The role of Jon Snow in TWoW

[Lord Varys]

2 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Roose has already sent the Freys and Manderly's men out to find Stannis, ay least in part b/c they were at each others' throats. And each group left Winterfell through a different gate. I'd say there's a good chance the Freys will get caught between Stannis' men (and the lake) and the Manderly men coming up behind them. 

The Manderlys could do some damage that way, certainly, and this should convince Stannis that they were (now) on his side, but it would still be 2,000 Freys against 300 Manderlys. Not something one considers to be that much of a difference unless done in a backstabbing, Ramsay-like way - or in the middle of a battle the Arnolf Karstark way.

But will the Freys actually ever believe the Manderlys are going to fight with them? I don't think so.

In that sense it may turn out that Manderly's men more or less switch sides openly as soon as they learn about Jeyne's escape. That would seal Wyman's fate, of course, if Roose finds out about that. Which he might not considering he has no way to learn what's going on outside aside by means of a maester who is now controlled by Stannis.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But, hey, perhaps an undead cousin can understand all that - although I doubt it. We see how Jon thinks of and imagines Arya to be in ADwD, and that image has literally nothing to do with the person she became.

All the Starks are becoming darker and this isn't the end of Arya's story. Some folks think Arya will meet her mother and self-reflect. That might be one reason why GRRM pushed for Stoneheart's inclusion in the show, because it could be a plot he will use to have Arya turn away from that path.

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

teaches him the value of the vows of the NW after all - that you should not allow your special interests and emotions rule you when the fate and wellbeing of mankind as a whole (or at least the people of Westeros) are at stake?

Several points here - -

• You can't take people's emotions away. You'd take the "heart in conflict" away.
• Being a slave to duty isn't enough to keep people going.
• The celibacy and crowns/glory part of the Night's Watch is quite irrelevant to the part about being the shield that guards the realm. Stannis receives no flack whatsoever for wearing a crown and fighting Ramsay with the long-term goal of defeating the Others. That's exactly what Jon is doing.
• There is no perfect knight. Or a perfect Order.
• Look elsewhere for your self-insert pristine hero.
• Might I suggest rooting for Barristan? That's basically who you want Jon to become.
• "The fate and wellbeing of mankind as a whole" luckily aligns with "keeping his family alive." That's about the most we'll get from him. 

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Sansa and Arya didn't get along very well, either.

And your conclusion is that they never will? It's important to allow for potential Sansa/Arya character growth in this regard. 

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Ned and Cat are no longer POVs for obvious reasons, and Brandon, Sansa, and Arya do not feature all that prominently in AFfC and ADwD, do they? They are not exactly *the* main characters.

See this is what I mean, about treating Bran as a side character. Now you just lumped Arya and Sansa into it. Yes there are OTHER main characters - but 47% of the books are from the POV of one family.

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Biologically, he is not a Stark. If Jon is a Stark so is Theon (at least half), Ned and Robert are Arryns, and so forth. Besides, the idea that the Targaryens don't know what family means, etc. is clearly wrong. They get along as well with their kin as the other families do - sometimes they are close, sometimes they are not.

In comparison to Targaryens-raised-as-Targaryens in this narrative we are currently reading, the current generation of living Starks are on the path toward working together during Winter, while every other House will fall apart because they don't have the pack mentality. This is setting up a Stark Rise and a Targaryen, Lannister, Martell, Tyrell, and Baratheon fall.

On the whole, the current generation of living Starks are qualitatively different from the other family members, and that matters to the story. The kinslayers (Ramsay, Craster, Tyrion, Stannis, Euron) - and those who are the "next best thing" (Axel, Dany) - are a contrast to Arya, Jon, Sansa, and Bran. 

As for Jon, I dont know what "biologically" means or even what that is supposed to prove. That he's somehow less of a Stark? They are all Stark "halves"!

There is a nature/nurture foil going on with Jon, Dany, and fAegon that will be crucial to watch. 

 

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, there is obviously a lot of room for conflict there. I think we would all be pissed if we realized that 'our father' didn't trust us enough to tell us the truth, even when we were making a decision that would change out entire life. A decision we might not make if we knew who we actually were. But that's just me.

Oh my. You really don't understand Jon's psychology.

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I never said I think they won't come together again nor that they wouldn't work together. I just said that they don't need Jon for that. That is an important difference.

I do think Jon will need help from his cousins, more than they will need his. On that we can agree. But I'm detecting a pattern. You don't see Jon as important to the other Starks, he's not enough of a main player to reclaim WF himself, he can't take any sort of action to help his family, he's not a real Stark in your eyes, and he can't rally the North to his cause because in your opinion, it's useless.

I guess he just has to sit at the Wall like he's been doing since Book 1 and wait for the Others/Weeper to attack?

These are static predictions that remove the more interesting emotional/human parts of the story.

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Jon doesn't need members of his family to tell him that the Others winning or making progress is very bad. He can see this with the wildling refugees already.

The point is that once they (slowly) start to come back home, he'll do anything to make sure they aren't torn apart again. He currently thinks they're all dead, captured, or lost. He won't really care about wildling refugees, remember? Resurrection has to change him.

My guess is he becomes darker and takes on more personal, selfish motives. He'll rely on family bonds, with a tiny bit of Stoneheart for vengeance, and Beric thrown in for good measure because he'll be trying to complete his mission.

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, I think he'll first spend some time in Ghost. Then he'll recover and try to make the best out of his very strange and unnatural situation once he is back in his own resurrected body. That should be a very compelling and interesting personal story, depending how it is told.

Hopefully he also learns stuff about the true enemy and works together with Stannis after his return to the Wall on how to stop the attack of the Others on the Wall. Depending when he is going to return he'll also have to deal with the situation at the Wall (if Melisandre and the wildlings don't do that for him), afterwards they will have to deal with the Weeper and his army who are most likely going to attack the Shadow Tower via the Bridge of Skulls, destroy it, and invade the Gifts and the North. Somebody will have to put him down or resolve the situation somehow.

Perhaps we'll get some interaction with the Others then, an attempt to attack them before they are ready, etc.

The reason why I think we won't get another Winterfell campaign simply is that this would mean we would basically get the ADwD plot again in TWoW with Jon playing Stannis' role. That just doesn't make much sense, especially since we first have to get Stannis' battle(s) before we could turn to this Jon campaign.

That doesn't sound very compelling. 

I see more brusque interactions between Stannis and Jon where Jon gets increasingly more annoyed. Can't wait. /sarcasm

Jon continues to keep fighting the Others because It's The Right Thing To Do. He returns from death to become Mr. Night's Watch Only More Perfect This Time.

Jon the White.

At least fighting Ramsay gives him a darker shade to his character. He has to come back from death "worse for wear" like GRRM says. He won't be a better person. He won't be in hero mode. And even if its not Jeyne, Ramsay tricked him. That will infuriate him even more. 

I think Jon will have to contend with a lot of conflicts in Winds. The Weeper, Ramsay, the Others, traitors in his ranks, Littlefinger (if the Vale arrives in the North), the weather, starvation, Northerners angry at him for letting the wildlings through the Wall, his wolfness, his own apathy and emotional trauma of remembering his own murder. 

Stannis vs. Ramsay doesn't even make sense from a "rivalry" standpoint. Stannis just wants Winterfell because he needs a symbolic victory. He could be fighting the Ironborn, or whoever else is holding the castle at the time. He'd probably be fighting the Starks if they didnt want to kneel to him. 

You're treating Stannis like he's a POV character. Stannis is the one foreshadowing Jon's future fight for Winterfell. Stannis is the pretender. Jon is the hidden king. Jon isn't going to be Stannis' errand boy for TWOW; he has to do shit on his own. 

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 The Others are the true enemy this series is actually building up. Ramsay is just a footnote. Roose Bolton's little bastard. He is not even the guy in charge.

Obviously, but if Dany can be fighting Aegon in the South, then Jon can be fighting Ramsay in the North. Like I said, Ramsay stole the position Jon always wanted and Jon stole Ramsay's legitimacy: a similar conflict to Dany vs. fAegon with Ramsay being someone actually worth fighting. Once those threats are dealt with, then the Others can be addressed.

Sidenote: I imagine Stannis will make an expedient decision to sacrifice his daughter under pressure from Melisandre. After the WF defeat, she would recall Blackwater when she told him he needed to burn Edric, and Davos talked him out of it. Davos isn't there to be his conscious. Stannis has been following the advice of prophets who speak word garbage in his ear for a long time now, and he listens because he's always at the end of his rope.

[Lord Varys]

53 minutes ago, Keep Shelly in Athens said:

All the Starks are becoming darker and this isn't the end of Arya's story. Some folks think Arya will meet her mother and self-reflect. That might be one reason why GRRM pushed for Stoneheart's inclusion in the show, because it could be a plot he will use to have Arya turn away from that path.

Catelyn has her own story. And her story has nothing to do with Arya's.

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Several points here - -

• You can't take people's emotions away. You'd take the "heart in conflict" away.
• Being a slave to duty isn't enough to keep people going.
• The celibacy and crowns/glory part of the Night's Watch is quite irrelevant to the part about being the shield that guards the realm. Stannis receives no flack whatsoever for wearing a crown and fighting Ramsay with the long-term goal of defeating the Others. That's exactly what Jon is doing.
• There is no perfect knight. Or a perfect Order.
• Look elsewhere for your self-insert pristine hero.
• Might I suggest rooting for Barristan? That's basically who you want Jon to become.
• "The fate and wellbeing of mankind as a whole" luckily aligns with "keeping his family alive." That's about the most we'll get from him. 

Oh, I don't think that Jon will become a white knight kind of hero. I think he'll may lose most of his humanity, be consumed by his job, and then die in the process of saving the world. He was killed to die, in the end, not to be resurrected and live happily ever after. That's a fairy-tale setting.

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And your conclusion is that they never will? It's important to allow for potential Sansa/Arya character growth in this regard. 

No, but I don't insist or proclaim stuff like that will happen.

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See this is what I mean, about treating Bran as a side character. Now you just lumped Arya and Sansa into it. Yes there are OTHER main characters - but 47% of the books are from the POV of one family.

Bran has no chapters in AFfC, only three chapters in ADwD, and did pretty much nothing of importance in ASoS.

Now, I don't think he is an insignificant character, but his true story has just begun in his second ADwD chapter. Everything else since the dream in AGoT was prologue and foreplay.

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In comparison to Targaryens-raised-as-Targaryens in this narrative we are currently reading, the current generation of living Starks are on the path toward working together during Winter, while every other House will fall apart because they don't have the pack mentality. This is setting up a Stark Rise and a Targaryen, Lannister, Martell, Tyrell, and Baratheon fall.

That sounds like nonsense to me. The Starks are not the only family/house caring for each other, nor are they presented as such. And historically it is quite clear that they don't care for all their family, or else people wouldn't tell us again and again that the old Stark kings were hard and cruel men.

And by the way, there is no Targaryen raised as a Targaryen in this story since Dany was not, in fact, raised the way a Targaryen princess was. She was raised in exile.

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On the whole, the current generation of living Starks are qualitatively different from the other family members, and that matters to the story. The kinslayers (Ramsay, Craster, Tyrion, Stannis, Euron) - and those who are the "next best thing" (Axel, Dany) - are a contrast to Arya, Jon, Sansa, and Bran.

I don't think so, considering how many innocent people Arya has murdered up to this point - and how Bran is mind-raping Hodor on a regular basis.

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As for Jon, I dont know what "biologically" means or even what that is supposed to prove. That he's somehow less of a Stark? They are all Stark "halves"!

The name goes with legitimate birth and the male line. Was Steffon Baratheon a Targaryen? Is Robert Arryn a Tully?

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There is a nature/nurture foil going on with Jon, Dany, and fAegon that will be crucial to watch.

If you say so.

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Oh my. You really don't understand Jon's psychology.

And you do? 

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I do think Jon will need help from his cousins, more than they will need his. On that we can agree. But I'm detecting a pattern. You don't see Jon as important to the other Starks, he's not enough of a main player to reclaim WF himself, he can't take any sort of action to help his family, he's not a real Stark in your eyes, and he can't rally the North to his cause because in your opinion, it's useless.

I think it is irrelevant who holds the North for the actual fight against the Others, yes. The battle is not going to be fought and won in the North.

I don't even think we have any good reason to believe that the Starks will meet or hang out long at Winterfell before the Others are defeated. Why should they want to go there in the middle of winter? What good is a destroyed castle? The place to try to stop the Others is the Wall. And after it is destroyed they will have to run. Winterfell won't save them.

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I guess he just has to sit at the Wall like he's been doing since Book 1 and wait for the Others/Weeper to attack?

No, I think the Weeper will already have attacked by the time he is back alive again. And I think he should finally try to do something important rather than wasting times, lives, and resources on the stupid Boltons.

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The point is that once they (slowly) start to come back home, he'll do anything to make sure they aren't torn apart again. He currently thinks they're all dead, captured, or lost. He won't really care about wildling refugees, remember? Resurrection has to change him.

And why should it make him care more about fleeting things like family? Death is a pretty big thing. It should teach you that things like love and family and honor and courage and all the other mortal things do not matter all that much. Especially if final death is coming for everyone, not just your loved ones, friends, and family...

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My guess is he becomes darker and takes on more personal, selfish motives. He'll rely on family bonds, with a tiny bit of Stoneheart for vengeance, and Beric thrown in for good measure because he'll be trying to complete his mission.

Considering that resurrection usually doesn't deepen personal bonds in this story in the two cases we have seen so far I'd not not consider that a likely possibility. That is darker, sure. We do know the animal taints a skinchanger, and the second life dehumanizes you to the point that you are, in the end, the animal, with no human traits left. Depending how long Jon is trapped in Ghost he may become darker in the sense that he degenerates, for a time at least, into creature who is physically human again but has the desire, tastes, and behavior of a wolf.

That kind of thing is not going to help him reconnect with his family.

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I see more brusque interactions between Stannis and Jon where Jon gets increasingly more annoyed. Can't wait. /sarcasm

Oh, I don't think it will stop at that. I think they will get at odds how to deal with the Others.

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Jon continues to keep fighting the Others because It's The Right Thing To Do. He returns from death to become Mr. Night's Watch Only More Perfect This Time.

Jon the White.

Not really. But a guy who finally understands what his job is.

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At least fighting Ramsay gives him a darker shade to his character. He has to come back from death "worse for wear" like GRRM says. He won't be a better person. He won't be in hero mode. And even if its not Jeyne, Ramsay tricked him. That will infuriate him even more. 

Jon isn't as obsessed with Ramsay as you apparently seem to think he is. He cares about his sister Arya, not this creature he has never even met. Sure, he wants to see him dead, but he wants to see a lot of people dead, actually.

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I think Jon will have to contend with a lot of conflicts in Winds. The Weeper, Ramsay, the Others, traitors in his ranks, Littlefinger (if the Vale arrives in the North), the weather, starvation, Northerners angry at him for letting the wildlings through the Wall, his wolfness, his own apathy and emotional trauma of remembering his own murder.

The Vale is not going to go north. Not in the middle of winter. They have no reason to do that. They might come in later, or they might send food, etc. but they won't go there in strength. They can wait out winter and restore Sansa to Winterfell in spring.

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Stannis vs. Ramsay doesn't even make sense from a "rivalry" standpoint. Stannis just wants Winterfell because he needs a symbolic victory. He could be fighting the Ironborn, or whoever else is holding the castle at the time. He'd probably be fighting the Starks if they didnt want to kneel to him. 

Again, nobody cares about Ramsay. It is Roose Bolton who is running the show, not his bastard. And at this point Stannis is still the king, not Jon Snow (who is dead).

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You're treating Stannis like he's a POV character. Stannis is the one foreshadowing Jon's future fight for Winterfell. Stannis is the pretender. Jon is the hidden king. Jon isn't going to be Stannis' errand boy for TWOW; he has to do shit on his own. 

Jon is no hidden king. He is a prince, perhaps, and he might become king for a time, but I don't think he is going to survive the story. He was killed for a reason.

Stannis' story has to reach its logical conclusion, and for that he has to defeat the Boltons. Shireen is not with him right now.

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Obviously, but if Dany can be fighting Aegon in the South, then Jon can be fighting Ramsay in the North. Like I said, Ramsay stole the position Jon always wanted and Jon stole Ramsay's legitimacy: a similar conflict to Dany vs. fAegon with Ramsay being someone actually worth fighting. Once those threats are dealt with, then the Others can be addressed.

Jon gives up Winterfell at the end of ASoS.

We don't know how the Second Dance thing is going to play out, but George is going to give us a better story than Jon vs. Ramsay while the other guys are killing each other. And the Others would be a very good such enemy - let him try to prevent the destruction of the Wall.

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Sidenote: I imagine Stannis will make an expedient decision to sacrifice his daughter under pressure from Melisandre. After the WF defeat, she would recall Blackwater when she told him he needed to burn Edric, and Davos talked him out of it. Davos isn't there to be his conscious. Stannis has been following the advice of prophets who speak word garbage in his ear for a long time now, and he listens because he's always at the end of his rope.

Oh, Stannis will sacrifice his only child and burn her alive. But I don't think he'll pushed into that decision - he'll come up with it himself. But that's not going to happen in the near future because Stannis and Shireen are not at the same place, and because it makes literally no sense to kill your only child and heir - the one you want to actually succeed you if you fall in battle against mortal enemies - to win against mortal enemies. That is insane and nonsensical on every possible level.

However, when winter has come, when the Others are knocking at the door, and all hope truly seems lost, then making your only child a sacrifice - who like all humanity is going to become dead and blue-eyed if you lose anyway - looks like a much more viable option.

It will still be the wrong decision, of course, and most likely one that might backfire and/or break the man completely, possibly being part of the chain reaction that leads up to the fall of the Wall, but it is not a thing that's going to happen in the next couple of chapters.

Shireen and Selyse might even leave the Wall for the time being, accompanying Massey and the banker to Braavos to collect the gold and the sellswords.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Catelyn has her own story. And her story has nothing to do with Arya's.

Again separating the Starks from each other. No reunions allowed. Cat/Stoneheart's story is inherently connected to Arya's because Arya is her daughter who is currently obsessed with death and vengeance just like her?? Moreover, she's running the Brotherhood that Arya spent time with. The Brotherhood illustrates how justice can slide into vengeance and how that's dangerous. This is exactly the lesson Arya must learn. 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, I don't think that Jon will become a white knight kind of hero. I think he'll may lose most of his humanity, be consumed by his job, and then die in the process of saving the world. He was killed to die, in the end, not to be resurrected and live happily ever after. That's a fairy-tale setting.

I think it will go completely in the other direction because 1) he hasn't lost his humanity, because Ghost preserved it, 2) the main hero dying isnt even what Tolkien did; it's what his terrible imitators did for their heroes, 3) living with the memory of your own death is a worse punishment than death, 4) no one said anything about happily ever after yet; we're still talking about the plots before the Others arrive.

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Considering that resurrection usually doesn't deepen personal bonds in this story in the two cases we have seen so far I'd not not consider that a likely possibility. That is darker, sure. We do know the animal taints a skinchanger, and the second life dehumanizes you to the point that you are, in the end, the animal, with no human traits left. Depending how long Jon is trapped in Ghost he may become darker in the sense that he degenerates, for a time at least, into creature who is physically human again but has the desire, tastes, and behavior of a wolf. That kind of thing is not going to help him reconnect with his family.

If he's inside of a direwolf for a long period of time, he'll want to be with OTHER WOLVES, aka his family. Starks sense their brothers/sisters wolves in their wolf dreams. I bet he'll be very much connected to them during this time, and will also sense Lady's loss. Waking up, he'll be even more family-bonded than before.

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Bran has no chapters in AFfC, only three chapters in ADwD, and did pretty much nothing of importance in ASoS. Now, I don't think he is an insignificant character, but his true story has just begun in his second ADwD chapter. Everything else since the dream in AGoT was prologue and foreplay.

He's made it to the Children so he's reached the same point as the Lost Hero. That journey had to be difficult or else it would feel too easy. Fewer chapters in the middle books doesn't really lessen their importance.

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That sounds like nonsense to me. The Starks are not the only family/house caring for each other, nor are they presented as such. And historically it is quite clear that they don't care for all their family, or else people wouldn't tell us again and again that the old Stark kings were hard and cruel men.

It's not just about "caring for each other" its about how their lessons and values fit with the story's themes. If the Starks heed their House words and Ned's wisdom about the wolf pack, then Jon, Bran, Arya, Sansa will be better prepared than everyone else, for "winter," metaphorically and literally. The Lannisters got the same message that family is the only thing that matters, but look how poorly they've interpreted that. 

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And by the way, there is no Targaryen raised as a Targaryen in this story since Dany was not, in fact, raised the way a Targaryen princess was. She was raised in exile.

She was raised with Viserys knowing she was a Targaryen is what I mean. She was also raised to hate the other Houses of Westeros. Quite a contrast to Jon who was raised by Ned and thinking he had no right or claim to anything and learning Ned's philosophy on justice.

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't think so, considering how many innocent people Arya has murdered up to this point - and how Bran is mind-raping Hodor on a regular basis.

Again you're judging them on half the story. They have family to pull them back from that. They are more grounded than most characters because of it. Do you see Bran or Arya purposefully killing their family members like Tyrion and Euron?

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The name goes with legitimate birth and the male line. Was Steffon Baratheon a Targaryen? Is Robert Arryn a Tully?

Will Jon behave and think like a Targaryen just because he has a Targaryen last name? Jon is culturally Northern.

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And you do? 

Jon loves and admires his father. Ned's sacrifice will only increase that love. Unless you think he'll be pissed that he could have lived his life as a Targaryen prince in exile, with Dany? hahaha he'll be pissed that Ned cheated him out of that?

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I think it is irrelevant who holds the North for the actual fight against the Others, yes. The battle is not going to be fought and won in the North.

But it does matter who holds the North because your own predictions involve Jon working together with Stannis, whom you think will hold the North. These plans won't work out if Stannis loses. 

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I don't even think we have any good reason to believe that the Starks will meet or hang out long at Winterfell before the Others are defeated. Why should they want to go there in the middle of winter? What good is a destroyed castle? The place to try to stop the Others is the Wall. And after it is destroyed they will have to run. Winterfell won't save them.

If Bran has to leave the cave, and can't stay beyond the Wall because it's too dangerous, the heart tree at Winterfell will be very important for the coming battle, I imagine. It's also probably not a good idea to dismiss a castle named after Winter "falling." If it was built in the same location where the first Long Night ended, and it was built by Brandon the Builder, he may have used some of the same magics that he used to build the Wall. Likewise, the North can't just be abandoned--it should be a defense so lives can be saved in the South. 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And I think he should finally try to do something important rather than wasting times, lives, and resources on the stupid Boltons.

Well Ramsay currently wants to kill him and any Stark that threatens his legitimacy, so I don't think he'll have much of a choice. 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And why should it make him care more about fleeting things like family? Death is a pretty big thing. It should teach you that things like love and family and honor and courage and all the other mortal things do not matter all that much. Especially if final death is coming for everyone, not just your loved ones, friends, and family...

Wow nihilism is strong with you. I have a different take. Perhaps the resurrection would teach him that life is short and to make the best of it while he can. He shouldn't spend his life slaving away at a job. No one should be a slave to duty. Jon should become LESS like Stannis. The peach is important here:

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"The peach represents... Well... It's pleasure. It's… tasting the juices of life. Stannis is a very marshal man concerned with his duty, and with that peach Renly says: “Smell the roses”, because Stannis is always concerned with his duty and honor, in what he should be doing and he never really stops to taste the fruit. Renly wants him to taste the fruit but it's lost. I wish that scene had been included in the TV series because for me that peach was important."

- GRRM, Adria's news, 2012

Hopefully Jon will find happiness in reuniting with his family which will encourage him to keep fighting.

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The Vale is not going to go north. Not in the middle of winter. They have no reason to do that. They might come in later, or they might send food, etc. but they won't go there in strength. They can wait out winter and restore Sansa to Winterfell in spring.

"Waiting out winter" - well, that could be 10 years or more. Even if the Others are defeated the climate might not change instantly because, "A Dream of Spring."

Keeping Sansa in the Vale for the next two books disregards her arc and foreshadowing for what will happen to her in TWOW. I also think she's the "real" grey girl, so I think she's going North to meet Jon and Arya will too after Stoneheart. 

I'm going to stop now because this is just getting too lengthy.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

To anyone who is assuming that the Stark family won't come and work together to withstand the long winter, may I remind you of the original title of the last book: A Time for Wolves. 

The lone wolf dies, but the pack survives

And by the way, Jon IS a Stark. He looks like a Stark, was raised like a Stark and therefore HE IS A STARK.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

 

 

 

On 10/29/2018 at 5:25 AM, Guest said:

Keeping Sansa in the Vale for the next two books disregards her arc and foreshadowing for what will happen to her in TWOW. I also think she's the "real" grey girl, so I think she's going North to meet Jon and Arya will too after Stoneheart. 

Spot on. Sansa is the most likely to be the grey girl. We all assume it's Arya because Jon immediately jumps to that conclusion, when, in reality, all Melisandre says is "I see your younger sister." We all know how GRRM is. He likes to troll us. It's Sansa who thinks it would be sweet if she could meet Jon. It's Sansa who senses him dying when she descends from the Eyrie. As to why she escaping towards the Castle Black?

Something tells me it has to do what will happen in her second chapter in TWOW. The way her first chapter ends is very ominous. I think what compels her to flee is somehow her identity as Sansa Stark will be revealed and someone who remembered and respected Ned (A Royce maybe?) helps her escape. As to how they will meet. Something tells me Sansa will meet Jon when his ghost is in Ghost.

[divica]

1 hour ago, Queen Sansa Stark said:

Spot on. Sansa is the most likely to be the grey girl. We all assume it's Arya because Jon immediately jumps to that conclusion, when, in reality, all Melisandre says is "I see your younger sister." We all know how GRRM is. He likes to troll us. It's Sansa who thinks it would be sweet if she could meet Jon. It's Sansa who senses him dying when she descends from the Eyrie. As to why she escaping towards the Castle Black?

Something tells me it has to do what will happen in her second chapter in TWOW. The way her first chapter ends is very ominous. I think what compels her to flee is somehow her identity as Sansa Stark will be revealed and someone who remembered and respected Ned (A Royce maybe?) helps her escape. As to how they will meet. Something tells me Sansa will meet Jon when his ghost is in Ghost.

Wasn t the grey girl alys karstark?

And sansa would need so much time to get to the Wall that jon probably won t be there anymore...

I think it is much more likely that sansa will influence the vale (through robin, Harry or LF) to join the north when one of her brothers becomes KitN. This way the north gains a source of food and an army untouched by the wars so far.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

18 minutes ago, divica said:

Wasn t the grey girl alys karstark?

And sansa would need so much time to get to the Wall that jon probably won t be there anymore...

I think it is much more likely that sansa will influence the vale (through robin, Harry or LF) to join the north when one of her brothers becomes KitN. This way the north gains a source of food and an army untouched by the wars so far.

This post explains it better than I ever could. 

[divica]

18 minutes ago, Queen Sansa Stark said:

This post explains it better than I ever could. 

It doesn t do a good job.

First, alys is dressed in a huge black cloak because the NW gave her the cloak because she was cold. So we don t know what she is wearing. And the second problem is that we don t know want kind of routes people can use looking at the map. When going from karshold to castle black it might be needed to ride to long lake… There is no garentee she could ride in a straight line to CB...

So at the moment we have 90% confirmation it was alys karstark.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

11 minutes ago, divica said:

It doesn t do a good job.

First, alys is dressed in a huge black cloak because the NW gave her the cloak because she was cold. So we don t know what she is wearing. And the second problem is that we don t know want kind of routes people can use looking at the map. When going from karshold to castle black it might be needed to ride to long lake… There is no garentee she could ride in a straight line to CB...

 So at the moment we have 90% confirmation it was alys karstark.

The prophecy is about his little sister and Alys, though a distant relative, isn't Jon's little sister. More importantly, there is another factor that is not considered: the tv-show. Though it has a deviated a lot from the original source (something I deeply resent them for), there are some things they actually manage to get somewhat right. Sansa fleeing to Castle Black is something that happens in season 6 and that further strengthens the theory that Sansa may be the grey girl

[divica]

Just now, Queen Sansa Stark said:

The prophecy is about his little sister and Alys, though a distant relative, isn't Jon's little sister. More importantly, there is another factor that is not considered: the tv-show. Though it has a deviated a lot from the original source (something I deeply resent them for), but there are some things they actually manage to get somewhat right. Sansa fleeing to Castle Black is something that happens in season 6 

There is no profecy. Mel sees a girl in grey riding for castle black looking for protection from jon snow and assumes it must be his sister.

And sansa can only arrive with the knights of the vale as LF did in the show in order to help take winterfell. Don t Forget that in the book there is a will naming jon as king… 

Honestly, at this point there is no reason to believe that jon will spend nearly all book in CB waiting for sansa (she would need a lot of time to get to CB).

[Queen Sansa Stark]

Melisandre literally says: … for you are bastard born. I had not forgotten. I have seen your sister in my fires, fleeing from this marriage they have made for her. Coming here, to you. A girl in grey on a dying horse, I have seen it plain as day. It has not happened yet, but it will.” -Jon, A Dance with Dragons

How can you ignore that line? Alys isn't his little sister. Sansa and Arya are. I said that the show can get some things right not everything. I am well aware of the will and I am grateful it exists. It will prevent any Northerner to have the gall of victim blaming Sansa. 

[kissdbyfire]

5 minutes ago, Queen Sansa Stark said:

The prophecy is about his little sister and Alys, though a distant relative, isn't Jon's little sister. More importantly, there is another factor that is not considered: the tv-show. Though it has a deviated a lot from the original source (something I deeply resent them for), there are some things they actually manage to get somewhat right. Sansa fleeing to Castle Black is something that happens in season 6 and that further strengthens the theory that Sansa may be the grey girl

I didn't read the link b/c I don't do tumblr. But I agree w/ @divica that the black cloak is just something they used to warm her up; the text even says the cloak is 3x her size or something like that.

The "Jon's sister" bit is, as usual, Mel filling in the blanks in her vision. She actually says as much when talking to Mance before revealing the Mance/Rattleshirt switcheroo to Jon. 

And I don't care what the abomination does or doesn't do, I can never take anything they've done as confirmation of anything. One example, I have no doubts whatsoever about R+L=J, but don't consider it confirmed yet. 

[kissdbyfire]

6 minutes ago, Queen Sansa Stark said:

Melisandre literally says: … for you are bastard born. I had not forgotten. I have seen your sister in my fires, fleeing from this marriage they have made for her. Coming here, to you. A girl in grey on a dying horse, I have seen it plain as day. It has not happened yet, but it will.” -Jon, A Dance with Dragons

How can you ignore that line? Alys isn't his little sister. Sansa and Arya are. 

She also says:

"A girl in grey on a dying horse. Jon Snow's sister". Who else could it be? She was racing to him for protection, that much Melisandre had seen clearly. 

ETA: and Jon's "little sister" is Arya. 

[Queen Sansa Stark]

On 4/18/2019 at 1:39 AM, kissdbyfire said:

She also says:

"A girl in grey on a dying horse. Jon Snow's sister". Who else could it be? She was racing to him for protection, that much Melisandre had seen clearly. 

ETA: and Jon's "little sister" is Arya. 

The "little sister" can't by Arya, because she's in Braavos and therefore can't get to Castle Black around the time Jon is ressurected. She needs way more time. Sansa, though, is kind of close to Jon. If she decides to flee from the Vale very early, like for example by the end of her second chapter, she can get on time, especially when she goes by ship to White Harbor. Sansa would be at Castle Black just right when Jon has been brought back. 

[OneFretfulTrout]

The prevailing opinion seems to be that Mel will just burn Shireen on a pyre to get the power that is required to bring him back to life. Well as far as I know, Shireen will end up as a sacrifice as she did in the show... But I could imagine that she won't simply be burned alive- mainly because we already had that two times before in the books, once with AF, and a second time with fake Mance. I am speculating that her death will be a little more elaborate. Maybe the ritual will somehow involve her heart: The heart is one of R'hllor's main symbols and its also essential in teh Azor Ahai prophecy, yet so far it didn't play any role in Melisandre's magic (exept for that one scene where Stannis pulls out Lightbringer from the statue of the mother). Moreover the heart is also strongly connected to the old Gods as well, since the weirwood trees with the faces are frequently referred to as heart trees. And then there is also the thing about the Valravn, who needs to eat a heart to transform from a half-raven, half-wolf ghost-like thing into a human. So maybe this time we will get to see something a la Indiana Jones II .