Football - To Russia with Löw

[baxus]

4 minutes ago, mormont said:

Maybe not, but it's odd to hear that said of those teams: they are very much international in their makeup. It's not inconceivable that a top European team would have five African players.

It would be, if he had said it, which he very definitely did not.

What he did say was that he had evidence that his own fitness was good, and was not the reason for him not being selected. That's all. 

Had he done that, you'd be criticising him for involving them.

You're complaining about Toure being unfair in his comments, but you're not being fair to Toure either.

Any major club is "very much international". Still, I can't think of any top European team that would have 5 African players in their starting lineup on a regular basis. Not saying that African players are not good enough. It's just that traditionally top European clubs would rather go with South American than African players. That is changing, obviously, but it's still the case.

He did say that he had evidence that his own fitness was good and was not reason for him being selected and he couldn't understand why he didn't play. And yeah, let's not forget, he them implied that the only possible reason left is racism.

Hell no, I wouldn't criticize Toure for involving players who supposedly asked the same question. Had he done that, the story could be checked out in a heartbeat and either proven or thrown away as figment of Toure's imagination. As it is, he has avoided saying anything that could be used to either back his story up or disprove it. It's like that episode of South Park when Cartman says all kinds of crazy things about Wendy and then adds "or isn't she?" at the end of the last sentence and claims that he didn't say anything bad about her and he was only asking questions.

[ljkeane]

1 hour ago, mormont said:

Maybe not, but it's odd to hear that said of those teams: they are very much international in their makeup. It's not inconceivable that a top European team would have five African players.

It's not inconceivable but it'd be pretty unusual. There are plenty of African players in European football but that many that it's likely to see a team lining up with 5 African players. Leaving aside City out of the Premier League top 6 Arsenal, United and Chelsea have all got 1 African player you'd expect might start for them, Spurs have 2 and Liverpool currently have 2 but will probably have 3 next year.

ETA: Actually Arsenal have 2.

ETA2: Forgot about Matip for Liverpool too. So it could be 4 African players next year. Heh, this is going well. I'll probably think of some more later.

 

 

[A Horse Named Stranger]

1 hour ago, ljkeane said:

ETA2: Forgot about Matip for Liverpool too. So it could be 4 African players next year. Heh, this is going well. I'll probably think of some more later.

Although I am not sure Matip would count into non-naturalised group. Remember he has a German parent, a dual citizenship and was born and raised in Germany. He only picked up the Cameroonian passport as they offered him caps on a senior level at the beginning of his career.

[mormont]

2 hours ago, baxus said:

Any major club is "very much international". Still, I can't think of any top European team that would have 5 African players in their starting lineup on a regular basis. Not saying that African players are not good enough. It's just that traditionally top European clubs would rather go with South American than African players. That is changing, obviously, but it's still the case.

I think getting hung up on whether top clubs currently have five, four, or three African players in the first team is missing the wood for the trees. 

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He did say that he had evidence that his own fitness was good and was not reason for him being selected and he couldn't understand why he didn't play. 

Yes, that's what he said: but it's not what you initially said he'd said. You claimed he'd said something very different: you misrepresented him. And you've done it again:

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And yeah, let's not forget, he them implied that the only possible reason left is racism.

No. At most he implied that this was a possible reason. Not the only possible reason.

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Hell no, I wouldn't criticize Toure for involving players who supposedly asked the same question. Had he done that, the story could be checked out in a heartbeat and either proven or thrown away as figment of Toure's imagination.

Really? If Toure had dragged other, named players into this argument, you'd have been fine with that? And you seriously imagine that would have settled the whole issue beyond doubt, 'in a heartbeat'?

You're not kidding anyone but yourself there. 

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As it is, he has avoided saying anything that could be used to either back his story up or disprove it. It's like that episode of South Park when Cartman says all kinds of crazy things about Wendy and then adds "or isn't she?" at the end of the last sentence and claims that he didn't say anything bad about her and he was only asking questions.

It really isn't.

I'm not sure why you're so keen to so emphatically trash the mere suggestion of a possibility that there could possibly be any hint of racism in a team selection, particularly in a sport that to this day struggles with racism. It's a fact that Toure has experienced racism from fans in his career: and it's highly likely he has encountered it in dressing rooms too, if not from Guardiola then from others. And it's natural for players who believe in their ability to wonder if non-playing factors are playing a part in team selection, because, well, they often do. Put those two things together and I think Toure can be forgiven for asking the question. That's not to say I think there's a credible case against Guardiola here: but the enthusiasm with which some are rubbishing Toure does raise an eyebrow or two.

[Dolorous Gabe]

Yaya is outspoken and not always in a good way.

I think most of this is just bitterness about not being used as frequently as he thinks he should have been since Pep arrived at City. But anyone could see that he was incapable of keeping up with the pace anymore. That started a long time ago. He could get away with it for a while because he still has amazing technical ability and strength.

Even in Yaya's prime there were people who felt he didn't put enough effort into defensive duties and put his teammates under pressure because of it. It seems pretty clear to me that that is by far the likeliest reason Pep wouldn't be keen on using him too often. Pep has always preferred quick-minded technical players who put in the team effort required in his system.

I think it is likely pettiness on Yaya's part (a trait he is often associated with) that has led to these comments. Same as his petty reaction to Aubameyang winning African PotY a couple years ago. He has been an extraordinary footballer but he is incredibly petty.

[BigFatCoward]

3 hours ago, mormont said:

but the enthusiasm with which some are rubbishing Toure does raise an eyebrow or two.

I have no idea whether pep is racist or not. But its a big label to imply without any specific information. Also yaya is clearly a prick. When you have someone as whiney as yaya against someone who comes across as pretty decent like pep, it's easy to decide who you believe, especially when he offers absolutely no evidence whatsoever.

[Winterfell is Burning]

I don't see any indication of Pep being a racist. He used Touré a lot in his first season in Barça, it's just that Busquets turned out to be an even better fit for the club. At the same time there, Keita was pretty much the 12th man, and he was a player that Guardiola himself bought.

Also, most big clubs today seem to be avoiding signing African players, but not because of racism, but rather due to the fact that the African Cup of Nations forces them out of the team for a month in the middle of the season every two seasons.

[Yukle]

I think it has been too long since I boasted that Australia has qualified for the past 4 World Cups. Italy, Chile and the USA have qualified for the past 0.

[baxus]

14 hours ago, BigFatCoward said:

I have no idea whether pep is racist or not. But its a big label to imply without any specific information. Also yaya is clearly a prick. When you have someone as whiney as yaya against someone who comes across as pretty decent like pep, it's easy to decide who you believe, especially when he offers absolutely no evidence whatsoever.

I agree with this 100%.

But let's not burst @mormont's bubble that anyone who calls bullshit on unsubstantiated racism claims is actually am undercover KKK grand wizard.  

[mormont]

15 hours ago, BigFatCoward said:

I have no idea whether pep is racist or not. But its a big label to imply without any specific information.

It's also not a label Toure actually uses, to be fair. And he does have specific information and evidence: about his own case. Now, is that evidence sufficient to stand up the charge? Maybe not. But again, given that Toure has unquestionably experienced racism, given that racism is often subtle and not overt, given the game's continuing problems with racism, I think that if we are to say that we feel this particular charge is not proven, we should do so with due respect for all those factors instead of dismissively sneering at the very idea.

1 hour ago, baxus said:

I agree with this 100%.

But let's not burst @mormont's bubble that anyone who calls bullshit on unsubstantiated racism claims is actually am undercover KKK grand wizard.  

Case in point.

Since we're on politics, the Argentina-Israel friendly was called off last night after some unrest from the players, particularly Messi:

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2018/jun/05/argentina-friendly-israel-jerusalem-cancelled-lionel-messi

It's been suggested that Messi offered to pay any expenses incurred as a result of the cancellation out of his own pocket.

[Consigliere]

11 hours ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

Also, most big clubs today seem to be avoiding signing African players, but not because of racism, but rather due to the fact that the African Cup of Nations forces them out of the team for a month in the middle of the season every two seasons.

This shouldn't be an issue anymore since CAF have moved the tournament to June/July from 2019 onwards. 

[Consigliere]

So that's Fred and Dalot in the bag. I hope we are in the market for a LB as well.

[Mark Antony]

Liverpool’s journos tweeting that Liverpool are interested in signing Shaqiri for 12 mil. I mean attacking depth is our biggest need but he seems like a bit of a diva attitude wise.  

[Mark Antony]

I’d be pretty pissed off if he was an alternative to Fekir. Think we would still need one natural winger anyway even if Liverpool do get Fekir so hopefully these two transfers wouldn’t effect eachother. 

[Consigliere]

Shaqiri is not a bad option especially for a modest 12 million. He will obviously have to be prepared to play second fiddle to Salah. For the other wing, Liverpool have Woodburn. I understand that he's had injury trouble this past season but he looks like he has bags of potential from the little I've seen of him. Deserves to be given a shot as backup to Mane imo rather than the club making another signing and pushing him further down the pecking order. 

[polishgenius]

Demonstrating to Lyon that there are other fish in the sea by making eyes at a player who isn't really a credible alternative for Fekir in any reasonable way would be a weird thing to do. I'd suspect he's more likely to be being eyed as backup for the wide areas as y'all are sayig but if it is true (and heck, even if it isn't) it might highlight the one big problem Liverpool have had in transfers the last few years, which is that if plan A doesn't come off they never really seem to have a credible plan B. I think Fekir's great but if Liverpool think they need an attacking mid and haven't picked out anyone else to chase they're doing it wrong.

 

[Iskaral Pust]

20 minutes ago, Consigliere said:

For the other wing, Liverpool have Woodburn. I understand that he's had injury trouble this past season but he looks like he has bags of potential from the little I've seen of him. Deserves to be given a shot as backup to Mane imo rather than the club making another signing and pushing him further down the pecking order. 

Woodburn has looked great at U-23 level, and in a couple of senior games for Wales, but has no real experience at the senior level for Liverpool.  And it was noticeable that even prior to his recent injury he wasn’t getting called on when our front three could have used a break.  I’d like to see him develop into the team but so far it looks like we’re seeking external options to back up Mane and Salah.  It suggests there’s a big gap for Woodburn to bridge between himself and Mane, so perhaps he needs a development loan in the meantime.

Even more than Woodburn, Harry Wilson could be a possible back-up after he did very well on loan at Hull in the past six months.  He has been playing at a more competitive level than Woodburn.  But there is still the same question of whether it’s too much of a drop off in quality from our starters. 

[BigFatCoward]

7 hours ago, mormont said:

given that Toure has unquestionably experienced racism

In his life, or from Pep? 

[A Horse Named Stranger]

Ok, since I know @Consigliere is interested in that sort of thing. In its print edition the Kicker published a list of the clubs from the Bundesliga and Bundesliga 2, and how much money they received from TV rights (domestically and internationnaly combined) for the past season.

Bundesliga

1. Bayern 96.296m €

2. Dortmund 88.984m €

3. Schalke 78.869m €

4. Leverkusen 76.869m €

5. Gladbach 68.959m €

6. Wolfsburg 64.806m €

7. Hoffenheim 55.162m €

8. Berlin 54.425m €

9. Main 50.448m €

10. Köln 49.052m €

11. Augsburg 47.789m €

12. Bremen 47.194m €

13. Frankfurt 44.726m €

14. Freiburg 41.454m €

15. Stuttgart 40.189m €

16. H$V 39.711m €

17. Hannover 38.453m €

18. Leipzig 29.278m €

So there was quite a gulf between Bayern and Leipzig in terms of money received from the TV pool.

Let's check Bundesliga 2

1. Ingolstadt 17.075m €

2. Darmstadt 15.792m €

3. Nürnberg 15.283m €

4. Braunschweig 14.627m €

5. Union Berlin 12.933m €

6. Fürth 12.368m €

7. Kaiserslautern 12.164m €

8. St. Pauli 12.016m €

9. 10.698m €

10.Düsseldorf 9.769m €

11. Dreseden 8.689m €

12. Bielefeld 8.8620m €

13. Sandhausen 8.609m €

14. Heidenheim 8.501m €

15. Duisburg 8.279m €

16. Erzgebirge Aue 7.966m €

17. Regensburg 7.199m €

18. Kiel 7.061m €

Kiel who lost their promotion play off game against Wolfsburg just received a puny 7m € from the TV pool, compared to Wolfsburg's 64m. So that's one of the reasons why the Bundesliga clubs are usually heavy favorites in those play off games, and more importantly why Köln and the H$V are heavy favorites to win the promotion next season.

Furthermore the Kicker made an estimate of how much money the Bundesliga 2 teams will get from the tv pool next season (in € obviously).

1. Köln 25.1m

2. H$V 21.7m

3. Ingolstadt 18.5m

4. Darmstadt 16.0m

5. Union 14.3m

6. Bochum 13.6m

7. St. Pauli 12.1m

8. Heidenheim 10.9m

9. Fürth 10.8m

10. Bielefeld 10.6m

11. Sandhausen 10.4m

12. Dresden 9.0m

13.Duisburg 8.7m

14. Kiel 8.6m

15. Regensburg 8.3m

16. Paderborn 8.0m

17. Aue 7.9m

18. Magedeburg 7.2m

[Consigliere]

2 hours ago, Iskaral Pust said:

Woodburn has looked great at U-23 level, and in a couple of senior games for Wales, but has no real experience at the senior level for Liverpool.  And it was noticeable that even prior to his recent injury he wasn’t getting called on when our front three could have used a break.  I’d like to see him develop into the team but so far it looks like we’re seeking external options to back up Mane and Salah.  It suggests there’s a big gap for Woodburn to bridge between himself and Mane, so perhaps he needs a development loan in the meantime.

Even more than Woodburn, Harry Wilson could be a possible back-up after he did very well on loan at Hull in the past six months.  He has been playing at a more competitive level than Woodburn.  But there is still the same question of whether it’s too much of a drop off in quality from our starters. 

Apart from Shaqiri, who else are Liverpool rumoured to be looking at in terms of backup on the wings? Shaqiri prefers to play on the right so he can cut in on his left foot and would be backup for Salah. Fekir isn't all that effective on the wings and his best position is at CAM. He's also played a fair amount at CF as well but only a handful of games on the wings. The Lemar links from last year seem to have gone cold as well and the latest news is that Atleti are in talks with Monaco for Lemar.

It seems that Klopp might be looking for a backup for Salah and use Woodburn and/or Wilson (haven't seen him play) as backups on the left. The problem of course is that Liverpool face the same problem as Spurs with regards to a backup for Kane. The Liverpool front 3 work so well together that the backups either need to be versatile players able to play multiple positions or be prepared to spend most of the season on the bench. This could be a problem (as we saw with Jannsen and now Llorente for Spurs) where these players don't play much competitive football over the course of the season and thus lack a bit of match sharpness when they have to step up.