What would Robb do if Ned took the Black?

[Light a wight tonight]

15 hours ago, Anck Su Namun said:

So if Ned was allowed to take the black a peace could be possible between Stark and Lannister.  Such a peace will mean Robb goes to KL and kneels in front of Joffrey to swear fealty.  The wolves will be humbled but they may get to keep WF.  

History indicates that a Stark going to King's Landing to seek a reconciliation with the King is doomed. Joff is a treacherous as Aerys was, so that's a pretty sure thing.

[Ylath's Snout]

1 hour ago, Light a wight tonight said:

History indicates that a Stark going to King's Landing to seek a reconciliation with the King is doomed. Joff is a treacherous as Aerys was, so that's a pretty sure thing.

That would be a pretty big problem for Robb. The king asking for you to come to KL and swear fealty doesn't seem unreasonable but Joff is Joff.

Maybe he could swear fealty during the hostage exchange?

[Boarsbane]

21 minutes ago, Ylath's Snout said:

That would be a pretty big problem for Robb. The king asking for you to come to KL and swear fealty doesn't seem unreasonable but Joff is Joff.

Maybe he could swear fealty during to hostage exchange?

So long as Tywin is present to keep Joffrey in check it would probably be safe enough 

[Ylath's Snout]

7 minutes ago, Boarsbane said:

So long as Tywin is present to keep Joffrey in check it would probably be safe enough

"Also dear king, can you grampy.grams attend the meeting? To make sure you don't have a psychotic episode."

[Ylath's Snout]

(Sorry 'bout the double posting but I just had this though)

Assuming that Robb gets Ice and Sansa back what would he do long term?

If he could exact himself from the Frey match or never enter into it in the first place then he has some pretty interesting options. Asha, Margaery, Arianne and Dany are theoretically viable match for RObb at one point or another down the line.

[Light a wight tonight]

55 minutes ago, Ylath's Snout said:

That would be a pretty big problem for Robb. The king asking for you to come to KL and swear fealty doesn't seem unreasonable but Joff is Joff.

Maybe he could swear fealty during to hostage exchange?

They could do the exchange at The Twins.

[Ylath's Snout]

6 minutes ago, Light a wight tonight said:

They could do the exchange at The Twins.

That could work, although it might be a bit to deep into the Riverland for the Lannisters confort.

Also, hehe just noticed a spelling error in my post.

[Lady Jowana]

On 5/18/2018 at 4:41 PM, Angel Eyes said:

So if Ned had taken the Black, what would Robb do? Go back North with Jaime as captive and pick up his Frey bride? Would he try to ransom Jaime for Arya, Sansa and Ice? Would he still face trouble from Rickard Karstark demanding vengeance for the deaths of his sons Torrhen and Edd?

Would it be possible that he could pretend to go to the wall and take the black but in reality he could go north and gather an army to take down Joffery? but of course this can only happen if Sansa and Arya left with their father as well. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

4 hours ago, Light a wight tonight said:

History indicates that a Stark going to King's Landing to seek a reconciliation with the King is doomed. Joff is a treacherous as Aerys was, so that's a pretty sure thing.

Meh, that's a stretch. Joffery was only able to take Eddard's head through the fact he made a spectacle in front of the entire city, and Ned himself admitted to treason; it  would be disasterous for the reputation of the monarchy for Cersi(though legally she could) to have simply declared Joffery's order invalid. However in this instance the king would have publicly  promised mercy to the north for surrendering. Joffery would look like an oathbreaker if he had suddenly decided to slaughter Robb when he came to pledge fealty.  Joffery would recognize as such. Besides, it'd be nice to see this arrogant Stark grovel for forgiveness.  And Brandon and Rickon wished to seek Justice against the crown prince not Justice. 

[The Lord of the Crossing]

4 hours ago, Ylath's Snout said:

That would be a pretty big problem for Robb. The king asking for you to come to KL and swear fealty doesn't seem unreasonable but Joff is Joff.

Maybe he could swear fealty during the hostage exchange?

It is perfectly reasonable considering Robb rebelled in the first place.  Robb should put himself at the mercy of the monarch to make a public show of loyalty and submission to the king.  

[Corvo the Crow]

15 hours ago, Boarsbane said:

He could do all those things but it wouldn't go over very well for poor Sansa, though maybe he's willing to sacrifice her to spite the Lannisters. 

What is the point in agreeing to those demands if they are to keep Sansa though? Either Lannisters handover Sansa, Ice and any other Stark people like Jeyne in exchange for Ned going black or Ned doesn't agree to it or Robb doesn't hold true to it. You do not back down with 40 thousand men behind you when your enemy has fewer and is facing other, even more numerous, enemies beside you. Best the Lannisters can hope for is either hold on to nothing or betroth Myrcella to Robb and send her North if they want to keep Sansa.

Robb stands to gain much either way;

If he's married to Myrcella he has 4 realms allied to him, he can just wait for Stannis/Renly to take KL and get rid of Joff and Tom either violently or non violently, Sansa hopefully returns and once all the turmoil is over he strikes a decade later to claim his wife's/son's rights with more than half the realm.

If Sansa is sent back, well he is in open rebellion against Lannisters even with her hostage so he perhaps marries her to someone for an alliance, Willas is a candidate after Renly dies and he'll marry Margaery or he can betroth her to his namesake in exchange for the troops her aunt held back so far.

[Ylath's Snout]

28 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

If he's married to Myrcella he has 4 realms allied to him, he can just wait for Stannis/Renly to take KL and get rid of Joff and Tom either violently or non violently, Sansa hopefully returns and once all the turmoil is over he strikes a decade later to claim his wife's/son's rights with more than half the realm.

If Stannis wins Robb might have to follow through on that plan sonner. Stannis seems very sure that all of Cersei's kids are abomination and there is the whole "burning Godswoods and Septs"-thing. Not really a long term tenable situation for Robb.

[Varysblackfyre321]

2 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

What is the point in agreeing to those demands if they are to keep Sansa though?

She lives. And once Ned actually takes the black there can be talk of returning her to the north someday. 

And Robb has no reason to think Renly or Stannis will rebel. He has no reason not to take it;. Truth be told at this point it's not even up to Robb; its up to Cat, his legal guardian. 

[Ylath's Snout]

5 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Truth be told at this point it's not even up to Robb; its up to Cat, his legal guardian. 

Robb does not act as if Cat is his legal guardian. Seems like he is considered to have reached his majority by the time Ned goes south.

31 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

She lives. And once Ned actually takes the black there can be talk of returning her to the north someday. 

That is a problem, how do the Lannister ensure that Ned takes the Black in a timely manner? Holding of on the hostage exage for the whole time it takes to go from KL to the Wall isn't going to make either side happy.

 

[Boarsbane]

6 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

What is the point in agreeing to those demands if they are to keep Sansa though? Either Lannisters handover Sansa, Ice and any other Stark people like Jeyne in exchange for Ned going black or Ned doesn't agree to it or Robb doesn't hold true to it. You do not back down with 40 thousand men behind you when your enemy has fewer and is facing other, even more numerous, enemies beside you. Best the Lannisters can hope for is either hold on to nothing or betroth Myrcella to Robb and send her North if they want to keep Sansa.

Robb stands to gain much either way;

If he's married to Myrcella he has 4 realms allied to him, he can just wait for Stannis/Renly to take KL and get rid of Joff and Tom either violently or non violently, Sansa hopefully returns and once all the turmoil is over he strikes a decade later to claim his wife's/son's rights with more than half the realm.

If Sansa is sent back, well he is in open rebellion against Lannisters even with her hostage so he perhaps marries her to someone for an alliance, Willas is a candidate after Renly dies and he'll marry Margaery or he can betroth her to his namesake in exchange for the troops her aunt held back so far.

They aren't going to just take Ned's word and risk him doing exactly what you suggested in your previous post. The Lannister's have the leverage, Ned does what they want or Sansa suffers. We already know Ned will do whatever is demanded to protect her in the end. Because the truth is Joffrey is insane enough to kill her. If he were dealing with someone like Tywin, he could try to appeal to his senses or threaten him with the threat of Robb's armies, but that won't work on someone like Joff, he can't be reasoned with so Ned has to do as they say, there is no negotiations or reasoning. Maybe they can come to an agreement to release her after Ned has actually sworn his oath at the Watch and Robb has gone home, because knowing him and the oath he would not get involved anymore. Ned cares more about his children's safety than who sits the Iron Throne, he will order Robb and his army to go home, the Riverlands will either back down or be crushed by Tywin, and Sansa will likely remain a hostage until the war is over and the victor decides what to do with her.

[Varysblackfyre321]

3 hours ago, Ylath's Snout said:

Robb does not act as if Cat is his legal guardian. Seems like he is considered to have reached his majority by the time Ned goes south.

4 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Sure he does. He asks her flat out if he'd planned to send him back to winterfel rather than let him go to battle. He's 14 years old in AGOT. The age where he could be considered a legal adult is 16. 

 

3 hours ago, Ylath's Snout said:

That is a problem, how do the Lannister ensure that Ned takes the Black in a timely manner? Holding of on the hostage exage for the whole time it takes to go from KL to the Wall isn't going to make either side happy.

It'll be a few months. No one's going to die waiting. 

[Ylath's Snout]

24 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

It'll be a few months. No one's going to die waiting. 

Renly are Stannis are both plotting to overthrow the Lannister regime, Tywin and co has to suspect that something is up. Not to mention Joff "I shot people that own me money into a moat with a catapult" Waters is... Joff, Sansa is not safe in KL. That said moving her somewhere else might be a good compromise.

[Varysblackfyre321]

33 minutes ago, Ylath's Snout said:

Renly are Stannis are both plotting to overthrow the Lannister regime, Tywin and co has to suspect that something is up. 

And? In that time the north has more time to back either of these men in their eyes seeking to overthrow their nephew. 

33 minutes ago, Ylath's Snout said:

Not to mention Joff "I shot people that own me money into a moat with a catapult" Waters is... Joff,

You know without the whole taking Ned's points all of the negative interactions the Starks have had with Joffery personally have been fairly  childish-even Ned when Robert is lamenting over how he's worried about the boy, is pretty dubious of his friend's claim that he's as bad as Robert thinks he is.

And to be clear it'd be the queen regent,Cersi tasked with over seeing the care of Sansa; Joffery is still a minor thus no real power; hell even Joffery knows he has limits hench not executing Tyrion on the spot.

Sansa will not be killed so long as Ned fufills his end of the agreement.

 

[Ylath's Snout]

32 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

In that time the north has more time to back either of these men in their eyes seeking to overthrow their nephew. 

I mean that this is incentive for the Lannisters to get Northerners to declare neutrality or join them. They are working against the clock.

35 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

You know without the whole taking Ned's points all of the negative interactions the Starks have had with Joffery personally have been fairly  childish-even Ned when Robert is lamenting over how he's worried about the boy, is pretty dubious of his friend's claim that he's as bad as Robert thinks he is.

Ehh, going at Arya with sharp steel is pretty concerning, but yes most of Joffs bug-nuttery takes place later on.

35 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

And to be clear it'd be the queen regent,Cersi tasked with over seeing the care of Sansa; Joffery is still a minor thus no real power; hell even Joffery knows he has limits hench not executing Tyrion on the spot.

Cersei doesn't have full control over Joff. Ned getting chopped in was a spur of the moment thing from Joff. Sure Joff is constrained but he is still a wild-card in many ways.

[Corvo the Crow]

8 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

She lives. And once Ned actually takes the black there can be talk of returning her to the north someday. 

And Robb has no reason to think Renly or Stannis will rebel. He has no reason not to take it;. Truth be told at this point it's not even up to Robb; its up to Cat, his legal guardian. 

 

5 hours ago, Boarsbane said:

They aren't going to just take Ned's word and risk him doing exactly what you suggested in your previous post. The Lannister's have the leverage, Ned does what they want or Sansa suffers. We already know Ned will do whatever is demanded to protect her in the end. Because the truth is Joffrey is insane enough to kill her. If he were dealing with someone like Tywin, he could try to appeal to his senses or threaten him with the threat of Robb's armies, but that won't work on someone like Joff, he can't be reasoned with so Ned has to do as they say, there is no negotiations or reasoning. Maybe they can come to an agreement to release her after Ned has actually sworn his oath at the Watch and Robb has gone home, because knowing him and the oath he would not get involved anymore. Ned cares more about his children's safety than who sits the Iron Throne, he will order Robb and his army to go home, the Riverlands will either back down or be crushed by Tywin, and Sansa will likely remain a hostage until the war is over and the victor decides what to do with her.

You guys are forgetting though; Robb kept the war going and Sansa wasn't killed despite that.