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Wheel of Time Discussion (Spoilers)

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Since the powers that be don't want spoilers int he other thread, I start this one to resume the debate over the Taimandred theory and how RJ apparently intended it to be true but changed it after Lord of Chaos.

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I don't remember this happening. She kept the rulers of some other (and much smaller) country as pets, not Shara IIRC.

Isn't Demandred the only Forsaken who is on Shara, and he actually did a revolution there?!

Graendal definitely has the rulers of Shara among her collection of pets. And Sammael wonders why she thinks they are important.

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/books/loc/ch6.html

Contrary to what I had assumed, she definitely was in Arad Doman all along. Demandred killing Asmodean makes a lot of sense if he really plans to pose as Taim, as he doesn't want to be recognised. No need to change that, though.

As for the fighting in Shara, one could assume that the Shadow orchestrated that. If we go with the Demandred was in Shara narrative, one should think he is the one who did it.

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So it's been a long time since I read this series.  Was there ever an adequate explanation for why the Shadow always usually had the official policy that Rand was not to be killed?  Was it that the Dark One has to defeat the Dragon at the Last Battle, and there's no other way for them to win?  Does anyone else find that explanation very unsatisfying?

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13 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

So it's been a long time since I read this series.  Was there ever an adequate explanation for why the Shadow always usually had the official policy that Rand was not to be killed?  Was it that the Dark One has to defeat the Dragon at the Last Battle, and there's no other way for them to win?  Does anyone else find that explanation very unsatisfying?

I think it's because Rand was the only one who had the power to open up the DO's prison, which if I remember correctly, he does in order to then remake the prison as it was originally intended. The DO attempted to defeat him in that moment, with Mordrin's (?) help, but failed.

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8 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

So it's been a long time since I read this series.  Was there ever an adequate explanation for why the Shadow always usually had the official policy that Rand was not to be killed?  Was it that the Dark One has to defeat the Dragon at the Last Battle, and there's no other way for them to win?  Does anyone else find that explanation very unsatisfying?

The Dark One wants to turn Rand to the Shadow, as that is for some reason the preferable way to win. There seem to be other ways, but Jordan never got the chance to explain that kind of stuff in detail. What one has to keep in mind though is the big picture. Time is circular and there is a recurring sequence of seven ages. So the coming "Last Battle" is the LB only for the current revolution of the Wheel of Time. To score a real victory, the Dark One has to break that sequence and change the world in a profound way. Apparently, winning over the Light's champion is the best strategy to accomplish that.

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One argument is that the Dark One never breaks free, since we're told if he does he will remake all of space and time in his image: since the universe doesn't cease to exist or turn into hell or something, we can assume the Dark One never escapes in all of the turnings of the wheel (shades of Bakker here).

Later on there seems to be a little bit of a retcon there, with the idea that if the Dark One does escape, only that one reality/turning of the Wheel is lost, not all of them, and the Dragon will be Reborn in those worlds to continue the fight.

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Honestly... this whole Taimandred thing still has me floored.  I always kind of assumed that it was the case, but I never expected to see it in print.

Its an interesting dynamic.  I really wish some live authors *cough* Bakker *cough* would shut their mouth and not talk and just let the fan speculation run wild.  And then I just wish we still had authors like Jordan around to pick their brain about the writing process.  :dunno: 

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16 hours ago, Rhom said:

Honestly... this whole Taimandred thing still has me floored.  I always kind of assumed that it was the case, but I never expected to see it in print.

There was circumstantial evidence that Taimandred was correct, but what I liked about the theory was that surely the Forsaken would try and dominate the Black Tower.  Dumai's Wells showed without a doubt that commanding the Ashaman was more powerful than commanding a single kingdom. 

Tf you're speculating on what great victory Demandred had achieved such that he's so proud of himself when meeting the Dark One, the Black Tower is the top of the list.  It looks like the "official" story is that Demandred recruited Taim, and thus Demandred could still take some credit there, but really, why not cut out the middleman?  Not that it's a crucial point in WoT overall, but I think the story would have worked better with Taimandred than what they ended up doing. 

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37 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

There was circumstantial evidence that Taimandred was correct, but what I liked about the theory was that surely the Forsaken would try and dominate the Black Tower.  Dumai's Wells showed without a doubt that commanding the Ashaman was more powerful than commanding a single kingdom. 

Tf you're speculating on what great victory Demandred had achieved such that he's so proud of himself when meeting the Dark One, the Black Tower is the top of the list.  It looks like the "official" story is that Demandred recruited Taim, and thus Demandred could still take some credit there, but really, why not cut out the middleman?  Not that it's a crucial point in WoT overall, but I think the story would have worked better with Taimandred than what they ended up doing. 

I tend to agree.  The Shara reveal just came out of the blue.  Honestly, if you never read the Big White Book; you really didn't know anything about Shara.  For them to come in as the potential tipping point in the Last Battle felt lazy.

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Just now, Rhom said:

I tend to agree.  The Shara reveal just came out of the blue.  Honestly, if you never read the Big White Book; you really didn't know anything about Shara.  For them to come in as the potential tipping point in the Last Battle felt lazy.

Yes, I think if I hadn't read WoT theories on Demandred's whereabouts, I wouldn't have remembered Shara existed.  But then I am someone who has only read WoT once, with huge gaps in between the books, so my comprehension and recollection of the details is fairly poor. 

Also it is just really hard to believe that any humans could arrive at a huge battle between trollocs and men and say "let's join up with those trollocs".  I mean, I know that humans have been willing to lay down their lives to defend absolutely awful regimes, but this is a whole different level. 

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1 minute ago, Maithanet said:

Yes, I think if I hadn't read WoT theories on Demandred's whereabouts, I wouldn't have remembered Shara existed.  But then I am someone who has only read WoT once, with huge gaps in between the books, so my comprehension and recollection of the details is fairly poor. 

Also it is just really hard to believe that any humans could arrive at a huge battle between trollocs and men and say "let's join up with those trollocs".  I mean, I know that humans have been willing to lay down their lives to defend absolutely awful regimes, but this is a whole different level. 

True.  We'll never solve racism on this planet until we discover life elsewhere in the galaxy.  Then we'll be all like "Humans Fuck yeah!!!!"

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Just now, Rhom said:

True.  We'll never solve racism on this planet until we discover life elsewhere in the galaxy.  Then we'll be all like "Humans Fuck yeah!!!!"

Sadly, I think you're probably right. 

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43 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

Also it is just really hard to believe that any humans could arrive at a huge battle between trollocs and men and say "let's join up with those trollocs".  I mean, I know that humans have been willing to lay down their lives to defend absolutely awful regimes, but this is a whole different level. 

While Trollocs are sentient beings, they were created by humans, so the humans joining a battle on their side are really joining their masters. Racism may be solved when we discover aliens. Human greed, never.

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Unpopular opinion, but I feel like Sanderson did Elaida a disservice as a character. Sure, she was an awful human being and probably deserved what she got in the end, but even at her worst and most megalomaniacal, I never quite felt like Jordan wanted her to be the just... irredeemable monster she was in the Sanderson novels.

I don't know, maybe I'm crazy, but even more than Mat I think this was the character whose nuances, however small, got lost in translation between the two writers.

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26 minutes ago, Jamie Lannister said:

Unpopular opinion, but I feel like Sanderson did Elaida a disservice as a character. Sure, she was an awful human being and probably deserved what she got in the end, but even at her worst and most megalomaniacal, I never quite felt like Jordan wanted her to be the just... irredeemable monster she was in the Sanderson novels.

I don't know, maybe I'm crazy, but even more than Mat I think this was the character whose nuances, however small, got lost in translation between the two writers.

I think she started not being crazy, but well before Jordan died I think she was slipping into delusion.

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44 minutes ago, Jamie Lannister said:

Unpopular opinion, but I feel like Sanderson did Elaida a disservice as a character. Sure, she was an awful human being and probably deserved what she got in the end, but even at her worst and most megalomaniacal, I never quite felt like Jordan wanted her to be the just... irredeemable monster she was in the Sanderson novels.

I don't know, maybe I'm crazy, but even more than Mat I think this was the character whose nuances, however small, got lost in translation between the two writers.

I think that was because of what Fain did to her when they spoke in Tar Valon.

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1 hour ago, Jamie Lannister said:

I don't know, maybe I'm crazy, but even more than Mat I think this was the character whose nuances, however small, got lost in translation between the two writers.

Sanderson killed Mat. It's unforgivable how wrong his depiction turned out to be. . . :ack:

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Just meant that it was not just about the Tower of Ghenji stuff.

But Sanderson always had problem with shades of gray. All his characters are black and white, so there were a number of WoT protagonists we all knew he'd have a hard time getting right. . .

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