History Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 Were the starks always so honorable and dutiful or was eddard stark time as ward of john arryn what made im to have more honor that comon sence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hodorisfaclessman Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 1 hour ago, History said: Were the starks always so honorable and dutiful or was eddard stark time as ward of john arryn what made im to have more honor that comon sence? At one point they were clearly an agressive house to end up the norths rulers, we forget how intimidating the stark powerbase is given our pov of them! Generaly speaking given the norths harsh enviroment etc it seems a system of a mans word/honour being more important may have developed Not to mention a religion where you are watched at all times by the bushes and trees! Lol Ned personaly may have just been exceptionaly honourable too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moiraine Sedai Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 Eddard was honorable. Robb Stark and Jon Snow were not. Some members of the family had honor, some had none. I don't think Eddard picked up honor from the Arryns. He made a personal choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Suburbs Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 I can easily envision a time when the Starks were pricks and the Lannisters were the good guys. The Greyjoys look like pricks throughout history, however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ylath's Snout Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 3 minutes ago, John Suburbs said: I can easily envision a time when the Starks were pricks and the Lannisters were the good guys. Haven't the Stark killed of several cadet branches that got uppity? The Lannisport Lannisters aren't dead, so there is that at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Suburbs Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 10 minutes ago, Ylath's Snout said: Haven't the Stark killed of several cadet branches that got uppity? The Lannisport Lannisters aren't dead, so there is that at least. The only one I can think of is House Greystark. But House Karstark is still around, and there are supposedly some Stark descendants in White Harbor and Barrowton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Yozza Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 11 minutes ago, Ylath's Snout said: Haven't the Stark killed of several cadet branches that got uppity? The Lannisport Lannisters aren't dead, so there is that at least. The wiped out the Greystarks after they joined the Bolton's in a rebellion. I think that's the only case. Robb did execute Rickard Karstark but that's not quite the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ylath's Snout Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 13 minutes ago, John Suburbs said: The only one I can think of is House Greystark. But House Karstark is still around, and there are supposedly some Stark descendants in White Harbor and Barrowton. 8 minutes ago, Adam Yozza said: The wiped out the Greystarks after they joined the Bolton's in a rebellion. I think that's the only case. Robb did execute Rickard Karstark but that's not quite the same. Ahh my bad, still offing a whole house of relatives could be considered bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Yozza Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 7 minutes ago, Ylath's Snout said: Ahh my bad, still offing a whole house of relatives could be considered bad. If it was done arbitrarily or for a minor offence I'd agree. Hell I'd argue that what Tywin did to the Reyne's and Tarbeck's was overkill. But unless I'm very much mistaken, we haven't actually been told how they died out. Simply that five centuries after they were formed, they presumed to join the Bolton's in rebellion and at the very least no male Greystark's survived said rebellion. It could simply be that all the male Greystark's at the time were of an age to fight and died doing so. Alternatively it could have been that the Starks felt their betrayal was less forgivable than the Bolton's (because Greystarks were related and Bolton's weren't) and wiped them out deliberately but if that were the case then I feel like a bigger deal would have been made out of it in the series proper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ylath's Snout Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 5 minutes ago, Adam Yozza said: But unless I'm very much mistaken, we haven't actually been told how they died out. Simply that five centuries after they were formed, they presumed to join the Bolton's in rebellion and at the very least no male Greystark's survived said rebellion. It could simply be that all the male Greystark's at the time were of an age to fight and died doing so. Alternatively it could have been that the Starks felt their betrayal was less forgivable than the Bolton's (because Greystarks were related and Bolton's weren't) and wiped them out deliberately but if that were the case then I feel like a bigger deal would have been made out of it in the series proper. Seeing as they aren't around I'm inclined to think that they very pretty meticulous. Although "wiping out" could be done with marriages, adoption and taking the black. Are we gonna get a bunch of "X is/was a secret Greystark" theories now? 10 minutes ago, Adam Yozza said: If it was done arbitrarily or for a minor offence I'd agree. Hell I'd argue that what Tywin did to the Reyne's and Tarbeck's was overkill. Yups, killing everyone that wasn't a man of fighting age after they tried to surrender make me eye-roll when someone argues are Tywin really is a good guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
talvikorppi Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 I'm thinking that the North is such a harsh environment that really, really old concepts of honour - a man's word is his bond - were/still are held in high regard in the North, similarly the concept of guest right, which in the North can be a matter of life and death, to reciprocally give shelter from the elements even to "enemies". Guest right is sacred even in the south - that's why the Red Wedding sent such shockwaves even in the south, it was viewed as horror even by southron people. (Good luck, Freys! hahaha!) The southron, Andal concept of honour seems to be mixed up with a lot of "chivalry", that is, rationalising warfare, killing, explaining it away, (ask Sandor Clegane!) and Ned, being fostered in the Vale - grand central of Andal notions of high chivalric honour - may have picked up southron notions there. Catelyn certainly grew up with the Andal honour tradition, so their sons and daughters (and Jon Snow) learned it... It's almost like they, Jon, Sansa, Arya, Bran (and Rickon?) have to unlearn southron chivalric honour and return to their Stark forefathers' simpler and harsher honour concept. I don't know what exactly it is, but GRRM sure as seven hells tells us it's not the southron chivalric honour concept that has become corrupt. Why don't we ask Jaime? No character thinks about honour and the conficts inherent in the concept more than our shit-for-honour knight. GRRM very deliberately made it so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Light a wight tonight Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 Jaime Lannister: "Honor is a horse." Sandor Clegane: "A knight has no honor." The Kingsguard, on paper the most honorable guys around, stood around with their thumbs up their butts while Aerys tortured Rhaella. In the world GRRM has given us honor is much overrated and underpracticed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Topspin Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 3 hours ago, Light a wight tonight said: Jaime Lannister: "Honor is a horse." Sandor Clegane: "A knight has no honor." The Kingsguard, on paper the most honorable guys around, stood around with their thumbs up their butts while Aerys tortured Rhaella. In the world GRRM has given us honor is much overrated and underpracticed. I wouldn't say it's overrated and underpracticed. The word Honor is used too loosely. Oft times, people are arrogant, put too much stock and pride in family history, valor in battles, and call that honor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
talvikorppi Posted May 18, 2018 Share Posted May 18, 2018 39 minutes ago, Gabbie Roxas said: I wouldn't say it's overrated and underpracticed. The word Honor is used too loosely. Oft times, people are arrogant, put too much stock and pride in family history, valor in battles, and call that honor. So what is honour? (Besides Jaime's horse - BTW, he has two, named Honour and Glory by his young squire (hostage), and he keeps riding only Honour.) I think GRRM really wants us to think about the concept of honour and what it is and is it all good or might it have problematic aspects as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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