The Lord of the Crossing - interesting or boring minor character?

[The Commentator]

I find Walder Frey to be one of the more interesting minor characters.  He is more interesting than some major characters like Jon, Sansa, and Samwell, if I'm being honest.  What follows is just some general questions about Walder.  I want to read your opinion of this man.  

1. Can you provide an example of Walder being stingy? Being generous?  How do you think Walder compares to the average nobleman in terms of generosity?
2. If you were to treat Walder with courtesy and respect, do you think he could be trusted in business?  Say you were a nobleman who wanted to do business with the Freys and you treat them with respect, as opposed to what the Starks did, can you trust Walder Frey?
3. Was Fat Walda a suitable match for Roose Bolton?  
4. Do you consider it snobbery when Hoster refused to attend Walder's wedding?  
5. How does our author view the Freys, in your opinion?  
6. Finally, if you were Lord Walder, how would you deal with Robb's betrayal?  

[Ylath's Snout]

15 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

If you were to treat Walder with courtesy and respect, do you think he could be trusted in business? 

One problem with this is that if you acquiesce to Walder's demands for respect and deference every other Lord will start make similar demands, as aside from his wealth he's kinda lacking in deeds demanding respect. Pulling the "Late Lord Frey" move might have been smart but you can't really expect any respect or accolades for doing that sort of thing.

Respect is earned not demanded.

21 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Do you consider it snobbery when Hoster refused to attend Walder's wedding?  

Not really, the Frey failed to meet their obligation to their Liege Lord by intentionally not participating in a crucial battle. Revoking their titles and land on this alone, especially lacking evidence, would be going too far but shaming Walder by not attending another of his marriages seems reasonable. One might have attended to "mend fences" so to speak but letting underling get too full of themselves is dangerous, just look at the Reynes.

21 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Finally, if you were Lord Walder, how would you deal with Robb's betrayal?  

I don't like what he did but it very much makes sense for his character. The one big problem is that the RW burns irrevocably burns the Frey reputation for a long time, so pulling something similar without breaking Guest Rights would be optimal but I am unsure of how you'd go about doing that.

If you want a non-RW scenario then demand that you get Brann and Rickon as hostages right now and get to foster any of Robb and Jeyne's kids that you want while also first pick on any marriages with those kids. That way you really got Robb by the short hair and if things go to heck for Robb you got some valuable hostages to trade to the Lannisters.

[Bernie Mac]

11 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

 

1. Can you provide an example of Walder being stingy? Being generous?  How do you think Walder compares to the average nobleman in terms of generosity?

The dowry for Fat Walda was clearly generous. But overall I doubt there is much difference in terms of generosity/stinginess between Walder and the average noble.  

11 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

1. If you were to treat Walder with courtesy and respect, do you think he could be trusted in business?  Say you were a nobleman who wanted to do business with the Freys and you treat them with respect, as opposed to what the Starks did, can you trust Walder Frey?

Sure. They would not have made as many marriage alliances with so many prominent families if they were not 'trusted'. Though business seems the wrong word, the are feudal nobles, they look down upon merchants who carry out business. Alliances were made through marriages and wardships/squires rather than mutual business. 

11 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

1. Was Fat Walda a suitable match for Roose Bolton?  

Certainly. She was the granddaughter of the Lord of the Twins and the Lord of Darry and is either a great granddaughter or a great great granddaughter of the Lord of Crakehall. Her pedigree is more than suitable for Roose. He may have been able to do slightly better, but I doubt by much. 

11 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

1. Do you consider it snobbery when Hoster refused to attend Walder's wedding?  

No. Walder and Hoster simply did not like each other. Hoster weaponized the Frey's age as a means to insult him but if it was not that it would have been something else. 

Walder was a contemporary of the previous two Lords of Riverrun, he may not have respected the new 'boy' lord and Hoster may not have liked his most powerful vassal treating him like a kid. 

We learn that Hoster was willing to organize a marriage alliance with Walder

"Bethany Redwyne wed Lord Rowan years ago," Catelyn reminded him. "She has three children by him."

"Even so," Lord Hoster muttered. "Even so. Spit on the girl. The Redwynes. Spit on me. His lord, his brother … that Blackfish. I had other offers. Lord Bracken's girl. Walder Frey … any of three, he said … Has he wed? Anyone? Anyone?

 

 

11 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

1. How does our author view the Freys, in your opinion?  

I'd guess it was varied given the large cast that makes up House Frey. Walder is clearly not to be liked nor is Emmon or Ryam and his two oldest sons or the two wards at Winterfell or the contingent at White Harbor. 

Merrett, as incompetent as he is, comes across as quiet sympathetic in his pov chapter and he points out Walder's main positive, his treatment of his family. Cleos also comes across as a well meaning if not charismatic or dynamic noble in Jaime's chapters. Perwyn, Olyvar, Rosslyn and the bastard Martyn all come across as pleasant (well as much as tertiary characters can). 

After that it is a mixed bag, we get characters like Walder Rivers who seems to be something of a badass, Arwood who is doing his duty in fighting outlaws with his cousins the Haighs, Lothar who is something of a mirror image to Tyrion given his disability not stopping him from being as deadly as any of his brothers. 

Given how much time GRRM has spent on the family tree, the fleshing out of minor characters it is likely he does have an attachment to the House. While they may be doomed and Walder's actions at the Red Wedding abhorrent I don't think he shares the same hatred and disgust of the House that much of his fanbase does. 

11 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

1. Finally, if you were Lord Walder, how would you deal with Robb's betrayal?  

Hopefully more pragmatically than Walder. But who knows, the loss of his heir probably made Walder act recklessly and abandon logic. I can understand his need for revenge and given his age the rush to do it but I'd hope I would act more sensible. Sadly given the setting few of the characters do so when their blood suffers. 

[John Suburbs]

3 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

I find Walder Frey to be one of the more interesting minor characters.  He is more interesting than some major characters like Jon, Sansa, and Samwell, if I'm being honest.  What follows is just some general questions about Walder.  I want to read your opinion of this man.  

1. Can you provide an example of Walder being stingy? Being generous?  How do you think Walder compares to the average nobleman in terms of generosity?
2. If you were to treat Walder with courtesy and respect, do you think he could be trusted in business?  Say you were a nobleman who wanted to do business with the Freys and you treat them with respect, as opposed to what the Starks did, can you trust Walder Frey?
3. Was Fat Walda a suitable match for Roose Bolton?  
4. Do you consider it snobbery when Hoster refused to attend Walder's wedding?  
5. How does our author view the Freys, in your opinion?  
6. Finally, if you were Lord Walder, how would you deal with Robb's betrayal?  

1) The Freys don't seem to dress very finely, nor does anyone comment on the grandeur or lavishness of their halls. But I suspect House Frey is not nearly as wealthy as people think. The crossing has not served a vital military purpose to anyone for 300 years or more and it is no longer on the main trade route. Meanwhile, Walder has a huge family to care for, so I suspect it's not a matter of being stingy but matching his outflow with his income.

2 ) Trust no one.

3) FW is Walder's granddaughter by his third wife, so it's not a bad match for Roose. Remember, Roose is already lord of his own castle, so he is not looking to inherit the Twins, or else he would have chosen Edwyn's daughter, Walda. The silver is of more use to him than status.

4) Probably a little bit, but like @Ylath's Snout mentioned, Walder hasn't done much to please his lord over the years.

5) Walder Frey is a lot like Sir Ralph Neville, a real-life 14thC knight who is also a character in Henry V. Neville had lots of wives, lots of children, and he was known for violating parley and other chivalric codes.

6) I would have sent one or more of the many Freys in Robb's camp to kill Jeyne and all the Westerlings in their sleep, claim ignorance of the whole thing and then insist that widowed Robb fulfill his promises.

[Ylath's Snout]

5 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

I would have sent one or more of the many Freys in Robb's camp to kill Jeyne and all the Westerlings in their sleep, claim ignorance of the whole thing and then insist that widowed Robb fulfill his promises.

I'd want some more deniability but that isn't a half-bad plan. Assuming Walder didn't want to flipp to the Lannisters side.

Maybe hiring some sellswords and then killing them claiming they resisted arrest?

[Lady Topspin]

He's hilarious.  Interesting and far from boring.

I will use Bernie's example here.  Other families married Freys.  The Freys can be trusted.  Do business with Walder and follow what you agreed to do.  He will do the same.  

Fat Walda married the warden of the north.  It is marrying up but the generous dowry makes it even.

It was not diplomatic for Hoster to do that.  I can see why Walder would feel insulted.  

 

[shameeka]

 

1. I think Walder is pretty generous to those who he considers kin or friends. However, to strangers he is more reluctant towards strangers unless he can get something in return.

2. I were an average noble lord in Westeros the reputations of "Late" Lord Frey would affect my judgment so I probably wouldn't trust him.

3. Yes, for reasons that others already explained.

4. No, to him, Walder is a disrespectful bannerman and deserves humiliation.

5. I don't know how GRRM's mind works, so I won't voice any opinion.

6. If I want to stay in Robb's side, assasinate Jeyne and demand Robb to marry a Frey girl or if I want to switch sides, close the gates of the Twins and hold them off until the Lannisters attack them from behind or whatever.

[Quoth the raven,]

He's fun to read, old Walder Frey.  Apparently many trusted him enough to use his bridge and marry into his family.  He's connected to the Lannisters, to name just one.  We have nothing definite to go on for the reason he was late to the trident, but Hoster was rebelling against their king.  It's not an easy decision for any lord.  At least it shouldn't be.  The Freys might have been made Lord of the Riverlands if the royal forces had prevailed in the war.  

[Chancho]

Walder is the best nobleman of them all, you can't demand shit like you better than him, he is such a boss he make his liege lord life hell and punish kings  who think they were above them all, treating his vassal who risked and bled for him unworthy of the king's promisses.

Walder has a message to all entitled puffed nobles, fuck you all and the servitude that comes with it, he makes his own terms.
He is a bussines men at heart, if you wanna cross,, yoou have to pay!

[Nowy Tends]

57 minutes ago, Chancho said:

Walder has a message to all entitled puffed nobles, fuck you all and the servitude that comes with it, he makes his own terms.

And the message is “This is how you taint a House name for centuries, and get your kin killed in horrible ways”.

What an achievement!

[Chancho]

May his house burn, i don't care, they are no Walder "Kingsbane" Frey... the Messenger is there for all wise kings and rulers to take, ancient and proud die just the same. Respect your subjects...

[Kandrax]

4 hours ago, Nowy Tends said:

horrible ways”.

Hanging is among the least horrible deaths in the books, when you take in consideration Vargo's death, Lorch's death, burning people, Ramsay's hunts or antler men.

[Ylath's Snout]

15 minutes ago, Kandrax said:

Hanging is among the least horrible deaths in the books,

"Modern" hanging is "relatively" humane as the height of the fall and they way the noose is intended to snapp the neck.

Old school hanging meant hang from a rope for up to twenty minutes slowly getting strangled to death.

The maesters might have come up with something like "modern" but it's hard to be sure.

[Chancho]

I think you would go unconscious quick by any blood restrain bigger than 30 seconds or something like that. But must be terrible for this 30 seconds.

[The Sunland Lord]

It's surprising that Hoster didn't wipe the Freys out because of the "late Walder Frey" thing. Hoster burned something (?) that belonged to people who refused to fight on Robert's side. So it's out of character really.

The second most powerful man in any organization or society is the biggest ally or an enemy to the man in charge. So overall it would be wise to treat him with respect but keep an eye on him. Obviously Hoster failed at this 101 task. 

[Chancho]

Hey but he burned a crappy village and a crappy castle, that was also probably in the way too, and was a enemy not necessary neutral... Stannis teaches that to Davos, High Lords are pardonned the other folks lose thinger and heads.

[Anck Su Namun]

On 5/17/2018 at 10:44 AM, Widowmaker 811 said:

I find Walder Frey to be one of the more interesting minor characters.  He is more interesting than some major characters like Jon, Sansa, and Samwell, if I'm being honest.  What follows is just some general questions about Walder.  I want to read your opinion of this man.  

1. Can you provide an example of Walder being stingy? Being generous?  How do you think Walder compares to the average nobleman in terms of generosity?
2. If you were to treat Walder with courtesy and respect, do you think he could be trusted in business?  Say you were a nobleman who wanted to do business with the Freys and you treat them with respect, as opposed to what the Starks did, can you trust Walder Frey?
3. Was Fat Walda a suitable match for Roose Bolton?  
4. Do you consider it snobbery when Hoster refused to attend Walder's wedding?  
5. How does our author view the Freys, in your opinion?  
6. Finally, if you were Lord Walder, how would you deal with Robb's betrayal?  

• Walder for sure is interesting.  
• Generous - his part of the deal was generous, his family fought bravely for Robb and they didn't hold back, his gift of silver to the Boltons was rich.  Stingy and Mean - the food at the wedding could have been more fitting, the dishes could have been more lavish, the entertainment should have been more musical.
• Roose got to choose the girl.  He thought so.
• Hoster was insulting Walder.  I guess Hoster never thought in a million years that Walder will be in a position to pay him back.  
• He likes Walder.  He has fun writing Walder's chapters.  The man is witty.  
• That would depend on what Tywin Lannister asked of me.  I would do what I can to avoid losing my lands and castles.  I sure as hell don't want to suffer for Robb Stark.  

[Lord Lannister]

Given his blunt personality, if not for betraying Robb, he'd probably be one of the most popular minor characters in the series.

[Kandrax]

8 hours ago, The Sunland Lord said:

It's surprising that Hoster didn't wipe the Freys out because of the "late Walder Frey" thing

It would be hypocrital to wipe out the Freys and spare Darries and Mootons 

[Ylath's Snout]

5 hours ago, Anck Su Namun said:

Generous - his part of the deal was generous, his family fought bravely for Robb and they didn't hold back,

... he made some pretty huge demands of Robb. The Robb-Frey match blocks Robb from gaining any allies via a marriage-pact, that is a huge deal. Arya getting married to a Frey isn't as big a deal but it limmits Robb's options even more. Taking Olywar as a squier and the fostering seems just fine TBH. I honestly don't think he was being generous with that deal.

3 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

Given his blunt personality, if not for betraying Robb, he'd probably be one of the most popular minor characters in the series.

Sure, they way he values his whole family no matter if they are bastard or tureborn is very good and decent of him.