Heresy 209 Of Ice and of Fire

[Matthew.]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

And on the other hand how do you explain Mormont's concern at their reported proximity to Eastwatch but lack of amazement at the report

Because some of us disagree with this interpretation of that scene.

The way Tyrion receives the report is skeptical - he finds the very idea of sighting a white walker to be silly, comparable to tall tales about seeing mermaids - and Mormont does nothing to disabuse him of that notion, because Mormont is troubled, but does not entirely believe that white walkers are being sighted either. They are not talking about an occasional hazard of the woods that is suddenly coming a little too far south for comfort, they're talking about the apocalyptic Others of legend, the stuff of bedtime stories.

Edit: I should elaborate that I don't outright dismiss the possibility that the Others may have been out there in some fashion during their long period of silence; perhaps hiding in the Lands of Always Winter, perhaps bound somewhere. Though I personally find it less plausible, I also see the case for them hiding within the Haunted Forest and having such limited encounters with humans that the occasional claim of sighting one is not treated as credible.

What I don't agree with at all is this idea of certain members of the Watch not merely having a superstitious fear or suspicion that they might be out there, but knowing they're out there, and not finding this fact particularly noteworthy.

3 hours ago, JNR said:

I'd expect it to be Benjen's first order of business on finding out.  Off would go a raven to Winterfell: "Hey, Ned, remember those terrifying ice demons in the tales of the Long Night that Old Nan told us? Well, guess what?!?"  

Right, Eddard is both directly connected to the First Ranger and a friend to the Watch who hosts brothers at Winterfell, so it is fair for us to characterize him as having an above-average level of access to the sorts of information the Watch has to offer, to the sorts of stories they tell at a feast.

Perhaps there's an element of subjective immersion here, and other readers who imagine themselves in-world have a different perception, but I can't imagine being a member of the NW in-world, and reacting to the revelation that the Others are still around and encountered occasionally in the woods with anything less than astonishment and panic. 

 

[Tucu]

30 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I don't think that the two are contradictory. For whatever the reason, Craster does live under a curse which means that the cold gods come knocking and because they are gods sacrifices must be made to them, no matter the cost

I am not sure if I would call that a curse, his is giving life to get assistance for surviving the white cold. As Mirri and Melisandre put it:

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Only death can pay for life, my lord. A great gift requires a great sacrifice

 

[Matthew.]

6 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

But the dragonsteel reference is interesting in several ways.   It can't just be dismissed as the Andals attempt to describe whatever different word the first men used.  It implies a high likelihood that someone fought an Other with dragonsteel at some point.  Which means either the Others were around many thousands of years later than we are led to believe or Valyrian steel was around thousands of years earlier. 

I don't dismiss the legend--I 100% believe that the Last Hero slew Others with some variety of magical sword during the Long Night; I'm merely observing that the perceived anachronisms might reflect inaccurate word choices in the translation from Old Tongue to Common.

For what it's worth, I lean toward the latter scenario you suggest: either Valyrian steel was around much earlier than we believe, or some metal with similar properties was made within Westeros. For example, Dawn might be a pre-Valyrian magical blade.

As you cited, GRRM has said that dragons could once be found everywhere, and I think we have more to learn when it comes to ancient Westeros, and the various relics and magics that have subsequently become associated with Valyria and fire; in addition to the dragonsteel, there's also Moat Cailin, a structure built of blocks of basalt the size of cottages, that may be at least 10,000 years old, and possibly was already completed before the hammer of the waters. Did the same culture that was building crude ringforts build Moat Cailin? 

[Melifeather]

30 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

The way Tyrion receives the report is skeptical - he finds the very idea of sighting a white walker to be silly, comparable to tall tales about seeing mermaids - and Mormont does nothing to disabuse him of that notion, because Mormont is troubled, but does not entirely believe that white walkers are being sighted either. They are not talking about an occasional hazard of the woods that is suddenly coming a little too far south for comfort, they're talking about the apocalyptic Others of legend, the stuff of bedtime stories.

Exact-o-mundo. 

16 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

I don't dismiss the legend--I 100% believe that the Last Hero slew Others with some variety of magical sword during the Long Night; I'm merely observing that the perceived anachronisms might reflect inaccurate word choices in the translation from Old Tongue to Common.

For what it's worth, I lean toward the latter scenario you suggest: either Valyrian steel was around much earlier than we believe, or some metal with similar properties was made within Westeros. For example, Dawn might be a pre-Valyrian magical blade.

Steel is an alloy of mainly iron and carbon with some other lesser elements.

Iron is a known element for warding against magic, as well as being the main component in Andal swords.

Carbon is composed of organic and inorganic compounds, and occurs in all organic life. I think we all tend to associate carbon with aeons-old layers of dead animals and plant life, and found in various forms of compression, like crude oil, a solid form, diamonds, and as a gas. Because carbon is found in the ground, it naturally could be associated with obsidian which is volcanic glass from igneous rock. Obsidian even contains iron which gives it its dark color.

To conclude, if obsidian contains iron and is an alloy (like steel) of various elements, is created (forged like a sword) by the extreme heat of volcanoes, found in the ground (like carbon), and can break magic spells (like iron), then I think it might be reasonable to conclude that dragonsteel is a sword made out of obsidian.

[SirArthur]

4 hours ago, JNR said:

Do you mean the Watch has encountered the Popsicles in recent centuries... knew them to be the Popsicles... and yet Benjen never told Ned the Popsicles actually existed?

How would you explain that startling failure on Benjen's part?

I'd expect it to be Benjen's first order of business on finding out.  Off would go a raven to Winterfell: "Hey, Ned, remember those terrifying ice demons in the tales of the Long Night that Old Nan told us? Well, guess what?!?"  

But we know, for sure, that Ned never got such news at any time in his life.

We know for sure that Ned questioned Gared. If Gared's answers are actually useable is another thing. But we know for sure that Ned questioned an eye witness. 

And as far as I remember, Thorne is an eye witness, at least he claims it. He tells Tyrion in a Clash of Kings, he has seen the Walking Dead near Eastwatch. Of course Ned is dead at this point, but you can witness how people believe him - not at all. And he is a knight after all. 

As to Benjen - he is of the same sort as Thorne: talking about the Others all the time (when he actually talks in the books): mocking other people with them. At one point he tells Jon he fears the Others have gotten Jon. That is the same talk Thorne uses to bring fear in the hearts of the recruits. Now if they know something or not is to be seen, but for 8000 year old legends they sure use the term "Others" often enough. 

 

[Black Crow]

9 hours ago, SirArthur said:

We know for sure that Ned questioned Gared. If Gared's answers are actually useable is another thing. But we know for sure that Ned questioned an eye witness. 

And as far as I remember, Thorne is an eye witness, at least he claims it. He tells Tyrion in a Clash of Kings, he has seen the Walking Dead near Eastwatch. Of course Ned is dead at this point, but you can witness how people believe him - not at all. And he is a knight after all. 

As to Benjen - he is of the same sort as Thorne: talking about the Others all the time (when he actually talks in the books): mocking other people with them. At one point he tells Jon he fears the Others have gotten Jon. That is the same talk Thorne uses to bring fear in the hearts of the recruits. Now if they know something or not is to be seen, but for 8000 year old legends they sure use the term "Others" often enough. 

 

I don't recall exactly what was said, but Lord Eddard's comment on Gared was that he was mad with fear and made no sense, which could well mean that Gared spoke of White Walkers and was dismissed as havering.

Similarly, I don't recall Thorne telling Tyrion about the walking dead near Eastwatch, but he was certainly in Castle Black when Otor and Jafer came knocking. They were indeed wights rather than walkers of course but your point stands

As to Benjen and his brother, it is a truism that those who have truly seen the elephant are reluctant to talk to any but their immediate comrades about it because they believe rightly or wrongly that those who have not - and especially family members - simply do not and cannot understand, so I would not rely on Benjen's failure to tell Lord Eddard all about it as evidence that he knows nothing, and especially given the way the older rangers [Gared included] fear there is something out there.

[JNR]

18 hours ago, SirArthur said:

As to Benjen - he is of the same sort as Thorne: talking about the Others all the time (when he actually talks in the books): mocking other people with them.

I'm again going to say that if the rangers knew the Popsicles were real, then Benjen as First Ranger would have known too.  

And if he knew, it is inconceivable that he would not have mentioned this to Ned.   Odds are zero.

If he had, it would have blown Ned's mind and there's no way Ned could possibly think the Others had been gone for eight thousand years.  

But Ned does say that, so that is an end to any possibility that Benjen knew; Benjen did not, not at the time AGOT begins.

As to the everyday usage you mention:

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Benjen Stark emerged from the shelter he shared with his nephew. "There you are. Jon, damn it, don't go off like that by yourself. I thought the Others had gotten you."

...that's about as meaningful as when your uncle says "Idle hands are the Devil's workshop."  It in no way implies belief in a literal Devil.  

[JNR]

20 hours ago, Black Crow said:

And on the other hand how do you explain Mormont's concern at their reported proximity to Eastwatch but lack of amazement at the report

Let's take a look at the text.

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"In your dreams," Tyrion echoed, thinking how badly he needed another strong drink.

Mormont was deaf to the edge in his voice. "The fisherfolk near Eastwatch have glimpsed white walkers on the shore."

This time Tyrion could not hold his tongue. "The fisherfolk of Lannisport often glimpse merlings."

We see here that the reason Mormont brings up the fisherfolk is not that Eastwatch is close to the Wall.

Mormont doesn't say: "We all know the Popsicles are real, and now we have evidence how close they are."

Mormont brings up the fisherfolk because they are the best evidence he has -- secondhand reports -- that the Popsicles are real.

The reason merling reports are the best he has is obvious.  It's because nobody in the Watch to his knowledge (recall he doesn't know about Royce et al, in the prologue, which happened hundreds of miles north of the Wall) has encountered the Popsicles.

As to why Mormont is inclined to give the fisherfolk and their tales any credence at all, he tells us why.  It's this:

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"You must make them understand. I tell you, my lord, the darkness is coming. There are wild things in the woods, direwolves and mammoths and snow bears the size of aurochs, and I have seen darker shapes in my dreams."

His dreams... that the darkness is coming.  

Well, Mormont is not wrong that the Popsicles are on the march, but he has no factual objective knowledge to share here -- nothing comparable to what he eventually gets re direct experience of the wights later in the book, or the Popsicles themselves at the Fist in ASOS.

He just feels it all in his bones, emotionally:

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These are old bones, Lannister, but they have never felt a chill like this

Even on the lesser subject of direwolves north of the Wall, he doesn't seem to be right.  Not one direwolf is ever seen there, at any time in the text, not a single one... except of course for Summer and Ghost.  And Varamyr, who has lived beyond the Wall all his life and covets powerful animals, has never seen one at any time until he sees Ghost.

So I think GRRM is doing a nice job of mixing up emotions, facts, dreams, paranoia, superstition, etc., to create an overall mood and drive his plot... but I also think the Watch has no knowledge of dealing with Popsicles going back thousands of years.

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, JNR said:

I'm again going to say that if the rangers knew the Popsicles were real, then Benjen as First Ranger would have known too.  

And if he knew, it is inconceivable that he would not have mentioned this to Ned.   Odds are zero.

If he had, it would have blown Ned's mind and there's no way Ned could possibly think the Others had been gone for eight thousand years.  

But Ned does say that, so that is an end to any possibility that Benjen knew; Benjen did not, not at the time AGOT begins.

 

Not inconceivable at all as I explained above, especially if they were already in the background and had been for a long time. Whether you want to argue that they have been gone for thousands of years or argue for a continued presence the fact of the matter is that at the present time the gang that ambushed Ser Waymar were not their first appearance. Aside from what the rangers may or may not know, Mance Rayder has been using the threat they represent to rally the Wildling clans behind him for the past five years and more.

If its that recent its news, and as news it can be argued that Benjen might have mentioned it conversational like to his big brother, but if it isn't news, then its just of the queer goings on that people who live in the green lands and who don't range northwards through the forest don't want to know about and don't understand.

[SirArthur]

Hmm. 

Did Ned know about Mance and the empty villages north of the Wall ? Did he know about the penetration of the Wall through the 3 ways aGoT tells us ? Did he know about the animals fleeing south ? For me this is more or less the answer to the question what Benjen would tell Ned. 

[Matthew.]

13 hours ago, Black Crow said:

As to Benjen and his brother, it is a truism that those who have truly seen the elephant are reluctant to talk to any but their immediate comrades about it because they believe rightly or wrongly that those who have not - and especially family members - simply do not and cannot understand, so I would not rely on Benjen's failure to tell Lord Eddard all about it as evidence that he knows nothing, and especially given the way the older rangers [Gared included] fear there is something out there.

Perhaps, though Jon notes the way Benjen's demeanor changes once he's on the job:

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Even his uncle had abandoned him in this cold place at the end of the world. Up here, the genial Benjen Stark he had known became a different person. He was First Ranger, and he spent his days and nights with Lord Commander Mormont and Maester Aemon and the other high officers, while Jon was given over to the less than tender charge of Ser Alliser Thorne.

He takes his role seriously, and the legendary "role" of the Night's Watch is well understood within Westerosi culture--some characters refer to it derisively ("going off to fight snarks and grumpkins"), while Jon thinks to himself more earnestly and longingly about the idea of riding with Benjen and warding the realm against the Others, but the tone the author has set here is consistent; for a ranger of the Night's Watch to know for a fact that there are Others in the Haunted Forest and not sound the alarm bells is an extreme dereliction of duty, one that is difficult to find believable in the veterans, and more unbelievable still from Benjen.

Thus, the way Mormont handles his conversation with Tyrion. He's pleading for help, he's seeing lots of troubling signs, but he has nothing verified, nothing irrefutable to work from; when Tyrion reacts with skepticism to tales coming from fisherfolk, Mormont can't argue, because Mormont himself doesn't entirely believe the report, doesn't want to believe the report, because Mormont himself doesn't like to go off of hearsay alone:
 

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"Dywen says you can find anything beyond the Wall."

"Aye, Dywen says. And the last time he went ranging, he says he saw a bear fifteen feet tall." Mormont snorted. "My sister is said to have taken a bear for her lover. I'd believe that before I'd believe one fifteen feet tall. Though in a world where dead come walking . . . ah, even so, a man must believe his eyes. I have seen the dead walk. I've not seen any giant bears."

Despite the lore of the Watch, it isn't until Othor's attack that what's happening truly becomes real and undeniable to Mormont, rather than a set of suspicions, some troubling dreams; this is not a man who knew that the white walkers of legend were out there, and was un-amazed by that fact.

[Black Crow]

10 hours ago, Matthew. said:

Perhaps, though Jon notes the way Benjen's demeanor changes once he's on the job:

He takes his role seriously, and the legendary "role" of the Night's Watch is well understood within Westerosi culture--some characters refer to it derisively ("going off to fight snarks and grumpkins"), while Jon thinks to himself more earnestly and longingly about the idea of riding with Benjen and warding the realm against the Others, but the tone the author has set here is consistent; for a ranger of the Night's Watch to know for a fact that there are Others in the Haunted Forest and not sound the alarm bells is an extreme dereliction of duty, one that is difficult to find believable in the veterans, and more unbelievable still from Benjen.

Thus, the way Mormont handles his conversation with Tyrion. He's pleading for help, he's seeing lots of troubling signs, but he has nothing verified, nothing irrefutable to work from; when Tyrion reacts with skepticism to tales coming from fisherfolk, Mormont can't argue, because Mormont himself doesn't entirely believe the report, doesn't want to believe the report, because Mormont himself doesn't like to go off of hearsay alone:
 

Despite the lore of the Watch, it isn't until Othor's attack that what's happening truly becomes real and undeniable to Mormont, rather than a set of suspicions, some troubling dreams; this is not a man who knew that the white walkers of legend were out there, and was un-amazed by that fact.

I don't think that the argument needs to be polarised. There is evidence that there is and always has been something nasty in the woodpile, but the Watch's purpose according to its oath is to defend the realms of men, ie; the green lands below the Wall. Grumkins, snarks, wildlings and the occasional white shadow in the woods might be dangerous to rangers and especially lone rangers [sorry  ] but for hundreds and thousands of years only the wildlings have tried to pass the Wall and threaten the realms below it, which is why the Watch have gradually come to focus on them.

Whats now changing is that the dead are walking and the blue-eyed lot may now be threatening the realms of men

[Melifeather]

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Whats now changing is that the dead are walking and the blue-eyed lot may now be threatening the realms of men

The mummer's version plays up the white walkers leading the wights pretty hard, but it isn't that way in the books. Once the wildlings are through the Wall the focus is manning the castles, "saving" wildlings that haven't made it through yet, and gathering men to attack Winterfell. 

[JNR]

23 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Whether you want to argue that they have been gone for thousands of years or argue for a continued presence the fact of the matter is that at the present time the gang that ambushed Ser Waymar were not their first appearance.

Well, they certainly appeared in the Long Night.  

Which is exactly what Ned has in mind in saying, so flatly, that they've been gone for eight thousand years. 

23 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Aside from what the rangers may or may not know, Mance Rayder has been using the threat they represent to rally the Wildling clans behind him for the past five years and more.

This certainly never comes up in canon.  It's only a Heretical extrapolation.

23 hours ago, Black Crow said:

it can be argued that Benjen might have mentioned it conversational like to his big brother, but if it isn't news, then its just of the queer goings on that people who live in the green lands and who don't range northwards through the forest don't want to know about and don't understand

If First Ranger Benjen Stark knew that the Popsicles were real, he certainly would have notified his brother, who is the Stark in Winterfell.

To argue that Benjen wouldn't bother... because Ned lives "in the green lands" and doesn't want to know about the existence and return of the mythological ice demons that murdered the entire North... seems more than a little iffy as arguments go.

[Tucu]

3 minutes ago, JNR said:

Well, they certainly appeared in the Long Night.  

Which is exactly what Ned has in mind in saying, so flatly, that they've been gone for eight thousand years.

The World Books gives a different version

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Now, six thousand years later (or eight thousand as True History puts forward), the Wall made to defend the realms of men is still manned by the sworn brothers of the Night's Watch, and neither the Others nor the children have been seen in many centuries.

So the NW is quite good at ignoring the existence of other sentient races: CoTF, giants and Others. Those rangers are not great spies.

[Matthew.]

11 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I don't think that the argument needs to be polarised. There is evidence that there is and always has been something nasty in the woodpile, but the Watch's purpose according to its oath is to defend the realms of men, ie; the green lands below the Wall. Grumkins, snarks, wildlings and the occasional white shadow in the woods might be dangerous to rangers and especially lone rangers [sorry  ] but for hundreds and thousands of years only the wildlings have tried to pass the Wall and threaten the realms below it, which is why the Watch have gradually come to focus on them.

Whats now changing is that the dead are walking and the blue-eyed lot may now be threatening the realms of men

Some aspects of this are not a black and white disagreement. I can see the case for suggesting that the white walkers were not fully gone from the Haunted Forest--they don't leave tracks in the snow, they're compared to mists and shadows, they wear reflective armor, the Haunted Forest is a vast place that provides a lot of room to hide, and the Others probably win most direct confrontations.

With that in mind, I can believe that they could hide their presence, and in the rare instances where they're seen, the witnesses write the encounter off as a trick of light, or are discounted by others as being liars, or superstitious. IMO, that's less straightforward than suggesting that they were hiding in the Lands of Always Winter, and there is no evidence that they've always been out there, but it is a scenario that is possible.

What is a total non-starter for me is the assertion of certitude, that people like Mormont do not merely fear the possibility of the white walkers out there, but know that they're out there, a certitude combined, even more implausibly, with nonchalance. There are major problems there in both evidence and storytelling intent, an intent in which the Others are to be viewed with wonder and terror.

Comments like Eddard's about the Others being gone for 8,000 years, or sentiments like these from Jon:

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Mormont rounded on him. "So you believe this is Mance Rayder's work? This close to the Wall?"

"Who else, my lord?"

Jon could have told him. He knew, they all knew, yet no man of them would say the words. The Others are only a story, a tale to make children shiver. If they ever lived at all, they are gone eight thousand years. Even the thought made him feel foolish; he was a man grown now, a black brother of the Night's Watch, not the boy who'd once sat at Old Nan's feet with Bran and Robb and Arya.

...

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Unbidden, he thought back on the tales that Old Nan used to tell them, when he was a boy at Winterfell. He could almost hear her voice again, and the click-click-click of her needles. In that darkness, the Others came riding, she used to say, dropping her voice lower and lower. Cold and dead they were, and they hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun, and every living creature with hot blood in its veins. Holdfasts and cities and kingdoms of men all fell before them, as they moved south on pale dead horses, leading hosts of the slain. They fed their dead servants on the flesh of human children …

... are not to be understood as an omniscient census of the Others' numbers (nor as a misdirect), they are establishing the tone for the Others, and contextualizing the Prologue encounter. Martin was making clear that what happened in the Prologue is not a standard fictional hazard of his world, not the equivalent of, say, encountering an orc on Middle-Earth; it's the stuff of horror stories, of nightmares. What has happened is extraordinary for the characters--and, by extension, the reader. That's the context people are bringing with them when they join the Watch, the context they'd have were they to actually see a white walker.

[SirArthur]

Hmm. 

For my taste the Others are used too often to create fear or to curse. We have dragons, unicorns, kraken. All those could have been used. Even Wildlings to motivate the recruits of the NW. Instead Others are used. If someone would tell you in the army, you have to work hard, else the romans would come and enslave you, you would laugh your ass off. 

And that is the point that makes me think romans must be a thread. Else nobody would take all those speeches serious.

[Black Crow]

As to that point, I don't recall any members of the Watch referring to grumkins or snarks, which suggests that the rangers fear something and outsiders like Tyrion mock those fears

[SirArthur]

One of the other boys sniggered. Jon knew better than to reply. He had beaten everyone that Ser Alliser had sent against him, yet it gained him nothing. The master-at-arms served up only derision. Thorne hated him, Jon had decided; of course, he hated the other boys even worse.

"That will be all," Thorne told them. "I can only stomach so much ineptitude in any one day. If the Others ever come for us, I pray they have archers, because you lot are fit for nothing more than arrow fodder."

Jon followed the rest back to the armory, walking alone. He often walked alone here. There were almost twenty in the group he trained with, yet not one he could call a friend. Most were two or three years his senior, yet not one was half the fighter Robb had been at fourteen. Dareon was quick but afraid of being hit. Pyp used his sword like a dagger, Jeren was weak as a girl, Grenn slow and clumsy. Halder's blows were brutally hard but he ran right into your attacks. The more time he spent with them, the more Jon despised them.

aGoT - Jon III

 

[alienarea]

Since I only drop in now and then since two (?) years, you man have discussed it already, and after more than two hundred threads you should.

If Brandon hadn't been executed by the mad king, Ned might have been send to the wall instead of Benjen. Maybe he had been prepared for this and learned about "North of the wall" and there wasn't much reason for Benjen to tell Ned things he already knew?

We often discussed a Stark connection to the Others. In the books we have the sacrifice of a man and Bran is able to taste his blood - my interpretation.

In the tv show this scene is shifted to the COTF creating the Night's King, following the scene above it might be the Starks to do so in the books. 

Unrelated: Jon is a fire wight, he may become the flaming sword for Daenerys, the princess who was promised. 

Reading my post I realize I build a case for Bran being the Night's King.

From a writer's perspective it is subverting a trope to start a book with the antagonist being a boy who gets crippled.