Meanwhile back at the Wall

[Azarial]

2 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

I'll get to this a little later below.

He's out that time in the crypts when he reaches Jon I think.  That's the 3 days line.  But here's what Bran thinks shortly thereafter- "Here in the chill damp darkness of the tomb his third eye had finally opened.  He could reach Summer whenever he wanted, and once he even touched Ghost and talked to Jon."  This obviously suggest Bran has a lot of control over when he reaches Summer and that he was responsible for reaching Ghost as well.

Well, the distance thing I only think about because Jon couldn't sense Ghost if I'm remembering correctly when Ghost was north of the Wall and Jon was behind it.  But I guess that's the magic of the Wall and the warding more than anything- it's like the wights can't cross unless they are brought through before being animated I guess.

I haven't read the first three books in about 1 1/2 years as I was going through the last two, since they hadn't been picked over as much by other people. So I admit I'm fuzzy on the early details. But, you reminded me of a few things, and I am wondering about something a bit different. Bran and Jon can talk, but we haven't seen either of them do this with the other Starks. We've seen Bran maybe talk through a tree, but never mind to mind. Jon can sense the other wolves, but not the Starks. So what if both of them have a slightly unique ability to the rest and that is what allowed them to connect to each other, but not the rest? Could also be timing as we don't see them do it again either. The other thing we know, that you mentioned is that skin changer magic is blocked by the wall, but we know from Bloodraven that green seer magic isn't, likely from the roots running beneath the wall, through the ground. So maybe Jon was asleep, so in ghost and because of his special ability his mind is more receptive, and he was reaching out as he couldn't sense anyone making his mind very open. Bran can get his mind past the wall, and when he sensed Jon in Ghost he reached out, but not in the same way he does when he takes over Hodor, as he would be in the weirnet, and that may be why Jon saw him as a tree and not a wolf? Then he touches Jon and we see Jon's mind fly free for a bit when he goes from their right to looking at the Wildling encampment. And this mind flying free I've always felt was triggered by Bran. The part that messed me up is Jon talks to him then thinks of Bran touching him, and Bran thinks of it in reverse.

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Maybe but I don't think Bran is always "out", or at least I don't think he always needs to be out.  After Jojen chides him for not marking the tree in Bran I in ASOS Bran replies that "I could go back and do it now, if you like."  I'm not sure that Bran is "out" when that chapter begins with Summer- Jojen says "you were gone too long" but its unclear how long.  It could just be in the context of an hour or something or it could mean days like the 3 days in the crypt.  

And Bran is woken while his mind is in Summer, Hodor wakes him up when he starts hearing Hodor hodor.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one, but I just don't see it this way.  I don't think the issue is how you're explaining it, you explain it quite well and I enjoy reading your perspective .  Here is the sequence of events:  1) I don't think Jon eats the stuff even in that chapter.  I think that's the chapter before.  2)  Ghost is acting kind of strangely while Jon is still awake.  His ears prick up and then Jon tries to get Ghost to cuddle with him for warmth when he sleeps but Ghost just turns away and Jon thinks he wants to hunt.  This is how the connection plays out to Ghost:

Again, this just really seems to me like Bran is doing all the initiating here.

No, I did explain it badly. I made it sound like Brans abilities were weak lol and that was never my intention. Where was Summer when he woke up hearing Hodor? And did he hear it in Summer, or started to wake then heard it, or is it to hard to know for sure? I know with Jon, the ravens words are in his dream. I don't remember seeing this with Bran, but that could just be my memory. I interpreted the fact that he could reach Summer whenever he wanted to mean, he didn't have to be asleep to initiate contact anymore, he could just reach out and his body would then appear asleep as his mind had left, and enter Summer with ease, but that he was still out. He also thought about connecting to Hodor being easier, but we see first hand that his body becomes lifeless. I just figured since Brans connection was full mind, where Jon shared senses, and things only that his connection was easier to make. It could be that Bran opened his third eye to far and that caused him to go to deep, and he is now learning to not send his full mind. I could see an argument for that. 

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Good point about Barrowton.  I'm still just confused about where the spearwives stand relative to Mance's ploy...because he does say the spearwives will also help him win "Arya's" trust, but he also mentions that "other ploy."  Knowing Mance and his love for Bael, I feel like it would make more sense for him to always be planning on going to Winterfell, but if the wedding was at Barrowtown as Mance was leaving why would Mance need spearwives to go to what he thinks is probably a deserted Winterfell?  Hmmm...so many questions here.  

I know, and I can't make my mind up on what I think he's doing. If they are Northern Lords daughters that would help earn her trust in theory. Plus, if you're a young girl in the wilderness and some strange man tries to grab you that won't go well. But, a group of woman and a singer seem much less threatening (even if this particular group is more dangerous as a group lol). So I can see him being honest about that. If they went to long lake, and didn't see anyone (say they missed Alys, by a few days) then knowing the location of the Wedding decided to just keep heading that direction. It could happen. He could also be up to something crazy. But he went to the original wedding location, then went with Manderly to Winterfell. So this is where I go hmm... If the plan was Winterfell from the start, why go to Barrowton as it's farther south than Winterfell, why not go right there and poke around while it was empty. So, yeah, for that reason alone I don't think Winterfell was the original plan, or part of the ploy. The wedding was moved last minute to try and force Stannis into a trap, so there was no way for Mance to plan for that.

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Well, I agree Mance's story of why he turned seems a little pathetic, but I also think like everything with Mance, he is about personal freedom or liberty or whatever you want to call it.  Qhorin says he was born a wildling and was just returning home when he left the Wall, the wildlings are all about doing what they want, when they want, and they lack the ability or desire to be disciplined and obedient.  I think from a symbolic perspective, Mance's story makes a lot of sense especially when you consider it in light of GRRM deciding to introduce Mance by having him sing "The Dornishman's wife", a song which is all about freedom and personal liberty.  

I never got the meaning of that song, so maybe that's why I didn't think of it that way. Then again I see Mance as disciplined and he seems to value obedience in those around him. He couldn't get that many people to follow him otherwise. But, maybe he likes the structure, but not the restrictions? I also find it odd how he told this story about the cloak, and the first thing he does is tell Jon what type of cloak to wear, or at least to get a new one.

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I've always been curious about the wildlings and their connections to the Starks, it certainly seems like Mance/Ygritte really believe in Bael the Bard and believe they are kin with the Starks.  There seems to be a lot of wildlings that have a sort of reverence for the Starks- like Jon is quick to throw around "I'm a son of Eddard Stark" when he's trying to win the wildlings over from Stannis and at the weirwood grove, and it seems to work pretty well.  Of course conversely there are true wildling raiders who don't give a fig about the Starks like Rattleshirt, Harma, the Weeper, etc. but those guys just seem to be monsters who dislike everyone anyway.

Yeah, there is a bit of both to be sure. But, given all their kneeler comments, and you earn your place, who your father was doesn't matter. There should be almost no one who cares about the Stark name. They also do make note of who descended from past kings beyond the wall. So there is something we're missing, or that they aren't being honest about.

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I don't really see Mance trusting or protecting Jon too much...he lets Orell's eagle savage his face when he lies to him, he seems to be on the verge of killing Jon until Ygritte lies about sleeping with him, and then he sends him off with the Magnar of Thenn and allows him to kill Jon at the first sight of disloyalty, etc.  Mance just knows Jon's value in terms of what Jon knows about the Wall, etc. and sees how he could be used to help bring along the fall of the Wall.

 

He doesn't overtly protect him, but he accepted him pretty easily. Then put him with Tormund, who he knew liked him and would look out for him. I don't think he anticipated Orell's eagle attacking him, Varamyr said in the prologue that Orell had an intense hatred of Jon, that even started to taint how he felt about him. I also don't think he anticipated there being any people in the gift, as it's normally deserted, and Moles town is under ground, and they attacked at night. So his threats weren't all that serious in context. And if he made it to castle black with them he'd be seen as a deserter and would have to fight with them or risk turning on them at the lats minute, but the castle would be unprepared and under manned so the risk was minimal as him turning at that point would be suicide.

He was mad about the fist and threatened to take his eye, but didn't. If any other nights watch guy had turned cloak and been caught in a lie that big I don't see them walking away with nothing but a couple scratches and a stern talking to, no matter how many women they were bedding. Jon believed they were walking into a trap and never told anyone, and Mance did nothing other then send him over the wall with Jarl and the Magnar, and given that his lie would have gotten many free folk killed if it weren't for the Other attack, that was the safest place for him and both Jarl and Magnar were with Mance before Jon arrived, so the threat could have been for show, we have no idea what they discussed before Jon arrived. So, he didn't baby him, but... Now, it could be that he hoped seeing all the corpses from the horses and the fact that the host was gone would be enough to get Jon to fully join them, so let him off easy? And maybe he was nice in the beginning because he wanted to give him a fair shot? It's possible, I can see that. Maybe, he kept him alive just because he didn't want to try and go south after killing a member of house Stark, or wanted a member of house Stark as a hostage. I can see that too, although as a hostage he would have been better kept close, especially after the fist. 

Everything about Mance is a bit of a mystery.

[Clegane'sPup]

On 6/13/2018 at 5:00 PM, Azarial said:

I still need to re-read this chapter from Jon's POV to see the order of eating the stuff Qorin made him eat, and seeing the golden eyes watching, and the dream. I think there is a possibility that it's through Jon, but triggered by these other parties. But, I'm not there on my re-read yet.

Anything new to share after your re-reading?

[Azarial]

3 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Anything new to share after your re-reading?

I haven't gotten there yet. But I will let you guys know of anything I notice that might be relevant. I haven't even read the last few days though, darn mandatory school meetings and concerts eating up my free time, but it's the weekend so I'll have some time now

[bemused]

@Clegane'sPup.. I have given a lot of thought to Jon's first wolf dream, and I've reached some conclusions ... but it's complicated, and likely to be long. Would you prefer that I start a new thread as sort of an off-shoot, since that's not all that's being discussed here?

and @Azarial, @Tagganaro, I happened across this quote from Jon VIII, ACoK... 

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They were scaling a low ridge between two snowcapped peaks when a shadowcat came snarling from its lair, not ten yards away. The beast was gaunt and half-starved, but the sight of it sent Stonesnake's mare into a panic; she reared and ran, and before the ranger could get her back under control she had stumbled on the steep slope and broken a leg.

Ghost ate well that day, and Qhorin insisted that the rangers mix some of the garron's blood with their oats, to give them strength. The taste of that foul porridge almost choked Jon, but he forced it down. They each cut a dozen strips of raw stringy meat from the carcass to chew on as they rode, and left the rest for the shadowcats.

 

This comes in Jon's next chapter after the dream, so I don't know if anyone was thinking this could be like Bran and the weirwood paste, but it's only oats and blood. This is during their trek when Orell's/Varamyr's eagle is following and watching them.

I didn't notice any mention of golden eyes here. The closest reference I could find on a quick search is in ASoS, Jon II, when the eagle attacks Jon... 

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Can a bird hate? Jon had slain the wilding Orell, but some part of the man remained within the eagle. The golden eyes looked out on him with cold malevolence. 

Hope this helps. I'm back to sorting out my breakdown of the dream(s).

[Tagganaro]

 

On 6/14/2018 at 3:31 PM, Azarial said:

I haven't read the first three books in about 1 1/2 years as I was going through the last two, since they hadn't been picked over as much by other people. So I admit I'm fuzzy on the early details. But, you reminded me of a few things, and I am wondering about something a bit different. Bran and Jon can talk, but we haven't seen either of them do this with the other Starks. We've seen Bran maybe talk through a tree, but never mind to mind. Jon can sense the other wolves, but not the Starks. So what if both of them have a slightly unique ability to the rest and that is what allowed them to connect to each other, but not the rest? Could also be timing as we don't see them do it again either. The other thing we know, that you mentioned is that skin changer magic is blocked by the wall, but we know from Bloodraven that green seer magic isn't, likely from the roots running beneath the wall, through the ground. So maybe Jon was asleep, so in ghost and because of his special ability his mind is more receptive, and he was reaching out as he couldn't sense anyone making his mind very open. Bran can get his mind past the wall, and when he sensed Jon in Ghost he reached out, but not in the same way he does when he takes over Hodor, as he would be in the weirnet, and that may be why Jon saw him as a tree and not a wolf? Then he touches Jon and we see Jon's mind fly free for a bit when he goes from their right to looking at the Wildling encampment. And this mind flying free I've always felt was triggered by Bran. The part that messed me up is Jon talks to him then thinks of Bran touching him, and Bran thinks of it in reverse.

Yeah it continues to be a bit of a mystery how and why Jon and Bran were able to connect like that...it could be any of the things you or I have mentioned.  Or maybe it's simply Bloodraven/3EC helping out, or maybe it's just because Jon and Bran are the two most advanced and powerful wargs of the Stark children and that is why Bran has been unable to connect with anyone else through their wolves.  

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No, I did explain it badly. I made it sound like Brans abilities were weak lol and that was never my intention. Where was Summer when he woke up hearing Hodor? And did he hear it in Summer, or started to wake then heard it, or is it to hard to know for sure? I know with Jon, the ravens words are in his dream. I don't remember seeing this with Bran, but that could just be my memory. I interpreted the fact that he could reach Summer whenever he wanted to mean, he didn't have to be asleep to initiate contact anymore, he could just reach out and his body would then appear asleep as his mind had left, and enter Summer with ease, but that he was still out. He also thought about connecting to Hodor being easier, but we see first hand that his body becomes lifeless. I just figured since Brans connection was full mind, where Jon shared senses, and things only that his connection was easier to make. It could be that Bran opened his third eye to far and that caused him to go to deep, and he is now learning to not send his full mind. I could see an argument for that. 

 

It is the same with Bran's dream.  In Bran I ASOS, he gets woken up by hearing Hodor as Summer and tries to ignore it until he is shaken awake by Hodor as well.

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I know, and I can't make my mind up on what I think he's doing. If they are Northern Lords daughters that would help earn her trust in theory. Plus, if you're a young girl in the wilderness and some strange man tries to grab you that won't go well. But, a group of woman and a singer seem much less threatening (even if this particular group is more dangerous as a group lol). So I can see him being honest about that. If they went to long lake, and didn't see anyone (say they missed Alys, by a few days) then knowing the location of the Wedding decided to just keep heading that direction. It could happen. He could also be up to something crazy. But he went to the original wedding location, then went with Manderly to Winterfell. So this is where I go hmm... If the plan was Winterfell from the start, why go to Barrowton as it's farther south than Winterfell, why not go right there and poke around while it was empty. So, yeah, for that reason alone I don't think Winterfell was the original plan, or part of the ploy. The wedding was moved last minute to try and force Stannis into a trap, so there was no way for Mance to plan for that.

This all makes perfect sense to me, but I'm still hung up on the "certain ploy" reference.  It seems to very clearly differentiate the "ploy" from rescuing Arya.  Perhaps we are misreading it?  But that seems unlikely.  Paraphrasing Mance, he says  he needs the spearwives because it will help him gain Arya's trust and they will help him carry off a certain ploy.  That "and" and the "certain" makes it seem like there is no other way to understand Mance's words except as to separate the ploy from rescuing Arya.  So the question becomes what was that ploy if Winterfell was in ruins and Mance never expected anyone to be there?  Does he want access to the crypts of Winterfell for an entirely different (maybe magical reason?) and why do the spearwives help him with that if he expects Winterfell to be abandoned at the time?  I think perhaps the only way to view all this is in the context of making a connection with some Lords in the North maybe, and that's why he specifically seems to pick spearwives who have a certain loyalty to the Starks and the North (and again maybe the "spearwives" aren't really spearwives?).

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He doesn't overtly protect him, but he accepted him pretty easily. Then put him with Tormund, who he knew liked him and would look out for him. I don't think he anticipated Orell's eagle attacking him, Varamyr said in the prologue that Orell had an intense hatred of Jon, that even started to taint how he felt about him. I also don't think he anticipated there being any people in the gift, as it's normally deserted, and Moles town is under ground, and they attacked at night. So his threats weren't all that serious in context. And if he made it to castle black with them he'd be seen as a deserter and would have to fight with them or risk turning on them at the lats minute, but the castle would be unprepared and under manned so the risk was minimal as him turning at that point would be suicide.

 

I don't see any kind of special protection for Jon.  I see Mance seeing an opportunity to gain inside knowledge of the Wall and use it to his advantage.  That's it.  I don't see how sending Jon off with the Magnar and Jarl who are specifically told to keep an eye on him but make use of his knowledge is protecting Jon...those guys hate Jon and want to kill him.

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He was mad about the fist and threatened to take his eye, but didn't. If any other nights watch guy had turned cloak and been caught in a lie that big I don't see them walking away with nothing but a couple scratches and a stern talking to, no matter how many women they were bedding. Jon believed they were walking into a trap and never told anyone, and Mance did nothing other then send him over the wall with Jarl and the Magnar, and given that his lie would have gotten many free folk killed if it weren't for the Other attack, that was the safest place for him and both Jarl and Magnar were with Mance before Jon arrived, so the threat could have been for show, we have no idea what they discussed before Jon arrived. So, he didn't baby him, but... Now, it could be that he hoped seeing all the corpses from the horses and the fact that the host was gone would be enough to get Jon to fully join them, so let him off easy? And maybe he was nice in the beginning because he wanted to give him a fair shot? It's possible, I can see that. Maybe, he kept him alive just because he didn't want to try and go south after killing a member of house Stark, or wanted a member of house Stark as a hostage. I can see that too, although as a hostage he would have been better kept close, especially after the fist. 

Everything about Mance is a bit of a mystery.

 

Again I think all this is as simple as Mance seeing an asset he could potentially use.  Mance gains nothing from killing Jon insofar as he thinks that Jon is unlikely to escape and harm his plans...that's why he tells Magnar and Jarl to keep a close eye on him.  And Ygritte ties Jon even more to Mance's cause and Mance is smart to see that...the one thing nobody anticipates is that Summer is lurking around and is about to create the ultimate distraction allowing Jon to escape (again maybe 3EC helping out?)

 

9 hours ago, bemused said:

@Clegane'sPup.. I have given a lot of thought to Jon's first wolf dream, and I've reached some conclusions ... but it's complicated, and likely to be long. Would you prefer that I start a new thread as sort of an off-shoot, since that's not all that's being discussed here?

and @Azarial, @Tagganaro, I happened across this quote from Jon VIII, ACoK... 

This comes in Jon's next chapter after the dream, so I don't know if anyone was thinking this could be like Bran and the weirwood paste, but it's only oats and blood. This is during their trek when Orell's/Varamyr's eagle is following and watching them.

I didn't notice any mention of golden eyes here. The closest reference I could find on a quick search is in ASoS, Jon II, when the eagle attacks Jon... 

Hope this helps. I'm back to sorting out my breakdown of the dream(s).

Yes I think me and @Azarial may have gotten sufficiently off-topic here: my apologies @Clegane'sPup if that is the case.  I would love to see you start a new thread to discuss just this @bemused.

[Clegane'sPup]

Keep on keepin' on

[Clegane'sPup]

On 6/12/2018 at 12:21 PM, Tagganaro said:

Finally I want to add that I didn't feel like going back through the thread to find your response to the Jon/Bran- Ghost/Summer thing, but I do recall that Bran afterwards in the crypts thinks that Bran himself "touched" Jon through Ghost.  I mean that's not necessarily him saying I was the active one, but it seems like it.  And when you think about what actually happened there it would make sense Bran was the impetus as he's the one "touching" Jon to get him to open up his 3rd eye more. 

Couple thoughts on the Jon & Bran shared dream.

As a reader I am taken down a road. I don't actually know what a warg or skinchanger is until it is discussed in the DwD prologue.  Sure there have been mentions throughout the books.

Jojen is the person who named Bran warg. A wildling (don't remember the name) named Jon a warg.

Bran embraces his, for lack of a better word, gift. Jon denounces his gift.

The shared dream between Jon & Ghost and Bran & Summer happens in Clash of Kings, book two.

Jon is at the Skirling Pass with Halfhand.

Bran & company are hiding in the WF crypts.

A Clash of Kings - Jon VII   When he [who he, Jon or Ghost] closed his eyes, he dreamed of direwolves.    There were five of them when there should have been six, and they were scattered, each apart from the others. He felt a deep ache of emptiness, a sense of incompleteness. The forest was vast and cold, and they were so small, so lost. His brothers were out there somewhere, and his sister, but he had lost their scent. He sat on his haunches and lifted his head to the darkening sky, and his cry echoed through the forest, a long lonely mournful sound. As it died away, he pricked up his ears, listening for an answer, but the only sound was the sigh of blowing snow.   Jon?/

Bran's PoV of the incident happens later in the book. Bran doesn't consider his gift warging, he calls it wolf dreams.

A Clash of Kings - Bran VII   Was it any wonder he would sooner dream his Summer dreams, his wolf dreams? Here in the chill damp darkness of the tomb his third eye had finally opened. He could reach Summer whenever he wanted, and once he had even touched Ghost and talked to Jon. Though maybe he had only dreamed that.

Anywho, those are the two chapters where the shared Jon & Ghost and Bran & Summer dream happens. Context is in chapter.

 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

16 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

A Clash of Kings - Jon VII   When he [who he, Jon or Ghost] closed his eyes, he dreamed of direwolves.    There were five of them when there should have been six, and they were scattered, each apart from the others. He felt a deep ache of emptiness, a sense of incompleteness. The forest was vast and cold, and they were so small, so lost. His brothers were out there somewhere, and his sister, but he had lost their scent. He sat on his haunches and lifted his head to the darkening sky, and his cry echoed through the forest, a long lonely mournful sound. As it died away, he pricked up his ears, listening for an answer, but the only sound was the sigh of blowing snow.   Jon?/

About this actually. Ghost is mute, we know as much, yet here, he lifts his head and his cry echoes through the forest, a long, lonely mournful sound.

Is this an indication that Ghost isn't so mute when Jon is inside him? This is something that I've gone back and forth on because if Jon is inside Ghost at the end of ADWD, then it's going to shock the hell out a lot of people who wouldn't expect Ghost to howl or growl to hear him do just that.

[Clegane'sPup]

13 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

About this actually. Ghost is mute, we know as much, yet here, he lifts his head and his cry echoes through the forest, a long, lonely mournful sound.

Good point.  After the dead bitch and her pups are found and the men are riding back across the bridge Jon hears a noise that no one else hears and returns to find the pup he later names Ghost.

[Tagganaro]

On 6/16/2018 at 4:55 PM, Widow's Watch said:

About this actually. Ghost is mute, we know as much, yet here, he lifts his head and his cry echoes through the forest, a long, lonely mournful sound.

Is this an indication that Ghost isn't so mute when Jon is inside him? This is something that I've gone back and forth on because if Jon is inside Ghost at the end of ADWD, then it's going to shock the hell out a lot of people who wouldn't expect Ghost to howl or growl to hear him do just that.

This is really interesting...I had never know that Ghost had howled before and I've searched this forum, etc. for people talking about this instant and have yet to find anyone even talking about this.  This is one of those things that may have gone unnoticed.

On 6/14/2018 at 3:31 PM, Azarial said:

I haven't read the first three books in about 1 1/2 years as I was going through the last two, since they hadn't been picked over as much by other people. So I admit I'm fuzzy on the early details. But, you reminded me of a few things, and I am wondering about something a bit different. Bran and Jon can talk, but we haven't seen either of them do this with the other Starks. We've seen Bran maybe talk through a tree, but never mind to mind. Jon can sense the other wolves, but not the Starks. So what if both of them have a slightly unique ability to the rest and that is what allowed them to connect to each other, but not the rest? Could also be timing as we don't see them do it again either. The other thing we know, that you mentioned is that skin changer magic is blocked by the wall, but we know from Bloodraven that green seer magic isn't, likely from the roots running beneath the wall, through the ground. So maybe Jon was asleep, so in ghost and because of his special ability his mind is more receptive, and he was reaching out as he couldn't sense anyone making his mind very open. Bran can get his mind past the wall, and when he sensed Jon in Ghost he reached out, but not in the same way he does when he takes over Hodor, as he would be in the weirnet, and that may be why Jon saw him as a tree and not a wolf? Then he touches Jon and we see Jon's mind fly free for a bit when he goes from their right to looking at the Wildling encampment. And this mind flying free I've always felt was triggered by Bran. The part that messed me up is Jon talks to him then thinks of Bran touching him, and Bran thinks of it in reverse.

Just as an FYI because I know we were talking about this, Bran/Summer does also seem to be able to sense the other direwolves.  Bran has a dream shortly after the Red Wedding, well I should say that Bran says Summer had the dream of Robb/Grey Wind's death.  I think it may just be that if you are a strong enough warg, you can sense the other wolves in wolf dreams.  

[Alexis-something-Rose]

1 hour ago, Tagganaro said:

This is really interesting...I had never know that Ghost had howled before and I've searched this forum, etc. for people talking about this instant and have yet to find anyone even talking about this.  This is one of those things that may have gone unnoticed.

This to me is reminiscent of Bran's wolf dream in Clash 46, Bran VI, when Summer tries to climb the tree to reach the roof. Bran is inside Summer and this is him controlling Summer in the dream, so Summer climbs and climbs until he essentially trips and falls. I think it might be the same thing with Ghost being warged by Jon and the howling.

In any case. There was something else I wanted to point out to, Jon's dream connection with Bran seems to be the biggest indicator that there is magic in the crypts.

[Tagganaro]

16 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

This to me is reminiscent of Bran's wolf dream in Clash 46, Bran VI, when Summer tries to climb the tree to reach the roof. Bran is inside Summer and this is him controlling Summer in the dream, so Summer climbs and climbs until he essentially trips and falls. I think it might be the same thing with Ghost being warged by Jon and the howling.

In any case. There was something else I wanted to point out to, Jon's dream connection with Bran seems to be the biggest indicator that there is magic in the crypts.

Couldn't agree more as to your 2nd point.  I've taken to calling them Chekhov's crypts at this point because there's just too much of a focus on them for there not to be something to come out of it.  Between this Bran/Jon connection which is the only time this happens, Jon's crypt dreams, Lady Dustin/Mance both asking to see the crypts, there are just so many continued references to the crypts.  And something else that really has begun to stick out to me is Arya remembering the crypts in AGOT.   Here it is:

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Fear cuts deeper than swords, the quiet voice inside her whispered. Suddenly Arya remembered the crypts at Winterfell. They were a lot scarier than this place, she told herself. She’d been just a little girl the first time she saw them. Her brother Robb had taken them down, her and Sansa and baby Bran, who’d been no bigger than Rickon was now. They’d only had one candle between them, and Bran’s eyes had gotten as big as saucers as he stared at the stone faces of the Kings of Winter, with their wolves at their feet and their iron swords across their laps.

Robb took them all the way down to the end, past Grandfather and Brandon and Lyanna, to show them their own tombs. Sansa kept looking at the stubby little candle, anxious that it might go out. Old Nan had told her there were spiders down here, and rats as big as dogs. Robb smiled when she said that. “There are worse things than spiders and rats,” he whispered. “This is where the dead walk.” That was when they heard the sound, low and deep and shivery. Baby Bran had clutched at Arya’s hand.

When the spirit stepped out of the open tomb, pale white and moaning for blood, Sansa ran shrieking for the stairs, and Bran wrapped himself around Robb’s leg, sobbing. Arya stood her ground and gave the spirit a punch. It was only Jon, covered with flour. “You stupid,” she told him, “you scared the baby,” but Jon and Robb just laughed and laughed, and pretty soon Bran and Arya were laughing too.

 

Jon is the "ghost" of the crypts here .

[Azarial]

20 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

Couldn't agree more as to your 2nd point.  I've taken to calling them Chekhov's crypts at this point because there's just too much of a focus on them for there not to be something to come out of it.  Between this Bran/Jon connection which is the only time this happens, Jon's crypt dreams, Lady Dustin/Mance both asking to see the crypts, there are just so many continued references to the crypts.  And something else that really has begun to stick out to me is Arya remembering the crypts in AGOT.   Here it is:

Jon is the "ghost" of the crypts here .

This is one of my favorites and she punched him in the stomach, just like Jon described being stabbed by Bowen feeling like a punch. 

Oh, and the reason I asked if he heard him as Summer, and you said he did. Is that he could have been woken because he heard him as a Wolf, and that triggered him to wake and doesn't really mean that they were able to wake him by interacting with his human body. If Summer was gone, and he woke that way, then we'd know it could be done. Been a long time since I read Bran though, as I did a character by character read and he was one of the first I read so as a result he's one of the most foggy detail wise for me. If I misunderstood and Summer was at a different location then we'll know that he can be woken. Like I said, I thought his ability seemed to work differently, but these details are what matter in figuring it out and there are way to many for one person to keep straight!  

I didn't remember the red wedding thing, still don't but I believe you. So Bran and Jon seem unique in this way, at least so far. It will be interesting to see if Arya begins to sense them in the next book.

As for Mance, I saw it as Mance not treating him how I'd expect on the last read but every read I notice something new so maybe I'll think differently this time lol I'm constantly changing my mind on characters like him, as we know so little about them.

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Okay, been busy so sorry for not replying sooner to everyone. 

The howling, that is something I noticed and I noticed two odd mentions that I think relate to this. I don't think it means Ghost makes a sound when Jon is in him, I think it is mentally calling out. We are also told in a Dany chapter (Poison berry chapter), and a Sansa chapter (On the mountain in the vale, don't remember if it was climbing or descending, sorry) that they hear a ghostly wolf howl (though the wording varies, but it's enough that I wondered if this was Ghost calling out to Jon's missing family members, the ones who don't have wolves. Or when he can't sense their wolves.)

Okay, I just re-read up to the wolf dream for Jon. Two things I notice are that he seems to sense Ghosts moods, but doesn't realize that is what he is doing just prior to this, and Jon is so unaware of all of this it's hard to know for sure. Then after he tries to dismiss everything as just a dream when Halfhand questions him, so that does make me wonder how many of these dreams he's had but ignored.

Then we see Ghost searches and calls out by howling, then Bran answers and his reply "Jon?" has a question mark. That is what initially made me think Jon initiated the contact. I knew there was something, but got the order all jumbled and thought there must have been a trigger for Jon, but it doesn't look like there is. It just seems sudden as Jon is unaware of all the wolf connections and seems to ignore it as dreams, and if emotions blend he doesn't seem aware, and thinks it's all his own emotions. But there are hints about him being uneasy and sensing/smelling cold at the fist that don't really make sense given what we know of him up until this point, but do fit with how Ghost is acting. He seems to attribute it to Ghosts actions making him uneasy, but I wonder. It can go either way though, as his lack of awareness and reflection make it impossible to know for sure.

The other thing was, he was searching for the wolves and (as Ran pointed out way back on an old thread where he explains how these two wolf dreams fit together, along with how Jamie's dream and Jon's crypt dream, and Theons feast dream all fit together--as I would never have figured either of those out on my own) he first links with Summer, as he smells wolf, then tree, then boy, then earth, then stone, then death. And the order seems to indicate how the connection happened. (Well to me anyway haha) I think Ghost called out, and reached summer, who via Bran and the crypts (likely from roots) was linked to the tree, and the earth (like I said earlier, I think the roots are how the signal crossed the wall, and this is why Jon smells wolf , but sees a tree) Then he smells the stone of the crypts and death, since Bran is in the crypts. But the order seems to indicate that Jon reached Summer through Ghost, but this was only able to happen because Bran was linked to Summer and the heart tree simultaneously, likely because the roots run through the crypts. I hope that makes sense...

If this is all linked through the roots, could that mean that the magic of the wall is fueled by the magic of Winterfell in some way? And maybe the crypts help fuel it? Or if the Wall is a hinge like Mel says, that Winterfell uses the roots and blood magic to draw power from the hinge for whatever magic the crypts possess? Blood being washed in the cold dark pond beneath the heart tree must mean something right?

Okay, the next interesting thing I noticed and it links to the Ghost howl. Is that when they hear, or see this, in the same location they each have some symbolism surrounding ants. Dany has them crawl over a wall, searching for a nest on the other side and squashes some of them (Gods eye or Winterfell, the objective of the Others is all I can think of here), Sansa see's the Vale lords down below when they are discussing overthrowing them and thinks they look like ants and thinks about squashing them, and Jon sees the Free folk, "a swarming mass of riders charged a shield wall, astride horses no larger than ants. And links the sounds of the battle to the rustling of steel leaves. Leaves rustling is the Old gods talking, so I take this as a warning, or message of some sort? But, it matches up with what Dany and Sansa saw, so I don't think it's a warning of the Free folk, but a warning of the Others. The dirt enclosures and people being described as a pox on the earth seems relevant to me as well, but don't even have a guess as to what it means. Then the gust of cold from the ice white mountains and an attack from above that shuts out the sun. (I know it was the eagle, but the description was odd enough that it catches my attention every time.)

I think this is all end game stuff, or at the least trying to show Jon what's coming, and maybe why. But have no solid theory on it yet. To bad Bran wasn't there for this part, since Jon almost never reflects on or interprets anything.

I'm not up to the porridge or yellow eye stuff yet, so don't want to comment on it until I re-read it in context. I just remembered it and thought it might be before this, but since it's not I'll have to wait  to see what I think, if anything.

[Tagganaro]

2 hours ago, Azarial said:

Oh, and the reason I asked if he heard him as Summer, and you said he did. Is that he could have been woken because he heard him as a Wolf, and that triggered him to wake and doesn't really mean that they were able to wake him by interacting with his human body. If Summer was gone, and he woke that way, then we'd know it could be done. Been a long time since I read Bran though, as I did a character by character read and he was one of the first I read so as a result he's one of the most foggy detail wise for me. If I misunderstood and Summer was at a different location then we'll know that he can be woken. Like I said, I thought his ability seemed to work differently, but these details are what matter in figuring it out and there are way to many for one person to keep straight!  

Yes, Summer was well away from Bran at this point and could not have possibly heard the same thing Bran was hearing if that's what you're asking.  As mentioned I believe, Summer was in the middle of hunting and killing and eating prey and was then woken by Hodor first Hodoring at Bran and then shaking him.

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I didn't remember the red wedding thing, still don't but I believe you. So Bran and Jon seem unique in this way, at least so far. It will be interesting to see if Arya begins to sense them in the next book.

This is from Bran in ASOS:

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The dream he'd had....the dream Summer had had....No I mustn't think about that dream....if he never talked of it maybe he could forget he ever dreamed it, and then it wouldn't have happened and Robb and Grey Wind would still be...

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The other thing was, he was searching for the wolves and (as Ran pointed out way back on an old thread where he explains how these two wolf dreams fit together, along with how Jamie's dream and Jon's crypt dream, and Theons feast dream all fit together--as I would never have figured either of those out on my own) he first links with Summer, as he smells wolf, then tree, then boy, then earth, then stone, then death. And the order seems to indicate how the connection happened. (Well to me anyway haha) I think Ghost called out, and reached summer, who via Bran and the crypts (likely from roots) was linked to the tree, and the earth (like I said earlier, I think the roots are how the signal crossed the wall, and this is why Jon smells wolf , but sees a tree) Then he smells the stone of the crypts and death, since Bran is in the crypts. But the order seems to indicate that Jon reached Summer through Ghost, but this was only able to happen because Bran was linked to Summer and the heart tree simultaneously, likely because the roots run through the crypts. I hope that makes sense...

Do you have a link for Ran's comment on the old thread?  Would love to read that.

 

[Azarial]

2 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

Yes, Summer was well away from Bran at this point and could not have possibly heard the same thing Bran was hearing if that's what you're asking.  As mentioned I believe, Summer was in the middle of hunting and killing and eating prey and was then woken by Hodor first Hodoring at Bran and then shaking him.

This is from Bran in ASOS:

Do you have a link for Ran's comment on the old thread?  Would love to read that.

 

Okay, so Bran can be woken, but not easily? I am so rusty on the Bran stuff...

Ah, so the Red wedding thing is just a couple of lines of recall. I can see how I missed it then. I was thinking something more detailed, and was wondering how I could forget that. But it makes sense now  

Umm, I just remember it was Ran and I think it was in the Jon Snow re-read thread, but could be learning to lead as it was drawing parallels with Jamie... I read it a long, long time ago. I keep wanting to piece all the dreams together fully, as he just mentioned it almost in passing and didn't fully type it all out. I only remember it was him because the stupid dragon thing had been bugging me forever and as soon as I read it, it just made so much sense. I would have never figured out that the wolf in Jon's crypt dream was Lyanna without that post.

[H Wadsworth Longfellow]

On 6/3/2018 at 7:38 PM, Clegane'sPup said:

I really do not understand why posters keep yapping  about

Granted the kid is to inexperienced and young to lead the NW. I just canna get around the information that Aemon & Sam finagled Jon Snows election.

Because there are readers who do not like him.  Posters whose opinions of Jon differ from yours.  That should not be hard to accept.  Sam was biased because he owed a debt to Jon and liked him.  They would never have nominated Jon if they had the benefit to know ahead of time what he would do to cause problems with Roose and Ramsay over his sister.  

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, Enuma Elish said:

Because there are readers who do not like him.  Posters whose opinions of Jon differ from yours.  That should not be hard to accept.  Sam was biased because he owed a debt to Jon and liked him.  They would never have nominated Jon if they had the benefit to know ahead of time what he would do to cause problems with Roose and Ramsay over his sister.  

You are correct, some readers dislike Jon and there's nothing difficult to understand in that. 

The issue is when readers' dislike for a fictional characters renders them completely incapable of understanding the text. That is actually quite difficult to understand IMO. There are many, many instances where the text is clear as can be, and still the rabid haters twist it and keep banging on and on about things that are factually wrong. 

[Clegane'sPup]

3 hours ago, Enuma Elish said:

Because there are readers who do not like him.  Posters whose opinions of Jon differ from yours.  That should not be hard to accept

It is not difficult for me to accept differing opinions. Personally I dunna like the whiny chip on the shoulder Jon Snow all that much. I am a Starkie though.

Story wise I do comprehend that JS did not campaign in the choosing for LC.  Aemon & Sam finagled that. Do you have ideas how Mormont's raven happened to be in that pot? I ask that frequently. So far no one has taken the time to answer that.

I also comprehend that some individuals thoughts and ideas are clouded by the show.

I also comprehend that individuals have favorite characters. Me, I like the one off characters --- such as Bronn, Blackfish, Clegane, Oberyn, Mance and Tormond.

I am an ancient individual. When I set up the thread I tried to leave the fan girl/boy aside and focus on what is happening at the Wall now that LC Snow has been tenderized.

The thread moved on and individuals brought forth what I consider to be an interesting conversation.

The thread is not a Twiddle Dee and Twiddle Dumb tweeter fest. Thanks.

 

[H Wadsworth Longfellow]

On 6/24/2018 at 2:58 PM, Clegane'sPup said:

It is not difficult for me to accept differing opinions. Personally I dunna like the whiny chip on the shoulder Jon Snow all that much. I am a Starkie though.

Story wise I do comprehend that JS did not campaign in the choosing for LC.  Aemon & Sam finagled that. Do you have ideas how Mormont's raven happened to be in that pot? I ask that frequently. So far no one has taken the time to answer that.

I also comprehend that some individuals thoughts and ideas are clouded by the show.

I also comprehend that individuals have favorite characters. Me, I like the one off characters --- such as Bronn, Blackfish, Clegane, Oberyn, Mance and Tormond.

I am an ancient individual. When I set up the thread I tried to leave the fan girl/boy aside and focus on what is happening at the Wall now that LC Snow has been tenderized.

The thread moved on and individuals brought forth what I consider to be an interesting conversation.

The thread is not a Twiddle Dee and Twiddle Dumb tweeter fest. Thanks.

 

I see.  I do not have a problem with that.  We are all expressing our personal favoritism and you get that with a lot of replies because the fans are heavily vested in one character or the other.