will the wildlings burn Shireen?

[Chancho]

So there is a showdown happening at castleblack, Wun Wun is out of control, the crows stab Jon "the pro-wildling commander", wildlings outnumber everyone else 5 to 1, they were defeated by Stannis and might feel very humiliated at everything that they have to do or let go to live the king's Peace, hardhome situation is hanging in there to show the indiference there is, i cannott see things not going chaotic and the watchers being overthrown is even a good thing in case jon gets revived, less problems and more flexibilty with vows and duties... 

But before we get there, the wildlings take over and revenge might be looming large on their minds, r'hllor was shoved at everyones throat, their king was burned in a horrific way and Shireen greyscale is a big problem it seems... So a bonfire with the likes of selyse, ser brus and shireen as the ultimate mockery revenge against the RED god...

Do anyone feel that this makes any sense?

[HoodedCrow]

Not impossible, though I thought it will be Melisandre and Selyse.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Agree not imposible but I think it will be Selyse & Mellisandre who do it. 

[Lord Varys]

Val would like to kill the unclean child, of course, but there is no indication she would like to burn her. She would more likely stab her to death or slit her throat.

But I don't think it will come to that.

At this point Melisandre has no reason to allow that anything bad happens to either Selyse or Shireen, nor is there any reason or motivation to sacrifice the child.

The issues after Jon's assassination are more likely to be between the wildlings and the NW, not so much between Selyse and the wildlings. In fact, Mel and Selyse and their people will likely be in the comfortable position to sit back, relax, and watch how the others kill each other if it comes to open violence - which is by no means clear considering that Marsh might be able to take control of all the wildling hostages. In addition, for a majority of the wildlings this whole thing was just a pact forced upon them. The death of Jon Snow is the perfect excuse they need to leave the Wall and migrate down south. They made a pact with Jon Snow, and with him dead they are no longer obliged to do anything to protect the Wall. One assumes the amount of men actually remaining at the Wall under those circumstances is pretty low. Any sane person would want to be in Dorne or the Reach when the Others finally attack the Wall.

Stannis will sacrifice his only child when he comes back. He is the only one capable of such an atrocity. Mel will urge him on, of course, but even she wouldn't suggest anything as heinous as this without good reason. Stannis never showed any real affection for his only child, and he has already revealed that he is considering murdering a close relative if the good of humanity (or his chance to win the throne) is at stake.

However, Shireen's murder will most likely mark the beginning of (fast) end of Stannis. There are things people should not do, and killing your own children is pretty much at the very top of that list. A king killing his only heir in a blood sacrifice is pretty much an admission of defeat on a symbolically level since a king without an heir is a king without a future, especially in a situation where he is surrounded by enemies.

There might be people supporting Stannis in that in the light of desperation, assuming they are all hard-pressed by the Others and hoping this is going to turn the tide, etc. But if it doesn't - which is very likely - then this will be the sign showing that Stannis cannot defeat the Others, and people supporting him at first will turn against him because of the shame and guilt being involved in such an atrocity.

[Lost Melnibonean]

10 hours ago, Chancho said:

So there is a showdown happening at castleblack, Wun Wun is out of control, the crows stab Jon "the pro-wildling commander", wildlings outnumber everyone else 5 to 1, they were defeated by Stannis and might feel very humiliated at everything that they have to do or let go to live the king's Peace, hardhome situation is hanging in there to show the indiference there is, i cannott see things not going chaotic and the watchers being overthrown is even a good thing in case jon gets revived, less problems and more flexibilty with vows and duties... 

But before we get there, the wildlings take over and revenge might be looming large on their minds, r'hllor was shoved at everyones throat, their king was burned in a horrific way and Shireen greyscale is a big problem it seems... So a bonfire with the likes of selyse, ser brus and shireen as the ultimate mockery revenge against the RED god...

Do anyone feel that this makes any sense?

As @HoodedCrow says...

9 hours ago, HoodedCrow said:

Not impossible, though I thought it will be Melisandre and Selyse.

The allusions to Shakespear's Julius Caesar are too strong to ignore...

Just as Wick Whittlestick barely grazed Jon's neck with the first dagger, Casca was the first to cut Ceaser with a glancing cut to the neck. Just as Caesar caught Casca by the arm, Jon caught Wick's wrist. Just as Wick retreated and put his arms up, Casca was frighted and shouted for help. (That Jon understood this to mean that Wick was denying involvement was very curious. I'm not sure what to make of that other than Jon might have been mistaken.) That Bowen Marsh wept and claimed to be doing it for the Watch clearly alluded to Brutus...

Quote

"Let's kill him boldly, but not wrathfully; Let's carve him as a dish fit for the gods, Not hew him as a carcass fit for hounds:"

Wm Shakespeare, Julius Caesar 

And Brutus expected his fellow Romans to be glad, going so far as to persuade his fellow conspirators to ignore Mark Antony. Given the strong allusion to the assassination of Julius Caesar I'm assuming that Bowen will expect his brothers to be glad. I don't think he has a plan.

And much like Brutus was forced to flee Rome in short order I think Bowen is in a very, very tight spot, because Tormund is set to play the role of Mark Antony. I would expect him to whip the wildings into a frenzy against Marsh and the other conspirators. 

That the Wildlings might go after Shireen is based on what Val said a out her, no? 

 

But that passage can be used as foreshadowing that her mother might agree to let Melisandre burn her...

Quote

At the top of the steps Davos heard a soft jingle of bells that could only herald Patchface. The princess's fool was waiting outside the maester's door for her like a faithful hound. Dough-soft and slump-shouldered, his broad face tattooed in a motley pattern of red and green squares, Patchface wore a helm made of a rack of deer antlers strapped to a tin bucket. A dozen bells hung from the tines and rang when he moved . . . which meant constantly, since the fool seldom stood still. He jingled and jangled his way everywhere he went; small wonder that Pylos had exiled him from Shireen's lessons. "Under the sea the old fish eat the young fish," the fool muttered at Davos. He bobbed his head, and his bells clanged and chimed and sang. "I know, I know, oh oh oh."

Davos V, Storm 54

Melisandre is old...

Quote

... Strange voices called to her from days long past.

...

... Melisandre had practiced her art for years beyond count, and she had paid the price.

Melisandre, Dance 31

Shireen is young...

Quote

Her name was Shireen. She would be ten on her next name day, and she was the saddest child that Maester Cressen had ever known.

Prologue, Clash

Melisandre wants king’s blood...

Quote

Melisandre moved closer. "Save them, sire. Let me wake the stone dragons. Three is three. Give me the boy."

...

... He turned back to Melisandre. "You swear there is no other way? Swear it on your life, for I promise, you shall die by inches if you lie."

... Melisandre went to him, her red lips parted, her ruby throbbing. "Give me this boy," she whispered, "and I will give you your kingdom."

"He can't," said Davos. "Edric Storm is gone."

Davos VI, Storm 63

Shireen has king’s blood, and she is a dead girl...

Quote

"If Stannis wins his war, Shireen will stand as heir to the Iron Throne."

"Then I pity your Seven Kingdoms."

"The maesters say greyscale is not—"

"The maesters may believe what they wish. Ask a woods witch if you would know the truth. The grey death sleeps, only to wake again. The child is not clean! "

"She seems a sweet girl. You cannot know—"

"I can. You know nothing, Jon Snow." Val seized his arm. "I want the monster out of there. Him and his wet nurses. You cannot leave them in that same tower as the dead girl."

Jon XI, Dance 53

Melisandre cannot burn Edric Storm, but she is going to burn Shireen with Selyse’s blessing, since they will both be desperate having seen Jon Snow betrayed and wounded or dead, and having come to believe that Ramsay has defeated and killed Stannis.

And the old fish will eat the young fish. Poor Shireen.

Davos is not there to help the girl. Stannis is gonna be pissed, and Melisandre is gonna end up like Serala, the Lace Serpent of Duskendale...

Quote

The queen's men might remain fervent followers of the Lord of Light, but the lesser folk of Dragonstone were drifting back to the gods they'd known all their lives. They said Stannis was ensorceled, that Melisandre had turned him away from the Seven to bow before some demon out of shadow, and . . . worst sin of all . . . that she and her god had failed him. And there were knights and lordlings who felt the same.

Davos V, Storm 54

Quote

"In Duskendale they love Lord Denys still, despite the woe he brought them. 'Tis Lady Serala that they blame, his Myrish wife. The Lace Serpent, she is called. ... The Lace Serpent filled her husband's ear with Myrish poison, they say, until Lord Denys rose against his king and took him captive. ...

... "Once Lord Denys lost his hostage, he opened his gates and ended his defiance rather than let Lord Tywin take the town. He bent the knee and begged for mercy, but the king was not of a forgiving mind. Lord Denys lost his head, as did his brothers and his sister, uncles, cousins, all the lordly Darklyns. The Lace Serpent was burned alive, poor woman, though her tongue was torn out first, and her female parts, with which it was said that she had enslaved her lord. Half of Duskendale will still tell you that Aerys was too kind to her."

Brienne II, Feast 9

Or not. 

[Lord Varys]

Stannis might be the end of Melisandre, but he will never be able to execute her. She foresees this kind of thing.

What I can see Mel not seeing is Stannis killing her because he sees her as a sacrifice. Stannis is Melisandre's hero. Her savior. The guy she would do everything for. She is not going to see him as a threat to her the way she sees a threat in everybody else.

And she would never kill his daughter without being sure the man wants her to do this. Just as she didn't kill Renly or Penrose without his consent. Melisandre is sly but she actually converts the people to her point of view, she doesn't go against them directly. She had a way to convince Stannis to allow her to kill Edric - she didn't just go behind his back to do it.

And it will be the same way with Shireen. Or perhaps Stannis himself is going to make the call, asking Mel whether they could all be saved if he were to sacrifice Shireen. He has reached a point where he actually believes sacrificing people can make a difference in the war he believes to be destined to fight.

Mel is not for a moment going to believe Stannis Baratheon is dead. He cannot be dead, he is Azor Ahai. If Jon isn't stupid enough to take a letter written by Ramsay at face value then Melisandre won't do that, either.

[The Fattest Leech]

47 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

The allusions to Shakespear's Julius Caesar are too strong to ignore...

Just as Wick Whittlestick barely grazed Jon's neck with the first dagger, Casca was the first to cut Ceaser with a glancing cut to the neck. Just as Caesar caught Casca by the arm, Jon caught Wick's wrist. Just as Wick retreated and put his arms up, Casca was frighted and shouted for help. (That Jon understood this to mean that Wick was denying involvement was very curious. I'm not sure what to make of that other than Jon might have been mistaken.) That Bowen Marsh wept and claimed to be doing it for the Watch clearly alluded to Brutus...

Quote

"Let's kill him boldly, but not wrathfully; Let's carve him as a dish fit for the gods, Not hew him as a carcass fit for hounds:"

Wm Shakespeare, Julius Caesar 

And Brutus expected his fellow Romans to be glad, going so far as to persuade his fellow conspirators to ignore Mark Antony. Given the strong allusion to the assassination of Julius Caesar I'm assuming that Bowen will expect his brothers to be glad. I don't think he has a plan.

And much like Brutus was forced to flee Rome in short order I think Bowen is in a very, very tight spot, because Tormund is set to play the role of Mark Antony. I would expect him to whip the wildings into a frenzy against Marsh and the other conspirators.

The comment about carving and it being fit for gods really reminds me of the fiery "hands" of R'hllor we keep reading about.

• "My lord is wise," Thoros told the others. "Brothers, a trial by battle is a holy thing. You heard me ask R'hllor to take a hand, and you saw his fiery finger snap Lord Beric's sword, just as he was about to make an end of it. The Lord of Light is not yet done with Joffrey's Hound, it would seem."
• The knight nodded. "The red temple buys them as children and makes them priests or temple prostitutes or warriors. Look there." He pointed at the steps, where a line of men in ornate armor and orange cloaks stood before the temple's doors, clasping spears with points like writhing flames. "The Fiery Hand. The Lord of Light's sacred soldiers, defenders of the temple."
• "Dalla died." Jon was saddened by that still. "Val is her sister. She and the babe did not require much capturing, Your Grace. You had put the wildlings to flight, and the skinchanger Mance had left to guard his queen went mad when the eagle burned." Jon looked at Melisandre. "Some say that was your doing."
  She smiled, her long copper hair tumbling across her face. "The Lord of Light has fiery talons, Jon Snow."

[Lost Melnibonean]

47 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Stannis might be the end of Melisandre, but he will never be able to execute her. She foresees this kind of thing.

What I can see Mel not seeing is Stannis killing her because he sees her as a sacrifice. Stannis is Melisandre's hero. Her savior. The guy she would do everything for. She is not going to see him as a threat to her the way she sees a threat in everybody else.

And she would never kill his daughter without being sure the man wants her to do this. Just as she didn't kill Renly or Penrose without his consent. Melisandre is sly but she actually converts the people to her point of view, she doesn't go against them directly. She had a way to convince Stannis to allow her to kill Edric - she didn't just go behind his back to do it.

And it will be the same way with Shireen. Or perhaps Stannis himself is going to make the call, asking Mel whether they could all be saved if he were to sacrifice Shireen. He has reached a point where he actually believes sacrificing people can make a difference in the war he believes to be destined to fight.

Mel is not for a moment going to believe Stannis Baratheon is dead. He cannot be dead, he is Azor Ahai. If Jon isn't stupid enough to take a letter written by Ramsay at face value then Melisandre won't do that, either.

No doubt... The plot is definitely set up for Stannis to sacrifice Shireen, but I don't think Stannis will do it. I am not saying you are wrong; I just think it will go the other way. As to Melisandre acting only on the order of Stannis, I am guessing that she will believe the contents of the so-called pink letter, assume that Stannis is dead, and persuade Sylese to burn his daughter to wake Stannis the dragon. Of course, the irony would be the unintended consequence of Stannis's ruse to defeat House Bolton. Or not. 

[Lucius Lovejoy]

@Chancho you paint a plausible picture but I am less inclined to believe the Wildlings would want to take their vengeance out on the Baratheon clan and find it more likely that they would take it out on the Watch and really just worry about getting further south, as was their plan all along.  If Shireen burns, I imagine it as Melisandre and Selyse's doing without Stannis' consent.  Like many have suggested before, it could be that the sacrifice of Shireen is done on reports of Stannis' death so as to bring him back to life, only Jon Snow is resurrected (not a theory I ascribe to).

Total crackpot here... what if a reanimated Jon Snow, possibly brought back by R'hllor, is the one who orders/executes the burning of Shireen?  Perhaps as a gift of thanksgiving for his life, or some other reason to defeat the others?  Don't take this and run with it, it is a total crap idea, just thinking of how Jon could make a total heel turn when he comes back (assuming he or his body is even dead, which I don't really believe is true).

[LynnS]

3 minutes ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

@Chancho you paint a plausible picture but I am less inclined to believe the Wildlings would want to take their vengeance out on the Baratheon clan and find it more likely that they would take it out on the Watch and really just worry about getting further south, as was their plan all along.  If Shireen burns, I imagine it as Melisandre and Selyse's doing without Stannis' consent.  Like many have suggested before, it could be that the sacrifice of Shireen is done on reports of Stannis' death so as to bring him back to life, only Jon Snow is resurrected (not a theory I ascribe to).

Total crackpot here... what if a reanimated Jon Snow, possibly brought back by R'hllor, is the one who orders/executes the burning of Shireen?  Perhaps as a gift of thanksgiving for his life, or some other reason to defeat the others?  Don't take this and run with it, it is a total crap idea, just thinking of how Jon could make a total heel turn when he comes back (assuming he or his body is even dead, which I don't really believe is true).

My crap idea is that Mel burns both Stannis and Shireen to resurrect Jon! LOL

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

No doubt... The plot is definitely set up for Stannis to sacrifice Shireen, but I don't think Stannis will do it. I am not saying you are wrong; I just think it will go the other way. As to Melisandre acting only on the order of Stannis, I am guessing that she will believe the contents of the so-called pink letter, assume that Stannis is dead, and persuade Sylese to burn his daughter to wake Stannis the dragon. Of course, the irony would be the unintended consequence of Stannis's ruse to defeat House Bolton. Or not. 

If that was the case then we would have to assume Shireen is going to burn rather early in TWoW - which is not very likely to happen considering GRRM has confirmed long ago on his NAB (when the show dealt with the thing we are talking about which was years after the completion of ADwD) that he has yet to write 'that scene' (i.e. Shireen's death scene).

Now, one could assume Shireen Baratheon's death scene is as important or heart-breaking for George R. R. Martin as murdering Robb and Catelyn Stark, causing him to write this at the very end like he did with the Red Wedding, but I actually don't think that. George's Shireen is little more than an extra, even Patches got more depth/background than she got.

It shouldn't be that hard to kill her. And if Stannis isn't involved then this would simply be a murder without a lot of effect - there are a lot of those in the story. Selyse isn't exactly a character we are supposed to find sympathetic either.

Any idea connecting Shireen's death with Jon's resurrection - basing it on the idea that it is done while people mistakenly believe Stannis was killed by Ramsay the way the Pink Letter implied - would have to take place very early in the novel. After all, we do know Stannis Baratheon has access to ravens, too. A raven giving real information on what transpired at Winterfell may arrive right now, while Jon Snow is bleeding in the snow. Or it might arrive mere hours or a day later.

The idea that Melisandre of Asshai is basing her decision to sacrifice the daughter of her king and savior - a girl that would actually be the Queen if we assumed Stannis Baratheon actually was dead - on a source as reliable as the Pink Letter is, quite frankly, ridiculous.

If her flames gave her a vision that Stannis was dead - fine, that could cause her to think something like that. But even then one would assume that she would believe that was a vision of a potential future that's never going to become true because she knows - *she knows!* - that Stannis Baratheon is Azor Ahai.

And if she had doubts she would first double-check them, by going down to Winterfell herself, or figuring out some magical means to get reliable knowledge that doesn't have to be interpreted.

And the idea that Mel can bring back people hundreds of leagues away who Ramsay may have already fed to his dogs or cut to pieces, dismembered, etc. is also pretty ridiculous if you ask me. Yes, this is a fantasy series, but bringing back people lacking a head is pretty much impossible in this world, too, as Beric and Thoros told Arya.

The very idea that Mel/anyone would jump on the idea to burn the queen so that we can bring back a king who might not even be dead - or not in the state to be brought back even if he was dead - is well beyond anything I can take seriously as an idea.

This doesn't mean Mel might not want to burn/sacrifice Shireen to bring back a Stannis who was killed with her close by/in her presence and with her controlling the corpse. This could make sense. But it doesn't with nobody having any good information. Perhaps if they brought back Stannis' rotting corpse from Winterfell. Although something like that should/might also shatter Mel's belief that Stannis was Azor Ahai.

I mean, no prophecy said the dude is supposed to die and be resurrected, right?

[Chancho]

All great points, but let's remember, Wun Wun is killing Sor Patrek, the Queen's men draw their steels... The wildlings might go bersek, when a riot gets to extreme is very hard to be honorable, rational or even differentiate the enemy, they are all southerns to the free folk, mob mentality will be Strong, everyone who is not a wildling might be fucked, THEY BURNED MANCE, their leader.

Everyone is going to pick one side fast, it's gonna be a save yourself moment and if the Queen and peers manage to lock themselves they can survive, but right there, right now, no one is safe.

[Lost Melnibonean]

44 minutes ago, Chancho said:

All great points, but let's remember, Wun Wun is killing Sor Patrek, the Queen's men draw their steels... The wildlings might go bersek, when a riot gets to extreme is very hard to be honorable, rational or even differentiate the enemy, they are all southerns to the free folk, mob mentality will be Strong, everyone who is not a wildling might be fucked, THEY BURNED MANCE, their leader.

Everyone is going to pick one side fast, it's gonna be a save yourself moment and if the Queen and peers manage to lock themselves they can survive, but right there, right now, no one is safe.

For sure, the scene must be chaotic, which means that events are unpredictable by definition. All we can do is guess at where the author intends to go with the plot. 

[Valyrian Lance]

23 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

For sure, the scene must be chaotic, which means that events are unpredictable by definition. All we can do is guess at where the author intends to go with the plot. 

It is very possible we do not read it live. While Mel could be a POV for it or possible Ghost Jon or something like that, it is also possible Jon is told what happened after he wakes or is brought back or whatever.

[Lord Varys]

People already know Mance isn't dead considering that Jon read the Pink Letter to all the men assembled in the Shieldhall.

[Chancho]

47 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

People already know Mance isn't dead considering that Jon read the Pink Letter to all the men assembled in the Shieldhall.

Tormund didn't understand that, nobody will since Jon didn't explained about the glamour of rattleshirt, he just red the letter... People saw him burning, that part will make every one more confused if anything and remind the incident, nobody will believe until they see, after all it's pretty weird and magic, even for freefolk standards . 

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Chancho said:

Tormund didn't understand that, nobody will since Jon didn't explained about the glamour of rattleshirt, he just red the letter... People saw him burning, that part will make every one more confused if anything and remind the incident, nobody will believe until they see, after all it's pretty weird and magic, even for freefolk standards . 

There is a pretty big time jump after Jon read the letter to Tormund during which they make their plan. One assumes Tormund aked about this whole Mance thing. In fact, it might be part of the reason why the wildlings want to go to Winterfell after Jon read the letter. He is there king, after all.

[Clegane'sPup]

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And she would never kill his daughter without being sure the man wants her to do this.

Agree.

In order for Stannis to give consent to burn is daughter and heir either Stannis arrives back at the Wall or Mel, Selyse & Shireen leave CB and go in search of Stannis. Unless you are suggesting Stannis gives consent by ravenmail.

Stannis was clear when he told Massey that should Stannis die Massey was to do what was necessary to seat seat his daughter on the throne.

As to the opening post ----will the wildlings burn Shireen ---- if Shireen dies --- yes.

 

 

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

2 hours ago, Valyrian Lance said:

It is very possible we do not read it live. While Mel could be a POV for it or possible Ghost Jon or something like that, it is also possible Jon is told what happened after he wakes or is brought back or whatever.

That would be very sad. I really, really want the Melisandre POV, picking up right after Jon's fourth blade. Similar to the way the George told the story of the Blackwater and the Red and Purple Weddings from different POVs. 

[Lord Varys]

8 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

That would be very sad. I really, really want the Melisandre POV, picking up right after Jon's fourth blade. Similar to the way the George told the story of the Blackwater and the Red and Purple Weddings from different POVs. 

It is pretty obvious that this is going to happen. After all, aside from the fun of getting Mel's thoughts while she was sitting alone in her room watching the flames, and giving us some little pieces on her relationship with Stannis and her memories of her early days, the rest of the chapter could have been from Jon's POV. There was no reason why the whole skulls scene and the subsequent talk with Jo and Mance should have been from her POV rather than Jon's - in fact, one could say that seeing the Rattleshirt transformation from Jon's POV might have made it much more powerful.

In that sense, it seems clear to me that Mel has been built up to take over as POV at the Wall after Jon's death.

The Shireen scene is not going to take place in the near future. And it sure as hell should have a proper POV. Although, of course, not Melisandre, considering she is likely going to be involved and thus not actually going to be all that emotionally invested in it.

It is more likely we'll get that from Jon's or even Davos' POV, after the former has been resurrected and the later returned from Skagos.