Heresy 209 Of Ice and of Fire

[Frey family reunion]

10 minutes ago, Tucu said:

I would be content with just seeing the devastation in the TWOW, assuming that the book lives to its name unlike ADWD.

[Tucu]

5 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

But don't we have to ask if these are the same White Walkers that only existed 5 to 8 thousand years ago?  I mean if they are this powerful, where have they been holed up for all this time?  And isn't it interesting that they are so easily identifiable, that Will takes one glance at them and immediately comes to the conclusion that they are the White Walkers of legend, the boogeymen of the north.  Are the folk tales, which Will undoubtedly grew up with, an accurate depiction of the legendary White Walkers, or are these White Walkers created to reflect the folk tales of the legendary White Walkers?

For example  there is a theory that the Ogres of folklore may have been derived from tales told of ancient Hungarians, who plagued various parts of Europe.  The word Ogre perhaps being derived either from Hongrois, or Ugri, or Ugor names given by neighboring people to the tribes which later became Hungary.  Their neighbors being plagued by these tribes would describe them as monstrous and inhuman, and gradually the term Ogre took on a life of its own through folklore.  So today if someone were to see and immediately recognize something as an ogre, it would probably be bald, and green and monstrously large, probably looking like the cartoon Shrek come to life.  But it wouldn't look at all like an ethnic predecessor of the Hungarians, where the term may have originated. 

Interestingly enough, according to Wiki the Hungarian tribes referred to themselves as "Maygar".  I wonder if GRRM's use of the word Magnar may be a deliberate nod.  Perhaps the ancient people of Skagos and Thenn (probable cannibals) were the original inspiration behind the White Walker legends.  Terrible people who were driven into the mainland by the Long Winter and came into contact with the more civilized First Men.  These people and their practices would have certainly seemed monstrous to the First Men, which may in turn have led to folklore and bedtime stories exaggerating their monstrosity.  And then in turn, someone needed to create a magical creation, a golem, if you will, created to inspire fear in the denizens of the North, on both sides of the Wall.  So they crafted their White Walkers to resemble the folklore of the White Walkers as opposed to the actual White Walkers of old.

In the world book GRRM teases something like that as a possibility:

Quote

Archmaester Fomas's Lies of the Ancients—though little regarded these days for its erroneous claims regarding the founding of Valyria and certain lineal claims in the Reach and westerlands—does speculate that the Others of legend were nothing more than a tribe of the First Men, ancestors of the wildlings, that had established itself in the far north. Because of the Long Night, these early wildlings were then pressured to begin a wave of conquests to the south. That they became monstrous in the tales told thereafter, according to Fomas, reflects the desire of the Night's Watch and the Starks to give themselves a more heroic identity as saviors of mankind, and not merely the beneficiaries of a struggle over dominion.

Although I am more inclined to believe that the WW were always an instrument of terror

[Frey family reunion]

2 hours ago, Tucu said:

In the world book GRRM teases something like that as a possibility:

Although I am more inclined to believe that the WW were always an instrument of terror

That's true even if the current White Walkers are recently created, they could be the same type of golem created during the Long Night.  But I find the possibility that the White Walkers were literally created out of frozen air to resemble monsters out of a folktale very compelling.  Literally words becoming wind.  

After all, I think it can be argued that the entire series is a bit of an homage to myths and folktales and literature.  So what would be a more fitting tribute than creating a monster literally from bedtime stories and mythologies of the inhabitants of your fantasy world?

It would also be a nod to GRRM's self-professed favorite movie, the Forbidden Planet, where the antagonist was a monster created by a machine from the Id of the humans on the planet.

 

[JNR]

7 hours ago, SirArthur said:

I feel we should clarify a few things, when we talk about the NW's knowledge:

1. Who belongs to the NW ? First JNR, as far as I understand it, means the command of the NW, when he talks about them (as a whole).

I think that's a great question and indeed you seem to have identified some good exceptions.  

Bloodraven and Coldhands definitely do know and both do certainly seem to qualify in a sense as NW, though obviously not current ones.

We can add to them whatever number of rangers have encountered the Popsicles, and yet survived, and did not elect to return to service.  I can imagine that there might possibly have been a few. 

However, I think it stands to reason that the Watch has not, for an incredible period of time, known as a military order -- a body of men, chartered with making decisions to defend the realms of men -- that the Popsicles were real.  

Because if it had, that knowledge, and the basis for it, would have come to Benjen as First Ranger, and from him to Ned.  Even if the Watch had fought the Popsicles a thousand years ago, still I'd expect that battle to be remembered.  Its place, its outcome, etc.  Ned has no idea of any such thing.

We can also consider the circumstances of the prologue as... suggestive.  

We know Royce's party was chasing a band of raiders, for nine days, on horseback, riding north by northwest.    

How far is that?  Imagine they only rode 50 miles/daily, which seems low for a chase; that's 450 miles, almost as far north of the Wall as Winterfell is south of it.   We're talking roughly the latitude of Thenn.   It's the most northerly location the story has ever gone in any book so far, unless you count Bran's coma vision.

If the Popsicles came from further north yet than that, I don't think they'd have encountered many people en route.

[Melifeather]

Just a quick aside...I don’t think 50 miles per day on horseback is “low”. On the contrary the pioneers only averaged 10 miles per day, but some of them walked along side the wagons. A single rider could probably ride 20 miles a day, but to achieve 50 miles per day would require galloping which would be hard on the horse if done multiple days in a row. Just saying.

[Tucu]

5 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

That's true even if the current White Walkers are recently created, they could be the same type of golem created during the Long Night.  But I find the possibility that the White Walkers were literally created out of frozen air to resemble monsters out of a folktale very compelling.  Literally words becoming wind.  

After all, I think it can be argued that the entire series is a bit of an homage to myths and folktales and literature.  So what would be a more fitting tribute than creating a monster literally from bedtime stories and mythologies of the inhabitants of your fantasy world?

It would also be a nod to GRRM's self-professed favorite movie, the Forbidden Planet, where the antagonist was a monster created by a machine from the Id of the humans on the planet.

 

Sounds good to me. A cycle of reality to legend back to reality and it certainly gives a different meaning to GRRM "the Sidhe made of ice" description of the WW.

[shizett]

Hi all, I haven't been around for a while and was reading Heresy 208 and something occurred to me.

In GOT, when Othor tries to kill the LC of NW, he is still a brother of NW himself. so a brother will be killing LC in CB. At the end of ADWD that's what happens when Marsh and co. kill Jon. Maybe that is what the Others were planning all this time? Mormont never made it back to CB (or the wall) because the mutiny happened at Craster's Keep, so while he was killed by NW deserters, his blood did not spill in the wall and I was wondering if that is a catalyst for the magic of the wall coming undone.

[Tucu]

2 hours ago, shizett said:

Hi all, I haven't been around for a while and was reading Heresy 208 and something occurred to me.

In GOT, when Othor tries to kill the LC of NW, he is still a brother of NW himself. so a brother will be killing LC in CB. At the end of ADWD that's what happens when Marsh and co. kill Jon. Maybe that is what the Others were planning all this time? Mormont never made it back to CB (or the wall) because the mutiny happened at Craster's Keep, so while he was killed by NW deserters, his blood did not spill in the wall and I was wondering if that is a catalyst for the magic of the wall coming undone.

I see the hit on Mormont more as an attempt to lure the NW out of their safe zone than a real assassination attempt.

[JNR]

On 6/4/2018 at 10:50 PM, Feather Crystal said:

the pioneers only averaged 10 miles per day, but some of them walked along side the wagons. A single rider could probably ride 20 miles a day.

The pioneers, as you point out, had wagons and certainly weren't chasing anybody to bring them to justice.  And a human being walking four miles an hour can walk 20 miles in five hours.

However, let's say the Watch only went ~40 miles per day.   If you reduce the total distance to 350 miles, it's still much further north than the story has ever gone except in Bran's coma dream.

It's also notable that the raiders chose to go there to escape the Watch.  The implication is that these raiders didn't yet know, at that time, that the Popsicles were coming down from the uttermost north and that the far north was therefore the last place they'd be safe.

[SirArthur]

We have discussed the speed and the motivation of the raiders before and as mentioned then ... 10 miles is really slow, especially for experienced travellers. 

And the motivation still remains uncertain, they surely wanted to go somewhere north west, as they escaped through Craster's. But if they wanted to reach a certain point near the shivering sea or something else, we do not know. 

As to their knowledge about the Popsicles: much depends on their association with team Rayder or the Thenns. If it is true that the Thenns couldn't stop them and the raiders knew about this ...

[Matthew.]

I would think that the terrain of the Haunted Forest - both the trees, and the river to the northwest of Craster's Keep according to the map in ASOS -, as well as the risk of being ambushed, would be important moderating factors for rangers traveling on horseback; in addition, we cannot clearly define whether the rangers arrived at Craster's Keep in the evening and only spent the night, or arrived early and spent most of the day there probing for gossip.

Whenever things like this become a topic of conversation, I cannot help but think of...:

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Chronology_and_Distances

Quote

The reason I am never specific about dates and distances is precisely so that people won't sit down and do this sort of thing.

My suggestion would be to put away the ruler and the stopwatch, and just enjoy the story.

The question "how many miles per day could the rangers travel" may not be something that GRRM ever asked himself when writing the Prologue, so there is probably an element of futility in attempting to nail down a location that relates realistically to a particular distance per day; more likely, the number of days was arbitrarily chosen, and the location of the attack itself probably a vaguely defined "somewhere to the northwest of Craster's Keep" within GRRM's head.

[Black Crow]

4 hours ago, Matthew. said:

I would think that the terrain of the Haunted Forest - both the trees, and the river to the northwest of Craster's Keep according to the map in ASOS -, as well as the risk of being ambushed, would be important moderating factors for rangers traveling on horseback; in addition, we cannot clearly define whether the rangers arrived at Craster's Keep in the evening and only spent the night, or arrived early and spent most of the day there probing for gossip.

Whenever things like this become a topic of conversation, I cannot help but think of...:

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Chronology_and_Distances

The question "how many miles per day could the rangers travel" may not be something that GRRM ever asked himself when writing the Prologue, so there is probably an element of futility in attempting to nail down a location that relates realistically to a particular distance per day; more likely, the number of days was arbitrarily chosen, and the location of the attack itself probably a vaguely defined "somewhere to the northwest of Craster's Keep" within GRRM's head.

I would agree with that, the question of speed is moot insofar that when pursing somebody up a road or across an open plain you may be able to put your foot down, but pursuing someone through a forest you need to be careful not to lose the trail - or run into an ambush. In this case moreover the raiders' behaviour while they were still living suggests that they didn't actually know that they were being followed. Neither party was moving at breakneck speed.

[Black Crow]

On 6/4/2018 at 5:37 PM, Frey family reunion said:

But don't we have to ask if these are the same White Walkers that only existed 5 to 8 thousand years ago?  I mean if they are this powerful, where have they been holed up for all this time?  And isn't it interesting that they are so easily identifiable, that Will takes one glance at them and immediately comes to the conclusion that they are the White Walkers of legend, the boogeymen of the north.  Are the folk tales, which Will undoubtedly grew up with, an accurate depiction of the legendary White Walkers, or are these White Walkers created to reflect the folk tales of the legendary White Walkers?

I think that there are a couple of things to consider here. We don't yet know enough about the true nature of the walkers to decide whether they are one an the same as the originals. If we view them as ghosts, as the spirits of ancient Starks given the power to do things with ice, then its possible, but the harvesting of Craster's sons suggests that no matter how old or how recent these sidhe are, they are few in number and need to recruit in order to come out of the woods. Once again though, no matter their antiquity or lack of it, most of us appear to be agreed that they are not themselves a race or tribe, but the Ice equivalent of Mel's shadow babies held together by magic. That then implies someone or something out there is casting that magic and creating those white shadows.

As to who; there might be an equivalent of the mummers' Nights King, but I very much doubt it and might be more inclined to look to the tree-huggers, not of themselves but of the Wood.

[Melifeather]

30 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Once again though, no matter their antiquity or lack of it, most of us appear to be agreed that they are not themselves a race or tribe, but the Ice equivalent of Mel's shadow babies held together by magic. That then implies someone or something out there is casting that magic and creating those white shadows.

Yup. I agree with this, and the next step would be to examine motive.

[Brad Stark]

Westeros is important only because it extends farther North than the other continents.  I suspect something happened in Ashai to create the Others and dragons, and possibly the demons (fire Others?) we keep reading about.   The Others have been in the far North for 10000 years, maybe occasionally going South.  Something happened recently bringing them South,  but they are the same Others that have been around the whole time. 

[Tucu]

9 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Yup. I agree with this, and the next step would be to examine motive.

If we look at the motive from the perspective that the "white cold" and the WW are related but not the same (like Craster does) and mix this with Bran's 3EC dream the answer might be as simple as survival.

We have the 3EC having knowledge about a terrible upcoming magical Winter and access to an array of possible futures via the weirnet. Tweaking events to ensure certain things come to pass to allow for the survival of friendly groups is a reasonable motive; not everyone can be saved in Westeros, but maybe there is a still "a debt that can never be repaid" that links the Others/CoTF/Direwolves/Weirwoods with the Starks.

Quote

Now you know, the crow whispered as it sat on his shoulder. Now you know why you must live.

"Why?" Bran said, not understanding, falling, falling.

Because winter is coming.

Bran looked at the crow on his shoulder, and the crow looked back. It had three eyes, and the third eye was full of a terrible knowledge. Bran looked down. There was nothing below him now but snow and cold and death, a frozen wasteland where jagged blue-white spires of ice waited to embrace him. They flew up at him like spears. He saw the bones of a thousand other dreamers impaled upon their points. He was desperately afraid.

The Starks seem to have a tendency to build everlasting loyalties. This is from the Manderlys, but similar links might apply:

Quote

When we were sore beset and friendless, hounded from our homes and in peril of our lives, the wolves took us in and nourished us and protected us against our enemies. The city is built upon the land they gave us. In return we swore that we should always be their men. Stark men!"

 

[Melifeather]

I reread The Princess and the Queen, or, the Blacks and the Greens last night - GRRM's bloody long short story about the Dance of the Dragons. In the beginning Aegon II was reluctant to accept the crown over his older sister, but was persuaded due to fear for the lives of his mother, wife, and children. The belief that his sister, Rhaenerya would kill his immediate family grew quickly into contempt and hatred. He basically "otherized" his sister. In the end his disassociation of Rhaenerya as “sister” and association of “other” grew to hatred, and ultimately resulted in her death -execution - when he fed her to his dragon.

The World Book suggests that the ancestors of the wildlings were also otherized and forced north to be contained - imprisoned or exiled really - beyond the Wall. Ygritte gave Jon a short history lesson about this long ago split between the First Men tribes:

 “This land belongs to the Watch,” Jon said.

  Her nostrils flared. “No one lives here.”

  “Your raiders drove them off.”

  “They were cowards, then. If they wanted the land they should have stayed and fought.”

  “Maybe they were tired of fighting. Tired of barring their doors every night and wondering if Rattleshirt or someone like him would break them down to carry off their wives. Tired of having their harvests stolen, and any valuables they might have. It’s easier to move beyond the reach of raiders.” But if the Wall should fail, all the north will lie within the reach of raiders.

  “You know nothing, Jon Snow. Daughters are taken, not wives. You’re the ones who steal. You took the whole world, and built the Wall t’ keep the free folk out.”

  “Did we?” Sometimes Jon forgot how wild she was, and then she would remind him. “How did that happen?”

  “The gods made the earth for all men t’ share. Only when the kings come with their crowns and steel swords, they claimed it was all theirs. My trees, they said, you can’t eat them apples. My stream, you can’t fish here. My wood, you’re not t’ hunt. My earth, my water, my castle, my daughter, keep your hands away or I’ll chop ’em off, but maybe if you kneel t’ me I’ll let you have a sniff. You call us thieves, but at least a thief has t’ be brave and clever and quick. A kneeler only has t’ kneel.”

 

Edited to add: I think its telling that Jon thinks to himself that should the Wall fail, all the north will lie within the reach of raiders. This is the heart of the matter and the reason why the wildlings were otherized and forced north in the first place. 

The wildlings know that even though small bands of them can climb over the Wall to raid, they climb back again, because the people south of the Wall would band together against them. How best to remove that threat than to convince the Watch and the people south of the Wall that they share a common enemy? 

The Others of old are so demonized that the Watch and people in general associate the evil acts that they did with white walkers and wights, but forgot the source that created them. Furthermore the white walkers and wights get lumped in with other "creatures" that haven't been seen in thousands of years, namely the Children of the Forest, giants, skinchangers, and wargs. But just because the unseen "creatures" share this one commonality doesn't mean they are all in alliance. The Children refer to the giants as "our brothers and our bane", meaning that while they view the giants as one of the old races pushed beyond the Wall just like themselves (brother), they are not friends and allies (bane). The giants do seem to be allied with Mance and the other wildlng clans, so by association they're all the Children's "bane".

[JNR]

22 hours ago, Matthew. said:

The question "how many miles per day could the rangers travel" may not be something that GRRM ever asked himself when writing the Prologue

Well, you don't have to do any math to see, with certainty, that the Popsicles were encountered at an extreme northern point on the map.  GRRM knew what he was doing when he said the Watch rode nine days and specified north by northwest.

You can also combine that knowledge with Bran's coma vision, which doesn't provide numbers, but is all the same quite clear about just how far north the heart of winter is:

Quote

And he looked past the Wall, past endless forests cloaked in snow, past the frozen shore and the great blue-white rivers of ice and the dead plains where nothing grew or lived. North and north and north he looked, to the curtain of light at the end of the world, and then beyond that curtain. 

"Nothing grew or lived."  Certainly no human beings.  And then much further north even than that.

We sometimes ask where the Popsicles have been, for thousands of years, that the free folk and Watch haven't encountered them... but it seems a curious question given such a direct and obvious possibility as GRRM ponies up here. 

And the reason we encounter the Popsicles now is that they have moved south and the very first thing we find them doing is murdering the free folk they encounter and creating wights. 

Here, too, GRRM seems to have a clear plan in mind to me.

[SirArthur]

17 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Yup. I agree with this, and the next step would be to examine motive.

I was very sure about the shadow comparison until I really thought about the next step yesterday. In my opinion it would not be the search for a motive, but rather the search for more knowledge through easy answerable questions first. And that brought me to LC 13, the Night's King, and his pale woman. Many have speculated she is an Other. My question would be, what Lady 13 is or was, when she really was an Other (within the shadow context). 

[Melifeather]

53 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

I was very sure about the shadow comparison until I really thought about the next step yesterday. In my opinion it would not be the search for a motive, but rather the search for more knowledge through easy answerable questions first. And that brought me to LC 13, the Night's King, and his pale woman. Many have speculated she is an Other. My question would be, what Lady 13 is or was, when she really was an Other (within the shadow context). 

I think a majority of readers understand that “the Others” are more than just the white walker shadows, and would include every race trapped beyond the Wall including the Children of the Forest, the giants, and every tribe of wildling.