The role of Jon Snow in TWoW

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, Morgana Lannister said:

Yes, but those are characters whose arcs continue after death in a different way, my problem with this for Jon in a clear cut way is that I think we have had enough undeads as it is but could be wrong...

I could be so dead wrong, but I really don't think Jon will die die, but will rather have a near-death experience. There's got to be a reason for all the descriptions we get on all the numerous layers of clothing they wear in the North... there's also the fact that all the mutineers [we've seen] used daggers. 

[Morgana Lannister]

1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

I could be so dead wrong, but I really don't think Jon will die die, but will rather have a near-death experience. There's got to be a reason for all the descriptions we get on all the numerous layers of clothing they wear in the North... there's also the fact that all the mutineers [we've seen] used daggers. 

also a strong possibility but there has been so much build up with characters like Varymir, say (whose prologue only read hoping for clues on living as warg beyond dead; found the character and descriptions tedious to the point of skippable -if there such a word lol) that I reckon either way we will get some warging beyond what we have yet seen with him and Ghost.  Praying it won't last half a book as POV or something lol.  I like the concept of warging but reading it I don't find easy.  I can take the scents humans cannot so easily perceive, the hunger for food, the sense of freedom but a page is about my level lol but just my opinion/preference.

[Nevets]

17 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I could be so dead wrong, but I really don't think Jon will die die, but will rather have a near-death experience. There's got to be a reason for all the descriptions we get on all the numerous layers of clothing they wear in the North... there's also the fact that all the mutineers [we've seen] used daggers. 

I too am skeptical that he is actually dead, although I think he will be out of commission for a while; long enough for things to move on without him.  For example I expect (f)Arya to come and go without meeting him, and I expect he will have some work to do putting the NW back together again (if it can be).

By the way, I am also skeptical of the notion that his (temporary) death would release him from the NW.  While other characters might make that case, I don't see Jon being willing to wiggle out of a sacred oath through such a technicality.  If he does leave the NW, it will be because he feels that he can carry out its mission through other means (such as becoming King of the North)

[aryagonnakill#2]

31 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I could be so dead wrong, but I really don't think Jon will die die, but will rather have a near-death experience. There's got to be a reason for all the descriptions we get on all the numerous layers of clothing they wear in the North... there's also the fact that all the mutineers [we've seen] used daggers. 

The first dagger is described as being buried to the hilt, meaning it went all the way in, so the clothing did not protect him.  Daggers aren't modern day kitchen knives, they were thick and long.  What has always made me 100% certain he died was that he didn't feel the blade between his shoulder blades.  That stab is death, heart, lung, spine, nothing but death in a stab wound there.

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, Morgana Lannister said:

also a strong possibility but there has been so much build up with characters like Varymir, say (whose prologue only read hoping for clues on living as warg beyond dead; found the character and descriptions tedious to the point of skippable -if there such a word lol) that I reckon either way we will get some warging beyond what we have yet seen with him and Ghost.  Praying it won't last half a book as POV or something lol.  I like the concept of warging but reading it I don't find easy.  I can take the scents humans cannot so easily perceive, the hunger for food, the sense of freedom but a page is about my level lol but just my opinion/preference.

 I Definitely agree we will see warging like we haven't seen yet. Can't wait.

Regarding the Varamyr prologue, I don't believe giving info on warging is its sole purpose. For instance, it also teaches us a bit on skinchanging another human...

46 minutes ago, Nevets said:

I too am skeptical that he is actually dead, although I think he will be out of commission for a while; long enough for things to move on without him.  For example I expect (f)Arya to come and go without meeting him, and I expect he will have some work to do putting the NW back together again (if it can be).

Yeah, I think he'll be out for a while, but not too long? Based on nothing but gut feeling, I'd say the first 1/3 of TWoW. I like the idea of fArya coming and going before Jon is back. I also agree he will put the NW back together, but it will be harder than Humpty Dumpty. But... the end result will be much closer to what the Watch was back in the day, just after the LN, and also much truer to its real purpose.

46 minutes ago, Nevets said:

By the way, I am also skeptical of the notion that his (temporary) death would release him from the NW.  While other characters might make that case, I don't see Jon being willing to wiggle out of a sacred oath through such a technicality.  If he does leave the NW, it will be because he feels that he can carry out its mission through other means (such as becoming King of the North)

Agree. My head canon tells me he won't be KitN but rather KoW, uniting the Free Folk and northerners and acting as regent for one of his siblings/cousins.

34 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

The first dagger is described as being buried to the hilt, meaning it went all the way in, so the clothing did not protect him.  Daggers aren't modern day kitchen knives, they were thick and long.  What has always made me 100% certain he died was that he didn't feel the blade between his shoulder blades.  That stab is death, heart, lung, spine, nothing but death in a stab wound there.

My take on that was totally different. Yes, to the hilt, and here's where the layers upon layers of clothing play a part. I'm not talking about mail or plate that could keep a blade from entering the body. But a dagger is described as a short blade. If a short blade has to go through wool, more wool, fabric, leather, etc, only the tip is going to go in proper. Add to that that there's more harmless spots than fatal for this tip to hit and there you go.  

As to the stab between the shoulde blades, also not necessarily fatal. Martin was vague enough so as to keep all possibilities open IMO. But as I've said, I am aware I could be totally wrong here.

[Morgana Lannister]

5 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

 I Definitely agree we will see warging like we haven't seen yet. Can't wait.

Regarding the Varamyr prologue, I don't believe giving info on warging is its sole purpose. For instance, it also teaches us a bit on skinchanging another human...

Yeah, I think he'll be out for a while, but not too long? Based on nothing but gut feeling, I'd say the first 1/3 of TWoW. I like the idea of fArya coming and going before Jon is back. I also agree he will put the NW back together, but it will be harder than Humpty Dumpty. But... the end result will be much closer to what the Watch was back in the day, just after the LN, and also much truer to its real purpose.

Agree. My head canon tells me he won't be KitN but rather KoW, uniting the Free Folk and northerners and acting as regent for one of his siblings/cousins.

My take on that was totally different. Yes, to the hilt, and here's where the layers upon layers of clothing play a part. I'm not talking about mail or plate that could keep a blade from entering the body. But a dagger is described as a short blade. If a short blade has to go through wool, more wool, fabric, leather, etc, only the tip is going to go in proper. Add to that that there's more harmless spots than fatal for this tip to hit and there you go.  

As to the stab between the shoulde blades, also not necessarily fatal. Martin was vague enough so as to keep all possibilities open IMO. But as I've said, I am aware I could be totally wrong here.

Agreed that the prologue I was referring to gave more than just warging after death

[VinAbqrq]

As I've said recently on the Mel's Future post, I believe Jon will actually die, have a second life in Ghost, and his body will be burnt by the Night's Watch.

Then, Stannis will win the Battle for Winterfell, place Rickon in charge, and return to his castle, the Nightfort. There, he's gonna complain to Mel how hard Rickon is to manage, and how everything would be easier if Jon had accepted his offer. By this time, Robb's Will would have resurfaced, and Stannis will say that Jon would have never recused his brother's offer.

Mel will then reveal that she glamoured one of the cadavers in the ice cells and burned it in Jon's place, and that Jon's body is in the Nightfort. She will then resurrect Jon by sacrificing Shireen, and Stannis will order her execution.

Jon, in the other hand, would have passed a whole half book in the skin of Ghost. When he was inside Ghost in ADWD he could sense the other direwolves, Summer, Shaggydog and Nymeria. This will happen again, and he will sense Shaggydog in Winterfell and Summer beyond the wall. When he wakes up from his death, he will learn that Rickon is alive and at Winterfell. Knowing the brothers didn't die at the Sack of Wintefell, he will assume Bran is also alive and journey north of the wall to rescue him.

Now, I believe that to be the case because his ranging north will accomplish many things plot-wise:

1. He'll find Benjen, either alive or as a wight, putting a rest on this remaining mystery.
2. He'll parallel the Last Hero legend.
3. He'll rescue Bran, as we know from show, needs to run at some point so Hodor can do his thing (trying not to spoil the show here).
4. He'll confront Bloodraven, who can likely tell about his heritage.
5. He'll get Dark Sister, now that we know the chances of it being on the cave is high.
6. He'll be far from the Wall when it falls.
7. And most importantly: It will give weight to Jon's death. One of the main problems with Jon resurrection on the show is that is happens so fast, people don't even have the chance to receive news he's dead. This will not happen in the books, since he'll stay dead for half TWOW and then spend the other half ranging north of the wall. When he returns in ADOS, he'll be claimed dead for over a year, so people will actually take him as a savior.

[Talking Hodor]

Jon's gonna get resurrected, and the only thing he'll want to do is the thing he wanted to do before he got killed - stop the Others and destroy Ramsay. He'll take a contingent of the watch, a bunch of wildlings, and link up with Stannis to do just that. During the battle, Brienne is going to pop out from behind a boulder and eviscerate Stannis, Jon and co. will retake Winterfell, he'll be proclaimed King in the North, and then he'll drop the bombshell on his new subjects, "Guess what, you're all in the Night's Watch now. Put on something black and help me man the wall, suckas!"

[kissdbyfire]

13 minutes ago, Talking Hodor said:

Jon's gonna get resurrected, and the only thing he'll want to do is the thing he wanted to do before he got killed - stop the Others and destroy Ramsay. He'll take a contingent of the watch, a bunch of wildlings, and link up with Stannis to do just that. During the battle, Brienne is going to pop out from behind a boulder and eviscerate Stannis, Jon and co. will retake Winterfell, he'll be proclaimed King in the North, and then he'll drop the bombshell on his new subjects, "Guess what, you're all in the Night's Watch now. Put on something black and help me man the wall, suckas!"

That's the plot from the abomination. 

[tugela]

On ‎5‎/‎16‎/‎2018 at 10:25 AM, EloImFizzy said:

I have seen numerous topics discussing how Jon will come back in TWoW, but there are very few theorizing what he will do once he comes back. Will he stick to his original plan of attacking Winterfell to save Arya? Will he kill his betrayers and stay at the wall?

I imagine by the time he either gets resurrected or recovers that Jeyne Poole will have already reached the wall and told him that Arya isn't really at Winterfell, and that Stannis is still alive. So would he still see reason to go to Winterfell? There are alot of Northern Lords either in, or around Winterfell at the moment, and once won back from House Bolton the Lords will probably go to Winterfell to discuss the next plan of action. This would be a good opportunity for Jon to go to Winterfell and explain the situation of the Others returning. 

Please discuss your theories, I enjoy reading them all. =)

Jon will have his own sources of information, he won't be using his enemies for news updates from the front. No one does that, even commanders as stupid as Jon. Jeyne is traveling with Stannis (and is his prisoner), so she won't be going to Castle Black.

He will come back as the Night King, unlike the TV series. The final battle will be between Jon as the force of darkness and Daenerys as the force of light. Jon will take Winterfell back, but will do so leading an army of wights.

[kissdbyfire]

Sigh. Try getting your facts straight before spewing incoherent stuff based on hate. 

Jeyne Poole was sent to the Wall w/ Justin Massey, Tycho Nestoris and Alysane Mormont and iirc 6 men.

[tugela]

On ‎8‎/‎16‎/‎2018 at 5:16 PM, kissdbyfire said:

 I Definitely agree we will see warging like we haven't seen yet. Can't wait.

Regarding the Varamyr prologue, I don't believe giving info on warging is its sole purpose. For instance, it also teaches us a bit on skinchanging another human...

Yeah, I think he'll be out for a while, but not too long? Based on nothing but gut feeling, I'd say the first 1/3 of TWoW. I like the idea of fArya coming and going before Jon is back. I also agree he will put the NW back together, but it will be harder than Humpty Dumpty. But... the end result will be much closer to what the Watch was back in the day, just after the LN, and also much truer to its real purpose.

Agree. My head canon tells me he won't be KitN but rather KoW, uniting the Free Folk and northerners and acting as regent for one of his siblings/cousins.

My take on that was totally different. Yes, to the hilt, and here's where the layers upon layers of clothing play a part. I'm not talking about mail or plate that could keep a blade from entering the body. But a dagger is described as a short blade. If a short blade has to go through wool, more wool, fabric, leather, etc, only the tip is going to go in proper. Add to that that there's more harmless spots than fatal for this tip to hit and there you go.  

As to the stab between the shoulde blades, also not necessarily fatal. Martin was vague enough so as to keep all possibilities open IMO. But as I've said, I am aware I could be totally wrong here.

Medieval daggers were designed to penetrate mail. They were not at all like modern daggers, which are more designed as cutting instruments rather than piercing ones. If one was buried to the hilt in him, he was most definitely dead.

[Comrade Yurika]

I suspect that he'll be dead for pretty much the whole book, maybe coming back right near the very end of the book. I don't think he's going to have much of any role in The Winds of Winter. Stannis will deal with the Bolton threat, and the Night's Watch will fall into a bit of a disarray with that powder keg, and then Jon will probably come back right around the time the Wall comes crashing down from Euron blowing the Horn in Oldtown.

[kissdbyfire]

2 minutes ago, KuwabaraTheMan said:

I suspect that he'll be dead for pretty much the whole book, maybe coming back right near the very end of the book. I don't think he's going to have much of any role in The Winds of Winter. Stannis will deal with the Bolton threat, and the Night's Watch will fall into a bit of a disarray with that powder keg, and then Jon will probably come back right around the time the Wall comes crashing down from Euron blowing the Horn in Oldtown.

The cracked horn Jon gave Sam? Jon has blown it already... 

ETA: maybe the horn needs something else to actually do something, whatever that is. But it has been blown, so it's not just simply blowing it that will cause the Wall to fall or anything. It may even be that Jon set something in motion when he blew it, but we don't know yet.

[Talking Hodor]

On 9/1/2018 at 1:34 AM, tugela said:

Medieval daggers were designed to penetrate mail. They were not at all like modern daggers, which are more designed as cutting instruments rather than piercing ones. If one was buried to the hilt in him, he was most definitely dead.

...but only MOSTLY dead. Now let's go blave some life back into him with the magic of plot necessity.

[BlackLightning]

On 9/8/2018 at 8:22 PM, KuwabaraTheMan said:

I suspect that he'll be dead for pretty much the whole book, maybe coming back right near the very end of the book. I don't think he's going to have much of any role in The Winds of Winter. Stannis will deal with the Bolton threat, and the Night's Watch will fall into a bit of a disarray with that powder keg, and then Jon will probably come back right around the time the Wall comes crashing down from Euron blowing the Horn in Oldtown.

Stannis will deal with the Bolton threat but Sansa and the Knights of the Vale will be the ones to end it.

Other than that....head canon confirmed.

One thing I can't figure out yet: will Rickon and Davos make it back to Winterfell before Dream of Spring?

 

Here's my prediction. After Jon's second life ends and he gets resurrected, I don't think Jon is going to be a POV character anymore. Melisandre's POV will probably do for Jon what the Davos POV did for Stannis and the Catelyn POV did for Robb.

But I think Melisandre is getting banished in Winds which opens the door for Davos and Sansa to pick up being our camera lens for Jon in Dream.

[Greg B]

In the hypothetical that we will see tWoW, and assuming Jon is resurrected (by magic or author's fiat), one assumes he will be revived into a situation where most of the Night's Watch has been slaughtered. After all, a slaughter was imminent even in the moments before the Night's Watch murdered Jon.

Since the Night's Watch no longer exists and Jon suffered a psychotic break before being murdered, he's free to assume his rightful place as the Night King and march south with the army of the dead to exact vengeance against Ramsay. Tragically, the death of Ramsay won't satiate the dark frenzy and he will continue marauding across the North, slaying Sansa and destroying the strength of the Vale and the remnants of Stannis's army before finally meeting his end (again) in Drogon's fiery breath.

[BlackLightning]

On 9/21/2018 at 6:37 PM, Greg B said:

In the hypothetical that we will see tWoW, and assuming Jon is resurrected (by magic or author's fiat), one assumes he will be revived into a situation where most of the Night's Watch has been slaughtered. After all, a slaughter was imminent even in the moments before the Night's Watch murdered Jon.

Since the Night's Watch no longer exists and Jon suffered a psychotic break before being murdered, he's free to assume his rightful place as the Night King and march south with the army of the dead to exact vengeance against Ramsay. Tragically, the death of Ramsay won't satiate the dark frenzy and he will continue marauding across the North, slaying Sansa and destroying the strength of the Vale and the remnants of Stannis's army before finally meeting his end (again) in Drogon's fiery breath.

I think that - excluding Melisandre, Val, one or two Watchmen and maybe a couple of other wildlings - the Castle Black branch of the Night's Watch will be completely obliterated. The other branches (Long Barrow, Stonedoor, Eastwatch, Shadow Tower, Queensgate) might still largely be intact.

What psychotic break? I think that such a violent treason of a murder, the amount of time he's going to have to spend as a direwolf and the subsequent resurrection will be unbelievably traumatic to Jon and he will be a very, very different character after it all. Cold, hard, unreadable, wolfish (i.e. a nasty mean streak and a crazy sex drive) and a bit broken. But what psychotic break did he have BEFORE he was murdered? His idea to leave the Watch and take an army of wildlings south to attack Winterfell? That's not a psychotic break; that's just what we call a super-emotional, really bad idea.

I can see Jon developing a similar attitude/approach to Lady Stoneheart and end up striking pure terror in the hearts of his enemies, both inside the Watch and outside of it.

However, you have to remember that Catelyn DID, in fact, have a true psychotic break before she was murdered. And even then, she still has all of her intellect and her memories intact. She isn't indiscriminately cutting any and every living person down or forcing them to join her army. No, she's specifically targeting Freys, Lannisters, their supporters and then presumably she's going to turn her attention to the Boltons.  She wants to free Edmure. And she clearly wants Arya and Sansa back, presumably to name one of them Queen as Robb's successor; maybe even name both of them Queen by splitting Robb's kingdom in half (Arya = the north, Sansa = the south). After all, she still has Robb's crown, remember?

Jon isn't just going to become an full-out villain that has to be put down by Daenerys at the Trident. Where does Melisandre fit in? Bran? The real Arya?

If I see anyone "joining" the Others, by force or free will, I think it's going to be Stannis. In my head-canon, the only question is if it will happen before Brienne kills him or after she kills him.

[kissdbyfire]

On 9/21/2018 at 6:37 PM, Greg B said:

In the hypothetical that we will see tWoW, and assuming Jon is resurrected (by magic or author's fiat), one assumes he will be revived into a situation where most of the Night's Watch has been slaughtered. After all, a slaughter was imminent even in the moments before the Night's Watch murdered Jon.

Since the Night's Watch no longer exists and Jon suffered a psychotic break before being murdered, he's free to assume his rightful place as the Night King and march south with the army of the dead to exact vengeance against Ramsay. Tragically, the death of Ramsay won't satiate the dark frenzy and he will continue marauding across the North, slaying Sansa and destroying the strength of the Vale and the remnants of Stannis's army before finally meeting his end (again) in Drogon's fiery breath.

Sorry, wut?

Not a single solitary prediction here is going to happen. 

[Guest]

On 8/10/2018 at 5:16 PM, Lord Varys said:

Narratively there is no chance that Jon is going to involve himself in the Bolton situation as it is at Winterfell right now. If George wanted to do that, he wouldn't have killed Jon now but rather at Winterfell, to start new chapter/arc for him there, after that superficial and irrelevant Bolton plot is finally over. These people are neither the true enemies nor the enemies Jon Snow should concern himself with.

Qhorin: "the best hope is Winterfell. The Starks must rally the North." How is Jon supposed to do his job if he can't even get the Lords to cooperate because they fear reprisals from Ramsay? How are the Lords supposed to listen to Jon's plans if he doesn't even have a castle or a title? 

Jon storming off to kill Ramsay - is exactly what he'll continue to do once he's resurrected. He'll just be more bitter. Stoneheart and Beric are both on missions that they would have been on if they hadn't died the first time.

As to what kind of character Jon will be post-resurrection, I think his motives will narrow. He won't really care about the noble goal of "saving everyone" - that's too much like Gandalf the White. Deep down, he'll only care about saving his family ("wolfpack") and that involves taking back Winterfell for them. According to GRRM's comments on Gandalf, Beric, and Lady Stoneheart, Jon should be transformed after his resurrection; he won't be a better person; he won't be improved; he’ll be worse for wear; he’ll be a different character; he will have lost something of himself; he won't come back nicer, or more powerful, he'll have more weaknesses; he may be mistrustful and cold toward outsiders; his memories can’t be trusted; he may slip into moments where he confuses his past with the present; he may mix up people and events; he will do morally questionable things; he would be clinging to his mission before he died, which was to kill Ramsay and save his sister.

That said, I do see a difference between Jon and the other resurrected characters - Ghost will preserve Jon's soul and hopefully his humanity.