Heresy 209 Of Ice and of Fire

[Black Crow]

Coldhands, like the Russian, is an enigma and as such his back-story may not be important, but the manner of his raising could be important.

Beric and then Catelyn were resurrected by Fire breathed into their dead bodies - they are literally animated by Fire.

Conversely the blue-eyed wights are seemingly animated by cold air, which I suggest is exactly the same process, but what makes Coldhands different is that he appears to have been a skinchanger/warg in life. 

[Black Crow]

5 hours ago, Matthew. said:

As an addition to my post above, Coldhands is also said to have the "cold smell:"

Bran I, ADWD

Which I would relate to the other passages in which the so called cold smell is raised.


With the latter two, I might suggest that these respective locations stink of the Others' magic (or, more straightforwardly, it's just a foreshadowing device); either way, I think it suggests a relationship between the magic that animates CH and the magic that animates the wights.

 

While we don't have his story, the distinctive cold smell firmly places him on the Ice side rather than the Fire - and also emphasises my earlier point that there is something more to Ice than the blue-eyed lot

[Melifeather]

Cold does have a smell. I remember it well as a child. Its sort of stale smelling, but it clings to peoples clothing after they've been outside for awhile.

While he was Lord Commander, Bloodraven took a group of men on a ranging and then never returned to the Wall...just like Jeor Mormont. And just like some of Mormont's men became wights - I'm looking at you, Small Paul - so too could have Bloodraven's detachment. That he's in the cave and there are wights just outside the cave - we cannot rule out the possibility that these wights could be men from that lost detachment. Bloodraven and Coldhands may have made it to the safety of the cave, or were dragged inside.

[Brad Stark]

Back to the shadows.  Could there be some connections between Ashai and places like the Shadow tower, the Shadow cast, etc?  Others are white shadows, vs Mels shadow assassins. 

[Black Crow]

I don't know whether there is an actual connection, but I do agree that shadows are very heavily emphasised for a reason

[Black Crow]

5 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Cold does have a smell. I remember it well as a child. Its sort of stale smelling, but it clings to peoples clothing after they've been outside for awhile.

 

Oh yes, when reading those references I knew exactly what that smell is

[Black Crow]

On 5/23/2018 at 1:10 PM, LynnS said:

We have GRRM's statement that Sam broke the spell when he used dragonglass on the WW which melted and disolved in a mist.  So I'm not sure that it is actually 'dead' but returned to a disembodied state. 

It occurs to me that the Varamyr prologue may be relevant here. After his body dies his conscious spirit flies free, riding the cold winds until he is suddenly drawn into or claimed by One Eye. Perhaps Craster's boys also ride the winds as he did, but having no host body can form their own as and when required, using ice crystals.

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

It occurs to me that the Varamyr prologue may be relevant here. After his body dies his conscious spirit flies free, riding the cold winds until he is suddenly drawn into or claimed by One Eye. Perhaps Craster's boys also ride the winds as he did, but having no host body can form their own as and when required, using ice crystals.

Stannis says the white walkers are made of snow and ice:

 

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Samwell V

Melisandre smiled. "Necromancy animates these wights, yet they are still only dead flesh. Steel and fire will serve for them. The ones you call the Others are something more."

"Demons made of snow and ice and cold," said Stannis Baratheon. "The ancient enemy. The only enemy that matters." He considered Sam again. "I am told that you and this wildling girl passed beneath the Wall, through some magic gate."

and I've wondered about the sudden appearance of Sam's white walker:

 

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Samwell I

But that was wrong. They weren't alone at all.

The lower branches of the great green sentinel shed their burden of snow with a soft wet plop. Grenn spun, thrusting out his torch. "Who goes there?" A horse's head emerged from the darkness. Sam felt a moment's relief, until he saw the horse. Hoarfrost covered it like a sheen of frozen sweat, and a nest of stiff black entrails dragged from its open belly. On its back was a rider pale as ice. Sam made a whimpery sound deep in his throat. He was so scared he might have pissed himself all over again, but the cold was in him, a cold so savage that his bladder felt frozen solid. The Other slid gracefully from the saddle to stand upon the snow. Sword-slim it was, and milky white. Its armor rippled and shifted as it moved, and its feet did not break the crust of the new-fallen snow.

 I think it's possible that the disembodied spirits go into the trees as well or at least can be anchored in the soldier pines and sentinel trees:

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

And they did sing. They sang in True Tongue, so Bran could not understand the words, but their voices were as pure as winter air. "Where are the rest of you?" Bran asked Leaf, once.

"Gone down into the earth," she answered. "Into the stones, into the trees.

 

 

 

[Maglor78]

Been awhile since I posted but per below article it would appear the mummers version felt the sacrifices of sons to the WW was important enough to film....if not make it into the final version.....this would seem to be even further confirmation of what Craster was really up to..../cheers heretics

 

 

https://winteriscoming.net/2018/05/28/hannah-murray-gilly-reveals-season-7-deleted-scene-teases-season-8/

It’s actually an extended version of the scene from “Eastwatch” where Gilly reads about “Ragar” Targaryen and inadvertently stumbles upon the secret of Jon Snow’s true parentage. In the deleted portion, Gilly also discovered something much more personal. According to Murray, Gilly read a book titled Legend of the Long Night, which contained a story about a wildling who sacrificed his sons to the White Walkers. That, of course, sounds very much like what Gilly’s father Craster did to his own sons, and what almost happened to Baby Sam.

[Tucu]

26 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I think it's possible that the disembodied spirits go into the trees as well or at least can be anchored in the soldier pines and sentinel trees:

There are some quotes from the GoT prologue that suggests the relationship between the WW and the trees:

Quote

Down below, the lordling called out suddenly, "Who goes there?" Will heard uncertainty in the challenge. He stopped climbing; he listened; he watched.

The woods gave answer: the rustle of leaves, the icy rush of the stream, a distant hoot of a snow owl.

 

Quote

A shadow emerged from the dark of the wood. It stood in front of Royce. Tall, it was, and gaunt and hard as old bones, with flesh pale as milk. Its armor seemed to change color as it moved; here it was white as new-fallen snow, there black as shadow, everywhere dappled with the deep grey-green of the trees. The patterns ran like moonlight on water with every step it took.

We have a white shadow emerging from the wood and the trees answering Royce in what fits the description of the True Tongue in the world book

Quote

He was taken to a secret place to meet with them, but could not at first understand their speech, which was described as sounding like the song of stones in a brook, or the wind through leaves, or the rain upon the water

 

[LynnS]

2 minutes ago, Tucu said:

There are some quotes from the GoT prologue that suggests the relationship between the WW and the trees:

We have a white shadow emerging from the wood :-)

They don't call it the haunted forest for nothing.  

[SirArthur]

Just a stupid question, as I read the 

Quote

"Gone down into the earth," she answered. "Into the stones, into the trees.

and the 

Quote

"Obsidian." Sam struggled to his knees. "Dragonglass, they call it. Dragonglass. Dragon glass." He giggled, and cried, and doubled over to heave his courage out onto the snow.

and then 

 

Quote

"Obsidian," Maester Luwin insisted, holding out his wounded arm. "Forged in the fires of the gods, far below the earth. The children of the forest hunted with that, thousands of years ago. The children worked no metal. In place of mail, they wore long shirts of woven leaves and bound their legs in bark, so they seemed to melt into the wood. In place of swords, they carried blades of obsidian."

and

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Armen the Acolyte cleared his throat. "The night before an acolyte says his vows, he must stand a vigil in the vault. No lantern is permitted him, no torch, no lamp, no taper . . . only a candle of obsidian. He must spend the night in darkness, unless he can light that candle. Some will try. The foolish and the stubborn, those who have made a study of these so-called higher mysteries. Often they cut their fingers, for the ridges on the candles are said to be as sharp as razors. Then, with bloody hands, they must wait upon the dawn, brooding on their failure. Wiser men simply go to sleep, or spend their night in prayer, but every year there are always a few who must try."

"Yes." Pate had heard the same stories. "But what's the use of a candle that casts no light?"

 

and

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"I know what I saw. The light was queer and bright, much brighter than any beeswax or tallow candle. It cast strange shadows and the flame never flickered, not even when a draft blew through the open door behind me."

Armen crossed his arms. "Obsidian does not burn."

 

and

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"The armor of the Others is proof against most ordinary blades, if the tales can be believed, and their own swords are so cold they shatter steel. Fire will dismay them, though, and they are vulnerable to obsidian. I found one account of the Long Night that spoke of the last hero slaying Others with a blade of dragonsteel. Supposedly they could not stand against it."

 

and

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Sam rolled onto his side, eyes wide as the Other shrank and puddled, dissolving away. In twenty heartbeats its flesh was gone, swirling away in a fine white mist. Beneath were bones like milkglass, pale and shiny, and they were melting too. Finally only the dragonglass dagger remained, wreathed in steam as if it were alive and sweating. Grenn bent to scoop it up and flung it down again at once. "Mother, that's cold."

 

 

Uff. And now for the conclusion:

1. Obsidian is not only a host for Children but also binds White Walkers into the "stone".

2. Sam is not looking when he kills the WW with the dagger. Sadly we do not know if the obsidian lights (like Lightbringer or the candles) when he touches his target. I assume it is the case. 

3. The light in the obsidian candles somehow gives me the idea that it can connect to/bind the spirit/soul of skinchangers. And that the Others are skinchangers. Much like Bran or Jon (remember how he steamed when he was stabbed, almost like the WW steamed that Sam killed) ... or Dany in that case. And that skinchanging is, what Dany should remember. 

[Tucu]

7 minutes ago, LynnS said:

They don't call it the haunted forest for nothing.  

True, and you don't attack the Haunted Forest without consequences

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"Gods!" he heard behind him. A sword slashed at a branch as Ser Waymar Royce gained the ridge. He stood there beside the sentinel, longsword in hand, his cloak billowing behind him as the wind came up, outlined nobly against the stars for all to see.

 

[Black Crow]

10 minutes ago, Tucu said:

There are some quotes from the GoT prologue that suggests the relationship between the WW and the trees:

Your second quote is oddly reminiscent of Varamy's soul flying through the night

[Black Crow]

34 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Stannis says the white walkers are made of snow and ice:

Exactly so 

[Black Crow]

35 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I think it's possible that the disembodied spirits go into the trees as well or at least can be anchored in the soldier pines and sentinel trees:

Equivalent of the batcave 

[Tucu]

9 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Your second quote is oddly reminiscent of Varamy's soul flying through the night

Yes, Varamyr goes inside the weirwood and then to the snow (before jumping between trees and animals)

Quote

For a moment it was as if he were inside the weirwood, gazing out through carved red eyes as a dying man twitched feebly on the ground and a madwoman danced blind and bloody underneath the moon, weeping red tears and ripping at her clothes. Then both were gone and he was rising, melting, his spirit borne on some cold wind. He was in the snow and in the clouds,

 

[SirArthur]

Quote

"Firewyrms. Some say they are akin to dragons, for wyrms breathe fire too. Instead of soaring through the sky, they bore through stone and soil. If the old tales can be believed, there were wyrms amongst the Fourteen Flames even before the dragons came. The young ones are no larger than that skinny arm of yours, but they can grow to monstrous size and have no love for men."

through obsidian maybe ....

Would be amazing if dragons are born by skinchanging through obsidian.

[LynnS]

55 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Equivalent of the batcave 

There is also the strange case of Ned Stark's ghost pulled back to the Winterfell crypts all the way from KL.  Since his bones weren't there, I suspect he was taken into the weirwood and it's no mistake that Arya hears his voice at Harrenhal or that Jon dreams of the weirwood with his father's face watching him. 

[Tucu]

5 hours ago, LynnS said:

There is also the strange case of Ned Stark's ghost pulled back to the Winterfell crypts all the way from KL.  Since his bones weren't there, I suspect he was taken into the weirwood and it's no mistake that Arya hears his voice at Harrenhal or that Jon dreams of the weirwood with his father's face watching him. 

Arya's conversation with tree-Ned starts in a similar way to Waymar's encounter with the WW:

Quote

For a long moment there was no sound but the wind and the water and the creak of leaf and limb. And then, far far off, beyond the godswood and the haunted towers and the immense stone walls of Harrenhal, from somewhere out in the world, came the long lonely howl of a wolf. Gooseprickles rose on Arya's skin, and for an instant she felt dizzy. Then, so faintly, it seemed as if she heard her father's voice. "When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolfdies, but the pack survives," he said.

But she is a Stark so the trees knew how to make her understand.