Jump to content

Heresy 209 Of Ice and of Fire


Black Crow

Recommended Posts

16 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

6 rangers disappeared with Benjen.  Is Benjen 1 of 6, or did we have 7?  Jafer and Othor were 2, do we know anything about the other 3 or 4?

Benjen plus 6:

Quote

Jon had heard that Benjen Stark was to lead a half-dozen men on a ranging into the haunted forest

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Matthew. said:

Craster lives in a poorly defended compound full of daughters in a culture where they steal wives

Ygritte corrected Jon and said wildlings steal daughters not wives, but Craster "marries" his daughters. At what age, we don't know, but assume as soon as they flower, not leaving much opportunity for there to be any available daughters.

2 hours ago, Matthew. said:

Royce attacked after visiting his compound

Royce wasn't attacked after visiting Craster. He's attacked after Will brings him to where he saw 8 wildlings - 7 sitting or laying on the ground, and 1 up a tree with "far eyes". Its notable that when Will brings Royce to see, they wildlings had disappeared. It's my position that the 8 wildlings became white walkers, otherwise Royce, Will, and Gared should have come across 8 wights.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Matthew. said:

Yes, but that still comes with the caveat that I think GRRM relies on convenient ignorance--and, as you say, coincidence. So, some thoughts...

For one, the wiggle room I'll grant GRRM here is that he has established a context in which the Others are well suited to stealth--they do not leave tracks in the snow, they're compared to shadows and tricks of light, their armor is reflective...and should any rangers happen to catch them in the act and go missing, the default assumption of the Watch is going to be that the missing rangers ran afoul of wildlings. And, explicitly, Mormont's policy is "don't meddle in Craster's business."

Edit: For clarity, my interpretation would be that the Watch believes the sons are dying of exposure, but doesn't actually know what is happening.

Nonetheless, you're right, if the 'Crasters Sons' theory is correct, then the author is asking us to suspend a certain amount of disbelief; yet I think that's also true if everything surrounding Craster's Keep is just misdirection and misinformation--that interpretation comes packed with its own set of overly convenient coincidences. 

From the outset, we are trading decades of Watch ineptitude for decades of wildlings ineptitude...or extraordinary luck or martial prowess on Craster's part. Jon sums it up:

Like Jon, I find that awfully curious.

Craster lives in a poorly defended compound full of daughters in a culture where they steal wives; he's also notorious, as Tormund, Ygritte, and Mance at the least all know of him. He's a friend to the Watch, and has a reputation as a kinslayer. Everything about Craster screams "this is a guy who should have been killed years ago by his fellow wildlngs;" instead he appears to have lived a fairy long life.

Another obverse to the Watch's well maintained ignorance is Craster and his wives maintaining their convictions; have they never discovered a tiny corpse? Sheep dead of exposure, half eaten by animals? Have no wives, like Gilly, been so desperate to save the sons that they've defied Craster and gone into the white cold, only to discover that there's nothing really out there?
_____

Other overly convenient factors, if nothing is actually happening at Craster's Keep--

In a story where "the Others are back" is a major plot element, there's a character practicing a seemingly singular, decades long religion that coincidentally pays obeisance to the Others at the exact same time that the Others have returned, a religion that posits that obeisance keeps his compound safe, and coincidentally, all circumstantial evidence reinforces his belief:

Royce attacked after visiting his compound, Benjen and crew attacked looking for Royce, Othor and Jaffer showing up well southeast of Craster's compound (suggesting Craster's Keep is not too far south to have been attacked by that point), game long fled (fleeing what?) in the lead up to Craster's Keep, the NW being attacked and harried after the Fist, yet going for days afterward without the Others attacking the Keep, without incident until Craster was killed.

In short, while I understand skepticism of taking Craster's Keep at face value, "Craster's Keep as red herring" is also assuming quite a lot of contrivance on the author's part in order to 'sell' the misdirect.

As I've suggested before, trying to do a runner is exactly what I've suggested Craster's mother was up to.

The point about Craster's survival is well made and it suggests that his neighbours were unwilling to go knocking - but why?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Royce wasn't attacked after visiting Craster. He's attacked after Will brings him to where he saw 8 wildlings - 7 sitting or laying on the ground, and 1 up a tree with "far eyes". Its notable that when Will brings Royce to see, they wildlings had disappeared. It's my position that the 8 wildlings became white walkers, otherwise Royce, Will, and Gared should have come across 8 wights.

He'll correct me if I'm wrong but rather I thought Matthew's point is that both the attack on Royce and later on Benjen's party, took place in the vicinity of Craster's, but yet he and his remained untouched

Link to comment
Share on other sites

41 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Ygritte corrected Jon and said wildlings steal daughters not wives, but Craster "marries" his daughters. At what age, we don't know, but assume as soon as they flower, not leaving much opportunity for there to be any available daughters.

I don't know if such a technicality would really serve as a deterrent against attempting to steal Craster's daughters, but that still only explains one specific motive for raiding his compound--other motives being to steal his food, to kill him for giving shelter and information to the Watch, or to kill him just for being generally despicable.
 

41 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Royce wasn't attacked after visiting Craster. He's attacked after Will brings him to where he saw 8 wildlings - 7 sitting or laying on the ground, and 1 up a tree with "far eyes". Its notable that when Will brings Royce to see, they wildlings had disappeared. It's my position that the 8 wildlings became white walkers, otherwise Royce, Will, and Gared should have come across 8 wights.

As BC said, what I mean is that Craster's Keep is somewhere between Castle Black and wherever Royce and co. were attacked, and one might presume it is also in the vicinity of the attack on Benjen--at the least Othor and Jaffer showing up near the Wall suggests that Craster is not outside of the sphere of Other and wight attacks.

I did not mean that Royce was attacked literally moments after visiting Craster, but it is only days (at the most) from wherever the prologue attack occurred:

Quote

"Aye, those three I recall. The lordling no older than one of these pups. Too proud to sleep under my roof, him in his sable cloak and black steel. My wives give him big cow eyes all the same." He turned his squint on the nearest of the women. "Gared says they were chasing raiders. I told him, with a commander that green, best not catch 'em. Gared wasn't half-bad, for a crow. Had less ears than me, that one. The 'bite took 'em, same as mine." Craster laughed. "Now I hear he got no head neither. The 'bite do that too?"

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If my suspicions are true that the wildlings are behind the creation of the white walkers, then they control where the white walkers range, and the cold of the white walkers dictate where the wights go, therefore Craster really does have nothing to fear, because he's a wildling himself. Mance visited Craster, and he may have shared his plans, but Craster - being that he bears a heavy curse - whatever that means - didn't feel compelled to participate. He doesn't want to move south of the Wall, so he didn't - content that he has nothing to fear.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

If my suspicions are true that the wildlings are behind the creation of the white walkers, then they control where the white walkers range, and the cold of the white walkers dictate where the wights go, 

Why would the creator of your WW version need a human and animal mass migration ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

Why would the creator of your WW version need a human and animal mass migration ?

I too believe that some upper layers of the wildlings are involved, but I also take Craster's view that the white cold and the white shadows are separate entities. The WW are tools that can only be deployed when the white cold is available.

The reason for the migration is that the white cold is not survivable in the far North (apart from inside CoTF caves or similar natural protections)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, SirArthur said:

Why would the creator of your WW version need a human and animal mass migration ?

To convince the Watch that the wildlings were not the true threat and unite them against a common foe, and ultimately prevent the southern houses and clans from rising up in arms against them once they were through the Wall.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

I missed this.  Besides knowing she was from Whitetree, what do we know about her?

Basically nothing. As you say, she is said to have come from Whitetree and got Craster by a man of the Nights Watch. The story that Ygritte heard was that she then turned up with him at the Wall and was jeered at and chased off by the sentries. The assumption is that she was just looking for her lover and an entry visa. However, given the business of the curse I can't help wondering whether she was foreshadowing Gilly and running one step ahead of young Craster's brothers. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

To convince the Watch that the wildlings were not the true threat and unite them against a common foe, and ultimately prevent the southern houses and clans from rising up in arms against them once they were through the Wall.

So they move ten of thousand of people to convince an order of a thousend men, guarding a passable wall, to prevent a southern counterattack. Sounds a lot like crackpot for me. 

I can get more or less behind the idea of a beyond the wall unification. And maybe to an extend behind the idea of bringing down the entire 7 kingdoms, just so that they can move through the wall. But I still don't understand why they want to move through the Wall. Even when the long night is coming and it gets cold in the land beyond. Where should the Wildlings find shelter ? At the Wall ? 

So they fake an ancient enemy to survive a long and dark cold, just so that they can unite the "Beyond" and find shelter at the Wall ? Why not unite the "Beyond" with the truth ? And take the Wall and then be done with it ? The southern Lords will hardly move during the long and cold dark. 

I'm sceptical to the idea, because the motives and the effort involved do not add up.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, SirArthur said:

So they move ten of thousand of people to convince an order of a thousend men, guarding a passable wall, to prevent a southern counterattack. Sounds a lot like crackpot for me. 

I can get more or less behind the idea of a beyond the wall unification. And maybe to an extend behind the idea of bringing down the entire 7 kingdoms, just so that they can move through the wall. But I still don't understand why they want to move through the Wall. Even when the long night is coming and it gets cold in the land beyond. Where should the Wildlings find shelter ? At the Wall ? 

So they fake an ancient enemy to survive a long and dark cold, just so that they can unite the "Beyond" and find shelter at the Wall ? Why not unite the "Beyond" with the truth ? And take the Wall and then be done with it ? The southern Lords will hardly move during the long and cold dark. 

I'm sceptical to the idea, because the motives and the effort involved do not add up.

If Mance and his wildlings attacked the Wall and forced their way through, the northern clans would have organized against them and they'd have an even bigger war on their hands. The wildlings want to take back lands that they used to own, namely the Gift, as well as all the north, and more importantly, Winterfell. 

Leaving the Wall up to prevent the wights from progressing south is a very good reason not to use the Horn of Winter, but if the wildlings are the source of the white walkers, they are well equipped to survive winter. The white walkers are soldiers with extreme, specialized gear. Very difficult to defeat without obsidian or Valyrian blades. To gain shelter they only have to take castles and holdfasts as they move south to Winterfell, which they view as their seat. Mance had more ulterior motives for wanting to go to Winterfell than helping Jon with Arya. If he can get down into the lower levels of the crypts he can remove the wards holding their ancient ancestors prisoner. Theon told Stannis that Winterfell is full of ghosts.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

If Mance and his wildlings attacked the Wall and forced their way through, the northern clans would have organized against them and they'd have an even bigger war on their hands. 

As I said, not when the cold is coming. Nobody has time for counter attack then. Stannis' forces already have problems in the snow. There is no need for political manipulation, when there will be no counter attack. 

7 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

The wildlings want to take back lands that they used to own, namely the Gift, as well as all the north, and more importantly, Winterfell. 

Now this gets in awful weird understandings of the term ownership and law. The Wall is how many millenia old now and the Wildlings still think they own the region south of the Wall ? I guess when the children summon the WW to wipe out all the First Men in Westeros, that will find a lot of understanding within the Wildlings. 

Seriously, if this is the belief of the Wildlings, maybe they should emigrate to a place not owned by the children. I would understand it, if GRRM wants to show us the emotional illogic in humans, yet I somehow doubt this will be the story we are told.

Quote

Leaving the Wall up to prevent the wights from progressing south is a very good reason not to use the Horn of Winter, but if the wildlings are the source of the white walkers, they are well equipped to survive winter. The white walkers are soldiers with extreme, specialized gear. Very difficult to defeat without obsidian or Valyrian blades. To gain shelter they only have to take castles and holdfasts as they move south to Winterfell, which they view as their seat. Mance had more ulterior motives for wanting to go to Winterfell than helping Jon with Arya. If he can get down into the lower levels of the crypts he can remove the wards holding their ancient ancestors prisoner. Theon told Stannis that Winterfell is full of ghosts.

Mance's unknown motives are a reason I can see to support your idea of a huge charade. I just don't understand why the Wildlings would need to fake an ancient enemy to reach goals, they can achieve without faking them. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The story is fantastic, but has loopholes in logic.

The wildlings could have climbed the wall near a sealed, abandoned gate and reopen it, or attack Eastwatch with full force instead of Castle Black. Just for example ...

About Craster: his mother is from Whitetree. We have compared the White Walkers to trees now and then. Are they hybrids of heart trees and boys with an obsidian spell?

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

45 minutes ago, alienarea said:

The story is fantastic, but has loopholes in logic.

The wildlings could have climbed the wall near a sealed, abandoned gate and reopen it, or attack Eastwatch with full force instead of Castle Black. Just for example ...

About Craster: his mother is from Whitetree. We have compared the White Walkers to trees now and then. Are they hybrids of heart trees and boys with an obsidian spell?

 

As to the first I agree

As to the second, yes but perhaps not literally. I'm still going with the walkers being the icy equivalent of Mel's shadow-babies. That of course opens the question of who is working the magic to create them and while there's a natural tendency to look for people it may in fact be the hive mind of the trees which the Greeshka/Children aspire to go into

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, alienarea said:

About Craster: his mother is from Whitetree. We have compared the White Walkers to trees now and then. Are they hybrids of heart trees and boys with an obsidian spell?

 

My current bet is that they are mix of the white cold (magical inanimated cold mist) bound to one of the souls/minds that live inside the weirnet.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, SirArthur said:

Now this gets in awful weird understandings of the term ownership and law. The Wall is how many millenia old now and the Wildlings still think they own the region south of the Wall ? I guess when the children summon the WW to wipe out all the First Men in Westeros, that will find a lot of understanding within the Wildlings. 

Seriously, if this is the belief of the Wildlings, maybe they should emigrate to a place not owned by the children. I would understand it, if GRRM wants to show us the emotional illogic in humans, yet I somehow doubt this will be the story we are told.

 

 I base my theory about the lost lands of the wildlings on Ygritte. Her description of kings with crowns and steel swords sound Andal to me: 

Quote

 

“The gods made the earth for all men t’ share. Only when the kings come with their crowns and steel swords, they claimed it was all theirs. My trees, they said, you can’t eat them apples. My stream, you can’t fish here. My wood, you’re not t’ hunt. My earth, my water, my castle, my daughter, keep your hands away or I’ll chop ’em off, but maybe if you kneel t’ me I’ll let you have a sniff. You call us thieves, but at least a thief has t’ be brave and clever and quick. A kneeler only has t’ kneel.”

 

 

 

 

The Children "helped" the Last Hero - and somehow the first Nights Watch - to ride out and defeat the Others, and they build the Wall. Presumably the defeated are the people north of the Wall. The wildlings frequently stress that they "will not kneel". Here's what Val says:  

Quote

 

“Free folk do not kneel,” Val told her.

  “Then they must be knelt,” the queen declared.   

  “Do that, Your Grace, and we will rise again at the first chance,” Val promised. “Rise with blades in hand.”

 

 

 

 

17 hours ago, SirArthur said:

Mance's unknown motives are a reason I can see to support your idea of a huge charade. I just don't understand why the Wildlings would need to fake an ancient enemy to reach goals, they can achieve without faking them. 

 

The white walkers and wights cannot pass the Wall, and neither could 10,000 wildlings all climb over undetected. Sure they could go to one of the undefended castles, but all the other gates have been filled in with rubble and ice. That leaves climbing over. The elderly, weak, or very young would not be physically able enough to climb the 700 foot Wall and rappel down the other side. The far western edge of the Wall is mountainous with a deep gorge, also too treacherous for the general populous of wildlings. Castle Black, and likely Eastwatch, are the only two gates through the Wall where people could ride or walk through.

Mance attacked Castle Black, but was defeated, mainly by Stannis. Jon was treating with Mance when Stannis arrived, so we do not know what the outcome may have been if Stannis had not come.

The wildlings trailed behind the white walkers and wights coming down the Frostfangs following the Milkwater, and were still behind them when they reached the Fist of the First Men, yet by the time they were at the Wall Harma noted that the wights should be behind them. The fighting at the Wall didn't draw any white walkers or wights, neither were the outdoor holding cells north of the entrance attacked. The next report of wights is near Eastwatch. Once the wildlings were allowed through the Wall a broken sword was tossed in one of the carts the Watch had ready: 

Quote

As they passed, each warrior stripped off his treasures and tossed them into one of the carts that the stewards had placed before the gate. Amber pendants, golden torques, jeweled daggers, silver brooches set with gemstones, bracelets, rings, niello cups and golden goblets, warhorns and drinking horns, a green jade comb, a necklace of freshwater pearls … all yielded up and noted down by Bowen Marsh. One man surrendered a shirt of silver scales that had surely been made for some great lord. Another produced a broken sword with three sapphires in the hilt.

 

Ser Waymar Royce's sword had a similar description: 

Quote

Royce slid gracefully from his saddle. He tied the destrier securely to a low-hanging limb, well away from the other horses, and drew his longsword from its sheath. Jewels glittered in its hilt, and the moonlight ran down the shining steel. It was a splendid weapon, castle-forged, and new-made from the look of it.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/11/2018 at 10:44 AM, Matthew. said:

My view of the "Crasters Sons" theory is that it is plausibly built from the text

What you think of as plausible, I think of as a rather flimsy cover story (red herring) that GRRM drummed up. 

If you ask yourself simple questions such as "Where did the first Popsicle come from?" or "Why is is that the entire rest of the free folk doesn't agree with or believe Craster (hence joining Mance) and instead (per Ygritte) considers Craster to be bearing a heavy curse?" no persuasive answer presents itself.  Craster looks instead like an isolated nutjob.

This is rather similar from a narrative standpoint to the cover story GRRM provided for Jon's parentage, except that R+L=J is (IMO) quite a bit more plausible.  

You have to ignore quite a few obvious logical problems to believe R+L=J (example: "How could Ned know at the TOJ that Jon would never grow up to resemble his incredibly recognizable father Rhaegar and thus get them both killed?") but it can't be ruled out either.  Not quite yet.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/11/2018 at 10:57 AM, Brad Stark said:

Craster obviously didn't start giving his first sons to his sons, since they didn't exist yet.

Not sure what this means. If you mean there literally were no Popsicles until Craster started having sons, what was the mechanism by which the first Popsicle was created?  

Do you mean that Craster is secretly a great sorcerer who transformed his early babies into Popsicles... then spent the rest of his life sacrificing all future infants sons to them?  Seems like it would have been simpler not to create them in the first place. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...