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Did LF encourage Joffrey to beat Sansa?


Joy Hill

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I'm almost certain LF egged Joffrey on to behead Ned, but do you think he might also have encouraged him to beat Sansa (telling him that girls want their men to be strong or whatever)? That way, Sansa would be willing to plot escape with one of his creatures, and when the time comes LF would appear as her savior.

 

Personally, I'm not sure because LF wanted Sansa to stay alive and pretty, and I don't believe Joff needed encouragement, but I think it's possible.

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49 minutes ago, Ylath's Snout said:

Encouraging that sort of thing could be risky. Going from "beating a girl" to "accidentally killing or crippling a girl" can happen so easy, even more so when the once doing the beating are all grown men and trained warriors.

I agree. Besides, there's also a risk that Cat's look-alike daughter becomes less pretty after those beatings.

But I think a trained warrior would be more apt than the average person to know what is a lethal blow and what isn't. (Then again, the dudes who beat Sansa seem quite moronic)

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23 minutes ago, Joy Hill said:

But I think a trained warrior would be more apt than the average person to know what is a lethal blow and what isn't.

I'm inclined to agree but if they get if wrong or loss their temper it would probably be much worse. Lower odds higher stakes so to speak. ALso if the happen the be wearing mail at the time that is pretty much the same as beating on someone with brass knuckles.

25 minutes ago, Joy Hill said:

I agree. Besides, there's also a risk that Cat's look-alike daughter becomes less pretty after those beatings.

Yeah, I don't know exactly what LF wants with Sansa but it is creepy and her beauty lekly matter to him a great deal.

I wonder what he would have done if Joffrey did something horrible to mar her looks permanently.

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I doubt it. The beatings seemed to coincide with Robb's victories in the north, and they stopped after Jaime was taken, save for that last one following Oxcross. It seems to me that the beatings were more about sending a message to Robb that Joffrey is unafraid than it was about taking any kind of revenge on Sansa -- not to say that Joffrey didn't enjoy her suffering, just that he had an ulterior motive that would not have come from Littlefinger. Since the beating after Oxcross took place publicly, out in the baily, I would believe that Cersei gave the OK for that before I would believe LF was behind it.

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Joffrey didn't need any prompting from LF or anybody else.

Sansa witnessed his humiliation at the Trident, at her sister's direwolf's jaws. The said sister then compounded the humiliation by taking away his sword, his pride and joy, and throwing it away into the Trident. The more symbolic level is Stark maids emasculating a "Baratheon" man at the Trident, a disjointed replay of Lyanna and Robert and Rhaegar and the battle of the Trident.

Oh, and Joff was left sobbing and crying for his mummy. Sansa witnessed it all. Of course a spoiled brat like Joff is going to hold it againt Sansa.

Robb's victories were just an excuse for Joff to punish Sansa for having seen his humiliation. Plus, the little shit apparently enjoyed seeing people and animals get hurt.

ETA: Also, the GoT incident at the Trident, Sansa and Arya are representing two sides of Lyanna. The romantic and irresponsibly silly and the wolf-blooded, fierce and irresponsible. It's almost like they're together doing something about the past, but it's too early and they're at cross purposes so it ends up badly. But one day... I'm sure the Stark sisters will find a common tune and then enemies of the Starks will hear the singing.

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3 hours ago, Frey Kings said:

I would rather they had her tongue out before reading any more of her POVs

It wouldn't help, because you'd still have to read what's going through her head in her POV chapters.

Logic fail.

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I think it's possible.

It's just too perfect that Sansa gets beat up by her idealized white knights who are supposed to be the living embodiment of her songs on orders from her perfect, handsome prince. It groomed Sansa for exactly what LF had planned.

I don't think LF had to worry about it going overboard in terms of force used. Joff was angry, not the KG. The KG and probably all properly trained knights are supposed to know how to train little kids in combat and we had such a scenario come up for the KG training Tommen in the story.

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On ‎5‎/‎17‎/‎2018 at 2:39 PM, Kandrax said:

I doubt it. He wouldn't gain anything from that, and i think that Sansa was planning to ecsape since Ned's execution

 

27 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

No. There wouldn't be any kind of payoff for LF, not even that of confusing the pieces by not letting them know what he's actually after.

I don't want to opine specifically to the OPs question, but I would like to add one consideration.  Sansa is, in so many ways, clearly a stand-in for Cat in Littlefinger's mind.  And while he may not admit it even to himself, I'm sure that there is a part of him that would like to see that brutality visited upon the mother.  While he may or may not have encouraged it, I think a part of him enjoyed it.  He may play cool and collected on the outside, but I think on the inside LF is a hurricane of emotion, at which Cat is in the center of the eye.

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1 minute ago, Fencer said:

 

I don't want to opine specifically to the OPs question, but I would like to add one consideration.  Sansa is, in so many ways, clearly a stand-in for Cat in Littlefinger's mind.  And while he may not admit it even to himself, I'm sure that there is a part of him that would like to see that brutality visited upon the mother.  While he may or may not have encouraged it, I think a part of him enjoyed it.  He may play cool and collected on the outside, but I think on the inside LF is a hurricane of emotion, at which Cat is in the center of the eye.

I agree about the hurricane, but I don't think LF ever allowed himself to have any ill feelings towards Cat. He convinced himself that she didn't want Brandon, but was going along with it because she was a dutiful daughter. He would have convinced himself of the same thing regarding her marriage to Ned. The kind of obsession LF had with Cat doesn't allow for any blame to attach to the object of his desire.

But let's say I'm wrong about that and part of him wanted to see Cat suffer... he's still smart enough to realize that Sansa being beaten is not the same thing, not even by a long-shot. He says she's even more beautiful than her mother was so she's not an exact copy. Not to mention that he actually has a shot with Sansa if he can only get her away from Joffrey (which he's already scheming to do by negotiating with House Tyrell once Renly is dead).

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24 minutes ago, Fencer said:

 

I don't want to opine specifically to the OPs question, but I would like to add one consideration.  Sansa is, in so many ways, clearly a stand-in for Cat in Littlefinger's mind.  And while he may not admit it even to himself, I'm sure that there is a part of him that would like to see that brutality visited upon the mother.  While he may or may not have encouraged it, I think a part of him enjoyed it.  He may play cool and collected on the outside, but I think on the inside LF is a hurricane of emotion, at which Cat is in the center of the eye.

I very much agree.

And I'll add that LF is teaching Sansa the Game though we can't say why or to what ends yet. AGOT Sansa who was incredibly naive and believed in songs, fairytales, and happily ever afters would be of no use to LF if it is indeed important to him to have Sansa play some role in whatever he's planning. She would need to be cynical, suspicious and crafty for that.

Also, a small and unheroic man like LF has no place in AGOT Sansa's world of songs and heroes. However, he does gain standing if her beloved knights and handsome prince had her beaten on a regular basis. LF now compares much more favorably than before she was beaten.

Basically, there is no AFFC plotline with AGOT Sansa. Something had to change.

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Just now, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I agree about the hurricane, but I don't think LF ever allowed himself to have any ill feelings towards Cat. He convinced himself that she didn't want Brandon, but was going along with it because she was a dutiful daughter. He would have convinced himself of the same thing regarding her marriage to Ned. The kind of obsession LF had with Cat doesn't allow for any blame to attach to the object of his desire.

But let's say I'm wrong about that and part of him wanted to see Cat suffer... he's still smart enough to realize that Sansa being beaten is not the same thing, not even by a long-shot. He says she's even more beautiful than her mother was so she's not an exact copy. Not to mention that he actually has a shot with Sansa if he can only get her away from Joffrey (which he's already scheming to do by negotiating with House Tyrell once Renly is dead). 

Destroying Ned and having some involvement in the end of her children depending on the situation, torturing and killing her sister, killing her brother-in-law, plotting to kill their son and not stopping the Red Wedding leading to the ruination of the Tullys says to me that there was a mixture of idealization and also deep resentment. It's quite common to see these two feelings mixed when it comes to obsession and it's not uncommon for people to murder those with whom they are obsessed. Getting into the prostitute business indicates misogyny on LF's part and this might well stem from resentment over Catelyn.

I would say that taking the last thing that Cat loves (assuming the rest of her family are dead and if LF has his way they will be) and turning her into his creature is not unlike revenge and also he gains the simultaneous satisfaction of gaining the object of one's obsession, or as he puts it, improves the deal by upgrading to the more beautiful version.

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9 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Destroying Ned and having some involvement in the end of her children depending on the situation, torturing and killing her sister, killing her brother-in-law, plotting to kill their son and not stopping the Red Wedding leading to the ruination of the Tullys says to me that there was a mixture of idealization and also deep resentment. It's quite common to see these two feelings mixed when it comes to obsession and it's not uncommon for people to murder those with whom they are obsessed. Getting into the prostitute business indicates misogyny on LF's part and this might well stem from resentment over Catelyn.

I would say that taking the last thing that Cat loves (assuming the rest of her family are dead and if LF has his way they will be) and turning her into his creature is not unlike revenge and also he gains the simultaneous satisfaction of gaining the object of one's obsession, or as he puts it, improves the deal by upgrading to the more beautiful version.

Those are very good points, but the resentment might be subconscious. In his own twisted mind everything he's done has been because he loved Cat, at least up until the Red Wedding.

Destroying Ned made her single. He didn't torture Lysa, but he did use her for his own ends and then dispose of her. Killing Jon Arryn wasn't necessarily about Cat at all--after all he had Lysa send that message to try and keep Ned out of King's Landing, so getting rid of Ned may well have been an improvisation, and LF may have been hoping to console the grieving widow of Winterfell.

It's not certain that he's plotting to kill Sweetrobin. He's walking a very fine and dangerous line with keeping the boy's fits under control for sure, but it's too early to say for sure what all LF is up to in the Vale.

How could he have stopped the Red Wedding? Do you think Tywin, Walder, or Roose asked what he thought before going ahead?

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14 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Those are very good points, but the resentment might be subconscious. In his own twisted mind everything he's done has been because he loved Cat, at least up until the Red Wedding.

Destroying Ned made her single. He didn't torture Lysa, but he did use her for his own ends and then dispose of her. Killing Jon Arryn wasn't necessarily about Cat at all--after all he had Lysa send that message to try and keep Ned out of King's Landing, so getting rid of Ned may well have been an improvisation, and LF may have been hoping to console the grieving widow of Winterfell.

It's not certain that he's plotting to kill Sweetrobin. He's walking a very fine and dangerous line with keeping the boy's fits under control for sure, but it's too early to say for sure what all LF is up to in the Vale.

How could he have stopped the Red Wedding? Do you think Tywin, Walder, or Roose asked what he thought before going ahead?

I agree the resentment might well be unconscious. Actually, I'm not sure he has a great understanding of his feelings about Cat in general. There's an odd frozen-in-time quality to those feelings, like on one level, he never quite developed any further.

I would guess that he was hoping to console her as a widow, but he knew she loved him so it was still a cruel thing to do. But yeah, it probably made sense to him. I didn't mean that LF was physically torturing Lysa, I meant emotionally torturing her. And no, killing Jon was directly about Cat, but if you really love someone, you don't do things which will cause them distress especially at that level. LF knew Jon's death would cause a lot of turmoil for Cat yet he did it anyhow.

I agree he may not actually be plotting to kill SR. LF's story doesn't add up as he tells it to Sansa so I'm not sure what he's really up to. But I don't think LF would hold back from killing him if it suited him so I'm going with what we've been told right now. :dunno:

As for the Red Wedding, I should have explained that further. I noticed something recently which has me questioning some of the goings on during the planning of the RW, Joff's wedding, Tyrion's marriage to Sansa, LF marrying Lysa...all of that. In ASOS Tyrion III, it looks like a lot of these things are tied together in one plan.

ASOS Tyrion III

Ser Kevan cleared his throat. "I would sooner have Petyr Baelish ruling the Eyrie than any of Lady Lysa's other suitors. Yohn Royce, Lyn Corbray, Horton Redfort . . . these are dangerous men, each in his own way. And proud. Littlefinger may be clever, but he has neither high birth nor skill at arms. The lords of the Vale will never accept such as their liege." He looked to his brother. When Lord Tywin nodded, he continued. "And there is this—Lord Petyr continues to demonstrate his loyalty. Only yesterday he brought us word of a Tyrell plot to spirit Sansa Stark off to Highgarden for a 'visit,' and there marry her to Lord Mace's eldest son, Willas."

In the previous chapter ASOS Tyrion II, we have Tywin writing what many believe are the letters setting up the RW. I think the passage above is a heavy hint that LF may have been more involved in these things than we think. Regardless, LF did not send word in warning nor aid afterward, nor express any emotion in the slightest over the RW, nor any help to Edmure. Theory on my part as to the extent of LF's possible involvement in the RW, but the lack of action before or after and the lack of emotion point to conscious or unconscious resentment for me.

 

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22 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

hose are very good points, but the resentment might be subconscious. In his own twisted mind everything he's done has been because he loved Cat, at least up until the Red Wedding.

Destroying Ned made her singl

Meh, I kinda agree with Tyrion's statement about Little finger and love; that he  reserves it for himself. 

I always saw his infatuation with the woman, due to what Catelyn is than who; she was the first daughter of the warden of the Riverlands, if he was to woo her he could prove to the nobility he is not an inferior to any man,which given his in terms of nobility relatively humble upbringing, his cruel nickname his, I imagine he feels a lot of.

 

Destroying Ned makes her a widow-but LF was too low in rank to actually court her, and during Ned's tenure as hand he seemed cool with Ned living (hench his proposal to take the Lanister children hostage), so long as he could expect an advance in power.

He hasn't really shown any real interest in avenging her murder and never really tried contacting her in the war to rekindle any feelings he thought she may feel towards him, at least feigning he may at least try to free her and get her back to the north or protect her, and bragged about taking her maidenhead openly knowing the effect it may have upon her reputation.

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