Heresy 209 Of Ice and of Fire

[JNR]

5 hours ago, Matthew. said:

Have the Others been a steady presence, infrequently encountered, or did Other encounters cease entirely for thousands of years? I'm strongly inclined toward the latter read

So am I -- for virtually the entire time since the Long Night, in fact.  

Among other fairly obvious reasons, there is Ned's remark here:

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You listen to too many of Old Nan's stories. The Others are as dead as the children of the forest, gone eight thousand years. Maester Luwin will tell you they never lived at all.

The boldfaced is simply not something Ned would say unless he felt sure.

Why does he feel sure?  Well, if the Watch had any significant history of interacting with the Popsicles going back thousands of years, Ned would have heard of it via Benjen (who is First Ranger, of course).  And he clearly never has heard any such thing.

So I conclude that the Watch as a body is not aware that the Popsicles exist, or ever has existed in God knows how long... and it's not even certain in Ned's mind that they ever existed.  

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Maybe over the hundreds of years the new recruits dismissed the threats of white walkers and wights as being grumpkins and snarks and viewed the obsidian blades as stupid superstitious relics?

Of course they did.  And furthermore, after the Andals arrived, however many thousands of years ago, they brought steel to the Watch.  

While steel blades still weren't as sharp as obsidian, they were sharp enough, and dramatically sturdier... and hence, probably replaced obsidian as the cutting blade of choice.  So this double situation is why the Watch forgot all about obsidian long ago.

[JNR]

2 hours ago, Matthew. said:

the reference to dragonsteel would either have been transcribed from the oral history of the Watch, or they set down runic accounts of their early days

Or tales of the Long Night, distorted like all such tales to some degree, were told by the common folk at the time the Andals arrived.  

As Sam says, the septons set them down as a kind of folk memory or mythology.  And because they (the septons) came from a culture that had steel swords, they interpreted the tales they heard of the Last Hero's sword as a form of steel.  

If so, they, not the First Men, created the term dragonsteel... which of course is rendered in Common (the Andals' language) not the Old Tongue the First Men spoke, which would have had no such word.

[Matthew.]

2 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

So 10,000 years ago, they received 100 daggers a year for only a few decades.   For 9000 years, the oral tradition survived to be written down by the Andals, only to be forgotten in the past few hundred?

This is incredulity that first proceeds from several assumptions with which I do not agree; for one, the nearest the text comes to ascribing any timeline to the Watch and the Wall are occasional references to the Wall standing for 8,000 years, or the Watch staying out of the politics of the realm "for 8,000 years." The Andal arrival is more murky, with two thousand years and four thousand years being proposed in one passage, and Luwin's history lesson further muddying the waters.

It's possible within the speculative timelines that many of the oral traditions were recorded in the Andal language thousands of years ago, ample time for the oral passage of that information to fall out of favor.

In addition, the oral tradition is not the only way in which the knowledge could have been preserved pre-Andal, as the FM did engrave information in runes.

Finally, an important additional layer of context is that the Watch is a fallen organization. During Aegon's Conquest, they numbered ten thousand strong; as of aGoT, they numbered less than a thousand, with quite a few of that thousand being illiterate criminals, the embittered losers of Robert's Rebellion (eg, Thorne), and the third and fourth sons of noble houses with nothing better to do. 
 

2 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Dragon steel is also an anachronism,  in more ways than one.  Not only did the first men not have steel,  but the Valarians didn't have dragons yet.

The account Sam read utilizing the phrase "dragonsteel" does not mean that is what the literal word was in the Old Tongue--only that that is how the Last Hero's blade was Andalized, that it was the maester, or Septon, or whomever's best faith attempt at capturing the spirit of the original phase. This also has some of the same problems as the previous conversation, where "dragon" being an anachronism is the sort of thing that might feel true, but isn't actually established within the story--no particular date has been ascribed to the founding of Valyria, and it does not necessarily follow that Valyria was the first place to tame dragons, or to forge magical steel.
 

2 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Either the Battle for the Dawn during The Long Night was fought by someone other than simple Bronze age people,  or the Others have been fought more recently,  or the history of the Watch is fiction.   I suspect all three.

I don't disagree with the premise that history as presented might be inaccurate, I disagree with the premise that it is implausible or "doesn't make sense;" Everything about the way the story has been told thus far would lend itself to a straightforward reading in which the Last Hero sought out the aide of the CotF during the LN, and subsequently, the Battle for the Dawn was fought, and an early iteration of the Watch that received an annual gift of obsidian daggers was created. There is logical connective tissue between these things, which doesn't necessarily demonstrate their truth, but it does demonstrate their plausibility.

That said, I would agree that the dragonsteel is an interesting wrinkle, and I think it does raise two possibilities: that the Long Night and the existence of Valyria were contemporaneous, or that some pre-Valyrian civilization with similar lore and magic existed in Westeros before and during the Long Night.

[Matthew.]

39 minutes ago, JNR said:

If so, they, not the First Men, created the term dragonsteel... which of course is rendered in Common (the Andals' language) not the Old Tongue the First Men spoke, which would have had no such word.

Ack, you beat me to the punch here, but I agree. For example, "dragonsteel" could just be some Septon's flowery interpretation of whatever the Old Tongue term was, and the Old Tongue term may itself have just been a flowery, metaphorical way of describing a firebrand; eg "his blade burned like dragon fire," as opposed to "his blade was literally connected to dragons and Valyria," though I do not dismiss the potential of the latter.

 

[SirArthur]

7 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Dragon steel is also an anachronism,  in more ways than one.  Not only did the first men not have steel,  but the Valarians didn't have dragons yet.

Dragons are the weird part in the North, in more than one way. Enter Sea Dragon Point, a place named after a creature named after a dragon. Then we have our good old Grey King, who slayed Nagga, the mightiest of the sea dragons. Should we conclude now that dragons of Valyria are older than the Grey King from the age of heroes ? Simply to name a creature sea dragon would require knowledge of dragons first. 

[SirArthur]

6 hours ago, JNR said:

Why does he feel sure?  Well, if the Watch had any significant history of interacting with the Popsicles going back thousands of years, Ned would have heard of it via Benjen (who is First Ranger, of course).  And he clearly never has heard any such thing.

Would he ? My conclusion from the first book is a little different. More in a way that the Others are like the Giants: rare, a myth. But possibly encountered from winter to winter. The command of the Watch (Thorne, Mormont, Aemon) seems to have some knowledge while even the lower ranks (Gared) behave in a way that suggests the last encounter is not older than a century. The younger rangers wouldn't continue the fire lightning tradition because they think it stupid. I doubt horn blows and fire in the night would hold for 8000 years as a tradition, when so many other things are lost. 

 

Of course you said significant, but would an encounter with one or two rare creatures in the North be more than a note in the Watch's history ? Luwin would tell us the giants are dead. 

[Black Crow]

Apologies for not responding directly to some of last night's points, but I'd like to make a couple of observations. First Lord Eddard's comment is both ironic and significant.

You listen to too many of Old Nan's stories. The Others are as dead as the children of the forest, gone eight thousand years. Maester Luwin will tell you they never lived at all.

We already know of course that the White Walkers are walking and later learn that the Children of the Forest are not dead, and if they have been around all the time, why not the blue-eyed lot. Neither have been seen below the Wall for a very long time but that's not quite the same thing. The Wildlings know of the Children and according to Osha know of the white shadows as well. The Watch, or at least the older rangers know there's something out there and if they don't articulate it very well that may be because those getting up close and personal didn't come back. Mormont remember is worried that White Walkers have been seen near Eastwatch, its their proximity which concerns him not their being seen for the first time in thousands of years.

Secondly as to dragonsteel, I agree that here we're dealing with the vagaries of oral tradition and literature rather than an historical anomaly. Indeed Sam says as much. A splendid real world example being King Arthur.

In life he appears to have been a Celtic or possibly Romano-Celtic warlord, active in the 6th Century, yet in literature and legend he and his knights - "when there were no knights" - stride around in Gothic plate armour and all the trimmings

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, SirArthur said:

Dragons are the weird part in the North, in more than one way. Enter Sea Dragon Point, a place named after a creature named after a dragon. Then we have our good old Grey King, who slayed Nagga, the mightiest of the sea dragons. Should we conclude now that dragons of Valyria are older than the Grey King from the age of heroes ? Simply to name a creature sea dragon would require knowledge of dragons first. 

I'm inclined to think that a 'sea dragon' is actually a volcanic mount rising from the sea and the source of dragonglass.   Dragonstone is another example of a sea dragon complete with a 'sea dragon' tower.  Where did the cotf get their obsidion?  What was GRRM referring to when he said that once there were 'dragons' in Westeros?

[SirArthur]

31 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I'm inclined to think that a 'sea dragon' is actually a volcanic mount rising from the sea and the source of dragonglass.  

So in your opinion, what was the sea dragon named after ? The land dragon of the Isle of Faces ? Or dragonsteel ?

Or to turn the idea around: Why is a dragon called a dragon, when all the combined dragon words were first ?

[Tucu]

1 minute ago, SirArthur said:

So in your opinion, what was the sea dragon named after ? The land dragon of the Isle of Faces ? Or dragonsteel ?

Or to turn the idea around: Why is a dragon called a dragon, when all the combined dragon words were first ?

"sea dragon" would be an andal translation of the original Old Tongue name. Maybe Nagga's Point would have been a better translation?

[Brad Stark]

On dragons, we have an apparent contradiction from GRRM himself.   We are given hints (in The World Book, the novels themselves and interviews) that dragons were artificially created in Asshai.  But we are also told there were dragons everywhere,  including Westeros,  almost as if they were endemic to all continents. 

Now this isn't necessarily a contradiction.   We aren't explicitly told how long ago dragons were created, they could spread quickly and either way,  we have wild dragons such as Cannibal, Sheepstealer, etc either way, which could be natural,  but more likely like feral cats.

Is it plausible we have Others in Westeros whenever we have dragons?

But the dragonsteel reference is interesting in several ways.   It can't just be dismissed as the Andals attempt to describe whatever different word the first men used.  It implies a high likelihood that someone fought an Other with dragonsteel at some point.  Which means either the Others were around many thousands of years later than we are led to believe or Valyrian steel was around thousands of years earlier. 

It is hinted Valyrian steel needs dragons to make.  I've suspected it involved sacrificing dragons,  as it was rare and valuable even before the Doom.  But either way,  couldn't someone have made it with wild dragons?

If the dragons and Others are connected,  maybe we had Others in Westeros whenever we had dragons. 

[LynnS]

4 hours ago, SirArthur said:

So in your opinion, what was the sea dragon named after ? The land dragon of the Isle of Faces ? Or dragonsteel ?

Or to turn the idea around: Why is a dragon called a dragon, when all the combined dragon words were first ?

Why are the volcanos in Volantis called the fourteen flames and what is the connection to fire magic?  Moqorro says that the massive eruption was caused by men and the result was the wrath of the gods.

When you interpret the story of the Island of Nagga as a sea mount rising from the sea, the story takes on another meaning.  We're also told that Dragonstone Castle was created with sorcery.   

[Melifeather]

7 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Apologies for not responding directly to some of last night's points, but I'd like to make a couple of observations. First Lord Eddard's comment is both ironic and significant.

You listen to too many of Old Nan's stories. The Others are as dead as the children of the forest, gone eight thousand years. Maester Luwin will tell you they never lived at all.

We already know of course that the White Walkers are walking and later learn that the Children of the Forest are not dead, and if they have been around all the time, why not the blue-eyed lot. Neither have been seen below the Wall for a very long time but that's not quite the same thing. The Wildlings know of the Children and according to Osha know of the white shadows as well. The Watch, or at least the older rangers know there's something out there and if they don't articulate it very well that may be because those getting up close and personal didn't come back. Mormont remember is worried that White Walkers have been seen near Eastwatch, its their proximity which concerns him not their being seen for the first time in thousands of years.

Secondly as to dragonsteel, I agree that here we're dealing with the vagaries of oral tradition and literature rather than an historical anomaly. Indeed Sam says as much. A splendid real world example being King Arthur.

In life he appears to have been a Celtic or possibly Romano-Celtic warlord, active in the 6th Century, yet in literature and legend he and his knights - "when there were no knights" - stride around in Gothic plate armour and all the trimmings

While I acknowledge the logic of this line of reasoning, I don't agree that the fact that Children are still alive would necessarily serve as proof that the white walkers have always been around.

The current discussion of the disuse of obsidian blades suggests that the Watch hasn't seen a white walker in thousands of years. Added to that, there must have been a long period of time when the wildlings buried their dead otherwise there wouldn't have been graves to dig up.

I propose that the wildlings revived the tradition of burning their dead after the white walkers made a reappearance, and that it started when Mance first began traveling the north gathering the various tribes together under his kingship. I suspect that Mance is behind the reemergence of white walkers, and their recreation was the centerpiece of his "sales pitch" to convince the wildlings to organize, and plot their escape from the Wall.

[Tucu]

I was looking at quotes from Craster and his wifes about the "gods". I found it interesting how they distinguish between the WW and what they call the "white cold". It also shows that the white cold has been coming for years and it is not a recent event (although it is happening more often)

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"For the baby, not for me. If it's a girl, that's not so bad, she'll grow a few years and he'll marry her. But Nella says it's to be a boy, and she's had six and knows these things. He gives the boys to the gods. Come the white cold, he does, and of late it comes more often. That's why he started giving them sheep, even though he has a taste for mutton. Only now the sheep's gone too. Next it will be dogs, till . . ." She lowered her eyes and stroked her belly.

"What gods?" Jon was remembering that they'd seen no boys in Craster's Keep, nor men either, save Craster himself.

"The cold gods," she said. "The ones in the night. The white shadows."

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There had been no attacks while they had been at Craster's, neither wights nor Others. Nor would there be, Craster said. "A godly man got no cause to fear such. I said as much to that Mance Rayder once, when he come sniffing round. He never listened, no more'n you crows with your swords and your bloody fires. That won't help you none when the white cold comes. Only the gods will help you then. You best get right with the gods."

Gilly had spoken of the white cold as well, and she'd told them what sort of offerings Craster made to his gods

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Dirk speared a chunk of horsemeat. "Aye. So you admit you got a secret larder. How else to make it through a winter?"

"I'm a godly man . . ." Craster started.

Craster and his wifes seem to think that the "white cold" is a challenge that can be survived by being allies with the white shadows/cold gods.

[JNR]

10 hours ago, SirArthur said:

My conclusion from the first book is a little different. More in a way that the Others are like the Giants: rare, a myth. But possibly encountered from winter to winter.

Do you mean the Watch has encountered the Popsicles in recent centuries... knew them to be the Popsicles... and yet Benjen never told Ned the Popsicles actually existed?

How would you explain that startling failure on Benjen's part?

I'd expect it to be Benjen's first order of business on finding out.  Off would go a raven to Winterfell: "Hey, Ned, remember those terrifying ice demons in the tales of the Long Night that Old Nan told us? Well, guess what?!?"  

But we know, for sure, that Ned never got such news at any time in his life.

[JNR]

15 hours ago, Matthew. said:

the Old Tongue term may itself have just been a flowery, metaphorical way of describing a firebrand; eg "his blade burned like dragon fire," as opposed to "his blade was literally connected to dragons and Valyria,"

That would certainly work, yes.  

GRRM works the Old Tongue --> Common shift as a device to obscure the historical truth very skillfully, just as he uses the millennia and the distortions that gradually grow and grow around the myths.

(One day I might ask him how it is that the Black Gate -- said to be as old as the Wall, and therefore, far older than the Andals -- comes to speak Common to Sam Tarly in ASOS.)

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Tucu said:

I was looking at quotes from Craster and his wifes about the "gods". I found it interesting how they distinguish between the WW and what they call the "white cold". It also shows that the white cold has been coming for years and it is not a recent event (although it is happening more often)

Craster and his wifes seem to think that the "white cold" is a challenge that can be survived by being allies with the white shadows/cold gods.

I agree that is the story that Craster and his wives presented, and its implied that he worships the "cold gods" aka white walkers, but then there's also Ygritte's claim that "Craster's blood is black, and he bears a heavy curse", which to me implies that he is compelled to sacrifice...like he's being forced or he's obligated.

[Black Crow]

3 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I propose that the wildlings revived the tradition of burning their dead after the white walkers made a reappearance...

That first line is certainly plausible, but Mormont speaks of their burning the dead as a custom, not something they have started doing recently

[Black Crow]

40 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I agree that is the story that Craster and his wives presented, and its implied that he worships the "cold gods" aka white walkers, but then there's also Ygritte's claim that "Craster's blood is black, and he bears a heavy curse", which to me implies that he is compelled to sacrifice...like he's being forced or he's obligated.

I don't think that the two are contradictory. For whatever the reason, Craster does live under a curse which means that the cold gods come knocking and because they are gods sacrifices must be made to them, no matter the cost

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, JNR said:

Do you mean the Watch has encountered the Popsicles in recent centuries... knew them to be the Popsicles... and yet Benjen never told Ned the Popsicles actually existed?

How would you explain that startling failure on Benjen's part?

I'd expect it to be Benjen's first order of business on finding out.  Off would go a raven to Winterfell: "Hey, Ned, remember those terrifying ice demons in the tales of the Long Night that Old Nan told us? Well, guess what?!?"  

But we know, for sure, that Ned never got such news at any time in his life.

And on the other hand how do you explain Mormont's concern at their reported proximity to Eastwatch but lack of amazement at the report