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Meanwhile back at the Wall

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22 hours ago, Aline de Gavrillac said:

 

 

I can understand a few of those soldiers may decide to fight for and protect what remains of Stannis' household from the Boltons. 

But more of them will take a more practical approach, like Herschel in the following clip below from Wholly Moses:

 

 

 

 

It may not come to that.  The knights can surrender Selyse, Mel, and Shireen.  

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On 5/17/2018 at 10:30 PM, Damsel in Distress said:

Jon knowing the "big picture" and still choosing to make enemies of the Boltons makes what he did even more stupid.  Jon acted stupidly and he is not cut out for leadership.  The watch would have been in better shape to carry out its mission of stopping the Others if Jon had not tried to get his sister away from her husband.  So getting back to the question.  What will Bowen, Mel, Selyse, and Tormund do?  The watch will try to organize and choose a new leader.  Tormund and the wildlings will march south to Winterfell.  Selyse and Mel will barricade themselves and their men will decide to cut their loses and make peace with the Boltons.  

 

:agree:

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On 5/17/2018 at 10:46 PM, Damsel in Distress said:

One hour after Jon's death from multiple stab wounds:

Bowen and Alliser looking at the bodies of Wunweg, Jon, and Ser Patrek.  Alliser points to Wunweg.  "Burn that one.  You don't want him coming back for you."

Thorne points to a small, dark spot in the snow, "Poor Patrek, he was a heck of a guy.  Send what's left by raven to his family"

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On 5/17/2018 at 12:42 PM, talvikorppi said:

I'm trying to think of the factions now at CB (and the Wall in general). Not even thinking about numbers, just possible divisions.

There are the Queen's men, about 50, composed of knights, sworn swords and men-at-arms (=ordinary soldiers). They seem to be mostly R'hollists of varying "piety". Are they loyal to Selyse or Mel? Or Stannis's cause or their own advancement? I don't think we should see them as a totally unified block. Selyse is a deranged religious zealot (I feel kinda sorry for her, it couldn't have been easy being married to unbending, humourless Stannis, failing to produce male heirs - so easy prey for an ambitious religious leader) but how many of the Queen's men are as zealous as she is? How many would follow Melisandre, the religious leader, over their self-interest? What happens if Mel's and Selyse's views/interests clash? So that faction is not necessarily a unified block.

Then there are the wildlings. From Jon's POV we see quite many integrating fairly smoothly, even taking the black, but even Jon is aware that many more are barely controllable. Maybe Jon is wearing pink goggles and he sees things in too positive a light? Some wildlings might feel truly loyal to Jon, but by no means all. And what will they do if he is (mostly) dead? Before he gets better? What then? So the wildlings south of the Wall are not a unified block either. Then there are the wildlings still north of the Wall, unless they get wightified soon.

There are the Norrey and the Flint and some Northmen IIRC. It seemed Jon won them over but what if he's dead? What do they know, anyway?

Lastly, there's the NW. Like others above have said, it seems most rangers and Fist of the First Men survivors plus new recruits are with Jon. Bowen Marsh and the other conservatives, who haven't witnessed the true horror, are against Jon. There must be a third NW faction, the opportunists. They'll keep their heads down and come out for the winning side.

So the factions even at CB are messy, not to mention the rest of the Wall, beyond the Wall, in the North...

Yeah, no wonder it's taking GRRM so long to write the books. :-D

The only faction that could remain loyal to Jon are the wildlings.  The rangers and the new recruits will not support Mr. Swiss Cheese after learning what he did.  They will be on board with what Bowen Marsh had to do.  The northmen are not going to be thrilled with Jon after they hear he encouraged the wedding of the wildling man to one of their highborn girls.  Which basically gives him control of her family lands.  They will see that as a threat.

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The description of choosing a new NW LC is discussed in SoS.    Jon Snow did not campaign to be LC of the NW.  In SoS his buddy Samwell and Aemon Targ did the finagling to get Snow elected.

A Storm of Swords - Samwell V       "The choosing . . . Maester, isn't there something you could do? What the king said of Lord Janos . . ."      "I recall," Maester Aemon said, "but Sam, I am a maester, chained and sworn. My duty is to counsel the Lord Commander, whoever he might be. It would not be proper for me to be seen to favor one contender over another."    "I'm not a maester," said Sam. "Could I do something?"      Aemon turned his blind white eyes toward Sam's face, and smiled softy. "Why, I don't know, Samwell. Could you?"/

 

After that discussion between Aemon & Sam, Sam set about the business of talking to a few of the multiple contenders for the LC of the NW.     To Jon Snow’s surprise the NW cast their vote for him.

Sam denies placing Mormont’s raven in the kettle ---anyone care to speculate how Mormont’s raven came to be in the kettle.

 

A Storm of Swords - Jon XII     Janos Slynt had turned from red to purple, Jon saw, but Ser Alliser Thorne had gone pale. The Eastwatch man was pounding his fist on the table again, but now he was shouting for the kettle. Some of his friends took up the cry. "Kettle!" they roared, as one. "Kettle, kettle, KETTLE!"     The kettle was in the corner by the hearth, a big black potbellied thing with two huge handles and a heavy lid. Maester Aemon said a word to Sam and Clydas and they went and grabbed the handles and dragged the kettle over to the table. A few of the brothers were already queueing up by the token barrels as Clydas took the lid off and almost dropped it on his foot. With a raucous scream and a clap of wings, a huge raven burst out of the kettle. It flapped upward, seeking the rafters perhaps, or a window to make its escape, but there were no rafters in the vault, nor windows either. The raven was trapped. Cawing loudly, it circled the hall, once, twice, three times. And Jon heard Samwell Tarly shout, "I know that bird! That's Lord Mormont's raven!"/

 

After the choosing I would assume that the Eastwatch and Shadow Tower men went back to their home station.

The above happened in book three. LC Snow gets tenderized toward the end of book five.

The reason I mention this is because there musta been some mutinous chit chat happening behind the scenes before the pink/bastard letter arrived.

Marsh is a follower. Alliser has been sent on a ranging.      BUT ---- iffin a person subscribes to the penguin theory, Alliser may have been hanging out in the wormways beneath CB and whispering in Marsh's ear. :dunno:

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4 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

The description of choosing a new NW LC is discussed in SoS.    Jon Snow did not campaign to be LC of the NW.  In SoS his buddy Samwell and Aemon Targ did the finagling to get Snow elected.

A Storm of Swords - Samwell V       "The choosing . . . Maester, isn't there something you could do? What the king said of Lord Janos . . ."      "I recall," Maester Aemon said, "but Sam, I am a maester, chained and sworn. My duty is to counsel the Lord Commander, whoever he might be. It would not be proper for me to be seen to favor one contender over another."    "I'm not a maester," said Sam. "Could I do something?"      Aemon turned his blind white eyes toward Sam's face, and smiled softy. "Why, I don't know, Samwell. Could you?"/

 

 

After that discussion between Aemon & Sam, Sam set about the business of talking to a few of the multiple contenders for the LC of the NW.     To Jon Snow’s surprise the NW cast their vote for him.

Sam denies placing Mormont’s raven in the kettle ---anyone care to speculate how Mormont’s raven came to be in the kettle.

 

 

A Storm of Swords - Jon XII     Janos Slynt had turned from red to purple, Jon saw, but Ser Alliser Thorne had gone pale. The Eastwatch man was pounding his fist on the table again, but now he was shouting for the kettle. Some of his friends took up the cry. "Kettle!" they roared, as one. "Kettle, kettle, KETTLE!"     The kettle was in the corner by the hearth, a big black potbellied thing with two huge handles and a heavy lid. Maester Aemon said a word to Sam and Clydas and they went and grabbed the handles and dragged the kettle over to the table. A few of the brothers were already queueing up by the token barrels as Clydas took the lid off and almost dropped it on his foot. With a raucous scream and a clap of wings, a huge raven burst out of the kettle. It flapped upward, seeking the rafters perhaps, or a window to make its escape, but there were no rafters in the vault, nor windows either. The raven was trapped. Cawing loudly, it circled the hall, once, twice, three times. And Jon heard Samwell Tarly shout, "I know that bird! That's Lord Mormont's raven!"/

 

 

 

After the choosing I would assume that the Eastwatch and Shadow Tower men went back to their home station.

 

The above happened in book three. LC Snow gets tenderized toward the end of book five.

 

The reason I mention this is because there musta been some mutinous chit chat happening behind the scenes before the pink/bastard letter arrived.

 

Marsh is a follower. Alliser has been sent on a ranging.      BUT ---- iffin a person subscribes to the penguin theory, Alliser may have been hanging out in the wormways beneath CB and whispering in Marsh's ear. :dunno:

 

I 100% agree. The plan to do something came about before the pink letter, so what do we know of the events beforehand, and who left the Sheild hall with Bowen?

  1. Jon pegged Allister as the leader, and most dangerous. Even when contrasted with Janos who had talked of killing Jon from the moment they met.
  2. Allister told Jon he would regret making the joke about Ghost juggling.
  3. Janos knew he killed Jon's father, and knew he'd done it unjustly and thus been sent to the wall by Tyrion, he had men from the gold cloaks that were loyal to him, the were sent to the wall with him. (They were sent to Eastwatch, but we don't hear where they wound up. They could be the men that dragged Jon from his bed during the battle. One of them would then be in charge of Eastwatch.)
  4. Allister and Janos knew Jon and Tyrion were friends.
  5. Allister lost his cushy job, was transferred to East watch and sent to Kings landing where he was left sitting as the evidence rotted because Tyrion didn't like him, largely because of how Allister treated Jon. And the Lord commander wanted to keep Jon with him, resulting in him demoting Allister.
  6. We see Jon walking the wall talking to all the men, the newly appointed officers all seem content with how things are being done as do the stewards. The general men he sees don't raise any complaints other than the builders who say they never had to work so hard under Mormont. (We know Jon has no choice as Stannis threatened to take the castles by force if they weren't occupied, but never saw Jon pass that on, likely because it would cause tension between them and the Queens men.) The rangers joke with him, and want to do more and know Bowen would never let them range.
  7. Jon suspects that the concerns they mention about the Free folk are a small faction lead by Bowen. (But, based on the hidden room and Allister being the leader in the past and their men holding Eastwatch he would be able to cross the wall and slip in through the wormways so I suspect he is involved.
  8. Bowen and Allister are implied to have contacts in Kings landing and Bowen in particular fears the Lannisters. Allister doesn't like Starks or Lannisters as he was a Targ loyalist. So Jon being a Stark, that's friends with a Lannister that got all the power he wanted and made fun of and undermined him in the process... yeah. 
  9. Bowen got injured, played for a fool by Mance, and wants nothing more then to seal the gates. Jon doesn't want to lose the ability to know the situation north of the wall, and doesn't want to strand innocent people north of the wall. they are at an impasse. 
  10. Tywin implied he wanted a Lannister man as the new Lord Commander, since a Stark Loyalist, or worse a Stark/Stark bastard has the potential to undermine the Lannister/Bolton attempt to hold the north. (Like Alys running to Jon, treating him as the ruler of the North instead of going to the Boltons.)
  11. Jon executed Janos, Allister was unable to step in and suspects Jon wants to kill him too.

So that's the who, and the why. But what was their original plan? Well, Jon wanted to go to Hardhome and take a large number of those rangers and Free folk with him. 

And Bowen wanted to seal the gates.

And Allister wanted to be Lord Commander.

Seems pretty clear to me that the plan was to let them leave. Wait. Pretend to get word that the mission failed and the men were dead. Seal the gates and have Allister step in as Lord Commander. They might have been exchanging letters with Ramsey. I heard a theory once that they might have faked the pink letter to justify them taking action against the Queens men. And using info they got from the exchange, and their own knowledge to fill it out. Then Jon said, I'm not going North I'm going south and they panicked. 

So, I am not sure of the letters being exchanged, just a theory I read on one of the old threads (either the Jon Snow re-read or Learning to lead) and figured I'd revive it here since it seems relevant. But the rest, based on all the clues we're given, I'm pretty sure it is something along those lines.

EDIT: you know seeing it all written out like this, it sure seems like Tyrions attempts to 'help' and support Jon are what lead to him getting stabbed :huh:

Edited by Azarial

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It's too bad Mandon nearly killed Tyrion otherwise Jon may have received a boatload of Stormlanders to support the Watch.

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17 hours ago, Azarial said:

 

  1. Jon pegged Allister as the leader, and most dangerous. Even when contrasted with Janos who had talked of killing Jon from the moment they met.
  2. Allister told Jon he would regret making the joke about Ghost juggling.

Yes, as has been mentioned here in this thread Alliser certainly has some kind of role to play and certainly has reasons to hold a major grudge against Jon.  I do think the "Ghost juggling" moment could be foreshadowing of Thorne's role here going forward as he never really got his revenge for being made a fool of (despite all his own efforts to do the same).

 

Quote

 

  1. We see Jon walking the wall talking to all the men, the newly appointed officers all seem content with how things are being done as do the stewards. The general men he sees don't raise any complaints other than the builders who say they never had to work so hard under Mormont. (We know Jon has no choice as Stannis threatened to take the castles by force if they weren't occupied, but never saw Jon pass that on, likely because it would cause tension between them and the Queens men.) The rangers joke with him, and want to do more and know Bowen would never let them range.
  2. Jon suspects that the concerns they mention about the Free folk are a small faction lead by Bowen. (But, based on the hidden room and Allister being the leader in the past and their men holding Eastwatch he would be able to cross the wall and slip in through the wormways so I suspect he is involved.

 

The general sense seems to be that Jon has the support of the Rangers while Marsh and Yarwyck have their stewards and builders respectively.  Which makes perfect sense as Jon's plan is more adventurous and courageous while Marsh and Yarwyck favor far more defensive measures to put it neutrally :D.  I would think that generally speaking, any NW man who was at the Fist of the First Men would largely be supportive of Jon as they would have seen the "true enemy" while men who weren't would be more supportive of Marsh as their experience at the Wall would be fighting wildlings.  However, it's clear Jon has made a positive impression on several of the new recruits, even those who came after the Others attacked, as you see guys taking the oath at the weirwood grove.

 

Quote

 

  1. Bowen and Allister are implied to have contacts in Kings landing and Bowen in particular fears the Lannisters. Allister doesn't like Starks or Lannisters as he was a Targ loyalist. So Jon being a Stark, that's friends with a Lannister that got all the power he wanted and made fun of and undermined him in the process... yeah. 
  2. Bowen got injured, played for a fool by Mance, and wants nothing more then to seal the gates. Jon doesn't want to lose the ability to know the situation north of the wall, and doesn't want to strand innocent people north of the wall. they are at an impasse. 
  3. Tywin implied he wanted a Lannister man as the new Lord Commander, since a Stark Loyalist, or worse a Stark/Stark bastard has the potential to undermine the Lannister/Bolton attempt to hold the north. (Like Alys running to Jon, treating him as the ruler of the North instead of going to the Boltons.)
  4. Jon executed Janos, Allister was unable to step in and suspects Jon wants to kill him too.

 

The whole situation is one where the NW is unable to keep its neutrality.  The NW is now being pulled in two competing political directions through no fault of its own.  Stannis's presence, rescue, and occupation of the Wall places a target on the NW for the Iron Throne.  Tywin, Cersei, etc. are further politicizing things by corresponding with Janos, Bowen, Thorne, etc. and making it clear who they prefer as Lord Commander.  From what I can gather, this seems to be a major no-no yet Janos and Bowen are being supportive of it.  The Alys situation is another one wherein there really is no way to maintain neutrality...by "staying neutral" Jon would indeed be condemning poor innocent Alys to a horrible rape and death at the hands of Cregan and helping Cregan/the Boltons in the process.  As we know, Jon is not about that.

Quote

 

So that's the who, and the why. But what was their original plan? Well, Jon wanted to go to Hardhome and take a large number of those rangers and Free folk with him. 

And Bowen wanted to seal the gates.

And Allister wanted to be Lord Commander.

Seems pretty clear to me that the plan was to let them leave. Wait. Pretend to get word that the mission failed and the men were dead. Seal the gates and have Allister step in as Lord Commander. They might have been exchanging letters with Ramsey. I heard a theory once that they might have faked the pink letter to justify them taking action against the Queens men. And using info they got from the exchange, and their own knowledge to fill it out. Then Jon said, I'm not going North I'm going south and they panicked. 

So, I am not sure of the letters being exchanged, just a theory I read on one of the old threads (either the Jon Snow re-read or Learning to lead) and figured I'd revive it here since it seems relevant. But the rest, based on all the clues we're given, I'm pretty sure it is something along those lines.

EDIT: you know seeing it all written out like this, it sure seems like Tyrions attempts to 'help' and support Jon are what lead to him getting stabbed :huh:

 

My issue with there being a pre-existing plan prior to the Pink Letter is that it doesn't make sense why Bowen and co. wouldn't act before Jon let all the wildlings through.  That would be the only real time to act, although perhaps Marsh sensed an opportunity to control the wildlings when Jon mentioned the hostages and held off.  Still, it would seem that with Marsh's genocidal racism and his more grounded, rational concern with the Watch's food stores would implore him to act before the wildlings were let through if he was planning to act.  Indeed, he flat-out says to Jon's face "This is treason" when Jon tells him of the plan to let Tormund through yet has no response when Jon calls him on that and schools him on the NW oath.  

I see the stabbing as a panicky response to Jon's double-mission of leading wildlings to Winterfell and the NW to Hardhome.  Perhaps Marsh feels he can't afford to wait until Jon and the wildlings leave as it seems the majority of the NW was also to leave simultaneously to head to Hardhome and Marsh feels like this is catastrophic to the NW (which, say what you want about Marsh, but I do believe in his own mind he his honestly loyal to the NW and what he believes it to stand for).

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21 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

My issue with there being a pre-existing plan prior to the Pink Letter is that it doesn't make sense why Bowen and co. wouldn't act before Jon let all the wildlings through.  That would be the only real time to act, although perhaps Marsh sensed an opportunity to control the wildlings when Jon mentioned the hostages and held off.  Still, it would seem that with Marsh's genocidal racism and his more grounded, rational concern with the Watch's food stores would implore him to act before the wildlings were let through if he was planning to act.  Indeed, he flat-out says to Jon's face "This is treason" when Jon tells him of the plan to let Tormund through yet has no response when Jon calls him on that and schools him on the NW oath.  

I see the stabbing as a panicky response to Jon's double-mission of leading wildlings to Winterfell and the NW to Hardhome.  Perhaps Marsh feels he can't afford to wait until Jon and the wildlings leave as it seems the majority of the NW was also to leave simultaneously to head to Hardhome and Marsh feels like this is catastrophic to the NW (which, say what you want about Marsh, but I do believe in his own mind he his honestly loyal to the NW and what he believes it to stand for).

I think we are in agreement on most things. But to answer your last two points my best guess based on the text is:

The first group were brought through by Stannis, so he had no control over it. The second group that Jon found at the grove were unexpected, and placed a giant in their midst, that causes an issue for stopping Jon by force. And he did try and convince Jon to not let the third group through. But the leaders of the Hill tribes, the queens men and the rangers also supported bring them across once they knew precautions were being taken. I almost wonder if their little group didn't send someone to warn the Hill tribes that Jon was going to do this, thinking they would stop him. That would explain him not acting sooner, and calling it treason in front of them as well as them both showing up together with the wet nurses. Jon did find that odd. But, when the hill tribes sided with Jon they were stuck.

Then more queens men show up, and the Giant and other Free folk Jon brought through haven't caused an issue (A few of the ones Stannis took, as he handled them poorly, but nothing other than a few squabbles, and if I am remembering correctly the squabbles are at East watch so that is suspicious to me). So Bowen may be having trouble getting support. If a King, two Petty Lords and your Lord commander all think something is a good idea, and they have popular support stopping them without committing treason would be very difficult, if not impossible. And Jon was talking about the people fleeing to Hardhome and the need to rescue them right after meeting with Tormund as the plans were being finalized with Tormund right after they were let through, as that is when the pink letter arrived. So Bowen may have thought the best option was to just wait it out. He is essentially a coward, who wouldn't resort to stabbing unless he had to. Plus all of Janos's men were at East watch, Allister needed time to arrive. He may have expected Val to fail, and figured Stannis would deal with Jon and could have been getting men together at Eastwatch since Cotter Pyke was gone. Three days isn't much time to get a force together, and march them from Eastwatch to castle black. And given that Jon sent people all over the place, it could mean they needed to round the builders up first. 

So lack of support at castle black and time are my best guess. 

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On 5/17/2018 at 10:30 PM, Damsel in Distress said:

Jon knowing the "big picture" and still choosing to make enemies of the Boltons makes what he did even more stupid.  Jon acted stupidly and he is not cut out for leadership.  The watch would have been in better shape to carry out its mission of stopping the Others if Jon had not tried to get his sister away from her husband.  So getting back to the question.  What will Bowen, Mel, Selyse, and Tormund do?  The watch will try to organize and choose a new leader.  Tormund and the wildlings will march south to Winterfell.  Selyse and Mel will barricade themselves and their men will decide to cut their loses and make peace with the Boltons.  

 

This, in truth, is why Marsh had to kill Jon.  Everything about Bowen's demeanor tells me he was sad for the watch, sad he has to do this, to save the watch from any further screw ups by Jon Snow.  There was no hatred in Bowen.  I don't think he was plotting to kill Jon before the Shieldhall meeting.  Jon put the Night's Watch in a terrible position and Bowen is doing what he can to save the watch from Jon's mismanagement.  

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On 6/1/2018 at 5:21 PM, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

This, in truth, is why Marsh had to kill Jon.  Everything about Bowen's demeanor tells me he was sad for the watch, sad he has to do this, to save the watch from any further screw ups by Jon Snow.  There was no hatred in Bowen.  I don't think he was plotting to kill Jon before the Shieldhall meeting.  Jon put the Night's Watch in a terrible position and Bowen is doing what he can to save the watch from Jon's mismanagement.  

Then why not arrest him and toss him an ice cell? Jon is the Lord if he is messing up it is up to a higher Lord or King to punish him. Killing your Lord is treason, just like a Lord killing a King would be treason. And if they had enough men to stab him, they had enough to arrest him. So I call BS.

Bowen was scared of he Free Folk because of how he got played, then injured at the bridge of skulls, because of BOWENS mismanagement in Mormonts absence, this lead to him disagreeing with Jon out of FEAR not logic, but he had no grounds to stop him. Even the shield hall doesn't give him that, as most of what was in that letter wasn't true as far as those men knew. Did he have Ramsey's wife? Did he have Reek? They watched Mance, who was Stannis's prisoner not Jon's, Jon wasn't even allowed to speak to him, burn.

Anyone who says the letter meant that he had to kill him isn't understanding the situation. Go re-read Tormunds reaction to the letter, no one believes it's true. Explain to me why they would believe that letter is true? Explain to me why him going to deal with a unjustified threat (Remember, he doesn't have those people and couldn't have saved Mance from execution making the threat unjustified) that would result in an attack on the wall knowing that the wall can't be defended from the south and not using any men of the nights watch in order to protect them means that there was mismanagement? Or maybe it's open six new castles, and tripling the number of men manning the wall that you find so terrible? Protecting innocent lives instead of being a bigot like Bowen, is that it? Getting a loan to ensure that everyone was fed? Following the rules of guest right instead of turning Alyce over to be killed? Not picking a fight with Stannis, who was at the wall with an army? Not arguing when Mel, whom he has no control over, said she was going to send Mance, whom she controlled not Jon, to rescue an innocent, unmarried, girl from the wilderness? Remember Stannis said Jon could have the Lord of Bones, Mance is not Jons to command.

Honestly, if you were there, you were a member of the nights watch, you know those people aren't there, you saw Mance who had zero contact with Jon burn, you're telling me you would not only believe this letter by a stranger with a reputation for torturing and killing people, but would kill your Lord Commander thus committing treason because of it? You really think this is not only the best option, but the only option?

There have been several people who hate Jon for no reason other than they supposedly love Dany and they love to go around trashing him with no facts. And not a single one has been able to answer my questions, or justify the things they say. You don't seem like one of those, otherwise I wouldn't have bothered to reply. But, Bowen wasn't sad for the reasons you give. He was sad about committing treason, and doing something he knew was wrong. His fear of the free folk, and blind hatred of them lead him to believe that the nights watch would be better without them, something he stated to Jon several times, and that caused him to do what he did. He may have liked Jon personally and that could be why he cried. Who knows. It wasn't because it was the only option, or because Jon was wrong though. The watch was the strongest it had been in hundreds of years under Jons command and the letter read like the ravings of a mad man, if you look at it through the eyes of a member of the nights watch. If someone is threatened with no cause they are allowed to defend themselves. Trial by combat is a known thing, going to war to defend yourself from a madman was what Roberts rebellion was. This is how things are done. And it was responding to a personal threat on Jons life, not a political move on Jons part so it doesn't violate his vows. Bowen was 100% wrong.

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Jon gathered wildling support at the same time he revealed what he had been up and what he was about to do.  The wildlings will prevent any arrest of Jon because they don't care about oaths, honor, and laws.  They only cared about going to Winterfell to get their beloved Mance back.  Jon used the wildlings devotion to Mance to mobilize them so he can rescue his sister from the Boltons.  Jon made it impossible for Bowen Marsh to arrest him.  Jon was going to lead the wildlings to attack the Boltons.

  1. Jon receives the Pink Letter.
  2. Jon won over the wildlings to his side and uses their devotion to Mance to get their support to do what he wanted to do, which is to attack the Boltons.  There was a lot of personal motivation in this for Jon.  Everyone at the meeting found out what Jon had been up to.  He had been conducting an illegal mission to get his sister away from the Boltons and now announced he was going to escalate that feud to war.  
  3. Bowen can't arrest Jon because of the wildlings.  But he can kill him and stop the madness from doing more harm than Jon already has.  
On 6/1/2018 at 7:21 PM, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

There was no hatred in Bowen.  I don't think he was plotting to kill Jon before the Shieldhall meeting.  Jon put the Night's Watch in a terrible position and Bowen is doing what he can to save the watch from Jon's mismanagement.  

That's coming from Jon's fan base who keeps trying to put the blame on Bowen Marsh when it was Jon who was absolutely in the wrong in the first place.

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8 minutes ago, Tour De Force said:

Jon won over the wildlings to his side and uses their devotion to Mance to get their support to do what he wanted to do, which is to attack the Boltons.  There was a lot of personal motivation in this for Jon.  Everyone at the meeting found out what Jon had been up to.  He had been conducting an illegal mission to get his sister away from the Boltons and now announced he was going to escalate that feud to war.  

If not the whole book you should at least read Jon's last chapter in Dance

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51 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

If not the whole book you should at least read Jon's last chapter in Dance

:agree:The amount that has been misconstrued from Dance by so many boggles my mind.

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1 hour ago, Tour De Force said:

Jon gathered wildling support at the same time he revealed what he had been up and what he was about to do.  The wildlings will prevent any arrest of Jon because they don't care about oaths, honor, and laws.  They only cared about going to Winterfell to get their beloved Mance back.  Jon used the wildlings devotion to Mance to mobilize them so he can rescue his sister from the Boltons.  Jon made it impossible for Bowen Marsh to arrest him.  Jon was going to lead the wildlings to attack the Boltons.

  1. Jon receives the Pink Letter.
  2. Jon won over the wildlings to his side and uses their devotion to Mance to get their support to do what he wanted to do, which is to attack the Boltons.  There was a lot of personal motivation in this for Jon.  Everyone at the meeting found out what Jon had been up to.  He had been conducting an illegal mission to get his sister away from the Boltons and now announced he was going to escalate that feud to war.  
  3. Bowen can't arrest Jon because of the wildlings.  But he can kill him and stop the madness from doing more harm than Jon already has.  

That's coming from Jon's fan base who keeps trying to put the blame on Bowen Marsh when it was Jon who was absolutely in the wrong in the first place.

The Wildlings were in the Shield hall getting drunk. Jon was alone except for Wun Wun as far as wildlings are concerned, so Bowen could have easily arrested him. And if even one wildling Val/Tormund were allowed to speak with him, he could have calmed them down. They aren't a bunch of wild and crazy savages who can't be controlled. They are just normal people who don't follow the patriarchal monarchy system. And even if they were around, there would only have been an issue if Jon resisted. Something he never did in the past.

For the rest, see above. I already explained it.  

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1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

If not the whole book you should at least read Jon's last chapter in Dance

Har! Not gonna happen. Individuals who get all up into the twitters aren't gonna waste their time reading a book chapter. They gonna watch a video and splain stuffies that someone else has regurgitated.

 

2 hours ago, Tour De Force said:

That's coming from Jon's fan base who keeps trying to put the blame on Bowen Marsh when it was Jon who was absolutely in the wrong in the first place. 

You do comprehend that it is okey dokey to dislike a fictional book character? 

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On 5/31/2018 at 4:16 PM, Widowmaker 811 said:

The only faction that could remain loyal to Jon are the wildlings.  The rangers and the new recruits will not support Mr. Swiss Cheese after learning what he did.  They will be on board with what Bowen Marsh had to do.  The northmen are not going to be thrilled with Jon after they hear he encouraged the wedding of the wildling man to one of their highborn girls.  Which basically gives him control of her family lands.  They will see that as a threat.

This.  The wildlings will leave to rescue their king from the Boltons.  They're not interested in fighting the crows.  

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1 hour ago, Azarial said:

The Wildlings were in the Shield hall getting drunk. Jon was alone except for Wun Wun as far as wildlings are concerned, so Bowen could have easily arrested him. And if even one wildling Val/Tormund were allowed to speak with him, he could have calmed them down. They aren't a bunch of wild and crazy savages who can't be controlled. They are just normal people who don't follow the patriarchal monarchy system. And even if they were around, there would only have been an issue if Jon resisted. Something he never did in the past.

For the rest, see above. I already explained it.  

I don't think you understand Jon's state of mind during his last chapters.  Jon was too consumed with thoughts of Arya.  He is not about to let Bowen Marsh, god, laws, oaths, or anybody stop him from "rescuing" Arya.  Jon was beyond reason and he was willing to commit treason to get Arya.

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1 minute ago, Enuma Elish said:

I don't think you understand Jon's state of mind during his last chapters.

I really do not understand why posters keep yapping  about

2 minutes ago, Enuma Elish said:

Jon was too consumed with thoughts of Arya. 

Granted the kid is to inexperienced and young to lead the NW. I just canna get around the information that Aemon & Sam finagled Jon Snows election.

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23 minutes ago, Enuma Elish said:

I don't think you understand Jon's state of mind during his last chapters.  Jon was too consumed with thoughts of Arya.  He is not about to let Bowen Marsh, god, laws, oaths, or anybody stop him from "rescuing" Arya.  Jon was beyond reason and he was willing to commit treason to get Arya.

Obsessed is the better word to describe Jon's mental state.  His feelings for Arya drove him to betray his duties.  

 

2 hours ago, Tour De Force said:

That's coming from Jon's fan base who keeps trying to put the blame on Bowen Marsh when it was Jon who was absolutely in the wrong in the first place.

 

27 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

You do comprehend that it is okey dokey to dislike a fictional book character? 

Guys, it is indeed okey dokey to dislike a fictional book character and even real people.  For me, I have nothing for nor against Bowen Marsh.  I happen to dislike Jon.

Edited by Anck Su Namun

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