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The role of Jon Snow in TWoW

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I have seen numerous topics discussing how Jon will come back in TWoW, but there are very few theorizing what he will do once he comes back. Will he stick to his original plan of attacking Winterfell to save Arya? Will he kill his betrayers and stay at the wall?

I imagine by the time he either gets resurrected or recovers that Jeyne Poole will have already reached the wall and told him that Arya isn't really at Winterfell, and that Stannis is still alive. So would he still see reason to go to Winterfell? There are alot of Northern Lords either in, or around Winterfell at the moment, and once won back from House Bolton the Lords will probably go to Winterfell to discuss the next plan of action. This would be a good opportunity for Jon to go to Winterfell and explain the situation of the Others returning. 

Please discuss your theories, I enjoy reading them all. =)

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I don't think Jon Snow will have any part of TWOW until the epilogue, or somewhere near the end.  I believe it is possible that he will not be a POV character anymore, particularly if he is (1) full-on dead then resurrected or (2) his mind/soul/whatever goes into ghost and his body is resurrected, then his mind/soul/whatever comes back to his body.  If his body just goes into a coma and his mind floats around in ghost a bit then returns to his body a la Bran then sure he can still be a POV.  The reason I say that is that it seems like GRRM would not want to give us a glimpse into what the POV of a resurrected person would be.  By the time he comes back, I believe Stannis will have already won Winterfell, fArya will be identified as the fake she is, Rickon will be installed at Winterfell, and however Sansa/the Vale will tie back into the northern story will already be happening (gosh, if Sansa finds a way to get Baelish into Stannis or Rickon's hands as I've suggested elsewhere in the forum that would be sweet).  Tormund/Melisandre will have a major role on what goes on in the aftermath of the assassination attempt at the wall, and Davos may even be there by midway through the book (though I believe he will stay in Winterfell with Rickon) as a POV.  Anyways, suspecting that Jon will be late to the party, I imagine his revival will be whilst Stannis is about to face the first on-slaught from the Others or right after Stannis (and possibly Rickon too) has been killed in battle against the Others.  Either way, I imagine Jon's long term role is to, after Stannis is defeated by the Others, convince Daenerys to stop her war in the south (I imagine Stannis vs. Others is happening simultaneously as Daenerys vs. Aegon vs. Lannisters/Euron) and use her dragons to save the whole continent.  Jon may be made the King in the North if Stannis and Rickon die, but I imagine him mostly as an emissary.

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I expect that when Jeyne Poole arrives at the Wall, Jon will be either dead, comatose, or otherwise unavailable.  Given that Ramsay is apparently actively looking for her, whoever is in charge will probably want to get her out of town as soon a possible.  Sending her to Braavos with Tycho Nestoris (the banker) and Justin Massey makes a lot of sense.  I can even see Tycho fostering her if he thinks it would advance his own position or that of the Bank.  In any case, I doubt that Jon will be meeting FArya or know that she is fake.  I don't think GRRM would have had Theon tell her to maintain the masquerade unless it had a role to play.   By the way, Jon and Theon are the only people in the area that can identify her as fake, and Theon isn't going to do so.

I think that Jon is only injured, although severely.  Even if he is dead, I expect him to be revived/resurrected relatively quickly.  By the time he i sfunctional, the situation with Stannis and the Boltons will likely be clear.what happens next will depend heavily on the outcome of that confrontation.  In any event, I don't think he will abandon the Nights Watch or its mission.  If he does leave,, it will be to take a leadership role so that he can better "defend the realms of man."

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On 5/16/2018 at 2:25 PM, EloImFizzy said:

Will he stick to his original plan of attacking Winterfell to save Arya?

Oh boy, here we go again... 

ADwD, Jon XIII

"The Night's Watch takes no part in the wars of the Seven Kingdoms," Jon reminded them when some semblance of quiet had returned. "It is not for us to oppose the Bastard of Bolton, to avenge Stannis Baratheon, to defend his widow and his daughter. This creature who makes cloaks from the skins of women has sworn to cut my heart out, and I mean to make him answer for those words … but I will not ask my brothers to forswear their vows.

"The Night's Watch will make for Hardhome. I ride to Winterfell alone, unless …" Jon paused. "… is there any man here who will come stand with me?"

The roar was all he could have hoped for, the tumult so loud that the two old shields tumbled from the walls. Soren Shieldbreaker was on his feet, the Wanderer as well. Toregg the Tall, Brogg, Harle the Huntsman and Harle the Handsome both, Ygon Oldfather, Blind Doss, even the Great Walrus. I have my swords, thought Jon Snow, and we are coming for you, Bastard.
 

When Jon speaks in the Shieldhall, he makes it very clear why he's decided to do what he's going to do. We know Arya is a very powerful motivator, and that's just as it should be. But Ramsay has threatened the NW and its LC. People love to bring up how the NW is not supposed to interfere in the affairs of the 7K, but that's a two-way street; Ramsay has no right to threaten the Watch, even if he suspects the Watch is involved in fArya's escaping from Winterfell. Still, one could possibly argue that what Jon says is an excuse, a way he's found to justify the "unjustifiable": breaking the Watch's neutrality and meddling in the affairs of the real. But very shortly afterwards, as he leaves the Shieldhall, we have his own thoughts. He is going after Ramsay. He's gonna make Ramsay answer for his threats. And the the way he thinks about it makes it clear that he thinks it's possible Ramsay has left Winterfell already and is on his way to CB. Yes, it's that simple.

 

ADwD, Jon XIII

Horse and Rory fell in beside Jon as he left the Shieldhall. I should talk with Melisandre after I see the queen, he thought. If she could see a raven in a storm, she can find Ramsay Snow for me. Then he heard the shouting … and a roar so loud it seemed to shake the Wall. "That come from Hardin's Tower, m'lord," Horse reported. He might have said more, but the scream cut him off.

 

As to the question about Jon's role in Winds, well, I think he will be the King of Winter. 

Jon Snow, King of Winter;)

 

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I think there will be a few contributing factors and knowing how Jon is usually written (assuming he comes back to life and all that aside), he will weigh out this choice heavily in POV. He has already been extremely tempted to take Stannis's offer to Jon Stark, the only thing holding him back were his vows. Now if he accepts and Stannis survives long enough to perform the proper ceremonies, he will be in a much more powerful position to do what he needs to do because its obvious that the Nights Watch are heavily crippled and therefore so is he as its oath-bound Lord Commander. Then there will most definitely be a bitterness about being murdered by his brothers which will most likely inclune him to surround himself with loyal northern as lord of Winterfell instead of the ilk that come to join the Night's Watch. As Lord of Winterfell, or if TWOW is closer to the show in this next particular circumstance, King of the North. He will be able to unite ALL the forces of the North. The fact is, there is no point in such a heavy catalyst like the manner in which he died, just to ressurect him and offer no character growth by making Jon to decide that his death doesnt free him from his vows. I'm interested to see what Jon will decide to do with himself if Rickon gets back to him safely, I can't see him not putting Rickon on his Fathers seat in Winterfell. And I'm hoping that George (although I'm aware he might kill him at some point no matter what) will do more with Rickon and Osha then let them get picked off in a similar manner as the show. Rickon being raised to Lordship would probably be best for Jon because Jon would rule in all but name for Rickon until he comes of age as is properly groomed, and Jon is the best suited for that as well since he was raised by their father and would know what Ned would want. This would also allow Jons character to get around more most likely instead of playing the lords game. In time, once people see how real the threat is, they will finely give and allow Jon to do more radical things. Obviously they arent convinced yet or they wouldnt have killed him fir breaking some rules lol.

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He could sit out most of the TWoW and just re-emerge towards the end.

But what's going to happen in his immediate return is pretty obvious. He takes the place of Stannis, kicks Ramsay's arse, reclaims Winterfell and becomes The King in the North.

Ramsay with his dog pack to counter ghost and guttural fighting style to contrast Jon's castle taught skills exists to elevate Jon over his corpse. Winterfell exists for Jon to reclaim. The will floating about exists for Jon to become KITN. The North is his training ground, he's already had his mistake and failure, now it is for him to master.

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On 5/16/2018 at 10:25 AM, EloImFizzy said:

I have seen numerous topics discussing how Jon will come back in TWoW, but there are very few theorizing what he will do once he comes back. Will he stick to his original plan of attacking Winterfell to save Arya? Will he kill his betrayers and stay at the wall?

I imagine by the time he either gets resurrected or recovers that Jeyne Poole will have already reached the wall and told him that Arya isn't really at Winterfell, and that Stannis is still alive. So would he still see reason to go to Winterfell? There are alot of Northern Lords either in, or around Winterfell at the moment, and once won back from House Bolton the Lords will probably go to Winterfell to discuss the next plan of action. This would be a good opportunity for Jon to go to Winterfell and explain the situation of the Others returning. 

Please discuss your theories, I enjoy reading them all. =)

He will be healed/resurrected by mel burning shireen and then take the wildlings south to meet up with Stannis' troops to sack winterfell 

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The most dramatic way for this to work out would be for the watch to burn his body, only to have him emerge from the flames like Daenerys. If he did something like that, it would certainly impress Melisandra and her followers since that is what their religion is sort of all about. They would interpret that as a divine message from their god and immediately proclaim him as their king.

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I have to admit, I'm curious as to what the Queen's Men would do if Jon gets proclaimed as Azor Ahai. Unlike the King's Men, most of the Queen's Men seem like corrupt arseholes. If Jon was undeniably proven to be Azor Ahai reborn would they follow him, or abandon the cause altogether. Unlike Stannis, Jon has no claim to the throne (as far as they know) and therefore cannot grant them anything if they where to side with them. The Florents wouldn't join him for obvious reasons, but I just couldn't see the likes of Godry Farring and Clayton Suggs joining him either. Obviously if he got outed as a Targaryen then they would probably be all over him like a tramp on chips, and try to convince him to make a claim for the throne. At this point I can only see the lowest born followers of the Lord of Light joining him. 

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On 5/16/2018 at 10:25 AM, EloImFizzy said:

I have seen numerous topics discussing how Jon will come back in TWoW, but there are very few theorizing what he will do once he comes back. Will he stick to his original plan of attacking Winterfell to save Arya? Will he kill his betrayers and stay at the wall?

I imagine by the time he either gets resurrected or recovers that Jeyne Poole will have already reached the wall and told him that Arya isn't really at Winterfell, and that Stannis is still alive. So would he still see reason to go to Winterfell? There are alot of Northern Lords either in, or around Winterfell at the moment, and once won back from House Bolton the Lords will probably go to Winterfell to discuss the next plan of action. This would be a good opportunity for Jon to go to Winterfell and explain the situation of the Others returning. 

Please discuss your theories, I enjoy reading them all. =)

I'm of the opinion it will take Jon quite a while to find his way back to his body: Melisandra will attempt a resurrection but it will result in a "husk" like Drogo, because Jon's soul is in Ghost. Bran will have to guide him back to reclaim his own body, but the process will take the better part of TWoW, culminating towards the end of the novel.

In the meanwhile, the Watch will fall apart as a civil war breaks out between the hardliners and the wildlings. The wall may literally fall and the Watch itself will dissolve. When Jon finally returns to his body the organization he was sworn to will be gone. Even if he still felt bound to his oath despite the technicality of his watch ending with his death, it won't be relevant.

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I have to agree with @crlovel on this.

We've had Beric (a minor character) and Catelyn (a major character) come back from the dead. I really don't think we need a 3rd character 'cheating death' as it were.

Jon messed up big time, and when people mess up in this series, they die. Allowing Jon to make a mistake with so little consequence makes it feel as though those characters that have survived this long are basically safe, which makes the whole series less compelled.

So yeah, just let a dead man die, for crying out loud.

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9 hours ago, Giant Ice Spider said:

I have to agree with @crlovel on this.

We've had Beric (a minor character) and Catelyn (a major character) come back from the dead. I really don't think we need a 3rd character 'cheating death' as it were.

Jon messed up big time, and when people mess up in this series, they die. Allowing Jon to make a mistake with so little consequence makes it feel as though those characters that have survived this long are basically safe, which makes the whole series less compelled.

So yeah, just let a dead man die, for crying out loud.

Mistake? What mistake did Jon make? There is literally an interview with George where he says he doesn’t think Jon made any mistakes. Every decision Jon has made has been for the greater good 

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17 hours ago, Starkz said:

Mistake? What mistake did Jon make? There is literally an interview with George where he says he doesn’t think Jon made any mistakes. Every decision Jon has made has been for the greater good 

He should have compromised a little with Bowen Marsh. Even something as small as relenting on making Satin his squire would have gone a long way to improve relations between them.

His decisions were for the long-term greater good. However, failure to consider the short-term good can have dire implications for the long-term good. In the long term, Jon needed to not die, which relies on him making better short-term decisions, and generally being more able to convince the officers of the necessity of his actions.

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45 minutes ago, Giant Ice Spider said:

He should have compromised a little with Bowen Marsh. Even something as small as relenting on making Satin his squire would have gone a long way to improve relations between them.

His decisions were for the long-term greater good. However, failure to consider the short-term good can have dire implications for the long-term good. In the long term, Jon needed to not die, which relies on him making better short-term decisions, and generally being more able to convince the officers of the necessity of his actions.

I don't think going back on his decision to make Satin his steward would have changed much tbh. Marsh & co are a bunch of prejudiced cowardly bigots, and Marsh was plotting against Jon for a long time. In other words, I think the only way Marsh & co wouldn't move against Jon was if he had scraped all his plans: let those at HH die, name another steward, don't let Tormund and free folk come through, etc. 

There's no way Marsh would ever understand how these decisions were necessary and he doesn't strike me as someone who gives two fucks about the greater good. "Let them die" is, as Jon notes, the only counsel Marsh is able to offer. Maybe Jon would have listened if Marsh had something constructive to offer. 

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38 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I don't think going back on his decision to make Satin his steward would have changed much tbh. Marsh & co are a bunch of prejudiced cowardly bigots, and Marsh was plotting against Jon for a long time. In other words, I think the only way Marsh & co wouldn't move against Jon was if he had scraped all his plans: let those at HH die, name another steward, don't let Tormund and free folk come through, etc. 

There's no way Marsh would ever understand how these decisions were necessary and he doesn't strike me as someone who gives two fucks about the greater good. "Let them die" is, as Jon notes, the only counsel Marsh is able to offer. Maybe Jon would have listened if Marsh had something constructive to offer. 

Since we'll never get a Marsh POV, we can't be certain how long he was conspiring for. I don't feel we can call he and his co-conspirators cowards. They murdered a guy in braod daylight in front of everybody WHILE HE HAD TWO GUARDS WITH HIM (Rory and Horse, I think).

My reasoning is that if Jon demonstrated he could be 'reasoned with' at least once, that shows Marsh he has some degree of 'rationale' and can be worked with, even with difficulty. Systematically opposing someone on everything will breed resentment and a belief the other side is an idiot. Throwing them a bone just once can make a difference. Not always, but it can.

As it happens, I agree with Marsh on literally everything. I do, however, feel we should try to work with our opponents, not against them, to better ensure unity. It's not as satisfying or as attractive, but it is necessary to get anything done, IMHO. So Marsh should have tried to work with Jon, and Jon with Marsh, in order to hold the NW together.

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On ‎6‎/‎25‎/‎2018 at 9:23 AM, Giant Ice Spider said:

Since we'll never get a Marsh POV, we can't be certain how long he was conspiring for. I don't feel we can call he and his co-conspirators cowards. They murdered a guy in braod daylight in front of everybody WHILE HE HAD TWO GUARDS WITH HIM (Rory and Horse, I think).

My reasoning is that if Jon demonstrated he could be 'reasoned with' at least once, that shows Marsh he has some degree of 'rationale' and can be worked with, even with difficulty. Systematically opposing someone on everything will breed resentment and a belief the other side is an idiot. Throwing them a bone just once can make a difference. Not always, but it can.

As it happens, I agree with Marsh on literally everything. I do, however, feel we should try to work with our opponents, not against them, to better ensure unity. It's not as satisfying or as attractive, but it is necessary to get anything done, IMHO. So Marsh should have tried to work with Jon, and Jon with Marsh, in order to hold the NW together.

You can agree with Marsh all you want. That just makes both of you wrong.

  1. killing Jon has doomed the Night's Watch and has put the entire realm - if not the entire world - in terrible, terrible danger
  2. supporting Bolton rule for one more day longer dooms the Night's Watch and shoots the entire realm - again, possibly the entire world - in the foot

The Night's Watch can no longer be politically neutral if they want to stay true to their vows to guard the realms of men. I'm sorry but it's true. Bolton conspiracies and Bolton tyranny, particularly Ramsay, has weakened the North to the point where I don't think that it will even be possible for them recover in time for the arrival of the Others.

And if the North can't hold back the Others, the realm is doomed. Dorne less so but still...

If Jon dies, I think he will warg into Ghost and solve the problem of the Weeper and his friends (one way or another) and then dies a slow, painless second death.

 

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I think Jon is dead, wargs into Ghost and kinda get stuck in ghost for a long while. I have a feeling he will be like that for probably half the book. Then I guess the logical thing would be Mel brings him back to life. I am really interested to see how death will affect him or change him, and not have him be completely fine and normal after being dead/resurrected. I hope for Ghost POVs to take place, because why not.

Lastly, I assume by the end of the story R+L=J will be mentioned, assuming it's true. No idea if it will just be known by like Bran, or by Jon as well.

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On 7/9/2018 at 7:03 PM, btfu806 said:

I think Jon is dead, wargs into Ghost and kinda get stuck in ghost for a long while. I have a feeling he will be like that for probably half the book. Then I guess the logical thing would be Mel brings him back to life. I am really interested to see how death will affect him or change him, and not have him be completely fine and normal after being dead/resurrected. I hope for Ghost POVs to take place, because why not.

Lastly, I assume by the end of the story R+L=J will be mentioned, assuming it's true. No idea if it will just be known by like Bran, or by Jon as well.

Going on the theory that he dies and wargs into Ghost, I honestly think once he's resurrected he might be relatively fine, aside from the whole getting stabbed to death by his own men thing. 

Obviously there is a magic element to bringing someone back to life, but I feel like it is the brain shutting down and the person loosing consciousness that makes them come back fucked up. In Beric's case since he got brought back straight away I imagine his mind was relatively fine, it was probably him dying so many times that led to him getting so fucked up. Catelyn on the other hand was in a lake for a few days, so when she came back she was majorly fucked up. 

Because Jon presumably wargs into Ghost he is technically still conscious, so I'm hoping that he will be relatively unscathed. My main reason for wanted this really is because if he does come back fucked up then we will probably loose Jon's POV. 

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4 hours ago, EloImFizzy said:

Going on the theory that he dies and wargs into Ghost, I honestly think once he's resurrected he might be relatively fine, aside from the whole getting stabbed to death by his own men thing. 

Obviously there is a magic element to bringing someone back to life, but I feel like it is the brain shutting down and the person loosing consciousness that makes them come back fucked up. In Beric's case since he got brought back straight away I imagine his mind was relatively fine, it was probably him dying so many times that led to him getting so fucked up. Catelyn on the other hand was in a lake for a few days, so when she came back she was majorly fucked up. 

Because Jon presumably wargs into Ghost he is technically still conscious, so I'm hoping that he will be relatively unscathed. My main reason for wanted this really is because if he does come back fucked up then we will probably loose Jon's POV. 

That definitely makes sense. I just remember Beric saying he loses a piece of himself each time, so maybe a part of Jon is lost? Like emotion for something or w/e. But that definitely makes sense. 

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