Meanwhile back at the Wall

bemused · June 11, 2018

@Azarial Sorry I partially misunderstood you re: ghosts... I realise you're open to entertaining the possibility of Benjen as the HM, or at least are of no fixed position.

15 hours ago, Azarial said:

So, between the attack north of the wall where his rangers get wighted and him coming south in secret how does that part work? Why not go to the wall after his CoF rescue?

I'd suggest Benjen - wounded, losing blood - was rescued (probably by Coldhands) and taken to the cotf cave, where he was healed and afterwards introduced to Bloodraven. Benjen cannot be connected to the tree as Bran can, but Bloodraven would be able to convince Benjen of who he was and that his word could be trusted about what was going on, the seriousness of the threat, the role of Starks in the coming struggle. He would be able to give many examples of events and conversations from the past that Benjen would know to be true.

Benjen would be told about Ned and Robb, and what was happening / about to happen at Winterfell. He'd know about Bran's one-in-a-million abilities and the urgency of getting him to the cotf, and so much else, including the magical import of "there must always be a Stark in WF."

If he returned to the wall, would he be believed? Would he get there before Mormont left? Would he be allowed to go to WF? (IMO, not if people like Marsh and Thorne had any say, especially if Marsh was communicating with KL.) I think BR/cotf would make the same case to Benjen that Qhorin made to Jon. One man's personal honour is not more important than serving the greater good. And like Jon, Benjen would still be thinking of himself as a man of the NW, and that what he was doing would benefit the NW, as well.

So I assume that like Sam, he would have been escorted to the Black Gate to return. From there, he'd turn to the clans for help in getting to WF, to gather their latest news and to warn them not to impede Bran heading north.. As the Stark in WF during RR, and First Ranger of the NW, he would be well known to them.

Now it's my turn to thank you for the Arya in Harrenhall quote ... It's a scene I hadn't read in a while. I agree that ..

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". . . giants I tell you, he's got giants twenty foot tall come down from beyond the Wall, follow him like dogs . . ." ..<snip>.. " ...He's more wolf than man, all them Starks are . ."

..<snip>.. he's a Stark, he's more wolf than man, and so am I.

... rumours about Robb having giants following him is probably foreshadowing about Jon. But the quotes about "more wolf than man" are only partly right. All Starks are not wargs, and all Stark wargs are not wolf-like to the same degree.. and in Arya's case there's an added Eowyn twist - she's not a man.

Meanwhile, back at the wall, I don't think Jon is dead, perhaps not even fully unconscious. I think in his extreme circumstances, his resistance will be broken and there will be a sudden full bonding with ghost. Due to this , when angered he'll become a full-on wolf-berserker (ulfheddin), and while in this state, he will seem to many "more wolf than man" His blind rages have been becoming more extreme. Warging will only increase the tendency (probably the result of his Stark blood being mixed with Targaryen). Sure, he'll have wounds that need tending, but I don't think they'll keep him down.

In the same way, Jon pretending to be ghost in the crypts could be foreshadowing for Benjen. There are lots of similarities between their paths.

If the attack inside WF is to come now, I don't see how Jon gets there in time to take part.

Azarial · June 11, 2018

3 hours ago, bemused said:

If he returned to the wall, would he be believed? Would he get there before Mormont left? Would he be allowed to go to WF? (IMO, not if people like Marsh and Thorne had any say, especially if Marsh was communicating with KL.) I think BR/cotf would make the same case to Benjen that Qhorin made to Jon. One man's personal honour is not more important than serving the greater good. And like Jon, Benjen would still be thinking of himself as a man of the NW, and that what he was doing would benefit the NW, as well.

Okay, you were thinking he'd be healed earlier than I was. I was thinking because the cloak at the fist was new that it would be Benjins, and that he left it and couldn't understand why he would leave Jon in danger like that. But, if it were cold hands, and we assume that Benjin told Mormont not to make him a ranger (something I suspect, especially since Mormont seems to know who Jon really is) then he wouldn't believe Jon was in danger, as stewards are normally left at the wall, then when he heard he could have sent help that I'll explain below.

3 hours ago, bemused said:

So I assume that like Sam, he would have been escorted to the Black Gate to return. From there, he'd turn to the clans for help in getting to WF, to gather their latest news and to warn them not to impede Bran heading north.. As the Stark in WF during RR, and First Ranger of the NW, he would be well known to them.

Now it's my turn to thank you for the Arya in Harrenhall quote ... It's a scene I hadn't read in a while. I agree that ..

... rumours about Robb having giants following him is probably foreshadowing about Jon. But the quotes about "more wolf than man" are only partly right. All Starks are not wargs, and all Stark wargs are not wolf-like to the same degree.. and in Arya's case there's an added Eowyn twist - she's not a man.

Yeah, it has always been one of my favorites. I knew it implied Jon, just wasn't sure when. Still not sure, but seemed like this was a good fit depending on the timeline. I know George has said the chapters weren't chronological, and if the letter was a fake who knows what is really going on after the last Theon chapter we get inside. But, I can see this playing a part later if things really did go wrong. The other thing I thought was that they may be stuck on the collapsed section, and we have been shown Giants removing huge snow packs already, boulders aren't that different. And Hodor clearing the entrance to the crypts, with him being referred to as a half giant tied in to my thinking too.

3 hours ago, bemused said:

Meanwhile, back at the wall, I don't think Jon is dead, perhaps not even fully unconscious. I think in his extreme circumstances, his resistance will be broken and there will be a sudden full bonding with ghost. Due to this , when angered he'll become a full-on wolf-berserker (ulfheddin), and while in this state, he will seem to many "more wolf than man" His blind rages have been becoming more extreme. Warging will only increase the tendency (probably the result of his Stark blood being mixed with Targaryen). Sure, he'll have wounds that need tending, but I don't think they'll keep him down.

Exactly! Well for the not dead, more wolfish and berserker part, but I don't think it's wolf related.

I've been examining these moments of his, and I've noticed a few things. One is that the wolf-blood seems to be impulsive, and instinctual behaviour (like Arya, in the Riverlands) but there is a coldness to it. With Jon, he always flexes his burnt hand (fire) and it's tied to high emotions (passion, so more on the fire end), and the one time he really went off he also tasted blood. So fire and blood, and his rage fits with how Visery's describes waking the Dragon to Dany. But, I agree it is mixing the wolf-blood with his fiery temper that will make the difference. But, I suspect it will give him more control, because of the ice blood, not less. But, that he will rage more often, on purpose, making him appear very savage from the outside.

As to the wounds, I believe being linked to Ghost will greatly aid his recovery, and also have never thought he was dead and that we are told cold preserves for a reason, and shown two targ. blooded people in the cold that are alive, when they wouldn't be if they were anywhere else.

3 hours ago, bemused said:

In the same way, Jon pretending to be ghost in the crypts could be foreshadowing for Benjen. There are lots of similarities between their paths.

If the attack inside WF is to come now, I don't see how Jon gets there in time to take part.

Yeah, unless Jon is in the second wave? Or, if Mance is the issue once the Boltons are dealt with since we are given that foreshadowing of Jon and Mance facing off at some point? (Unless you know of a different interpretation of the, "next time you will," comment from Jon?) Or if the troops Benjin need can't get there in time for Stannis/Bolton battle because the tunnel is collapsed and that's where giants come in? We currently have no POV in Winterfell, other than Bran, I suppose. So it just seems like we need to get a POV character in there for something this big.

Speaking of Mance, any thoughts on him and Benjin working together? I can't help but think he came to Winterfell for the kings feast in order to meet with Benjin under the protection of guest right, and that they have been working together all along. I also wonder, based on there not being signs of anyone passing through the Nightfort, if Benjin didn't cross at the shadow tower. The shadow tower guys were late getting to the fist saying it was from wildlings (but we only have their word on that), and took way to much interest in Jon, and getting him to safety at their own expense. But, Benjin crossing there and telling them who Jon was (given that they were all Targ loyalists), that ties some loose ends together for me. (And yes I believe Benjin knows who Jon is, as I think he, as the acting Stark in Winterfell gave Lyanna and Rhaegar permission, and that is why he was sent to the wall. Benjin doing this would be something Ned learned when he went to call the banners, and that is why he was the last to arrive at every battle we hear about, and how he knew where to find her.)

That timeline thing, cleared up a lot for me. But also means that Benjin must be counted on the list of people who could have used the pink letter to try and get Jon off the wall, and to Winterfell...

Tagganaro · June 11, 2018

1 hour ago, Azarial said:

Okay, you were thinking he'd be healed earlier than I was. I was thinking because the cloak at the fist was new that it would be Benjins, and that he left it and couldn't understand why he would leave Jon in danger like that. But, if it were cold hands, and we assume that Benjin told Mormont not to make him a ranger (something I suspect, especially since Mormont seems to know who Jon really is) then he wouldn't believe Jon was in danger, as stewards are normally left at the wall, then when he heard he could have sent help that I'll explain below.

You think Mormont knows who Jon really is? Could I ask you for quotes, etc? Really interesting. I do think Mormont's raven certainly knows who Jon is but not so sure about Mormont.

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Yeah, it has always been one of my favorites. I knew it implied Jon, just wasn't sure when. Still not sure, but seemed like this was a good fit depending on the timeline. I know George has said the chapters weren't chronological, and if the letter was a fake who knows what is really going on after the last Theon chapter we get inside. But, I can see this playing a part later if things really did go wrong. The other thing I thought was that they may be stuck on the collapsed section, and we have been shown Giants removing huge snow packs already, boulders aren't that different. And Hodor clearing the entrance to the crypts, with him being referred to as a half giant tied in to my thinking too.

That is a really interesting quote you found in Harrenhall. Speaking of the crypts and how they may relate to Jon, I've always been so intrigued by the passage in ACOK where Bran somehow reaches out to Jon through Ghost from the crypts in Winterfell. Why? How? We haven't seen Bran do that with any of the other Starks like Arya who we know is also a warg...Is Jon just more powerful than Arya? Or is it again something with the crypts and Jon?

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I've been examining these moments of his, and I've noticed a few things. One is that the wolf-blood seems to be impulsive, and instinctual behaviour (like Arya, in the Riverlands) but there is a coldness to it. With Jon, he always flexes his burnt hand (fire) and it's tied to high emotions (passion, so more on the fire end), and the one time he really went off he also tasted blood. So fire and blood, and his rage fits with how Visery's describes waking the Dragon to Dany. But, I agree it is mixing the wolf-blood with his fiery temper that will make the difference. But, I suspect it will give him more control, because of the ice blood, not less. But, that he will rage more often, on purpose, making him appear very savage from the outside.

I also find it interesting that when Jon goes off in the practice yard, he's thinking about the time Robb says he could never be Lord of Winterfell. I mean, it's certainly a sore spot emotionally for Jon and I could understand that...but I still find it interesting how Jon's "wolf rage" is connected to his bastard status that way.

The other time that sticks out to me where we see Jon's "wolf strength" or whatever you want to call it is a really odd moment, because it's sort of glossed over and nobody ever remarks on it. It's when the Weeper leaves the heads of the rangers Jon sent out near the Wall with those spears. It's stated that it must have taken the wildlings half the night to drive the spears in, yet Jon just plucks it from the ground like it's nothing while it takes at least two guys per spear to get the other ones.

He also lifts Thorne clean off the ground one handed at one point I think.

Azarial · June 11, 2018

2 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

You think Mormont knows who Jon really is? Could I ask you for quotes, etc? Really interesting. I do think Mormont's raven certainly knows who Jon is but not so sure about Mormont.

I will try, it's a longer section and I'm blanking on a key phrase to type into the search. It's when he gives him the sword and it comes with a Targ. history lesson, and Jon asks him why he's telling him this. The whole thing was odd. May actually be the scene where the Raven calls him king.

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That is a really interesting quote you found in Harrenhall. Speaking of the crypts and how they may relate to Jon, I've always been so intrigued by the passage in ACOK where Bran somehow reaches out to Jon through Ghost from the crypts in Winterfell. Why? How? We haven't seen Bran do that with any of the other Starks like Arya who we know is also a warg...Is Jon just more powerful than Arya? Or is it again something with the crypts and Jon?

Another quote I need to track down. But, I think Jon initiated the contact because Half-hand fed him blood porridge, and it seemed oddly like acorn paste, and Jon saw large yellow eyes watching them as they walked. Combined with Jon being fully aware of the dream and Bran, seeing the dragon and thinking he may have talked to Jon, (I think Jon's avatar was that dragon, just like Bran was a tree) seems like it was Jon who synced up with Bran. His is the only wolf that seems to know where all the other wolves are at all times, and I think this connection is due to Ghost being able to do that combined with the blood.

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I also find it interesting that when Jon goes off in the practice yard, he's thinking about the time Robb says he could never be Lord of Winterfell. I mean, it's certainly a sore spot emotionally for Jon and I could understand that...but I still find it interesting how Jon's "wolf rage" is connected to his bastard status that way.

The other time that sticks out to me where we see Jon's "wolf strength" or whatever you want to call it is a really odd moment, because it's sort of glossed over and nobody ever remarks on it. It's when the Weeper leaves the heads of the rangers Jon sent out near the Wall with those spears. It's stated that it must have taken the wildlings half the night to drive the spears in, yet Jon just plucks it from the ground like it's nothing while it takes at least two guys per spear to get the other ones.\

I always think on the significance of that. I also wonder if the heads were from coldhands as it is odd for a normal person to have done it, and we know his ravens/crows eat the eyes of the men at Crasters.

Jon's strength does seem to be linked to strong emotional stress. That is how I linked it up with the Targaryen temper initially as any Stark we see under this kind of stress become cold and focused, even Arya, who is given as an example of wolfblood. And the Brandon duel, he was easily able to stop. Indicating that he was in complete control of his actions. (that is often given as an example of wolfblood, but the difference between that an Jon is huge, as Jon was out of control.)

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He also lifts Thorne clean off the ground one handed at one point I think.

Not only does he do this, but he is injured, sleep deprived and on pain meds. Most normal people would barely be able to stand let alone do that. As this occurs when he has dreamwine then sleeps for the first time, other than naps, in three days? (I think it's three days, but not 100% sure) during the attack on the wall, where he was still severely injured from Queens crown, Maester Aemon wanted him on milk of the poppy, and Jon said no, but his injuries must be pretty bad, and he was on crutches, or at least had a cane too.

When I find the quotes I'll just edit them into the bottom of this post.

I can't find the quotes, I can't think of the right phrases to put into the search, so will have to find the right chapters and read the chapters over, and I've only got the ibooks, so flipping for quotes is a pain. If anyone else knows what I'm looking for feel free to jump in.

bemused · June 11, 2018

@Azarial , @Tagganaro I really don't have time to post on everything I'd like to until later on , but I just wanted to jump in about Jon's rages.. So far, they always come in response to a perceived attack or insult against Stark blood, not so much about being called a bastard (which "fact" he's decided to own, thanks to Tyrion's advice).

The first, against Thorne in AGoT, comes when Thorne is sneering at Jon, but also calling Ned a traitor... next, when Thorne goes beyond merely accusing Jon of breaking his oath, or being a bastard (Jon remained resolute but calm up to that point)

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"Lord Snow is nothing if not arrogant," said Ser Alliser. "He murdered Qhorin, just as his fellow turncloaks did Lord Mormont. It would not surprise me to learn that it was all part of the same fell plot. Benjen Stark may well have a hand in all this as well. For all we know, he is sitting in Mance Rayder's tent even now. You know these Starks, my lord."

"I do," said Janos Slynt. "I know them too well." ... Jon IX, ASoS

Between Thorne and Slynt, Ned and Benjen are included in the smear. We see rage and unnatural strength as he lifts Thorne off the ground by the throat. In these cases, although he's overcome with rage and is difficult to stop, he's aware of what he's doing.

When pulling the Weeper's spear out of the ground, his anger remains under control, and there is no insult to Starks involved.

In his bout with Iron Emmet, he loses it completely. He had reminisced about his "I'm Lord of Winterfell" game with Robb... when he's stunned into that remembrance, he's tasting his own blood (not just any blood), so in a way there's an implication that his Stark blood is not worthy. For the first time, he doesn't remember the rest of the fight.

In his bout with Mance / Rattleshirt, his mouth fills with blood, but he spits it out and remains in his conscious mind.

The other Stark kids display unnatural strength, on occasion, but not the same altered mind state. Rickon, Robb and Arya display a fierce temper occasionally, but (e.g.) even though the Hound has to pull Arya off the Tickler (?), she later remembers in Braavos, how it felt as she was stabbing him again and again.

So while I do think Jon's dragon blood acts as an accelerant, it's tasting blood, particularly his own, with it's wolf blood component, that is the catalyst. Aside: I don't think of wolves as cold, especially when attacking.

I have to fly but here's the rest of that scene from Jon IX, ASoS...

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“Your lies won’t save you now, Lord Snow,” warned Ser Alliser Thorne. “We’ll have the truth from you, bastard.”

“I’ve told you the truth. Our garrons were failing, and Rattleshirt was close behind us. Qhorin told me to pretend to join the wildlings. ‘You must not balk, whatever is asked of you,’ he said. He knew they would make me kill him. Rattleshirt was going to kill him anyway, he knew that too.”

“So now you claim the great Qhorin Halfhand feared this creature?” Slynt looked at Rattleshirt, and snorted.

“All men fear the Lord o’ Bones,” the wildling grumbled. Ser Glendon kicked him, and he lapsed back into silence.

“I never said that,” Jon insisted.

Slynt slammed a fist on the table. “I heard you! Ser Alliser had your measure true enough, it seems. You lie through your bastard’s teeth. Well, I will not suffer it. I will not! You might have fooled this crippled blacksmith, but not Janos Slynt! Oh, no. Janos Slynt does not swallow lies so easily. Did you think my skull was stuffed with cabbage?”

“I don’t know what your skull is stuffed with. My lord.”

“Lord Snow is nothing if not arrogant,” said Ser Alliser. “He murdered Qhorin just as his fellow turncloaks did Lord Mormont. It would not surprise me to learn that it was all part of the same fell plot. Benjen Stark may well have a hand in all this as well. For all we know, he is sitting in Mance Rayder’s tent even now. You know these Starks, my lord.”

“I do,” said Janos Slynt. “I know them too well.”

Jon peeled off his glove and showed them his burned hand. “I burned my hand defending Lord Mormont from a wight. And my uncle was a man of honor. He would never have betrayed his vows.”

“No more than you?” mocked Ser Alliser.

..<snip>.. (Septon Cellador's 2 cents and Aemon's defense of Jon)

“Promise?” said Slynt. “Well, promise may turn false. Qhorin Halfhand’s blood is on his hands. Mormont trusted him, you say, but what of that? I know what it is to be betrayed by men you trusted. Oh, yes. And I know the ways of wolves as well.” He pointed at Jon’s face. “Your father died a traitor.”

“My father was murdered.” Jon was past caring what they did to him, but he would not suffer any more lies about his father.

Slynt purpled. “Murder? You insolent pup. King Robert was not even cold when Lord Eddard moved against his son.” He rose to his feet; a shorter man than Mormont, but thick about the chest and arms, with a gut to match. A small gold spear tipped with red enamel pinned his cloak at the shoulder. “Your father died by the sword, but he was highborn, a King’s Hand. For you, a noose will serve. Ser Alliser, take this turncloak to an ice cell.”

“My lord is wise.” Ser Alliser seized Jon by the arm. Jon yanked away and grabbed the knight by the throat with such ferocity that he lifted him off the floor. He would have throttled him if the Eastwatch men had not pulled him off. Thorne staggered back, rubbing the marks Jon’s fingers had left on his neck. “You see for yourselves, brothers. The boy is a wildling.”

Clegane'sPup · June 11, 2018

4 hours ago, Azarial said:

I can't find the quotes, I can't think of the right phrases to put into the search, so will have to find the right chapters and read the chapters over, and I've only got the ibooks, so flipping for quotes is a pain. If anyone else knows what I'm looking for feel free to jump in.

You are correct; it is difficult to sift through five books and thousands of pages. I’m merely supplying some information. Hope it helps. Me, I have kinda lost track of where ya’ll are going. I’ll keep reading.

Ya’ll have a lot of stuff going on. Very busy posts and many ideas.

New recruit Jon went across a table after Thorne after news of Eddard’s death.

A Game of Thrones - Jon VII And then he heard the laughter, sharp and cruel as a whip, and the voice of Ser Alliser Thorne. "Not only a bastard, but a traitor's bastard," he was telling the men around him. In the blink of an eye, Jon had vaulted onto the table, dagger in his hand. Pyp made a grab for him, but he wrenched his leg away, and then he was sprinting down the table and kicking the bowl from Ser Alliser's hand. Stew went flying everywhere, spattering the brothers. Thorne recoiled. People were shouting, but Jon Snow did not hear them. He lunged at Ser Alliser's face with the dagger, slashing at those cold onyx eyes, but Sam threw himself between them and before Jon could get around him, Pyp was on his back clinging like a monkey, and Grenn was grabbing his arm while Toad wrenched the knife from his fingers./

The throat grabbing thing happened in SoS.

A Storm of Swords - Jon IX "My lord is wise." Ser Alliser seized Jon by the arm. Jon yanked away and grabbed the knight by the throat with such ferocity that he lifted him off the floor. He would have throttled him if the Eastwatch men had not pulled him off. Thorne staggered back, rubbing the marks Jon's fingers had left on his neck. "You see for yourselves, brothers. The boy is a wildling."/

Mormont gave Jon the sword and spoke of the Mormont family history.

A Game of Thrones - Jon VIII He is giving me his son's sword. Jon could scarcely believe it. The blade was exquisitely balanced. The edges glimmered faintly as they kissed the light. "Your son—" "My son brought dishonor to House Mormont, but at least he had the grace to leave the sword behind when he fled. My sister returned it to my keeping, but the very sight of it reminded me of Jorah's shame, so I put it aside and thought no more of it until we found it in the ashes of my bedchamber. The original pommel was a bear's head, silver, yet so worn its features were all but indistinguishable. For you, I thought a white wolf more apt. One of our builders is a fair stonecarver."/

Mormont talks to Jon about Targs --- Aemon.

A Clash of Kings - Jon I "So he was. His father's father was Daeron Targaryen, the Second of His Name, who brought Dorne into the realm. Part of the pact was that he wed a Dornish princess. She gave him four sons. Aemon's father Maekar was the youngest of those, and Aemon was his third son. Mind you, all this happened long before I was born, ancient as Smallwood would make me." "Maester Aemon was named for the Dragonknight." "So he was. Some say Prince Aemon was King Daeron's true father, not Aegon the Unworthy. Be that as it may, our Aemon lacked the Dragonknight's martial nature. He likes to say he had a slow sword but quick wits. Small wonder his grandfather packed him off to the Citadel. He was nine or ten, I believe . . . and ninth or tenth in the line of succession as well."/

Nevets · June 11, 2018

I don't really have a good idea as to who the Hooded Man is, but I suspect that it is somebody Theon recognizes and knows doesn't belong there. I tend to go back and forth between Hal Mollis and Septon Chayle (who got tossed down the well, but might have swum to safety). I also like Howland Reed as a possibility, and even Benjen sometimes.

With regard to Benjen, though, I think he is elsewhere. My own feeling is that he is doing something to do with the Others, either spying on them, negotiating with them, or held prisoner. I think Davos might run into him, as I don't believe he is going to simply go to Skagos and return with Rickon. I think he will end up at Hardhome, and subsequently the Far North.

Azarial · June 11, 2018

1 hour ago, Clegane'sPup said:

You are correct; it is difficult to sift through five books and thousands of pages. I’m merely supplying some information.   Hope it helps.    Me, I have kinda lost track of where ya’ll are going. I’ll keep reading.

Ya’ll have a lot of stuff going on. Very busy posts and many ideas.

New recruit Jon went across a table after Thorne after news of Eddard’s death.

A Game of Thrones - Jon VII      And then he heard the laughter, sharp and cruel as a whip, and the voice of Ser Alliser Thorne. "Not only a bastard, but a traitor's bastard," he was telling the men around him.      In the blink of an eye, Jon had vaulted onto the table, dagger in his hand. Pyp made a grab for him, but he wrenched his leg away, and then he was sprinting down the table and kicking the bowl from Ser Alliser's hand. Stew went flying everywhere, spattering the brothers. Thorne recoiled. People were shouting, but Jon Snow did not hear them. He lunged at Ser Alliser's face with the dagger, slashing at those cold onyx eyes, but Sam threw himself between them and before Jon could get around him, Pyp was on his back clinging like a monkey, and Grenn was grabbing his arm while Toad wrenched the knife from his fingers./

The throat grabbing thing happened in SoS.

A Storm of Swords - Jon IX    "My lord is wise." Ser Alliser seized Jon by the arm.   Jon yanked away and grabbed the knight by the throat with such ferocity that he lifted him off the floor. He would have throttled him if the Eastwatch men had not pulled him off. Thorne staggered back, rubbing the marks Jon's fingers had left on his neck. "You see for yourselves, brothers. The boy is a wildling."/

Mormont gave Jon the sword and spoke of the Mormont family history.

A Game of Thrones - Jon VIII      He is giving me his son's sword. Jon could scarcely believe it. The blade was exquisitely balanced. The edges glimmered faintly as they kissed the light. "Your son—"     "My son brought dishonor to House Mormont, but at least he had the grace to leave the sword behind when he fled. My sister returned it to my keeping, but the very sight of it reminded me of Jorah's shame, so I put it aside and thought no more of it until we found it in the ashes of my bedchamber. The original pommel was a bear's head, silver, yet so worn its features were all but indistinguishable. For you, I thought a white wolf more apt. One of our builders is a fair stonecarver."/

Mormont talks to Jon about Targs --- Aemon.

A Clash of Kings - Jon I      "So he was. His father's father was Daeron Targaryen, the Second of His Name, who brought Dorne into the realm. Part of the pact was that he wed a Dornish princess. She gave him four sons. Aemon's father Maekar was the youngest of those, and Aemon was his third son. Mind you, all this happened long before I was born, ancient as Smallwood would make me."   "Maester Aemon was named for the Dragonknight."     "So he was. Some say Prince Aemon was King Daeron's true father, not Aegon the Unworthy. Be that as it may, our Aemon lacked the Dragonknight's martial nature. He likes to say he had a slow sword but quick wits. Small wonder his grandfather packed him off to the Citadel. He was nine or ten, I believe . . . and ninth or tenth in the line of succession as well."/

Perfect, thanks! Now at least I know what chapters to read through so I can remember exactly what he said that made me wonder if he knew. It was Jon's reaction that got me wondering, so that's why I need to go read the whole section.

bemused · June 12, 2018

8 hours ago, Nevets said:

I don't really have a good idea as to who the Hooded Man is, but I suspect that it is somebody Theon recognizes and knows doesn't belong there. I tend to go back and forth between Hal Mollis and Septon Chayle (who got tossed down the well, but might have swum to safety). I also like Howland Reed as a possibility, and even Benjen sometimes.

I think you should cross Chayle off your list. In Theon V, ACoK, Theon has a true dream of dining with the dead. All the corpses he sees are people he knows to be dead, or some, he didn't know to be dead for sure, but we do. At the same time, people he appears to think are dead (E.G. Benjen) are not there.. Here's most of it...

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That night he dreamed of the feast Ned Stark had thrown when King Robert came to Winterfell. The hall rang with music and laughter, ..<snip>.. Suddenly the wine turned bitter in his mouth, and when he looked up from his cup he saw that he was dining with the dead.

King Robert sat with his guts spilling out on the table from the great gash in his belly, and Lord Eddard was headless beside him. Corpses lined the benches below, grey-brown flesh sloughing off their bones as they raised their cups to toast, worms crawling in and out of the holes that were their eyes. He knew them, every one; Jory Cassel and Fat Tom, Porther and Cayn and Hullen the master of horse, and all the others who had ridden south to King's Landing never to return. Mikken and Chayle sat together, one dripping blood and the other water. Benfred Tallhart and his Wild Hares filled most of a table. The miller's wife was there as well, and Farlen, even the wildling Theon had killed in the wolfswood the day he had saved Bran's life.

But there were others with faces he had never known in life, faces he had seen only in stone. The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore could only be Lyanna. Her brother Brandon stood beside her, and their father Lord Rickard just behind. Along the walls figures half-seen moved through the shadows, pale shades with long grim faces. The sight of them sent fear shivering through Theon sharp as a knife. And then the tall doors opened with a crash, and a freezing gale blew down the hall, and Robb came walking out of the night. Grey Wind stalked beside, eyes burning, and man and wolf alike bled from half a hundred savage wounds.

Theon wakes screaming... of course, this is the first sign he has that Robb is dead, and it is right around the time of the Red Wedding. The half-seen pale shades would be long dead Starks that he later feels in WF. I don't think Chayle, a really, really unimportant character would be any different from the others.

Azarial · June 12, 2018

Okay, I decided to just do a quick Jon only re-read (picking up from where I was about half way through GoT). Make my life easier for all the Jon threads I've found myself on lol.

So for Mormont, now that I'm jogging my foggy memory. The clues are subtle, and can be taken more than one way. So I won't say 100% he knew (not that I ever did, just that I suspected) but here is what I've re-read so far.

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If you insist, my lord," Tyrion said. "You might send young Snow. He would be glad for a chance to see his brothers."

Mormont frowned through his thick grey beard. "Snow? Oh, the Stark bastard. I think not. The young ones need to forget the lives they left behind them, the brothers and mothers and all that. A visit home would only stir up feelings best left alone. I know these things. My own blood kin … my sister Maege rules Bear Island now, since my son's dishonor. I have nieces I have never seen." He took a swallow. "Besides, Jon Snow is only a boy. You shall have three strong swords, to keep you safe."

So, what got me about this one is that Jon is well known to all the men at Castle Black because of both his uncle and his run in with Thorne. He would also have gotten made note of by Mormont because of him being Benjin's nephew, Ned's son, and arriving with Benjin and Tyrion. But, we also know that he talked to him about Bran. So given all of that, his reaction here seems off. Not that he wouldn't send him, that I agree with, and seems like a normal thing for an organization like this. But, his seeming to take a minute to know who Tyrion was talking about, followed by emphasizing the Stark bastard aspect, then over explaining his reasoning. The old, he doth protest to much thing.

On it's own, meh. My feeling is from many little things like this.

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"Father," taunted the old raven, bobbing its head as it walked across Mormont's shoulders. "Father."

The Lord Commander reached up to pinch its beak shut, but the raven hopped up on his head, fluttered its wings, and flew across the chamber to light above a window. "Grief and noise," Mormont grumbled. "That's all they're good for, ravens. Why I put up with that pestilential bird … if there was news of Lord Eddard, don't you think I would have sent for you? Bastard or no, you're still his blood. The message concerned Ser Barristan Selmy. It seems he's been removed from the Kingsguard. They gave his place to that black dog Clegane, and now Selmy's wanted for treason. The fools sent some watchmen to seize him, but he slew two of them and escaped." Mormont snorted, leaving no doubt of his view of men who'd send gold cloaks against a knight as renowed as Barristan the Bold. "We have white shadows in the woods and unquiet dead stalking our halls, and a boy sits the Iron Throne," he said in disgust.

The raven laughed shrilly. "Boy, boy, boy, boy."

(Thanks @Clegane'sPup for helping me find this one.) This one I only noticed after already wondering, and would never notice it on an initial read. But, when Jon asks about his father and the bird begins to talk, and Mormont sees the need to silence it, well it made me wonder what the bird had said to Mormont before. Then he calls Lord Eddard Jon's blood, not father and we all know what that meant in Eddard's own chapters. And this is all tied in with talk of the last remaining Targaryen Kings guard, and Jon being given a sword. Once again, it was just off enough to catch my attention.

This is as far as I am on my re-read. I believe there are a few less subtle ones later, like mormonts reaction to the King thing, and the flying horse comment, but really it's just a feeling I got based off mostly subtle things like this that just seem...off.

@bemused in my reading yesterday I also noticed a few more rage incidents that didn't have a link to family, it's amazing how much of this you see when looking for it he really is angry in book one. The differences I see are that he has a bit of forewarning for things like the heads, and that mitigates some of the rage and doesn't he have ghost with him? I think this might be important. Where as the family stuff catches him off guard. Plus it's just a matter of him loving his family, so those emotions are stronger. That's why I am not convinced that it is a blood connection to the Stark's triggering it. But, do fully agree that his merged blood lines are causing his reactions to be abnormal for both sides of his family, perhaps the impulsiveness of the Stark's with the temper of the Targaryen's is what creates the berserker?

As to the wolf thing, I just mean the human wolves as they are often described as icy, cold, stony. And while we hear of Ned, say, scarring people. It's usually his icy tone, not yelling or getting emotional. Even subtle things, like how Theon seems the most intimidated by Jon when really, it should be Robb. Shows a difference in their emotional state. Arya has some kills, but she almost seems to hunt, like the guard at Harrenhall where she dropped the coin. It was very cold and calculated. She did try to run to her family at the Twins, but she was fully aware and as rational as could be expected of a child who doesn't comprehend the danger. And while she did stab the guy at the crossroads, it was more self defense in the beginning, she stood and watched for most of it, and in the end she went overboard because she had been being strong for her friends, and holding it all in for so long that she just needed a physical release. But, she was acting calmer than most people her age, in her situation would. And for 90% of her arc she is very calm and in control, especially for her age. Making note of names for later, remembering faces, making plans. Sansa on the walk with Jeof, when she contemplated pushing him, same thing a very cold rage.

Jon just flies into a blind rage and takes everyone on the instant it happens. The other thing to note, is that Ghost is either not present or not reacting when these rages happen. So I'll try and see if I can notice a trend as I continue my re-read, but I think the Stark side, Ghost's presence, may be helping him control his rage. Where the other Stark's seem more aggressive and emotional when the wolves are present. So I do find that interesting. This is easiest to see with Sansa, as we have some clear examples of with and without. But also the difference between Arya, in the beginning against Jeof, to how she is later when she feels like a mouse. Bran and Summer are never apart, so it's hard to say with him. Rickon is not shown much, and is so young he's still temper tantrum age so very hard to separate. Robb, is pretty clear. He is much stronger and more assertive with Greywind around. Jon, on the other hand has some of his most tender moments with Ghost around, like comforting Sam, and most aggressive, defensive and miserable moments when apart. The aggression is the inverse of the other Stark's. Not sure what to make of that, or what it might mean for the future. If his resurrection involves sacrificing Ghost, as some speculate it could make him very aggressive and defensive of his family.

Found, lots of hints to Ben being alive in Jon's thoughts too. If we consider that he does seem to intuitively know things, this does add to what you were saying about Winterfell, though at this point his thoughts are linked to him being first ranger, no Stark link yet. But I'm keeping an eye out.

Tagganaro · June 12, 2018

10 minutes ago, Azarial said:

Okay, I decided to just do a quick Jon only re-read (picking up from where I was about half way through GoT). Make my life easier for all the Jon threads I've found myself on lol.

So for Mormont, now that I'm jogging my foggy memory. The clues are subtle, and can be taken more than one way. So I won't say 100% he knew (not that I ever did, just that I suspected) but here is what I've re-read so far.

So, what got me about this one is that Jon is well known to all the men at Castle Black because of both his uncle and his run in with Thorne. He would also have gotten made note of by Mormont because of him being Benjin's nephew, Ned's son, and arriving with Benjin and Tyrion. But, we also know that he talked to him about Bran. So given all of that, his reaction here seems off. Not that he wouldn't send him, that I agree with, and seems like a normal thing for an organization like this. But, his seeming to take a minute to know who Tyrion was talking about, followed by emphasizing the Stark bastard aspect, then over explaining his reasoning. The old, he doth protest to much thing.

On it's own, meh. My feeling is from many little things like this.

Interesting. I don't get that impression at all but I appreciate the effort and the outside the box thinking :cheers: . I could see it more with Aemon although I don't think anyone knows either besides for maybe Mormont's raven/Bloodraven.

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@bemused in my reading yesterday I also noticed a few more rage incidents that didn't have a link to family, it's amazing how much of this you see when looking for it he really is angry in book one. The differences I see are that he has a bit of forewarning for things like the heads, and that mitigates some of the rage and doesn't he have ghost with him? I think this might be important. Where as the family stuff catches him off guard. Plus it's just a matter of him loving his family, so those emotions are stronger. That's why I am not convinced that it is a blood connection to the Stark's triggering it. But, do fully agree that his merged blood lines are causing his reactions to be abnormal for both sides of his family, perhaps the impulsiveness of the Stark's with the temper of the Targaryen's is what creates the berserker?

As to the wolf thing, I just mean the human wolves as they are often described as icy, cold, stony. And while we hear of Ned, say, scarring people. It's usually his icy tone, not yelling or getting emotional. Even subtle things, like how Theon seems the most intimidated by Jon when really, it should be Robb. Shows a difference in their emotional state. Arya has some kills, but she almost seems to hunt, like the guard at Harrenhall where she dropped the coin. It was very cold and calculated. She did try to run to her family at the Twins, but she was fully aware and as rational as could be expected of a child who doesn't comprehend the danger. And while she did stab the guy at the crossroads, it was more self defense in the beginning, she stood and watched for most of it, and in the end she went overboard because she had been being strong for her friends, and holding it all in for so long that she just needed a physical release. But, she was acting calmer than most people her age, in her situation would. And for 90% of her arc she is very calm and in control, especially for her age. Making note of names for later, remembering faces, making plans. Sansa on the walk with Jeof, when she contemplated pushing him, same thing a very cold rage.

I think it's fair to argue there is both an "ice" and a "fire" side to the wolf-blood, even though wolves are linked to Starks which are certainly linked to ice and winter. My meaning being that like you may say Ned is more of an "ice", his brother Brandon is clearly more of a "fire". Arya has a mix as well I would say, because if we're linking ice to cold and calculating and fire to passion and impulsiveness then you certainly see Arya react in both ways to things (like good call on the Harrenhall guard being cold and calculated, but then on the other hand you have the Tickler and Arya taking out all her rage on him).

Finally I want to add that I didn't feel like going back through the thread to find your response to the Jon/Bran- Ghost/Summer thing, but I do recall that Bran afterwards in the crypts thinks that Bran himself "touched" Jon through Ghost. I mean that's not necessarily him saying I was the active one, but it seems like it. And when you think about what actually happened there it would make sense Bran was the impetus as he's the one "touching" Jon to get him to open up his 3rd eye more.

7 hours ago, bemused said:

I think you should cross Chayle off your list. In Theon V, ACoK, Theon has a true dream of dining with the dead. All the corpses he sees are people he knows to be dead, or some, he didn't know to be dead for sure, but we do. At the same time, people he appears to think are dead (E.G. Benjen) are not there.. Here's most of it...

Theon wakes screaming... of course, this is the first sign he has that Robb is dead, and it is right around the time of the Red Wedding. The half-seen pale shades would be long dead Starks that he later feels in WF. I don't think Chayle, a really, really unimportant character would be any different from the others.

Yes good point. Plus I don't see such a minor character, and a septon at that, being able to pull off the Hooded Man scheme. I think Hallis Mollen and Harwin are safer bets for the Hooded Man. We have no idea where Mollen is, last thing we heard if I remember correctly is that he was with the escort for Ned's bones back to Winterfell and we don't know where he is, or if he even made it before Theon took Winterfell. He makes sense as someone who would talk to Theon that way- with a certain familiarity but not enough for Theon to know right away who he was.

Harwin is a tougher sell because it's implied he's still with Stoneheart as of the end of AFFC/ADWD. Brienne describes a northman who is interpreting Stoneheart's speech which seems like it may be Harwin although it could be one of the other Northmen who was with Beric initially.

Azarial · June 12, 2018

39 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

Interesting. I don't get that impression at all but I appreciate the effort and the outside the box thinking . I could see it more with Aemon although I don't think anyone knows either besides for maybe Mormont's raven/Bloodraven.

Yeah, it really needs a lot of tiny odd things to make sense. And I do think it is the Raven that has either clued him in, or has him questioning at the very least. Maybe, he was dreamwalked like Jon at the end of Dance? maybe he wonders but isn't sure? I don't know. Not something I'm confident in, other than thinking he's acting odd lol Oh, and Aemon doesn't know, it's made really clear in his conversations with Sam on the way to the Citadel. And I think we are shown why, when Mormont is complaining of everyone knowing everything, and we find out it's because people overhear things being read allowed to Aemon. The risk of telling him would be to great.

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I think it's fair to argue there is both an "ice" and a "fire" side to the wolf-blood, even though wolves are linked to Starks which are certainly linked to ice and winter. My meaning being that like you may say Ned is more of an "ice", his brother Brandon is clearly more of a "fire". Arya has a mix as well I would say, because if we're linking ice to cold and calculating and fire to passion and impulsiveness then you certainly see Arya react in both ways to things (like good call on the Harrenhall guard being cold and calculated, but then on the other hand you have the Tickler and Arya taking out all her rage on him).

Hard to say. As a fight over your fiancee should get you to be out of control if it's linked to that. But he was cold, in that he wounded him to near death, but was able to stop at exactly that point and asked him to yield multiple times before that point. Going to kings landing seems impulsive, to be sure. But I suspect that there is much we don't know about that yet. And Arya's tickler stuff I need to read again to be sure. But, to me she seemed very calm for the situation based on what I remember, up until the end, but given all that she's been through I just don't see that as an abnormal or magically based rage. Just the emotions of a 10 (ish) year old girl needing a place to go. And her in Bravos was very cold and calculated. As was her reaction to the Hound if you picture how she would seem from his POV.

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Finally I want to add that I didn't feel like going back through the thread to find your response to the Jon/Bran- Ghost/Summer thing, but I do recall that Bran afterwards in the crypts thinks that Bran himself "touched" Jon through Ghost. I mean that's not necessarily him saying I was the active one, but it seems like it. And when you think about what actually happened there it would make sense Bran was the impetus as he's the one "touching" Jon to get him to open up his 3rd eye more.

Touched Ghost, talked to Jon. I just looked. I took that as once the connection was made by Jon, then Bran touched Ghost, to open the third eye, then the dragon scene. But as Bran's time in Summer is a bit surreal, and his thoughts don't seem to be in sequential order, as he's remembering and seeing at once, it's hard to say. My main reason for suspecting Jon is that Ghost seems connected to all the wolves at all times. Where Bran seems to connect with other Stark's only later in his timeline. But, since Jon and Bran don't seem to know what happened odds are we never will either. I see this as an ability of Ghost, not Jon, and that Bran being the strongest was the most receptive if that makes sense. And it ties in to Ghost's red eyes, and eyes open first, looks like a heart tree stuff. That said, since Bran is training it could be that he initiated and Jon was the only receptive one for all the same reasons. Maybe, they just both reached out at the same time.

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Yes good point. Plus I don't see such a minor character, and a septon at that, being able to pull off the Hooded Man scheme. I think Hallis Mollen and Harwin are safer bets for the Hooded Man. We have no idea where Mollen is, last thing we heard if I remember correctly is that he was with the escort for Ned's bones back to Winterfell and we don't know where he is, or if he even made it before Theon took Winterfell. He makes sense as someone who would talk to Theon that way- with a certain familiarity but not enough for Theon to know right away who he was.

Harwin is a tougher sell because it's implied he's still with Stoneheart as of the end of AFFC/ADWD. Brienne describes a northman who is interpreting Stoneheart's speech which seems like it may be Harwin although it could be one of the other Northmen who was with Beric initially.

Hallis has always been my suspicion, but the implications of it being Benjin make me want to consider it more.

Tagganaro · June 12, 2018

4 hours ago, Azarial said:

Yeah, it really needs a lot of tiny odd things to make sense. And I do think it is the Raven that has either clued him in, or has him questioning at the very least. Maybe, he was dreamwalked like Jon at the end of Dance? maybe he wonders but isn't sure? I don't know. Not something I'm confident in, other than thinking he's acting odd lol Oh, and Aemon doesn't know, it's made really clear in his conversations with Sam on the way to the Citadel. And I think we are shown why, when Mormont is complaining of everyone knowing everything, and we find out it's because people overhear things being read allowed to Aemon. The risk of telling him would be to great.

I always wonder about that damn raven...is there any indication how long he's been with Mormont? Did Mormont find him or did the raven outlive Mormont? Does every LC get that raven? Why does Mormont put up with the raven if he finds him so damn annoying? Why does Jon put up with it? Why did the raven eat Mormont's face after he died? So many questions and so few answers . Yeah to be clear I don't think Aemon knows at all either haha or otherwise he'd probably think of Jon as AA/TPTWP instead of Dany.

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Hard to say. As a fight over your fiancee should get you to be out of control if it's linked to that. But he was cold, in that he wounded him to near death, but was able to stop at exactly that point and asked him to yield multiple times before that point. Going to kings landing seems impulsive, to be sure. But I suspect that there is much we don't know about that yet. And Arya's tickler stuff I need to read again to be sure. But, to me she seemed very calm for the situation based on what I remember, up until the end, but given all that she's been through I just don't see that as an abnormal or magically based rage. Just the emotions of a 10 (ish) year old girl needing a place to go. And her in Bravos was very cold and calculated. As was her reaction to the Hound if you picture how she would seem from his POV.

Brandon's supposed to be a pretty good swordsman, while LF is a joke. I can't even see Brandon taking him remotely seriously as it's such an unfair fight. I don't really think of it as a "fight" in that way. I can't see any other way of interpreting Brandon's actions in going to KL and calling out Rhaegar...impulsive is putting it lightly haha. It just seems like Brandon is a total hothead (pun intended) based on the descriptions of him. But yes, you could be right that there's more to learn about it.

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Touched Ghost, talked to Jon. I just looked. I took that as once the connection was made by Jon, then Bran touched Ghost, to open the third eye, then the dragon scene. But as Bran's time in Summer is a bit surreal, and his thoughts don't seem to be in sequential order, as he's remembering and seeing at once, it's hard to say. My main reason for suspecting Jon is that Ghost seems connected to all the wolves at all times. Where Bran seems to connect with other Stark's only later in his timeline. But, since Jon and Bran don't seem to know what happened odds are we never will either. I see this as an ability of Ghost, not Jon, and that Bran being the strongest was the most receptive if that makes sense. And it ties in to Ghost's red eyes, and eyes open first, looks like a heart tree stuff. That said, since Bran is training it could be that he initiated and Jon was the only receptive one for all the same reasons. Maybe, they just both reached out at the same time.

I still see it as important that Bran is in the crypts at the moment this happened. It just seems very clear that at least early on in the books (and honestly continues through the most recent ones), Jon is heavily connected with those crypts. He has multiple dreams about them in AGOT, and with the continued focus on them per Lady Dustin/Theon/Mance in ADWD I see them as being rather important, particularly to Jon's arc.

Personally I don't see the direwolves as having any kind of special unique powers- meaning that I think of them more as extensions of each of the Stark children. They seem to adapt their child's personalities, but outside of that I can't recall one instance where a direwolf portrayed some kind of unique power other than being badass wolves and having premonitions/spidey senses.

So I would view it more as either Jon reaching out to Bran or vice versa. And knowing where each particular one of them was at that moment as far as where their warging powers were, Bran was far ahead of Jon so it would make more sense to me if Bran did that.

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Hallis has always been my suspicion, but the implications of it being Benjin make me want to consider it more.

I still just have trouble with the idea of Benjen leaving his post like that, again unless there's some sort of crazy magical reason why a Stark must be in Winterfell. And that still raises the question of what Benjen has been doing this entire time since basically the beginning of AGOT when he disappears- there is a period of several months if not a year (I'm not good with timeline but I would guess it has to be at least 6 months?) between when he disappears to when Ramsay sacks Winterfell and Bran/Rickon leave. Is Benjen just chilling North of the Wall waiting for Winterfell to be sacked? I don't see him sitting by while Winterfell and its inhabitants are endangered, particularly Bran/Rickon so I can't see him being anywhere near Winterfell at this time or knowing what is going on.

If we are to see Benjen again in the books, I'd think he'd be North of the Wall doing something with the Others.

Nevets · June 12, 2018

14 hours ago, bemused said:

I think you should cross Chayle off your list. In Theon V, ACoK, Theon has a true dream of dining with the dead. All the corpses he sees are people he knows to be dead, or some, he didn't know to be dead for sure, but we do. At the same time, people he appears to think are dead (E.G. Benjen) are not there.. Here's most of it...

I'm perfectly happy to cross his name off. I'm not sure I ever really considered it seriously. To be honest, I have no idea who it might be, if not Hal Mollis, unless it is somebody completely out of left field that hasn't even been considered.

At the time Benjen disappeared, Winterfell was in secure hands, and there was no indication that it ever wouldn't be. Therefore, I think Benjen's disappearance was for other reasons. I still think it is something to do with the others, and we will see some sign of him in TWOW (if it ever comes)

kissdbyfire · June 12, 2018

26 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

I always wonder about that damn raven...is there any indication how long he's been with Mormont?

I think the only bit we get about this is here:

ADwD, Jon I

Mormont's raven watched with shrewd black eyes, then fluttered to the window. "Do you take me for your thrall?" When Jon folded back the window with its thick diamond-shaped panes of yellow glass, the chill of the morning hit him in the face. He took a breath to clear away the cobwebs of the night as the raven flapped away. That bird is too clever by half. It had been the Old Bear's companion for long years, but that had not stopped it from eating Mormont's face once he died.

26 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

Did Mormont find him or did the raven outlive Mormont?

Do you mean did the raven outlive Mormont's predecessor, LC Qorgyle? Coz the raven definitely outlived Mormont, we can safely cross that one off the list.

26 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

Does every LC get that raven? Why does Mormont put up with the raven if he finds him so damn annoying?

But he doesn't, he loves that bird! Only he is a gruff old bear and the LC besides, and probably thinks it's not fitting for him to be seen as doting on the raven or something. IMO, of course.

26 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

Why does Jon put up with it?

He also likes the bird... This is just one instance, but Jon is always talking to the raven too. I mean, the signs that he is fond of the raven are all there.

ADwD, Jon XI

"Did you follow me as well?" Jon reached to shoo the bird away but ended up stroking its feathers. The raven cocked its eye at him. "Snow," it muttered, bobbing its head knowingly. Then Ghost emerged from between two trees, with Val beside him.

26 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

Why did the raven eat Mormont's face after he died? So many questions and so few answers .

Because it's a raven and doesn't have our issues w/ things like this? I really don't think there's any hidden meaning or reason there... :dunno:

Alexis-something-Rose · June 13, 2018

19 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

Finally I want to add that I didn't feel like going back through the thread to find your response to the Jon/Bran- Ghost/Summer thing, but I do recall that Bran afterwards in the crypts thinks that Bran himself "touched" Jon through Ghost. I mean that's not necessarily him saying I was the active one, but it seems like it. And when you think about what actually happened there it would make sense Bran was the impetus as he's the one "touching" Jon to get him to open up his 3rd eye more.

This for me always raises the question of what Jojen told Bran about dreaming of the chained winged wolf and identifying him as Bran and if he's wrong in what he thinks.

Bran opens his third eye on his own. The crypt at Winterfell is exactly like Bloodraven's cave. Bran himself says that Winterfell from above looks like a giant weirwood and that its roots run deep. The roots of Winterfell the weirwood would the crypts.

So if Bran managed to open his third eye because of the environment he was in and reached across the Wall to Ghost and helped Jon open himself up to his own abilities, doesn't that make Jon this chained winged wolf?

Azarial · June 13, 2018

1 hour ago, Widow's Watch said:

This for me always raises the question of what Jojen told Bran about dreaming of the chained winged wolf and identifying him as Bran and if he's wrong in what he thinks.

Bran opens his third eye on his own. The crypt at Winterfell is exactly like Bloodraven's cave. Bran himself says that Winterfell from above looks like a giant weirwood and that its roots run deep. The roots of Winterfell the weirwood would the crypts.

So if Bran managed to open his third eye because of the environment he was in and reached across the Wall to Ghost and helped Jon open himself up to his own abilities, doesn't that make Jon this chained winged wolf?

Do you remember if the crow freed him before or after this point? I get mixed up in the timeline with Bran as so many of his scenes are similar.

16 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

I always wonder about that damn raven...is there any indication how long he's been with Mormont? Did Mormont find him or did the raven outlive Mormont? Does every LC get that raven? Why does Mormont put up with the raven if he finds him so damn annoying? Why does Jon put up with it? Why did the raven eat Mormont's face after he died? So many questions and so few answers . Yeah to be clear I don't think Aemon knows at all either haha or otherwise he'd probably think of Jon as AA/TPTWP instead of Dany.

I thought eating him would give the bird his knowledge. Similar to being absorbed by the weirnet since the trees abilities seem linked to blood.

The men seemed to link the Raven to command, but we're never told why. I wondered if it wasn't Bloodravens Raven, and is still alive because he is. Same as how the Stark's and their wolves seem to share a life. But that's just a guess based off of it seeming like Bloodraven skin changes it, a lot.

That reminds me of where he tells Sam he wasted his life on the wall (not in those words) made me wonder if his going to the wall didn't have something to do with succession and the prophecy, not just the succession of Egg. And that is why he was so willing to buy into it being Stannis at first.

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Brandon's supposed to be a pretty good swordsman, while LF is a joke. I can't even see Brandon taking him remotely seriously as it's such an unfair fight. I don't really think of it as a "fight" in that way. I can't see any other way of interpreting Brandon's actions in going to KL and calling out Rhaegar...impulsive is putting it lightly haha. It just seems like Brandon is a total hothead (pun intended) based on the descriptions of him. But yes, you could be right that there's more to learn about it.

Just the way it's told doesn't seem believable. Who goes to the Redkeep and yells for the Prince to come out and die? And GRRM has shown us how the tales told are seldom the truth. The going at all is impulsive, the rest just doesn't seem right, even Jinglebell would know better than to do that. So I won't believe this version until we see a flashback from someone who was there. Jamie saw the aftermath, but his recollection of how it started seems to be second hand, as there was zero detail.

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I still see it as important that Bran is in the crypts at the moment this happened. It just seems very clear that at least early on in the books (and honestly continues through the most recent ones), Jon is heavily connected with those crypts. He has multiple dreams about them in AGOT, and with the continued focus on them per Lady Dustin/Theon/Mance in ADWD I see them as being rather important, particularly to Jon's arc.

But if its Jon's link to the crypts that is the factor, then the connection would be from Jon not Bran as Jon always dreams of the crypts or of Ghost. Bran was trying to warg summer, but nothing else. Jon remembers the 'dream' in detail, and Bran isn't sure it even happened. This makes Jon's experience/connection at this moment seem stronger no?

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Personally I don't see the direwolves as having any kind of special unique powers- meaning that I think of them more as extensions of each of the Stark children. They seem to adapt their child's personalities, but outside of that I can't recall one instance where a direwolf portrayed some kind of unique power other than being badass wolves and having premonitions/spidey senses.

Hard to say, especially Shaggydog, but we have seen things with Ghost and those are the two with Red and Green eyes. Ghost did mentally call out to Jon in book one, and they are the first to have established the warging bond. Jon is also the first one we see be able to connect with the wolf while still being fully aware of his own surroundings, and not sleeping. Bran's body always goes to sleep and he looses himself in being a wolf. Ghost also is the only one aware of where all his litter-mates are. Jon could see that Mel was using the love/lust powder just from touching Ghost (not that he knew why she appeared as Ygritte, but still he wasn't supposed to notice anything off as she was trying to win his trust through Ghost by tricking Ghost into thinking she as Jon.) He knew when Ghost came back by sensing his hunger. Ghost found the wights, ghost found the dragon glass and horn at the fist. Ghost wouldn't even enter the ring fort at the fist until he came to lead Jon away. So I'd say Ghost is special. And I'd also say that Jon and Ghosts bond is the strongest, except for maybe Shaggydog, but I suspect the wolf is in control there.

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So I would view it more as either Jon reaching out to Bran or vice versa. And knowing where each particular one of them was at that moment as far as where their warging powers were, Bran was far ahead of Jon so it would make more sense to me if Bran did that.

Was he far ahead though? He needed to be shown how to warg. Jon just does it naturally. And like I said above he seems in better control of it, as he can do it awake even if he doesn't understand it. Bran has to force his whole mind into summer, and loses all sense of time, and even the fact that he's a human and separate from Summer. Jon only fully merges with Ghost when he's asleep, and I don't think this will change, as he doesn't need to loose himself in order to connect.

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I still just have trouble with the idea of Benjen leaving his post like that, again unless there's some sort of crazy magical reason why a Stark must be in Winterfell. And that still raises the question of what Benjen has been doing this entire time since basically the beginning of AGOT when he disappears- there is a period of several months if not a year (I'm not good with timeline but I would guess it has to be at least 6 months?) between when he disappears to when Ramsay sacks Winterfell and Bran/Rickon leave. Is Benjen just chilling North of the Wall waiting for Winterfell to be sacked? I don't see him sitting by while Winterfell and its inhabitants are endangered, particularly Bran/Rickon so I can't see him being anywhere near Winterfell at this time or knowing what is going on.

If we are to see Benjen again in the books, I'd think he'd be North of the Wall doing something with the Others.

Yeah, it's interesting but there are issues to be sure.

And the hooded man sneaking in to return Ned's remains does fit best with the foreshadowing we've been given. My guess is he came in with the Manderly's and has been the one trying to get the crypts uncovered so that the remains can be placed there. Coming with Manderly would have put him in contact with Mance and the washerwomen as well, and would explain why they are so obsessed with being shown the crypts, not because they didn't know where they were, but because they needed a good reason for someone to uncover the access. And would link up with them being pro Stark, as was mentioned earlier in this thread. If Mance realized Arya was a fake, but found out about the remains he may have seen this as a new way to earn Jon's trust. His original 'ploy' could easily have just been a viable cover story in case someone saw them since he knew of the wedding, or to play at that Inn to get access to her. People love to suspect that he always planned to go to Winterfell, but he might not have planned that at all. I saw a theory once about how one of Jons creepy dreams was symbolism for Ned's remains being at Maidenpool. (since in the dream he took a 'not so maiden' in a pool while Ned watched, then she turned to a skeleton) If so, taking a ship to Whiteharbor does seem logical.

Tagganaro · June 13, 2018

19 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Do you mean did the raven outlive Mormont's predecessor, LC Qorgyle? Coz the raven definitely outlived Mormont, we can safely cross that one off the list.

Yes that's what I meant. I wonder how long the raven has been around and whether he was with Qorgyle and at the Wall the whole time, or whether Mormont found him somewhere and brought him to the Wall.

The rest of my quotes were pretty jokey but I still do wonder about him eating Mormont's face- it seems like such a graphic description and just sticks out to me.

6 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

This for me always raises the question of what Jojen told Bran about dreaming of the chained winged wolf and identifying him as Bran and if he's wrong in what he thinks.

Bran opens his third eye on his own. The crypt at Winterfell is exactly like Bloodraven's cave. Bran himself says that Winterfell from above looks like a giant weirwood and that its roots run deep. The roots of Winterfell the weirwood would the crypts.

So if Bran managed to open his third eye because of the environment he was in and reached across the Wall to Ghost and helped Jon open himself up to his own abilities, doesn't that make Jon this chained winged wolf?

I've always wondered about that chained winged wolf thing too- seems like it must refer to Bran but maybe it could refer to Jon as well. Thinking symbolically and visually, you think of the Starks as the wolf side of that and then you could go Bran-3 eyed crow-Bloodraven as the winged portion. You could also go Jon Targaryean as the winged portion for Jon. Heck you could even go wild and connect Sansa to the falcon of the Arryns and say she's the winged wolf. But I still lean towards Bran since all the imagery of the 3 EC and the "you can't walk but you can fly" stuff.

4 hours ago, Azarial said:

Do you remember if the crow freed him before or after this point? I get mixed up in the timeline with Bran as so many of his scenes are similar.

I think he was freed before this but don't quite recall.

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I thought eating him would give the bird his knowledge. Similar to being absorbed by the weirnet since the trees abilities seem linked to blood.

The men seemed to link the Raven to command, but we're never told why. I wondered if it wasn't Bloodravens Raven, and is still alive because he is. Same as how the Stark's and their wolves seem to share a life. But that's just a guess based off of it seeming like Bloodraven skin changes it, a lot.

Yeah, I mean that's what I find so interesting- like it just seems like the raven goes from Mormont to Jon without a second thought, either by the raven or by Jon. Which does make me think the raven is linked to command.

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That reminds me of where he tells Sam he wasted his life on the wall (not in those words) made me wonder if his going to the wall didn't have something to do with succession and the prophecy, not just the succession of Egg. And that is why he was so willing to buy into it being Stannis at first.

Aemon? Doesn't Aemon sort of call Stannis/Mel out right away for their bullshit when he has Sam describe "Lightbringer" and then basically dismisses it?

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Just the way it's told doesn't seem believable. Who goes to the Redkeep and yells for the Prince to come out and die? And GRRM has shown us how the tales told are seldom the truth. The going at all is impulsive, the rest just doesn't seem right, even Jinglebell would know better than to do that. So I won't believe this version until we see a flashback from someone who was there. Jamie saw the aftermath, but his recollection of how it started seems to be second hand, as there was zero detail.

Yeah I agree it seems impossibly stupid, but it seems like a pretty common description of Brandon as a hothead who reacts very impulsively. Who knows? We can only wait to see if we ever get clarification on that.

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But if its Jon's link to the crypts that is the factor, then the connection would be from Jon not Bran as Jon always dreams of the crypts or of Ghost. Bran was trying to warg summer, but nothing else. Jon remembers the 'dream' in detail, and Bran isn't sure it even happened. This makes Jon's experience/connection at this moment seem stronger no?

Well Jon hasn't done this kind of thing yet- I believe it may be Jon's first "wolf dream" and the whole thing is about opening Jon's 3rd eye, just as Bran had his 3rd eye opened by the 3EC Jon is having his opened by Bran. It would make sense Jon would remember it more since not only is it his first time, but it's happening to him. Bran remembers it vividly, he's just not sure whether it actually happened or it was a dream. Jon is similar in that respect but he has more of a connection to Ghost who got attacked and injured so it would make sense Jon would have more knowledge and more connection.

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Hard to say, especially Shaggydog, but we have seen things with Ghost and those are the two with Red and Green eyes. Ghost did mentally call out to Jon in book one, and they are the first to have established the warging bond. Jon is also the first one we see be able to connect with the wolf while still being fully aware of his own surroundings, and not sleeping.

Is this true? I mean I don't recall, but I don't recall Jon really having any sort of connection with Ghost prior to this Bran incident, while Bran has been consistently wolf-dreaming since the beginning of AGOT. Ghost maybe "mentally" called out to Jon in Book one but I consider that more the magic of the moment (kind of like a one-time thing with Dany/birth of dragons) than Jon being a stronger warg or having a better connection with his wolf.

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Bran's body always goes to sleep and he looses himself in being a wolf. Ghost also is the only one aware of where all his litter-mates are. Jon could see that Mel was using the love/lust powder just from touching Ghost (not that he knew why she appeared as Ygritte, but still he wasn't supposed to notice anything off as she was trying to win his trust through Ghost by tricking Ghost into thinking she as Jon.) He knew when Ghost came back by sensing his hunger. Ghost found the wights, ghost found the dragon glass and horn at the fist. Ghost wouldn't even enter the ring fort at the fist until he came to lead Jon away. So I'd say Ghost is special. And I'd also say that Jon and Ghosts bond is the strongest, except for maybe Shaggydog, but I suspect the wolf is in control there.

Is Bran always asleep? I think he definitely wargs Summer while still awake. That's like when he has the convo with Jojen about marking a tree, etc. to give Bran more control. I think the Ghost stuff is more about the magic beyond the Wall than any special ability on his part. All the direwolves can sense danger, and I also think the 3EC/Bloodraven his helping Jon out too through Ghost. I think it's more likely the 3EC warged Ghost or somehow led him to that cache. Long story short I think Bloodraven is obviously very involved in the fight against the Others and that's what Jon is closest too along with Bran.

I think all their connections are the same, and in terms of distance and time apart, I'd say Arya is most impressive since she's wolf-dreaming across the narrow sea. I don't think Shaggydog is in control, I think he's responding to Rickon's extreme anger and emotional state just as when Jon becomes angry, so does Ghost, etc.

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Was he far ahead though? He needed to be shown how to warg. Jon just does it naturally. And like I said above he seems in better control of it, as he can do it awake even if he doesn't understand it. Bran has to force his whole mind into summer, and loses all sense of time, and even the fact that he's a human and separate from Summer. Jon only fully merges with Ghost when he's asleep, and I don't think this will change, as he doesn't need to loose himself in order to connect.

Arya and Jon, and perhaps Robb but we don't have his POV, all do it naturally. I don't see how you could say Jon is in better control, there's no way Jon could mark a tree, etc. and try and do some of the stuff Bran is trying to do. I'd say Jon and Bran are pretty similar in that they lose themselves, like when Jon starts feeling hunger when Ghost returns to the Wall and doesn't realize it's him at first. Jon for the most part doesn't even seem to realize what's happening when he's warging Ghost, whereas Bran is doing it consciously. But that makes sense to me since Bran is being trained by the 3EC whereas Jon doesn't really have any training, just like Arya.

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And the hooded man sneaking in to return Ned's remains does fit best with the foreshadowing we've been given. My guess is he came in with the Manderly's and has been the one trying to get the crypts uncovered so that the remains can be placed there. Coming with Manderly would have put him in contact with Mance and the washerwomen as well, and would explain why they are so obsessed with being shown the crypts, not because they didn't know where they were, but because they needed a good reason for someone to uncover the access. And would link up with them being pro Stark, as was mentioned earlier in this thread. If Mance realized Arya was a fake, but found out about the remains he may have seen this as a new way to earn Jon's trust. His original 'ploy' could easily have just been a viable cover story in case someone saw them since he knew of the wedding, or to play at that Inn to get access to her. People love to suspect that he always planned to go to Winterfell, but he might not have planned that at all. I saw a theory once about how one of Jons creepy dreams was symbolism for Ned's remains being at Maidenpool. (since in the dream he took a 'not so maiden' in a pool while Ned watched, then she turned to a skeleton) If so, taking a ship to Whiteharbor does seem logical.

The Mance stuff is so interesting to me not only because he's one of my favorite characters, but there's just so much unanswered. Mance mentions the "other ploy" and it seems like the washerwomen are definitely needed for it, and it doesn't seem like Mance ever even bothered to go to Longlake. Could Mance have been intercepted before Longlake somehow and found out that "Arya" was still at Winterfell and headed straight there? Or was he just always planning on going there? It seems like he was based on his "other ploy" remark but it's unclear.

Obviously the Bael the Bard stuff is replaying itself out for Mance- Bael originally hid in the crypts with the blue winter rose to escape the Stark in Winterfell- perhaps "Abel" is just looking to do the same with the Boltons. And I also wonder whether the end of Bael's story is predictive...if you recall Bael's son became the Stark in Winterfell, killed Bael in the future, and then was skinned by a Bolton. Is Mance gonna be skinned by Ramsay like the PL says?

Azarial · June 13, 2018

1 hour ago, Tagganaro said:

Yes that's what I meant. I wonder how long the raven has been around and whether he was with Qorgyle and at the Wall the whole time, or whether Mormont found him somewhere and brought him to the Wall.

The rest of my quotes were pretty jokey but I still do wonder about him eating Mormont's face- it seems like such a graphic description and just sticks out to me.

I've always wondered about that chained winged wolf thing too- seems like it must refer to Bran but maybe it could refer to Jon as well. Thinking symbolically and visually, you think of the Starks as the wolf side of that and then you could go Bran-3 eyed crow-Bloodraven as the winged portion. You could also go Jon Targaryean as the winged portion for Jon. Heck you could even go wild and connect Sansa to the falcon of the Arryns and say she's the winged wolf. But I still lean towards Bran since all the imagery of the 3 EC and the "you can't walk but you can fly" stuff.

I think he was freed before this but don't quite recall.

Yeah, I mean that's what I find so interesting- like it just seems like the raven goes from Mormont to Jon without a second thought, either by the raven or by Jon. Which does make me think the raven is linked to command.

Aemon? Doesn't Aemon sort of call Stannis/Mel out right away for their bullshit when he has Sam describe "Lightbringer" and then basically dismisses it?

He tells Sam he let himself believe. Yes, he noticed the sword was wrong but he tells Sam he let himself wonder if it was true.

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Yeah I agree it seems impossibly stupid, but it seems like a pretty common description of Brandon as a hothead who reacts very impulsively. Who knows? We can only wait to see if we ever get clarification on that.

And it could be that wolf blood is hot headed. I just haven't seen any signs of it being linked to super strength or blacking out. And the cold references outweigh the rest in general, and everyone has a temper some times. So it would have to have something 'extra' for me to link it. But I don't rule it out.

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Well Jon hasn't done this kind of thing yet- I believe it may be Jon's first "wolf dream" and the whole thing is about opening Jon's 3rd eye, just as Bran had his 3rd eye opened by the 3EC Jon is having his opened by Bran. It would make sense Jon would remember it more since not only is it his first time, but it's happening to him. Bran remembers it vividly, he's just not sure whether it actually happened or it was a dream. Jon is similar in that respect but he has more of a connection to Ghost who got attacked and injured so it would make sense Jon would have more knowledge and more connection.

I still need to re-read this chapter from Jon's POV to see the order of eating the stuff Qorin made him eat, and seeing the golden eyes watching, and the dream. I think there is a possibility that it's through Jon, but triggered by these other parties. But, I'm not there on my re-read yet.

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Is this true? I mean I don't recall, but I don't recall Jon really having any sort of connection with Ghost prior to this Bran incident, while Bran has been consistently wolf-dreaming since the beginning of AGOT. Ghost maybe "mentally" called out to Jon in Book one but I consider that more the magic of the moment (kind of like a one-time thing with Dany/birth of dragons) than Jon being a stronger warg or having a better connection with his wolf.

Well, he notes that he feels naked when Ghost isn't with him before the wight attack. And he does seem to sense his presence. It's subtle, but it's there. Jon isn't really one to think of these things, like the crypt dreams we hear they are recurring but only see 3 mentions in 5 books as far as I recall. But there are times he'll think something seems off, or smells off and Ghost sensed it too. I think it is just so natural that he only notices it's absence.

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Is Bran always asleep? I think he definitely wargs Summer while still awake. That's like when he has the convo with Jojen about marking a tree, etc. to give Bran more control. I think the Ghost stuff is more about the magic beyond the Wall than any special ability on his part. All the direwolves can sense danger, and I also think the 3EC/Bloodraven his helping Jon out too through Ghost. I think it's more likely the 3EC warged Ghost or somehow led him to that cache. Long story short I think Bloodraven is obviously very involved in the fight against the Others and that's what Jon is closest too along with Bran.

Yep, he's out. Jojen has him connect with Summer to try and get him to mark the tree and he always fails as he gets lost in being a wolf. Then they chastise him for being out for days, and have to keep reminding him that he needs to wake up to eat etc. Then at the cave mouth when in Hodor, he sees Summer fighting and it takes him a bit to realize that Summer is guarding his seemingly lifeless body.

And yes, I do see Bloodraven, or coldhands being a factor in the stash. But, since we don't know for sure I figured it was worth considering.

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I think all their connections are the same, and in terms of distance and time apart, I'd say Arya is most impressive since she's wolf-dreaming across the narrow sea. I don't think Shaggydog is in control, I think he's responding to Rickon's extreme anger and emotional state just as when Jon becomes angry, so does Ghost, etc.

She skin changes a cat while awake too. But, I don't think distance matters a bit with the wolves, as they are bonded. Rickon is tough because we have no POV and he's so young. But, that is why I worry about him going wolf, as he is young and the wolf minds are powerful, as we've seen with Bran in particular and Bran has been warned not to stay to long, but who will warn Rickon?

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Arya and Jon, and perhaps Robb but we don't have his POV, all do it naturally. I don't see how you could say Jon is in better control, there's no way Jon could mark a tree, etc. and try and do some of the stuff Bran is trying to do. I'd say Jon and Bran are pretty similar in that they lose themselves, like when Jon starts feeling hunger when Ghost returns to the Wall and doesn't realize it's him at first. Jon for the most part doesn't even seem to realize what's happening when he's warging Ghost, whereas Bran is doing it consciously. But that makes sense to me since Bran is being trained by the 3EC whereas Jon doesn't really have any training, just like Arya.

But, Bran is always out. The wolf will respond to his emotions like in the Gods wood, but Bran isn't sensing anything. I also suspect this is the difference between a skin changer and a Green Seer. The whole mind entering as apposed to a gentle sharing of information for lack of a better way to put it. The closest we see to him staying awake is Hodor during the storm, but it was so fast I think Bran just got bucked out. When Jon feels the hunger it only takes a second for him to know what happened. He's fully awake. So if Green Seer's send their full mind, but normal skin changers don't, at least not unless they're asleep but even then Jon can be woken and doesn't think he is Ghost, or try to control him. Bran can't be woken as his mind is in Summer (I think this is flying, his mind flies to a different body) what does that impact?

Bran didn't send his full mind into Jon. But, that is how his ability appears to work. So yeah, I worded it badly. It's not more or less in control of what they are connecting to and it's not power over their abilities even. It's in control of themselves, and able to separate the two, that's what I was failing to explain. A connection initiated by Bran would be invasive. A connection initiated by Jon would be gentle, as Ghost is shown to always be connected to the other wolves, he knows that Lady is gone, he knows where Nymeria is and who she's with, he knows that Shaggydog is eating a goat. This is all Jon through Ghost, he does this all the time, it's just so natural it's easy to miss. So the gentle feeling of the connection, how natural it is, and the fact that Ghost is always linked up still have me thinking it's Jon. Hodor cowers when Bran reaches for him, when he reaches out to Summer he becomes Summer, he's not sensing things through Summer while still aware. You see what I mean? If he reached out to Jon, he would be invading Jon's mind. Jon would freak out. I think Jon did his normal checking in that we've seen him do, and Bran happened to be in Summer at the time. Did I make sense this time? The issue is me not explaining it well, so sorry for that.

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The Mance stuff is so interesting to me not only because he's one of my favorite characters, but there's just so much unanswered. Mance mentions the "other ploy" and it seems like the washerwomen are definitely needed for it, and it doesn't seem like Mance ever even bothered to go to Longlake. Could Mance have been intercepted before Longlake somehow and found out that "Arya" was still at Winterfell and headed straight there? Or was he just always planning on going there? It seems like he was based on his "other ploy" remark but it's unclear.

But, the wedding was moved after he left. The original location was near or at Barrowton. So if they were a ploy it could have been to go there first to try and earn her trust. Or use the women (who are likely northerners that were stolen, or at least some of them) to earn the trust of some of the Lords, and get their help. He may not have planned to go to Winterfell in that case. Maybe, that was Manderly's idea for example. Mance betrays Jon and goes to Winterfell of his own accord, or to help Stannis, just seems to clean and obvious. The 'this is what the author wants me to think so I'll be shocked when it turns out to really be ____' Is how the Mance had a ploy to go to Winterfell from the start idea seems to me. :dunno:

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Obviously the Bael the Bard stuff is replaying itself out for Mance- Bael originally hid in the crypts with the blue winter rose to escape the Stark in Winterfell- perhaps "Abel" is just looking to do the same with the Boltons. And I also wonder whether the end of Bael's story is predictive...if you recall Bael's son became the Stark in Winterfell, killed Bael in the future, and then was skinned by a Bolton. Is Mance gonna be skinned by Ramsay like the PL says?

I really, really, want the twist to be that Mance fed Ramsey to his dogs, then skinned the dogs. (There are hints to this being possible in the pink letter when you consider the dogs being named after the women that Ramsey killed, then violated their corpses.) We're given all these statements about him being an oath-breaker, but then are shown through Jon that seeming like one and being one aren't the same. Then we are told that he needed to fly free. Well, how do we know that doesn't mean he was set free, to earn the trust of the Free Folk as part of the guard the realms of men bit? And he had to turn cloak to do that. His story of why he turned cloak is almost as pathetic as Jon's after all. Especially when you consider he left the wall with a group who argued over who would be the King. Umm that's odd to say the least. His, protection and trust of Jon are suspicious as well, Tormund too, and he was part of the original group that left the wall in the story he told. His wanting to earn Jons trust once he becomes Lord commander, also odd. We know the man who gave Jon that order died. So what if Qorgyle gave Mance a similar order, but then he died and Mance was stuck?

Osha seems to believe he's not a true Wildling, so does that mean he's really a crow? We know he visited Winterfell and was allowed to go everywhere and even play with the Stark children according to Jon. So maybe, he respects them.

Tagganaro · June 14, 2018

19 hours ago, Azarial said:

I still need to re-read this chapter from Jon's POV to see the order of eating the stuff Qorin made him eat, and seeing the golden eyes watching, and the dream. I think there is a possibility that it's through Jon, but triggered by these other parties. But, I'm not there on my re-read yet.

I'll get to this a little later below.

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Yep, he's out. Jojen has him connect with Summer to try and get him to mark the tree and he always fails as he gets lost in being a wolf. Then they chastise him for being out for days, and have to keep reminding him that he needs to wake up to eat etc. Then at the cave mouth when in Hodor, he sees Summer fighting and it takes him a bit to realize that Summer is guarding his seemingly lifeless body.

He's out that time in the crypts when he reaches Jon I think. That's the 3 days line. But here's what Bran thinks shortly thereafter- "Here in the chill damp darkness of the tomb his third eye had finally opened. He could reach Summer whenever he wanted, and once he even touched Ghost and talked to Jon." This obviously suggest Bran has a lot of control over when he reaches Summer and that he was responsible for reaching Ghost as well.

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She skin changes a cat while awake too. But, I don't think distance matters a bit with the wolves, as they are bonded. Rickon is tough because we have no POV and he's so young. But, that is why I worry about him going wolf, as he is young and the wolf minds are powerful, as we've seen with Bran in particular and Bran has been warned not to stay to long, but who will warn Rickon?

Well, the distance thing I only think about because Jon couldn't sense Ghost if I'm remembering correctly when Ghost was north of the Wall and Jon was behind it. But I guess that's the magic of the Wall and the warding more than anything- it's like the wights can't cross unless they are brought through before being animated I guess.

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But, Bran is always out. The wolf will respond to his emotions like in the Gods wood, but Bran isn't sensing anything. I also suspect this is the difference between a skin changer and a Green Seer. The whole mind entering as apposed to a gentle sharing of information for lack of a better way to put it. The closest we see to him staying awake is Hodor during the storm, but it was so fast I think Bran just got bucked out. When Jon feels the hunger it only takes a second for him to know what happened. He's fully awake. So if Green Seer's send their full mind, but normal skin changers don't, at least not unless they're asleep but even then Jon can be woken and doesn't think he is Ghost, or try to control him. Bran can't be woken as his mind is in Summer (I think this is flying, his mind flies to a different body) what does that impact?

Maybe but I don't think Bran is always "out", or at least I don't think he always needs to be out. After Jojen chides him for not marking the tree in Bran I in ASOS Bran replies that "I could go back and do it now, if you like." I'm not sure that Bran is "out" when that chapter begins with Summer- Jojen says "you were gone too long" but its unclear how long. It could just be in the context of an hour or something or it could mean days like the 3 days in the crypt.

And Bran is woken while his mind is in Summer, Hodor wakes him up when he starts hearing Hodor hodor.

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Bran didn't send his full mind into Jon. But, that is how his ability appears to work. So yeah, I worded it badly. It's not more or less in control of what they are connecting to and it's not power over their abilities even. It's in control of themselves, and able to separate the two, that's what I was failing to explain. A connection initiated by Bran would be invasive. A connection initiated by Jon would be gentle, as Ghost is shown to always be connected to the other wolves, he knows that Lady is gone, he knows where Nymeria is and who she's with, he knows that Shaggydog is eating a goat. This is all Jon through Ghost, he does this all the time, it's just so natural it's easy to miss. So the gentle feeling of the connection, how natural it is, and the fact that Ghost is always linked up still have me thinking it's Jon. Hodor cowers when Bran reaches for him, when he reaches out to Summer he becomes Summer, he's not sensing things through Summer while still aware. You see what I mean? If he reached out to Jon, he would be invading Jon's mind. Jon would freak out. I think Jon did his normal checking in that we've seen him do, and Bran happened to be in Summer at the time. Did I make sense this time? The issue is me not explaining it well, so sorry for that.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one, but I just don't see it this way. I don't think the issue is how you're explaining it, you explain it quite well and I enjoy reading your perspective :cheers: . Here is the sequence of events: 1) I don't think Jon eats the stuff even in that chapter. I think that's the chapter before. 2) Ghost is acting kind of strangely while Jon is still awake. His ears prick up and then Jon tries to get Ghost to cuddle with him for warmth when he sleeps but Ghost just turns away and Jon thinks he wants to hunt. This is how the connection plays out to Ghost:

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Jon? The call came from behind him, softer than a whisper, but strong too...he turned his head searching for his brother...but there was nothing, only a weirwood. It seemed to sprout from solid rock...yet it was growing as he watched. Red eyes looked...the weirwood had his brother's face. Had his brother always had three eyes?

Bran: But first you have to open your eyes. See? Like this. And the tree reached down and touched him.

Again, this just really seems to me like Bran is doing all the initiating here.

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But, the wedding was moved after he left. The original location was near or at Barrowton. So if they were a ploy it could have been to go there first to try and earn her trust. Or use the women (who are likely northerners that were stolen, or at least some of them) to earn the trust of some of the Lords, and get their help. He may not have planned to go to Winterfell in that case. Maybe, that was Manderly's idea for example. Mance betrays Jon and goes to Winterfell of his own accord, or to help Stannis, just seems to clean and obvious. The 'this is what the author wants me to think so I'll be shocked when it turns out to really be ____' Is how the Mance had a ploy to go to Winterfell from the start idea seems to me.

Good point about Barrowton. I'm still just confused about where the spearwives stand relative to Mance's ploy...because he does say the spearwives will also help him win "Arya's" trust, but he also mentions that "other ploy." Knowing Mance and his love for Bael, I feel like it would make more sense for him to always be planning on going to Winterfell, but if the wedding was at Barrowtown as Mance was leaving why would Mance need spearwives to go to what he thinks is probably a deserted Winterfell? Hmmm...so many questions here.

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I really, really, want the twist to be that Mance fed Ramsey to his dogs, then skinned the dogs. (There are hints to this being possible in the pink letter when you consider the dogs being named after the women that Ramsey killed, then violated their corpses.) We're given all these statements about him being an oath-breaker, but then are shown through Jon that seeming like one and being one aren't the same. Then we are told that he needed to fly free. Well, how do we know that doesn't mean he was set free, to earn the trust of the Free Folk as part of the guard the realms of men bit? And he had to turn cloak to do that. His story of why he turned cloak is almost as pathetic as Jon's after all. Especially when you consider he left the wall with a group who argued over who would be the King. Umm that's odd to say the least. His, protection and trust of Jon are suspicious as well, Tormund too, and he was part of the original group that left the wall in the story he told. His wanting to earn Jons trust once he becomes Lord commander, also odd. We know the man who gave Jon that order died. So what if Qorgyle gave Mance a similar order, but then he died and Mance was stuck?

Well, I agree Mance's story of why he turned seems a little pathetic, but I also think like everything with Mance, he is about personal freedom or liberty or whatever you want to call it. Qhorin says he was born a wildling and was just returning home when he left the Wall, the wildlings are all about doing what they want, when they want, and they lack the ability or desire to be disciplined and obedient. I think from a symbolic perspective, Mance's story makes a lot of sense especially when you consider it in light of GRRM deciding to introduce Mance by having him sing "The Dornishman's wife", a song which is all about freedom and personal liberty.

I've always been curious about the wildlings and their connections to the Starks, it certainly seems like Mance/Ygritte really believe in Bael the Bard and believe they are kin with the Starks. There seems to be a lot of wildlings that have a sort of reverence for the Starks- like Jon is quick to throw around "I'm a son of Eddard Stark" when he's trying to win the wildlings over from Stannis and at the weirwood grove, and it seems to work pretty well. Of course conversely there are true wildling raiders who don't give a fig about the Starks like Rattleshirt, Harma, the Weeper, etc. but those guys just seem to be monsters who dislike everyone anyway.

I don't really see Mance trusting or protecting Jon too much...he lets Orell's eagle savage his face when he lies to him, he seems to be on the verge of killing Jon until Ygritte lies about sleeping with him, and then he sends him off with the Magnar of Thenn and allows him to kill Jon at the first sight of disloyalty, etc. Mance just knows Jon's value in terms of what Jon knows about the Wall, etc. and sees how he could be used to help bring along the fall of the Wall.

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