Ned wasn’t a true Stark

[Canon Claude]

The more I look at the evidence, the clearer it is to me that Ned Stark was an outlier in his family, and the fall of House Stark is on his and his father’s conscience.

Rickard’s southron ambitions started a dangerous precedent by getting involved where the Starks didn’t need to be involved. Lady Dustin had it right when she spoke dismissively of Rickard’s actions and the southron Maesters. And this led him fostering his son Eddard to Jon Arryn in the Vale. 

Eddard is the quiet wolf, to be sure, but he’s been imbibed with the Vale’s inflated sense of honour to the point of crippling him. It’s less obvious in the North, because his honour gives him a slight advantage in making the straightforward Northern lords love him (except for Roose Bolton and Barbrey Dustin, obviously). In the south, meanwhile, Eddard is utterly inept to play the game of thrones because of his half-Northern half-Vale upbringing. 

There’s a reason why his children got Direwolves and not Eddard. He isn’t truly a wolf of the North, and his influence on his children causes the Starks to lose the North. Robb inherits Ned’s sense of honour and marries Jeyne Westerling, ignoring the warning of his direwolf when he rises to the Freys. He is told by Catelyn to trust the wolf part of him, which is what helped him be so successful in war. Robb doesn’t take the advice and it gets him massacred. Meanwhile, Ned’s fostering of his hostage Theon Greyjoy leads to the betrayal of his two younger sons and the eventual burning of Winterfell. His eldest daughter is not at all a wolf, calling her direwolf Lady and getting her killed when she betrays her pack for a lion she’s got her eye on. This leads the only true Starks, Jon and Arya, to become lost from their pack, forced to survive as either a lone wolf or in an unfamiliar setting with an untrustworthy pack (Jon is a bit of an outlier himself because he was too farsighted and ahead of his time by making common practice with the Wildlings against the Others, so it wasn’t his southron roots which brought about his demise as much as the stubbornness and narrow mindedness of his treacherous allies).

The true nature of the Starks isn’t really honour, is the savagery of the wolf. They are pack animals, true, and they’re not liars or deceivers, but they aren’t truly honourable. Theon the Hungry Wolf, Artos Stark, so many fierce and cruel men have been the Kings of Winter, and they did so for 8000 years before Ned and Rickard both set things in motion to bring about the Starks’ downfall and near destruction. The only hope is that Rickon will be raised like the Hungry Wolf on Skagos, Arya reunites with her wolf pack, and Jon is reborn as more wolflike than he was ready to be before he got stabbed.

[Stormking902]

Benjen Stark wasn't raised in the Vale and he seems just as honorable as Ned which leaves me to believe Rickard was an honorable man as well, some proof of this is when Aerys charges him for treason he asks for a trial by combat in which he is willing to do combat himself not call upon his ace swordsman son (Brandon) or another great sword from the North. 

[Ylath's Snout]

Are you sure Ned isn't a secret Greystark too?

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Who says all members of a family have to think and act the same way? Not having the "wolf blood" doesn't make Ned any less a Stark than Brandon or Lyanna were. He's just the other side of the coin from them is all. And being fostered in the Vale did not fundamentally change who he was, as he wouldn't have gone to the Eyrie until he was 6-8 years old, by which time the foundations of his personality would have been set.

Remember that while Brandon and Lyanna could be termed rather hot, the old Kings of Winter were cold. Ned is not hot, but he's nt completely cold either. He's somewhere in the middle, a balance perhaps between the hard men of the Age of Heroes and the hormonally and emotionally led wolf-blood Starks.

[Darth Sidious]

6 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

The more I look at the evidence, the clearer it is to me that Ned Stark was an outlier in his family, and the fall of House Stark is on his and his father’s conscience.

Rickard’s southron ambitions started a dangerous precedent by getting involved where the Starks didn’t need to be involved. Lady Dustin had it right when she spoke dismissively of Rickard’s actions and the southron Maesters. And this led him fostering his son Eddard to Jon Arryn in the Vale. 

Eddard is the quiet wolf, to be sure, but he’s been imbibed with the Vale’s inflated sense of honour to the point of crippling him. It’s less obvious in the North, because his honour gives him a slight advantage in making the straightforward Northern lords love him (except for Roose Bolton and Barbrey Dustin, obviously). In the south, meanwhile, Eddard is utterly inept to play the game of thrones because of his half-Northern half-Vale upbringing. 

There’s a reason why his children got Direwolves and not Eddard. He isn’t truly a wolf of the North, and his influence on his children causes the Starks to lose the North. Robb inherits Ned’s sense of honour and marries Jeyne Westerling, ignoring the warning of his direwolf when he rises to the Freys. He is told by Catelyn to trust the wolf part of him, which is what helped him be so successful in war. Robb doesn’t take the advice and it gets him massacred. Meanwhile, Ned’s fostering of his hostage Theon Greyjoy leads to the betrayal of his two younger sons and the eventual burning of Winterfell. His eldest daughter is not at all a wolf, calling her direwolf Lady and getting her killed when she betrays her pack for a lion she’s got her eye on. This leads the only true Starks, Jon and Arya, to become lost from their pack, forced to survive as either a lone wolf or in an unfamiliar setting with an untrustworthy pack (Jon is a bit of an outlier himself because he was too farsighted and ahead of his time by making common practice with the Wildlings against the Others, so it wasn’t his southron roots which brought about his demise as much as the stubbornness and narrow mindedness of his treacherous allies).

The true nature of the Starks isn’t really honour, is the savagery of the wolf. They are pack animals, true, and they’re not liars or deceivers, but they aren’t truly honourable. Theon the Hungry Wolf, Artos Stark, so many fierce and cruel men have been the Kings of Winter, and they did so for 8000 years before Ned and Rickard both set things in motion to bring about the Starks’ downfall and near destruction. The only hope is that Rickon will be raised like the Hungry Wolf on Skagos, Arya reunites with her wolf pack, and Jon is reborn as more wolflike than he was ready to be before he got stabbed.

I believe Rickard Stark was trying to overthrow the rightful rulers of Westeros, the Targaryens.  That was the ultimate goal of his Southron Ambitions.  Anyway, onto to the question of Ned being an outlier.  Well, Ned was a decent guy.  We have little to go on whether that decency was shared by the previous generations of Starks.  

In the pack, there is no such thing as morals.  The concept of murder does not exists.  Wolves are savages, pack hunters.  They are not nice animals.  I am glad that you at least see the savagery in Jon and Arya.  Although, I myself do not see that as an admirable trait and I dislike Jon and Arya.  Jon is not honorable.  His desertion to help his pack, instead of sticking to his duties and honoring his vows is proof.  Further proof, he betrayed his duties to the realm, to the wall, to help a member of his pack get away from her husband.  So yeah, they are not to be trusted.  Lest we forget, Jon betrayed the wildlings too.  I will say this to you, Canon Claude, that in Martin's letter, the savagery of the direwolves saved Catelyn and the girls.  In my opinion, some of the Starks will die and live on as direwolves.  They will truly become a pack.  Whoever leads that pack of wolves will end up being the true king of winter and reign as the alpha dog for at least some of the long night.  In short, this alpha will spend his days pissing on the biggest weirwood trees in the north.  At least until the climate shifts.  

I see the song of ice and fire as truly the battle between the two climate extremes but also the battle between Targaryen and Stark.  Aegon will probably rule in the south for a while.  At least until the real dragon finishes her business in Essos and makes her arrival to take back her father's lands.  Aegon will try but be unable to conquer the north.  Yeah, the Boltons will fall to the wildlings led by Mance Rayder and the north will finally get their independence.  Aegon will try to bring it back into the fold, but without dragons and the combination of The Neck and the inhospitable climate, he will not be able to advance in the north. 

(I know Mance looks helpless right now and I don't like the guy, but I have to admit he's the most capable leader in the north right now.  Probably the most capable leader in the west and he is too damn dangerous for Ramsay to toy with.  I think this is Ramsay's big mistake, toying with Mance.)

Claude, one more thing.  I do not think Robb is honorable.  He picks and chooses his honor.  Honorable would have been keeping his oath to Walder Frey.  Other than that, I thank you for at least seeing the savagery in the Starks.  

[Nowy Tends]

8 minutes ago, Agent Orange said:

Other than that, I thank you for at least seeing the savagery in the Starks.  

This is activism (for a reason that completely escapes me), not debate. 

and "if" the Starks are "savages", what about the little girl who wants to burn half of the known world with her dragons and kill the survivors with an army of stone age rapists?

[The Ned's Little Girl]

I don't believe there is any such thing as a "true Stark". Nor is there any such thing as true Targaryen, true Lannister, true knight or true king. Or "true anything", really.

That's one of the things that I believe this story is about: that such ideas are meaningless nonsense.

[Wolf's Bane]

Harsh lands make for harsh people.  Civilization may fall to the savages because of their lack of unity and too much fighting among the families.  

[Nowy Tends]

1 hour ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

I don't believe there is any such thing as a "true Stark". Nor is there any such thing as true Targaryen, true Lannister, true knight or true king. Or "true anything", really.

That's one of the things that I believe this story is about: that such ideas are meaningless nonsense.

[Danelle]

13 hours ago, Stormking902 said:

Benjen Stark wasn't raised in the Vale and he seems just as honorable as Ned which leaves me to believe Rickard was an honorable man as well, some proof of this is when Aerys charges him for treason he asks for a trial by combat in which he is willing to do combat himself not call upon his ace swordsman son (Brandon) or another great sword from the North. 

While I agree with your point, I don't know whether he could have called for Brandon, since he was a prisoner. Given the circumstances Rickard acted like a responsible person and Head of a House and tried to deal with the matter. But yeah, he could have asked any of the Lords in the North for help. 

As for Benjen, he is not only honourable, but he is polite, funny and kind. The only thing that set Ned apart from his siblings was his introvert personality. All the Stark kids seemed to be quite outgoing and cheerful, while Ned was shy. But there is nothing wrong with that.

 

In any case Martin enjoys providing the reader with family traits and then changing our perception about the family by introducing a family member with a different personality.

If Ned is not a real Stark, then

 

• Tommen is not a real Lannister, because he is innocent and kind
• Tywin is not a real Lannister because he is stern and never laughs (seriously almost every Lannister has a wicked sense of humour)
• Asha is not a real Greyjoy since she does seem to be sensible and wants peace
• Rodrik the Reader is not a real Ironborn because he is mild and enjoys reading (even though he directly disputes Euron's claim of visiting Valyria in front of his men)
• Stannis is not a real Baratheon, since he lacks the charismatic personality of his siblings

 

 

[Son of Man]

7 hours ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

I don't believe there is any such thing as a "true Stark". Nor is there any such thing as true Targaryen, true Lannister, true knight or true king. Or "true anything", really.

That's one of the things that I believe this story is about: that such ideas are meaningless nonsense.

They're individuals.  

[Stormking902]

There was also Rickard Stark who was a king of winter who they called the laughing wolf which implies he wasn't so "COLD" and obviously enjoyed a good laugh. 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

20 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

Rickard’s southron ambitions started a dangerous precedent by getting involved where the Starks didn’t need to be involved. Lady Dustin had it right when she spoke dismissively of Rickard’s actions and the southron Maesters. And this led him fostering his son Eddard to Jon Arryn in the Vale. 

I don't understand how everyone ran with this idea of southron ambitions on the word of one person. So Rickard was planning to overthrow the Targaryen dynasty before Duskendale/during the year that Duskendale happened? This has never made any sense to me.

[Springwatch]

Ned was the ultra-Stark. There's nothing hot about winter.

I think honour is supposed to be a sort of cold virtue, like purity, like innocence - beautiful things, but not life-affirming.

[OneEyed-Aegon]

He is a Stark!

[goldenmaps]

5 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

I don't understand how everyone ran with this idea of southron ambitions on the word of one person. So Rickard was planning to overthrow the Targaryen dynasty before Duskendale/during the year that Duskendale happened? This has never made any sense to me.

I actually think that Lady Dustin wanted to have the powerful position of being the Lady of Winterfell and she didn't get it.  And maybe her family was grasping for power.  It seemed that Lady Dustin was pulling a Jeyne Westerling on Brandon except Brandon honored the marriage alliance with the Tullys.  And she expected to be married to Ned except Ned kept the same arrangement with the Tullys. 

 I don't think that Rickard had southron ambitions.  Considering that Winter can be harshest in the North maybe making friends with the west of the seven Kingdoms is not a bad idea.  If the North made some sort of alliance or friendship with the Reach that might help with food in the Wintertime.  I see Lady Dustin as being bitter about not getting the handsome, powerful lord as her husband.  Rickard could have made a northern marriage for Brandon but it could be from another Northern house and she will probably still be bitter.

 

[867-5309]

20 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Who says all members of a family have to think and act the same way? Not having the "wolf blood" doesn't make Ned any less a Stark than Brandon or Lyanna were. He's just the other side of the coin from them is all. And being fostered in the Vale did not fundamentally change who he was, as he wouldn't have gone to the Eyrie until he was 6-8 years old, by which time the foundations of his personality would have been set.

Remember that while Brandon and Lyanna could be termed rather hot, the old Kings of Winter were cold. Ned is not hot, but he's nt completely cold either. He's somewhere in the middle, a balance perhaps between the hard men of the Age of Heroes and the hormonally and emotionally led wolf-blood Starks.

The old Kings of Winter were of the aggressive and savage persuasion.  That's how the Starks conquered the north and got rid of their rivals.  They fought and then slaughtered the Warg king's family, killed all of the boys, and took his daughters for their own use.  Taking daughters of the vanquished is what they do and it is not any different from what the Boltons did with fake Arya.  

The OP is mostly correct, Imo.  Where I disagree, being more savage would not have helped the Starks in the south.  A savage may attack The Twins instead of making that deal with Walder.  That savage would have lost the rebellion right then because the lions would come in behind to finish them off.  I am also of the opinion that all of these families have savages in their ranks.  What the Lannisters did to the Reynes, that is savage as well.  What may separate the Starks is their willingness to get their hands dirty.  The Lannisters will order the deed and the Starks will do the deed.  Though Jaime is an exception because he has no qualms with doing his own violence.   My reply to the op is this, the long night is coming, the comforts of government and rule of law will end, and those who can do their own dirty work, from hunting and dressing their own game, to defending themselves, will have the advantage.  Tywin, Cersei, Walder, sansa, and Mace better have people with them who can hunt, dress game, fight, and defend them.  Their clean ways works when the social system is intact.  Savage to me doesn't necessarily mean better or worse.  It's just being unpolished and uncouth.  It doesn't mean more or less violent.  Clean doesn't mean better and less violent, it just means more removed from doing the actual work and having someone else do it for you.

[Ylath's Snout]

12 minutes ago, goldenmaps said:

I don't think that Rickard had southron ambitions.  Considering that Winter can be harshest in the North maybe making friends with the west of the seven Kingdoms is not a bad idea.  If the North made some sort of alliance or friendship with the Reach that might help with food in the Wintertime.

Yes, southern matches aren't the same thing as declaring open rebelion, despite what I have seen some people say.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

Ned was a Stark through and through . The fall of house Stark was caused by miscalculations , his naivety about how things work in KL , His lack of a power base in KL . The reasons why Barbrey Dustin and Roose Bolton hated the Starks is because they were not one .

[Ylath's Snout]

11 minutes ago, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

The fall of house Stark was caused by miscalculations , his naivety about how things work in KL , His lack of a power base in KL .

Yeah, Robert really shouldn't have picked him as a hand. Ned lacked the skill-set to function in KL and the whole situation was in a really bad state by the time he arrived.