Heresy 209 Of Ice and of Fire

[SirArthur]

18 hours ago, Tucu said:

Ned is not a shadow in his dream (neither are the KGs). The she-wolf was dead.

I don't know man. The "they" reference in the dream is tricky, as the list of Ned's companions seems to be in between. Maybe Ned doesn't count, but for the idea of Ned not being a shadow, I somehow miss the clear reference. Let me drop the list of friends from the text:

Quote

In the dream his friends rode with him, as they had in life. [...]
In the dream they were only shadows, grey wraiths on horses made of mist.
They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life.

What is this "they" ? A reference to Ned and his friends ( the seven) or a reference to the list of friends (in [...] brackets) )
 

And as for mommy wolf, I mean somehow ghost Howland Reed counts in the shadow dream but dead mommy wolf does not count ? And then mommy wolf delivers the 6 puppets, but there can't be a mommy "Other" because .... ? That's what I mean with selective reading, it sure looks that way, but if I map one instance to another, the 6+1 fits better.

[Tucu]

23 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

I don't know man. The "they" reference in the dream is tricky, as the list of Ned's companions seems to be in between. Maybe Ned doesn't count, but for the idea of Ned not being a shadow, I somehow miss the clear reference. Let me drop the list of friends from the text:

What is this "they" ? A reference to Ned and his friends ( the seven) or a reference to the list of friends (in [...] brackets) )
 

And as for mommy wolf, I mean somehow ghost Howland Reed counts in the shadow dream but dead mommy wolf does not count ? And then mommy wolf delivers the 6 puppets, but there can't be a mommy "Other" because .... ? That's what I mean with selective reading, it sure looks that way, but if I map one instance to another, the 6+1 fits better.

A bit more context on that quote that highlights that in that paragraph "they" are his friends:

Quote

Ned had known their faces as well as he knew his own once, but the years leech at a man's memories, even those he has vowed never to forget. In the dream they were only shadows, grey wraiths on horses made of mist.

 

[Black Crow]

3 hours ago, alienarea said:

A bit off topic, but the whole Tower of Joy scene always came across to me as GRRM recreating the opening scene of "Once upon a time in the West" with swords instead of guns.

 

Indeed and in the past I've also pointed out the similarities with the early duel scene in The Three Musketeers - which isn't to say that the opener to Once upon a Time in the West was itself based on the The Three Musketeers.

The point of this being that whilst GRRM may have looked to either or both for his inspiration what he was recreating wasn't a chance encounter on the road or a last desperate defence, but a formal pre-agreed rencounter.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Indeed and in the past I've also pointed out the similarities with the early duel scene in The Three Musketeers - which isn't to say that the opener to Once upon a Time in the West was itself based on the The Three Musketeers.

The point of this being that whilst GRRM may have looked to either or both for his inspiration what he was recreating wasn't a chance encounter on the road or a last desperate defence, but a formal pre-agreed rencounter.

An agreed upon encounter with Ned Stark?  Why did Robert and Ned have a falling out before the encounter at the ToJ?  Were the KG offered a pardon, which they refused?

[Brad Stark]

5 hours ago, Black Crow said:

But what if its the mother's blood, not the father's which is important?

Very hard to disprove,  since we don't have surnames tracking female lines and we can only go back a few generations.  

But take Shireen, Selyse was a Florent.  Her sister was the mother of Edrik Storm.  We don't know their maternal lines, but it is unlikely if we traced this back,  we'd end up with a Targaryen.

Mel only shows proven interest in Targaryen blood,  if Jon is a Targ.  Mance's son being wanted by Mel is Jon's theory.   Craster's blood being important is my theory.  Maybe it is only Targ blood that is special. 

[Black Crow]

37 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

Very hard to disprove,  since we don't have surnames tracking female lines and we can only go back a few generations.  

But take Shireen, Selyse was a Florent.  Her sister was the mother of Edrik Storm.  We don't know their maternal lines, but it is unlikely if we traced this back,  we'd end up with a Targaryen.

Mel only shows proven interest in Targaryen blood,  if Jon is a Targ.  Mance's son being wanted by Mel is Jon's theory.   Craster's blood being important is my theory.  Maybe it is only Targ blood that is special. 

More like skin-changing blood being important, but I'd question whether people like Mel actually appreciate that, ie they know that bloodline X is important but don't know why and so ignore the fact that bloodline Y might be equally important

[Black Crow]

54 minutes ago, LynnS said:

An agreed upon encounter with Ned Stark?  Why did Robert and Ned have a falling out before the encounter at the ToJ?  Were the KG offered a pardon, which they refused?

Well if you read the passage innocent of any excitement over the possible involvement of Lyanna, who isn't even mentioned in the exchange, that's pretty well exactly what happens.

The three knights are waiting by the tower, which feels like a rendezvous rather than the Alamo.

The posse rides up, and the sheriff offers them the chance to surrender

They refuse, because surrendering is for wimps

They then fight to the death because they are the last holdouts who don't want to surrender, not because they are blocking a rescue attempt. What troubles Lord Eddard is that the fight was futile and pointless and that his friends died needlessly.

[LynnS]

Yes, I agree with this of course.  My question is more about Ned riding out to meet them because they had already refused the pardon; which was then offered a second time.   Specifically, the rendezvous was agreed upon in advance.  Except for the fact that the KG are outnumbered; the meeting has the form of a trial by combat.  But why did Ned go to meet them with his 6 good companions when Robert could easily have sent armed men to finish them off.  Why did Ned let the god's decide?  Did Ned prevail over Robert because Arthur Dayne deserved an honorable death?  Well, there are no answers, but that's what goes through my head.  

[Melifeather]

6 hours ago, SirArthur said:

I don't know man. The "they" reference in the dream is tricky, as the list of Ned's companions seems to be in between. Maybe Ned doesn't count, but for the idea of Ned not being a shadow, I somehow miss the clear reference. Let me drop the list of friends from the text:

What is this "they" ? A reference to Ned and his friends ( the seven) or a reference to the list of friends (in [...] brackets) )
 

And as for mommy wolf, I mean somehow ghost Howland Reed counts in the shadow dream but dead mommy wolf does not count ? And then mommy wolf delivers the 6 puppets, but there can't be a mommy "Other" because .... ? That's what I mean with selective reading, it sure looks that way, but if I map one instance to another, the 6+1 fits better.

I agree the “theys” and “yets” are very important, because Ned is comparing the dream details to the actual events that occurred. Readers interpret what’s real or not based upon their preferrences and what supports their own theories and understanding. 

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Well if you read the passage innocent of any excitement over the possible involvement of Lyanna, who isn't even mentioned in the exchange, that's pretty well exactly what happens.

The three knights are waiting by the tower, which feels like a rendezvous rather than the Alamo.

The posse rides up, and the sheriff offers them the chance to surrender

They refuse, because surrendering is for wimps

They then fight to the death because they are the last holdouts who don't want to surrender, not because they are blocking a rescue attempt. What troubles Lord Eddard is that the fight was futile and pointless and that his friends died needlessly.

I can see Ned being sent out by Robert to deal with insurgents much like Ned sent out Beric Dondarrion, however it seems questionable since Ned and Robert had a falling out over the murders of Elia and her children immediately prior to Ned leaving Kings Landing. Ned’s departure seems more like “quitting” Robert’s cause akin to when Ned quit as Robert’s Hand...a quarrel that lead to a separation...even if temporary.

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Yes, I agree with this of course.  My question is more about Ned riding out to meet them because they had already refused the pardon; which was then offered a second time.   Specifically, the rendezvous was agreed upon in advance.  Except for the fact that the KG are outnumbered; the meeting has the form of a trial by combat.  But why did Ned go to meet them with his 6 good companions when Robert could easily have sent armed men to finish them off.  Why did Ned let the god's decide?  Did Ned prevail over Robert because Arthur Dayne deserved an honorable death?  Well, there are no answers, but that's what goes through my head.  

A trial by combat is either one on one, or seven against seven. This is according to the “rules” as outlined in The Hedge Knight. 

[Matthew.]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

Except for the fact that the KG are outnumbered; the meeting has the form of a trial by combat.  But why did Ned go to meet them with his 6 good companions when Robert could easily have sent armed men to finish them off.

My interpretation is that Robert had no idea in advance where the remaining KG (much less Lyanna) were to be found, and had no input in Eddard's decision to head into Dorne; furthermore, GRRM has confirmed in one of the SSMs that no armies, Northern or otherwise, went into Dorne during Robert's Rebellion, so I'm comfortable with suggesting that Eddard knew exactly where he was heading when he went into the Red Mountains, and his companions (and the size of his party) were chosen to emphasize stealth and secrecy.

I believe Eddard was either contacted by people from Starfall, or messengers sent by the KG. As you say, it doesn't exactly look like a traditional trial by combat, so whatever Eddard was up to, it wasn't some code of honor thing where he was trying to give the KG a "proper" chance to either surrender or be sent off--it's still 7 vs. 3.

To return to my suggestion above, I don't think Eddard's companions were chosen because of any inherent (from Eddard's perspective) appeal in the number seven, or even specifically because of martial prowess--IMO, Eddard brought the men that he felt he could trust to keep their mouths shut about what they would find in Dorne. In particular, after the Sack of King's Landing, I think it was very important to Eddard that Robert and Tywin be kept in the dark.

With that in mind, I think that both the remaining KG and Starfall were involved in either the conspiracy to conceal a pregnant Lyanna, or the supposed conspiracy to swap Aegon VI, or perhaps both; either way, I don't think this was just about dealing with the last of the KG.

Edit: The reason I include the Aegon VI angle is because of a different SSM, in which GRRM says that Ashara Dayne was one of Elia's companions in King's Landing, further adding that she wasn't "nailed to the floor in Starfall;" I believe this puts her in a prime position to be involved in any conspiracy to save Aegon VI, and depending on how things played out at Harrenhal, there may have been a degree of trust between Ashara and Eddard.

[alienarea]

3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Well if you read the passage innocent of any excitement over the possible involvement of Lyanna, who isn't even mentioned in the exchange, that's pretty well exactly what happens.

The three knights are waiting by the tower, which feels like a rendezvous rather than the Alamo.

The posse rides up, and the sheriff offers them the chance to surrender

They refuse, because surrendering is for wimps

They then fight to the death because they are the last holdouts who don't want to surrender, not because they are blocking a rescue attempt. What troubles Lord Eddard is that the fight was futile and pointless and that his friends died needlessly.

Fully agree.

If Ned had found Lyanna before the ToJ, I don't think he would have fought himself.

[Black Crow]

11 hours ago, alienarea said:

Fully agree.

If Ned had found Lyanna before the ToJ, I don't think he would have fought himself.

There are those who will argue that they fought because Lyanna was in the tower, but to my mind that would remove much of the bitterness. The dream was triggered by regret over the pointless fight with Jaime's men and the deaths of his friends. It might further be argued of course that it was pointless because Lyanna was dying anyway but that isn't the tone of the rencounter at all. Dustin and the rest did not die in a noble cause

[Melifeather]

I wonder if Lyanna was riding with Ned? I think many forget that she liked sword fighting as much as her brothers, and that Arya's training was Ned's attempt to prepare Arya to defend herself better than perhaps Lyanna was? There's something there. Added to that is the parallel of the attack on Myrcella by Gerold Dayne (Darkstar). Is it possible that Ned found Lyanna and that she rode with Ned and his men to return Arthur Dayne's sword, was injured in the fighting at the tower of joy, but didn't die until days later after the wound mortified?

[Tucu]

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I wonder if Lyanna was riding with Ned? I think many forget that she liked sword fighting as much as her brothers, and that Arya's training was Ned's attempt to prepare Arya to defend herself better than perhaps Lyanna was? There's something there. Added to that is the parallel of the attack on Myrcella by Gerold Dayne (Darkstar). Is it possible that Ned found Lyanna and that she rode with Ned and his men to return Arthur Dayne's sword, was injured in the fighting at the tower of joy, but didn't die until days later after the wound mortified?

I am contemplating the possibility of Ned having to go into a killing spree to keep his promises to Lyanna. To prevent a "Someone told. Someone always tells" scenario everyone that knew the details on Lyanna's story had to die or make an trustworthy oath (like the "for ice and fire" part of the Reed's oath). This would be Ned's "The things I do for love" phase.

[Frey family reunion]

On 6/24/2018 at 10:10 AM, Black Crow said:

Well if you read the passage innocent of any excitement over the possible involvement of Lyanna, who isn't even mentioned in the exchange, that's pretty well exactly what happens.

The three knights are waiting by the tower, which feels like a rendezvous rather than the Alamo.

The posse rides up, and the sheriff offers them the chance to surrender

They refuse, because surrendering is for wimps

They then fight to the death because they are the last holdouts who don't want to surrender, not because they are blocking a rescue attempt. What troubles Lord Eddard is that the fight was futile and pointless and that his friends died needlessly.

While what you say is reasonable, I think there has to be more to the encounter than Eddard and company rounding up the last of the Targaryen soldiers.  If you are going to tease a matter of some importance, like Lyanna dying giving birth to Jon in the toj, and if the tease turns out to be a misdirect, the true significance of the tower better be of equal or greater import than the misdirect.   

If the Kingsguards were given one last task, to participate in the sacrifice of children to give rise to The Dragon, than my thought is that they would fulfill their oath if necessary but would probably prefer instead to die an honorable death rather than see the task accomplished.  In which case, I think you’re right, this was a planned encounter.  The Kingsguards knew that they were honor bound to see this through, but they hoped for an honorable death so this last task would remain unfulfilled.  Eddard and company, however, hoped instead for them to surrender the children, without bloodshed, but sadly came to the realization that it was to be the final battle against the Targaryen regime.

[Tucu]

7 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

While what you say is reasonable, I think there has to be more to the encounter than Eddard and company rounding up the last of the Targaryen soldiers.  If you are going to tease a matter of some importance, like Lyanna dying giving birth to Jon in the toj, and if the tease turns out to be a misdirect, the true significance of the tower better be of equal or greater import than the misdirect.   

If the Kingsguards were given one last task, to participate in the sacrifice of children to give rise to The Dragon, than my thought is that they would fulfill their oath if necessary but would probably prefer instead to die an honorable death rather than see the task accomplished.  In which case, I think you’re right, this was a planned encounter.  The Kingsguards knew that they were honor bound to see this through, but they hoped for an honorable death so this last task would remain unfulfilled.  Eddard and company, however, hoped instead for them to surrender the children, without bloodshed, but sadly came to the realization that it was to be the final battle against the Targaryen regime.

I am not sure if that is compatible with Ned not hating Rhaegar. If he had ordered the burning of children Ned would probably have him in the same group as Tywin, Clegane or Lorch. Unless the oath to acomplish the task was to Aerys.

[Brad Stark]

On 6/24/2018 at 11:10 AM, Black Crow said:

Well if you read the passage innocent of any excitement over the possible involvement of Lyanna, who isn't even mentioned in the exchange, that's pretty well exactly what happens.

The three knights are waiting by the tower, which feels like a rendezvous rather than the Alamo.

The posse rides up, and the sheriff offers them the chance to surrender

They refuse, because surrendering is for wimps

They then fight to the death because they are the last holdouts who don't want to surrender, not because they are blocking a rescue attempt. What troubles Lord Eddard is that the fight was futile and pointless and that his friends died needlessly.

While we agree we can't take the dream literally,  they refused to surrender because of their vows, not because they didn't want to be wimps.  I think this part is true,  at least we have no evidence it isn't. 

So what did they vow to do?  Certainly not to sit around 1000 miles from the war and die needlessly after it was over. 

Conventional reasoning is they were there because of Lyanna,  but if they weren't,  they had to have another reason. 

None of this means Lyanna had to be at the tower the same time the fight was.  But if not, why wouldn't Ned just take Lyanna home?  Why fight at all?  If this was just a last round up of those who wouldn't serve Robert,  why send Ned and trusted friends secretetly instead of a military force?  And why would they be in Dorne?

I hate saying we are overthinking things (because that is all we can do until GRRM publishes something) but the conventional explanation makes more sense than any of the  more elaborate ideas.

[SirArthur]

Maybe it was just me and I am a big dummy, but when I first read the books, I always assumed I was reading a fantasy story and not a love story. For me Rhaegar was the harper, who weaved his song into magic and did something with it. And the tower of joy was just a place, where he loved to play his harp. And the Others are connected to Rhaegar playing his magical song. 

[Matthew.]

59 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

So what did they vow to do?  Certainly not to sit around 1000 miles from the war and die needlessly after it was over. 

I have to agree, and I think one can read between the lines when they are probed about not being present for the Trident, the Sack, or at Dragonstone that they are where they are because they're following orders--and, even now, they feel that they are still fulfilling the spirit of their vow.

This is not just a refusal to flee or bend the knee; while they may not be running off to help Willem Darry protect Viserys, in nestling themselves in the Red Mountains, they're not exactly putting themselves front and center in the war effort to make a brave last stand either. They were at the ToJ because being there had some significance to their final orders.

They may have been outnumbered, but they nearly won the day anyway; the KG weren't men waiting to die, and Eddard's crew was not an army mopping up the last business of Robert's Rebellion--to reiterate, it was a small crew of trusted companions, all Northern.  

[Melifeather]

4 hours ago, Tucu said:

I am not sure if that is compatible with Ned not hating Rhaegar. If he had ordered the burning of children Ned would probably have him in the same group as Tywin, Clegane or Lorch. Unless the oath to acomplish the task was to Aerys.

4 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

While what you say is reasonable, I think there has to be more to the encounter than Eddard and company rounding up the last of the Targaryen soldiers.  If you are going to tease a matter of some importance, like Lyanna dying giving birth to Jon in the toj, and if the tease turns out to be a misdirect, the true significance of the tower better be of equal or greater import than the misdirect.   

If the Kingsguards were given one last task, to participate in the sacrifice of children to give rise to The Dragon, than my thought is that they would fulfill their oath if necessary but would probably prefer instead to die an honorable death rather than see the task accomplished.  In which case, I think you’re right, this was a planned encounter.  The Kingsguards knew that they were honor bound to see this through, but they hoped for an honorable death so this last task would remain unfulfilled.  Eddard and company, however, hoped instead for them to surrender the children, without bloodshed, but sadly came to the realization that it was to be the final battle against the Targaryen regime.

I have to agree with Tucu above. Ned seemed to approve of Rhaegar, so I don't think Rhaegar was sacrificing children, but I do think someone may have been trying to resurrect Rhaegar much like Dany wished to resurrect Drogo.

Maybe the Kingsguard arrived to the Trident too late to fight along side Rhaegar, but found his body lying in the water dead? Or Rhaegar's body was allowed to be taken by "someone" - (who would be left - his mother) - presumably to cremate, but then the Kingsguard were entrusted to take the body through the Boneway to Dorne in a reversal of when the Young Dragon, Daeron Targaryen was slain in the Boneway and brought back.

The Boneway is a major pass between Dorne and the Stormlands. The Dornish side is guarded by House Yronwood. It seems hinted that Daeron's body passed through The Weeping Town, which has three interesting sounding taverns: the Broken Shield, the Loon, and the Drunken Dornishman. Maybe these are nicknames for the three Kingsguard that failed to protect Rhaegar? The Boneway also ends at Summerhal, which we know was important to Rhaegar, and the site of where King Aegon V tried to hatch dragons and ended in tragedy. From the wiki:

Quote

 

The Young Dragon achieved victories along the Boneway while Lord Alyn Velaryon dealt with the Planky Town and the Greenblood. Thinking the Dornish were again willing to submit, Daeron met with them under a peace banner in 161 AC. The eighteen-year-old king was assassinated by Dornishmen, however, with three knights of the Kingsguard slain—including Ser Olyvar Oakheart—one yielding, and Prince Aemon the Dragonknight captured, though Aemon managed to slay two of the betrayers before being taken into custody.

<snip> The Weeping Town received its name from the townspeople's reaction when Daeron's corpse arrived from Dorne. Although most lords were vengeful after Daeron's death, Baelor the Blessed forgave the assassins and brought about a rapprochement with the Dornish.