damage to the crypts, or removal of the swords triggering a winter type event like we see centered on Winterfell at a very convenient time. Now, that said, characters believing they see ghosts and starting to act based on their beliefs has little and less to do with what is 'really' happening.

7 hours ago, bemused said:

The swords are interesting ... between ACoK and ASoS we learn that Osha took the sword from Ned's tomb, Meera - Lord Rickard's, Bran - Brandon's, Hodor - a centuries old one , heavy and rusted (but whose?).  ... Then in the TWoW Theon chapter,

  Hide contents

Theon is uncertain if four swords or five are missing.. ;)

If I'm right and he's there, Benjen may not have had a sword after what he'd been through, or he may have thought a particular tomb sword would have some symbolic value. He would have had time to work on it. ... The HM does have a sword when Theon meets him.  (or there's some other explanation)

I'm not sure there's anything so formal as a curse or if it's just that so long as the magic in WF holds (i.e., if a Stark is in residence) everything about the place, including the spirit (or spirits) of all the dead Starks will push back against any invader...?:dunno:

I Just find the timing of the storm to be to coincidental when you consider, "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell," paired with, "Winter is Coming." I don't know, a storm that hits after swords vanish, and it's made clear in front of the heart tree that there is no Stark in Winterfell, seems to coincidental to me. 

7 hours ago, bemused said:

Theon senses all sorts of ghosts in WF - in my view, correctly and incorrectly identified ... and I think there may be more incorrect identifications to come. Here's what I mean -

  • I think the secret passage under WF, first hinted at way back in Bran's first chapter in AGoT, does exist, but like the working of the Black Gate with the NW, only a Stark can find it and open it.  - It has been forgotten for centuries , but the cotf and Bloodraven would be in a position to know of it and it's operation.

That, and it would likely be in the collapsed area. I have wondered about these tunnels a lot.

7 hours ago, bemused said:
  • Many (if not all) of the secret or hidden passages we've seen into castles, even the small holdfast by the God's Eye, open directly onto water , or close to it. WF is not close to the White Knife but we should remember the vastness of the crypts, and references elsewhere to vast networks of tunnels...

Supposed to link up with the wall, and beyond or at the very least to long lake and then there is another set that links to the far north based on the tales Jon and the Free Folk were discussing way back.

7 hours ago, bemused said:
  • Between WF and the White Knife sits House Cerwyn, very close to House Stark, and as it happens, quite empty at the moment. Although Jonelle Cerwyn was in Barrowton, she is not present in WF. 
  • Manderly has ferried fighting men and supplies up the White Knife before, to help Rodrik Cassel take Torrhen's Square.
  •  In his ADWD chapter, Theon draws our attention to the logistics of defending against men fighting up a spiral stairway. (Leaving us to consider- Yes, that can be defended, but, what if no-one is expecting the attackers ?... what if they have allies at the top holding defenders back?... etc.)

With those in mind, I think/feel that the non-magical reason Benjen is there is to oversee the resurrection of WF ... to re-supply it and re-man it. I think this has been underway since before Roose returned and decided to hold the wedding there. This had to be undertaken secretly for as long as possible, to avoid Ramsay's notice.

At this point, I think they (Northern Lords and select people they can trust completely) plan to retake WF from within.

This seems like a given, just based off of the men present, their ages, their eagerness to scrap.

7 hours ago, bemused said:

With the exit of the Freys and Manderly men and (very probably) Ramsay with some Dreadfort men bringing up the rear in search of fArya, the difference between Roose & Dreadfort men vs all the other Northmen (yes, I think all) is suddenly much closer to being evenly matched, though still in Roose's favour.

So, getting back to ghosts, if (after the Freys et al are gone) the crypts open and "x" number of fighting men wearing the Stark sigil and led by a man widely thought to be dead emerge (maybe screaming "Winterfell !")... do you think that would help the odds? .. Would it have a similar effect to "Renly's ghost" at the Blackwater ? (Of course what they might wear and what they might cry is purely imagination, but I think there are enough clues scattered throughout the books to think the attack will happen)

I would love to see this. But, I'd love it more if it were Jon and Benjin. The reason being both are now believed dead, and Jon also looks like Ned, and there are lots of people wondering about his remains. So I think seeing him dressed as a full on Stark would have the biggest impact, as Benjin is lost, presumed dead. Where as Jon and Ned would be confirmed dead. But the two of them together would really freak people out. Plus we have Arya's memory of a Ghost Jon emerging from the crypts. And while this is foreshadowing of him not staying dead, Martin does love having everything mean multiple things. And he is no where near the crypts ATM.

7 hours ago, bemused said:

 Benjen may indeed have been wounded and lying in a pool of blood as in Jon's vision, but rescued and healed by the cotf (think of Mance being healed after extreme blood loss,by the wildling wise woman's daughter - using porridges and potions). Qhorin convinced Jon to appear to break his oath, even break it outright if necessary, for the greater good. I think the cotf and Bloodraven did the same for Benjen and probably explained a lot to him. I think his mission is related to the Wall and the NW.

WF and the wall were both supposedly raised by the same builder(s). The NW oath says "I am the watcher on the walls". Plural. I've often pointed out that might mean a NW brother has to be true to his oath wherever it he happens to be... and walls might also refer to the wall and WF's wall. 

I always wondered if this meant that the lord or king of each castle was supposed to take the black. (Back before the vows were altered, and they lost their way.) I also wondered if this might be related to the frozen river in the frost fangs that looks like a wall and is even taller than the wall, that Jon saw. Indicating that the Free Folk may be part of the defense but, that they too forgot their true purpose?

7 hours ago, bemused said:

Jon says the wall killed Jarl (who would have been his rival for Val and future leader of the free folk) ... later Jon comments or thinks (paraphrase) sometimes the wall just shakes them off, like a dog shakes off fleas ... Jon sees his reflection inside the wall. He doesn't see himself reflected on the wall, or reflected by the wall, but inside, as if he's part of it. ("Inside" always seemed  an unusual word for GRRM to use, to me. )

Oh, I never even thought of the Jarl thing. I have mulled over the whole 'Jon is the wall,' symbolism and thought that it linked in with the multiple AA theory, as he would be the shield, but hadn't taken it quite so far as to think of him controlling the wall. I wonder if spilling his blood was needed to fully bond him with the magic of the wall? 

7 hours ago, bemused said:

I think it's likely that Stark blood and WF are connected to, or even a component of the magic of the wall. An integral part of the magical defense against the others.... There must always be a Stark in Winterfell.

Is WF a back-up, a last redoubt? ..And I wonder if all those boy Stark LCs were very far back in history during winter, or when winter was approaching ? ... Must there also be a Stark LC when the Others threaten?

got to quit for tonight..

I do think a Stark being in Winterfell, is key to stopping the Others. To many hints for this not to be the case. Not sure about the lord commander as their are no words telling us this. But, that list Sam read does show us that for whatever reason Starks to tend to wind up as Lord commanders. Maybe them being rulers of the north and everyone wanting the support of Winterfell made it so that they didn't need to specify it, as it's a natural consequence? Plus Mance came and noted the wolves and made it clear he wanted a Stark child for some reason. And if the wolves are what made him want one, indicating that they had the magic, that could be a clue to something as well.

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 Ook... where to begin... I'll never get to all I'd like to say.

16 hours ago, Azarial said:

I thought that it was off it's hinges, but could be miss-remembering, and yes, someone could have repaired that. I hadn't even thought about the 'ghosts,' as I always took it to have something to do with the Stark-blood activating the heart tree, or lack there of and damage to the crypts, or removal of the swords triggering a winter type event like we see centered on Winterfell at a very convenient time. Now, that said, characters believing they see ghosts and starting to act based on their beliefs has little and less to do with what is 'really' happening.

Here's the quote from ACoK, Bran VII.. 

Quote

 

The door to the crypts was made of ironwood. It was old and heavy, and lay at a slant to the ground. Only one person could approach it at a time. 

..<snip>...

"Use your back," urged Bran. "And your legs."

Turning, Hodor put his back to the wood and shoved. Again. Again. "Hodor!" He put one foot on a higher step so he was bent under the slant of the door and tried to rise. This time the wood groaned and creaked. "Hodor!" The other foot came up a step, and Hodor spread his legs apart, braced, and straightened. His face turned red, and Bran could see cords in his neck bulging as he strained against the weight above him. "Hodor hodor hodor hodor hodor HODOR!" From above came a dull rumble. Then suddenly the door jerked upward and a shaft of daylight fell across Bran's face, blinding him for a moment. Another shove brought the sound of shifting stone, and then the way was open. Osha poked her spear through and slid out after it, and Rickon squirmed through Meera's legs to follow. Hodor shoved the door open all the way and stepped to the surface. The Reeds had to carry Bran up the last few steps.

The door isn't mentioned again after that - until we see Barbrey's men open it, at which time it's closed, and reburied in rubble. So, who did that and when interests me.

Once I began to be convinced that Benjen could be the HM, many more things began to fall into place for me (logically speaking) and this was one of the later clues to fall in line. It has to do with the squatters, not ghosts.

 The squatters are not inclined to flee or melt away when Roose's van is approaching up the Kingsroad, and some of them behave "belligerently".. This always seemed strange, because that many men and horses do not move silently, are bound to kick up dust and the "squatters" can survey the landscape from 100 ft. walls. Why are they still there when Roose arrives? Even if they didn't think Roose would be staying, they'd be safer to say, hide in the wolfswood until he was gone. Even if real squatters were foolish enough to stay, or for some reason had no forewarning, it would not be in the interest of self-preservation to be belligerent. Unless they had a common purpose, their behaviour makes no sense to me.

I think they were the ones to rebury the crypt door. Not because they were afraid of ghosts; Theon notices dead bodies from the time of the sack still lying around - why close the door on one set of ghosts, yet live among another set ? ... They might have piled the rubble back on the door very recently - like when they noticed (or were notified of) Roose's approach. But if they had some necessary tasks to perform, like moving the rubble and perhaps getting rid of some tell-tale signs that something clandestine was underway, then they might not have had time to avoid Roose.

They were roughly two dozen men - only men, which I think is odd. That's quite a number of random, unassociated single men to be in one place. If they were, e.g., survivors from Cassel's battle vs Ramsay , they should have had homes to go to. ... Outlaws? We haven't heard mention of any band of outlaws in the north.

Unless they had a purpose in the story, I can't see George's purpose in putting them there. Logically, Roose wouldn't have expected to find a handy workforce there; he would have been expecting to set his own men to do the work. ... The reason can't be just to show Roose's cruelty and untrustworthiness. We already knew.

So I think they were volunteers from the clans and other houses there to aid Benjen - serve as lookouts door guards and maybe security to shoo away any genuine squatters who might want to settle in, or deal with any snoopy Bolton men.

You said... Now, that said, characters believing they see ghosts and starting to act based on their beliefs has little and less to do with what is 'really' happening. ... I can't totally agree with this.

Seeing what men believed to be Renly's ghost had quite a bit to do with the outcome of the Battle of the Blackwater. Even in Theon's case... Summoned before Roose et al, he's under scrutiny himself, yet he never mentions the HM, because (IMO) he believes the HM's a ghost (even though he wonders, himself, if the HM is doing the killings). So no-one twigs to the fact that there really could be an interloper in their midst, and Frey suspicions focus even more strongly on Manderly.

 

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6 hours ago, bemused said:

 Ook... where to begin... I'll never get to all I'd like to say.

Here's the quote from ACoK, Bran VII.. 

The door isn't mentioned again after that - until we see Barbrey's men open it, at which time it's closed, and reburied in rubble. So, who did that and when interests me.

Ah, thanks for the quote, it's been a long time since I read that chapter and honestly couldn't remember.

6 hours ago, bemused said:

Once I began to be convinced that Benjen could be the HM, many more things began to fall into place for me (logically speaking) and this was one of the later clues to fall in line. It has to do with the squatters, not ghosts.

 The squatters are not inclined to flee or melt away when Roose's van is approaching up the Kingsroad, and some of them behave "belligerently".. This always seemed strange, because that many men and horses do not move silently, are bound to kick up dust and the "squatters" can survey the landscape from 100 ft. walls. Why are they still there when Roose arrives? Even if they didn't think Roose would be staying, they'd be safer to say, hide in the wolfswood until he was gone. Even if real squatters were foolish enough to stay, or for some reason had no forewarning, it would not be in the interest of self-preservation to be belligerent. Unless they had a common purpose, their behaviour makes no sense to me.

I think they were the ones to rebury the crypt door. Not because they were afraid of ghosts; Theon notices dead bodies from the time of the sack still lying around - why close the door on one set of ghosts, yet live among another set ? ... They might have piled the rubble back on the door very recently - like when they noticed (or were notified of) Roose's approach. But if they had some necessary tasks to perform, like moving the rubble and perhaps getting rid of some tell-tale signs that something clandestine was underway, then they might not have had time to avoid Roose.

They were roughly two dozen men - only men, which I think is odd. That's quite a number of random, unassociated single men to be in one place. If they were, e.g., survivors from Cassel's battle vs Ramsay , they should have had homes to go to. ... Outlaws? We haven't heard mention of any band of outlaws in the north.

Unless they had a purpose in the story, I can't see George's purpose in putting them there. Logically, Roose wouldn't have expected to find a handy workforce there; he would have been expecting to set his own men to do the work. ... The reason can't be just to show Roose's cruelty and untrustworthiness. We already knew.

So I think they were volunteers from the clans and other houses there to aid Benjen - serve as lookouts door guards and maybe security to shoo away any genuine squatters who might want to settle in, or deal with any snoopy Bolton men.

Ah, so the only a Stark comment applied to the supposed squatters. So, between the attack north of the wall where his rangers get wighted and him coming south in secret how does that part work? Why not go to the wall after his CoF rescue?

6 hours ago, bemused said:

You said... Now, that said, characters believing they see ghosts and starting to act based on their beliefs has little and less to do with what is 'really' happening. ... I can't totally agree with this.

Umm... I meant just because the characters aren't seeing real ghosts is irrelevant as they act based on the belief that they are real (as you yourself said below) But, this doesn't mean that there are literal ghosts. So you just argued the exact thing I said . I don't need much convincing to agree with myself hehe 

6 hours ago, bemused said:

Seeing what men believed to be Renly's ghost had quite a bit to do with the outcome of the Battle of the Blackwater. Even in Theon's case... Summoned before Roose et al, he's under scrutiny himself, yet he never mentions the HM, because (IMO) he believes the HM's a ghost (even though he wonders, himself, if the HM is doing the killings). So no-one twigs to the fact that there really could be an interloper in their midst, and Frey suspicions focus even more strongly on Manderly.

 

I'm not sure if this was clear, but I have no opinion on Benjin either way and honestly have never heard the theory and am curious about it and am not arguing against it. That said, I still believe that the foreshadowing indicates that in the end Jon will be there if they attack from the inside. I'd love to see them do it together to be honest, so this belief isn't arguing against the Benjin thing. The other piece that leads me to believe Jon would be there is the conversation at Harrenhal that, that Arya overhears (keeping in mind that Harrenhal is where she becomes the ghost of Harrenhal, and is believed to be haunted and that is the link.) They were talking of Robb, in the Whispering wood where he did his ghostly attack, but every-time I read it I think of Jon who actually has giants (Wun-wun, and the 80 mamoths and 200 giants he sent to Eastwatch...those may impact the fallout at the wall too if they get through, or around.) and a wolf that is white and silent, that emerging from the crypts into the blizzard would be almost invisible, and is named Ghost. I read summers attack yesterday, where he attacked in the dark to save Jon and could see how terrifying this would be. Here is the Harrenhal bit:

 
Quote

 

Arya heard snatches of their talk.
". . . giants I tell you, he's got giants twenty foot tall come down from beyond the Wall, follow him like dogs . . ."
". . . not natural, coming on them so fast, in the night and all. He's more wolf than man, all them Starks are . . ."
". . . shit on your wolves and giants, the boy'd piss his pants if he knew we was coming. He wasn't man enough to march on Harrenhal, was he? Ran t'other way, didn't he? He'd run now if he knew what was best for him."
"So you say, but might be the boy knows something we don't, maybe it's us ought to be run . . ."
Yes, Arya thought. Yes, it's you who ought to run, you and Lord Tywin and the Mountain and Ser Addam and Ser Amory and stupid Ser Lyonel whoever he is, all of you better run or my brother will kill you, he's a Stark, he's more wolf than man, and so am I.

 

 
So, I like all the Benjin stuff. I just see clues to Jon being the Winterfell ghost in the end. But, think Benjin being the HM is really interesting and I don't think the two need to be mutually exclusive.  
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