Heresy 209 Of Ice and of Fire

[Tucu]

12 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

ALL OF THEM were wraiths. ALL 6.

In the dream his friends rode with him, as they had in life. Proud Martyn Cassel, Jory’s father; faithful Theo Wull; Ethan Glover, who had been Brandon’s squire; Ser Mark Ryswell, soft of speech and gentle of heart; the crannogman, Howland Reed; Lord Dustin on his great red stallion. Ned had known their faces as well as he knew his own once, but the years leech at a man’s memories, even those he has vowed never to forget. In the dream they were only shadows, grey wraiths on horses made of mist.

In Ned's mind there is little doubt that his companions (not counting HR) died in the encounter

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"I gave them over to the silent sisters, to be sent north to Winterfell. Jory would want to lie beside his grandfather."

It would have to be his grandfather, for Jory's father was buried far to the south. Martyn Cassel had perished with the rest. Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed. He did not think it omened well that he should dream that dream again after so many years.

 

[Melifeather]

5 hours ago, SirArthur said:

ALL OF THEM were wraiths. ALL 6.

In the dream his friends rode with him, as they had in life. Proud Martyn Cassel, Jory’s father; faithful Theo Wull; Ethan Glover, who had been Brandon’s squire; Ser Mark Ryswell, soft of speech and gentle of heart; the crannogman, Howland Reed; Lord Dustin on his great red stallion. Ned had known their faces as well as he knew his own once, but the years leech at a man’s memories, even those he has vowed never to forget. In the dream they were only shadows, grey wraiths on horses made of mist.

Howland is included in the list of wraiths! Very sharp eye, SerArthur! I have missed that detail through multiple rereads! Oh my. I wonder what we are to make of that?

[Melifeather]

5 hours ago, Tucu said:

In Ned's mind there is little doubt that his companions (not counting HR) died in the encounter

 

I agree. Ned does confirm while awake that all of his men died, but that Howland rode away with him. I was commenting on the detail that in Ned's dream Howland was also a wraith. It could be interpreted that by the time Ned began having this dream, Howland was also - in Ned's opinion - dead. I think many readers suspect Howland became a greenseer, and maybe Dunk's dream of Egg being buried alive is kind of a prophetic confirmation?

[Tucu]

27 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I agree. Ned does confirm while awake that all of his men died, but that Howland rode away with him. I was commenting on the detail that in Ned's dream Howland was also a wraith. It could be interpreted that by the time Ned began having this dream, Howland was also - in Ned's opinion - dead. I think many readers suspect Howland became a greenseer, and maybe Dunk's dream of Egg being buried alive is kind of a prophetic confirmation?

It is suspicious that HR never left the Neck after Robert's rebellion (according to the app). Instead of a greenseer I think that he finished his training/transformation into a green man; they are probably another form of inhuman like the WW, shadow assassins, Coldhand-type undead, Melisandre-type undead,etc

[SirArthur]

6 hours ago, Tucu said:

In Ned's mind there is little doubt that his companions (not counting HR) died in the encounter

26 minutes ago, Tucu said:

It is suspicious that HR never left the Neck after Robert's rebellion (according to the app). Instead of a greenseer I think that he finished his training/transformation into a green man; they are probably another form of inhuman like the WW, shadow assassins, Coldhand-type undead, Melisandre-type undead,etc

Ned did dream the wraith dream again after so many years. Whatever reason we make up for the state of cranogman Reed, the state of Reed must have been the same when he first had the dream. 

 

 

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, SirArthur said:

Ned did dream the wraith dream again after so many years. Whatever reason we make up for the state of cranogman Reed, the state of Reed must have been the same when he first had the dream.

This is very interesting indeed!  We know Howland was with Ned when he found Lyanna and we know that Ned would have died at the ToJ if it wasn't for Howland and we know that Howland has two kids to whom he has told the story of the KotLT.  How old are Meera and Jojen?

Edit:

Quote

Meera has been taught by her father to fight with a net and a three pronged frog spear. She is a fine hunter, able to easily spear fish. She was able to defeat Summer in mock combat with her weapons by entangling the direwolf in her net.

 

[Tucu]

The Reeds are 15 and 13 in AGoT.

We don't know when Ned started having those dreams and we don't know if any details have changed.

[LynnS]

8 minutes ago, Tucu said:

The Reeds are 15 and 13 in AGoT.

We don't know when Ned started having those dreams and we don't know if any details have changed.

At the very least we know that Howland was alive long enough to train Meera.  Ned dreams of his companions when they were alive, so that would include Howland.  However, if Howland changed his identity at some point; he could very well be dead as far as Ned is concerned.  That is usually how someone is 'disappeared' in this story.  When Rob attempts to contact the Crannogmen; is there any mention of Howland?  I don't remember.  I recall that Bran knows nothing about Howland until Meera tells him the story.

[Matthew.]

48 minutes ago, LynnS said:

However, if Howland changed his identity at some point; he could very well be dead as far as Ned is concerned.  That is usually how someone is 'disappeared' in this story.  When Rob attempts to contact the Crannogmen; is there any mention of Howland? 

Robb sends word to Howland Reed (or believes he has, anyway) in AGOT that he wants the crannogment to bleed the Lannisters if they attempt to push into the Neck, so House Stark is operating under the assumption that he is still alive; Jojen also says that it is Howland that sent them to Winterfell, after he told his father about his dream about the Winged Wolf and the crow.
 

2 hours ago, Tucu said:

It is suspicious that HR never left the Neck after Robert's rebellion (according to the app). Instead of a greenseer I think that he finished his training/transformation into a green man; they are probably another form of inhuman like the WW, shadow assassins, Coldhand-type undead, Melisandre-type undead,etc

I'm inclined toward this interpretation of Howland's absence as well, that he has hidden himself away because his present appearance would be startling to non-crannogmen; I'll repeat a comparison I've made previously, and say that I think the Green Men are to earth/verdure/life as the Others are to ice/blight/death--as you say, a different form of life, and not just men wearing greenery and headdresses. 

[Brad Stark]

Thinking back to my friends in high school, they are different people now, so seeing them as they were 25 years ago in a dream, they might appear as wraiths or otherworldly.  Just more evidence not to take the dream literally. Also evidence the dream doesn't tell us anything about who is dead or alive.

As to Dustin's bones, I still can't figure out why Ned would return the horse but leave the bones in Dorne.  Dustin being alive and faking his death, or some sort of necromancy are tinfoil hat theories,  but I can't come up with better.  What else could happen to bones that prevent returning them?  Obviously,  he died violently and there'd be damage, but that would be expected. 

[Melifeather]

16 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

Robb sends word to Howland Reed (or believes he has, anyway) in AGOT that he wants the crannogment to bleed the Lannisters if they attempt to push into the Neck, so House Stark is operating under the assumption that he is still alive; Jojen also says that it is Howland that sent them to Winterfell, after he told his father about his dream about the Winged Wolf and the crow.
 

I'm inclined toward this interpretation of Howland's absence as well, that he has hidden himself away because his present appearance would be startling to non-crannogmen; I'll repeat a comparison I've made previously, and say that I think the Green Men are to earth/verdure/life as the Others are to ice/blight/death--as you say, a different form of life, and not just men wearing greenery and headdresses. 

I’m nodding my head in agreement with your conclusion that Green Men would be the different sort of life for those who work earth magic. It would also be an explanation for the ancient story that Asha recalls about fighting trees. Here’s the cue for whompin weirwoods to make an appearance! 

12 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

Thinking back to my friends in high school, they are different people now, so seeing them as they were 25 years ago in a dream, they might appear as wraiths or otherworldly.  Just more evidence not to take the dream literally. Also evidence the dream doesn't tell us anything about who is dead or alive.

As to Dustin's bones, I still can't figure out why Ned would return the horse but leave the bones in Dorne.  Dustin being alive and faking his death, or some sort of necromancy are tinfoil hat theories,  but I can't come up with better.  What else could happen to bones that prevent returning them?  Obviously,  he died violently and there'd be damage, but that would be expected. 

This has also bothered me as well, and likely what chaps Lady Dustin’s hide too is that Ned brought Lyanna home, but none of his men. Unless, perhaps, Lyanna wasn’t found dying so far from home?

[Matthew.]

I don't know that Eddard's choice to bury his companions, rather than going the extra mile as he did for Lyanna, is an oddity that demands a non-mundane explanation. That's one of Lady Dustin's grievances--Eddard made sure Lyanna was buried in her proper place, but wasn't as considerate toward the families that had also suffered losses during the excursion into Dorne.

Furthermore, Eddard is with Lyanna when she died, and she - as Eddard tells Robert - said she wanted to come home to be buried alongside Brandon and Rickard, so there's the added layer that Eddard was not just doing something for himself, but fulfilling one of Lyanna's final wishes.

This is a passage that I always remember regarding Eddard:

Quote

That brought a bitter twist to Ned's mouth. "Brandon. Yes. Brandon would know what to do. He always did. It was all meant for Brandon. You, Winterfell, everything. He was born to be a King's Hand and a father to queens. I never asked for this cup to pass to me."

It's a rare moment where he loses his composure, and an important reminder of how suddenly House Stark fell into catastrophe, and Eddard found himself thrust into a position for which he had not been prepared; a young Eddard who was new to his lordship making a choice that Lady Dustin views as inconsiderate doesn't strike me as uncharacteristic of the man that Eddard might have been at that point in time.

[Tucu]

The silent sisters run a bone delivery service, so it sounds weird that an important lord is not handled by them (even during war). For example when Lord Cerwyn dies in Harrenhal the silent sisters take his bones.

[SirArthur]

33 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

As to Dustin's bones, I still can't figure out why Ned would return the horse but leave the bones in Dorne.  Dustin being alive and faking his death, or some sort of necromancy are tinfoil hat theories,  but I can't come up with better.  What else could happen to bones that prevent returning them?  Obviously,  he died violently and there'd be damage, but that would be expected. 

The only idea I get out of this is the assumption that there are no bones left or that they are mixed with more important bones. There is this whole theory how Ned brought down the tower of Joy with wildfire, because you can't bring down a tower on your own. For me this is far too speculative, yet it remains a possibility. 

[Matthew.]

43 minutes ago, Tucu said:

The silent sisters run a bone delivery service, so it sounds weird that an important lord is not handled by them (even during war). For example when Lord Cerwyn dies in Harrenhal the silent sisters take his bones.

That's true, but the way the story is told also suggests that Dayne wasn't brought to Starfell, and nothing was done to return Hightower or Whent to their homes either; put another way, it's not that I don't think there's potential for something crazy to have happened to the bodies - and I like the suggestion that Howland's magic might have been a factor - it's just that I also don't think that the story as written is odd, or that the combatants being buried rather than sent home needs an explanation.

A potential problem is the difficulty of establishing the terrain surrounding the ToJ (how deeply nestled is it in the Red Mountains?), how logistically feasible it would have been for the bodies to be moved, whether Lyanna was present, whether she died at the ToJ or at Starfall, etc.; the way I read the passage, Eddard's grief over the whole situation is fresh, and he personally prepared the cairns for friend and foe alike because it was what felt appropriate at the time, just as taking down the tower seems to have felt appropriate. 

[Tucu]

2 hours ago, Matthew. said:

That's true, but the way the story is told also suggests that Dayne wasn't brought to Starfell, and nothing was done to return Hightower or Whent to their homes either; put another way, it's not that I don't think there's potential for something crazy to have happened to the bodies - and I like the suggestion that Howland's magic might have been a factor - it's just that I also don't think that the story as written is odd, or that the combatants being buried rather than sent home needs an explanation.

A potential problem is the difficulty of establishing the terrain surrounding the ToJ (how deeply nestled is it in the Red Mountains?), how logistically feasible it would have been for the bodies to be moved, whether Lyanna was present, whether she died at the ToJ or at Starfall, etc.; the way I read the passage, Eddard's grief over the whole situation is fresh, and he personally prepared the cairns for friend and foe alike because it was what felt appropriate at the time, just as taking down the tower seems to have felt appropriate. 

If GRRM had not brought back the Lord Dustin bones again in the Theon chapters I would probably just forgotten about this oddity. However GRRM is telling us that not bringing the bones was enough to cause Lady Dustin to hate Ned and maybe side with the Boltons (pending confirmation on which side of the northern conspiracy she is now).

[SirArthur]

21 minutes ago, Tucu said:

If GRRM had not brought back the Lord Dustin bones again in the Theon chapters I would probably just forgotten about this oddity. However GRRM is telling us that not bringing the bones was enough to cause Lady Dustin to hate Ned and maybe side with the Boltons (pending confirmation on which side of the northern conspiracy she is now).

Even then I would just paint Lady Dustin in a certain light. There was however no reason to write that letter with the Lord Dustin sigil. Lord Dustin has been mentioned one too many times. 

[Brad Stark]

3 hours ago, SirArthur said:

The only idea I get out of this is the assumption that there are no bones left or that they are mixed with more important bones. There is this whole theory how Ned brought down the tower of Joy with wildfire, because you can't bring down a tower on your own. For me this is far too speculative, yet it remains a possibility. 

Another tinfoiled theory that works,  Ned's side was losing badly and Howard blew up the tower with wildfire, burning his dead friends and live foes.  

[Brad Stark]

3 hours ago, Matthew. said:

That's true, but the way the story is told also suggests that Dayne wasn't brought to Starfell, and nothing was done to return Hightower or Whent to their homes either; put another way, it's not that I don't think there's potential for something crazy to have happened to the bodies - and I like the suggestion that Howland's magic might have been a factor - it's just that I also don't think that the story as written is odd, or that the combatants being buried rather than sent home needs an explanation.

A potential problem is the difficulty of establishing the terrain surrounding the ToJ (how deeply nestled is it in the Red Mountains?), how logistically feasible it would have been for the bodies to be moved, whether Lyanna was present, whether she died at the ToJ or at Starfall, etc.; the way I read the passage, Eddard's grief over the whole situation is fresh, and he personally prepared the cairns for friend and foe alike because it was what felt appropriate at the time, just as taking down the tower seems to have felt appropriate. 

I can't imagine any terrain that would prevent returning bones.  We know the tower wasn't at the bottom of a deep pit, and towers are usually high up and probably somewhere people could walk to without mountaineering equipment. 

[alienarea]

After years of arguing I currently assume the following:

It was seven against three at the ToJ [Lyanna was not there because either servants were required to feed baby Jon or he would have died from starvation while Ned build the cairns. Also, imagine Ned and Howland riding into Starfall with a crying baby Jon and a decomposing Lyanna].

Only Ned and Howland survived the fight. Ned builds the cairns for the fallen. Assumption: when you die in battle you get buried where you fell.

Ned and Howland find Lyanna elsewhere [most likely in Starfall when they return Arthur Dayne's sword].

Lyanna dies in child bed and asks to be buried at Winterfell.

No mysteries. Pretty straight forward.