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Heresy 209 Of Ice and of Fire

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8 hours ago, alienarea said:

After years of arguing I currently assume the following:

It was seven against three at the ToJ [Lyanna was not there because either servants were required to feed baby Jon or he would have died from starvation while Ned build the cairns. Also, imagine Ned and Howland riding into Starfall with a crying baby Jon and a decomposing Lyanna].

Only Ned and Howland survived the fight. Ned builds the cairns for the fallen. Assumption: when you die in battle you get buried where you fell.

Ned and Howland find Lyanna elsewhere [most likely in Starfall when they return Arthur Dayne's sword].

Lyanna dies in child bed and asks to be buried at Winterfell.

No mysteries. Pretty straight forward.

Seems pretty reasonable to me

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17 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Another tinfoiled theory that works,  Ned's side was losing badly and Howard blew up the tower with wildfire, burning his dead friends and live foes.  

Ned's dream describes the stones from the fallen tower as being "bloody". If they were burned you wouldn't expect blood to remain. I do appreciate an explanation though for how two men could pull down a tower...a feat which would seem difficult to complete by two men.

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16 hours ago, alienarea said:

After years of arguing I currently assume the following:

It was seven against three at the ToJ [Lyanna was not there because either servants were required to feed baby Jon or he would have died from starvation while Ned build the cairns. Also, imagine Ned and Howland riding into Starfall with a crying baby Jon and a decomposing Lyanna].

Only Ned and Howland survived the fight. Ned builds the cairns for the fallen. Assumption: when you die in battle you get buried where you fell.

Ned and Howland find Lyanna elsewhere [most likely in Starfall when they return Arthur Dayne's sword].

Lyanna dies in child bed and asks to be buried at Winterfell.

No mysteries. Pretty straight forward.

A reasonable conclusion IF the fever dream is a true account, which I'm fairly certain it is not as demonstrated by Dunk's earlier, parallel dream. 

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2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

A reasonable conclusion IF the fever dream is a true account, which I'm fairly certain it is not as demonstrated by Dunk's earlier, parallel dream. 

If the fever dream is a true account we have the first evidence of a Stark commanding a group of shadows :-)

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17 minutes ago, Tucu said:

If the fever dream is a true account we have the first evidence of a Stark commanding a group of shadows :-)

Which might be a hint that the White Walkers are commanded by a Stark ...

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13 minutes ago, alienarea said:

Which might be a hint that the White Walkers are commanded by a Stark ...

6 shadows in Ned's dream and 6 shadows in the prologue.

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Don't know, but the more I look into the references to shadows (or similar) in the books the more it looks like a Ghost story instead of a dark lord story.

Edited by Tucu

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13 hours ago, Tucu said:

6 shadows in Ned's dream and 6 shadows in the prologue.

Always remember, those are the shadows Will could see from his limited angle in the tree. Will thinks himself they are hard to spot and there is no proof he saw all of them. 

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4 hours ago, SirArthur said:

Always remember, those are the shadows Will could see from his limited angle in the tree. Will thinks himself they are hard to spot and there is no proof he saw all of them. 

The number matters as it is a potential breadcrumb left by GRRM to get to an explanation on what/who The Others are.

6 shadows at Ned side, 6 white shadows in the prologue, 6 Stark kids and 6 direwolves. Clues or fetish with the number 6?

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19 minutes ago, Tucu said:

The number matters as it is a potential breadcrumb left by GRRM to get to an explanation on what/who The Others are.

6 shadows at Ned side, 6 white shadows in the prologue, 6 Stark kids and 6 direwolves. Clues or fetish with the number 6?

Selective reading of the number 6. It's 6+1 except in the shadow situation.

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3 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

Selective reading of the number 6. It's 6+1 except in the shadow situation.

How so? Ned had 6 shadows beside him; we can only count 6 WW in the prologue. There are clearly 6 Stark kids and 6 direwolves.

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1 hour ago, Tucu said:

How so? Ned had 6 shadows beside him; we can only count 6 WW in the prologue. There are clearly 6 Stark kids and 6 direwolves.

What a good thing that we selective blend out the direwolf mother or Ned.

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27 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

What a good thing that we selective blend out the direwolf mother or Ned.

Waymar’s group were tracking eight wildlings, one of which was a woman up a tree with afar eyes. It’s shortly afterwards that they disappeared and the white walkers appeared. 

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1 hour ago, SirArthur said:

What a good thing that we selective blend out the direwolf mother or Ned.

Ned is not a shadow in his dream (neither are the KGs). The she-wolf was dead.

Edited by Tucu

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On 6/21/2018 at 5:04 PM, alienarea said:

After years of arguing I currently assume the following:

It was seven against three at the ToJ [Lyanna was not there because either servants were required to feed baby Jon or he would have died from starvation while Ned build the cairns. Also, imagine Ned and Howland riding into Starfall with a crying baby Jon and a decomposing Lyanna].

Only Ned and Howland survived the fight. Ned builds the cairns for the fallen. Assumption: when you die in battle you get buried where you fell.

Ned and Howland find Lyanna elsewhere [most likely in Starfall when they return Arthur Dayne's sword].

Lyanna dies in child bed and asks to be buried at Winterfell.

No mysteries. Pretty straight forward.

I agree with almost all of this.  Save for your last line.  The one issue that this doesn't address is the significance of the tower of joy and the part it plays in the story.

Quote

It would have to be his grandfather, for Jory's father was buried far to the south.  Martyn Cassel had perished with the rest.  Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge.  It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory.

So Ned doesn't "burn" the tower down with wildfire, he pulls it down, and he pulls it down all by his lonesome.  Clearly not significant habitation to house Lyanna.  So if Lyanna wasn't there and if she didn't didn't die there why does Ned associate the tower with "bloody stones".  Why does the fight to the death happen.  And how would this story be crucial to the overall tale, if Lyanna didn't die giving birth to Jon there?

My guess, is that the tower was the site where Rhaegar was going to replicate Summerhall, and not only hatch a dragon but transfer the consciousness of his son into the dragon.  And if Dany's hatching ritual is any indication, it would have required human sacrifice.  And according to Melisandre children with King's blood make for the best sacrifice.  And interestingly enough, Rhaegar's confidant, Aemon, does not disagree with Melisandre:

Quote

Two kings to wake the dragon.  The father first and then the son, so both die kings.  The words had been murmured by one of the queen's men as Maester Aemon had cleaned his wounds.  Jon had tried to dismiss them as his fever talking.  Aemon had demurred.  "There is power in a king's blood," the old maester had warned, "and better men than Stannis have done worse things than this."  The king can be harsh and unforgiving, aye, but a babe still on the breast?  Only a monster would give a living child to the flames.

I think Ned found Lyanna before the encounter with the tower of joy, and I think he and his select group of confidants traveled to the tower of joy to stop Rhaegar and Aerys' last plan, which was to hatch a dragon and transfer the consciousness of a Targaryen (probably Aegon) into the dragon.  And I think that to accomplish this plan, they were to sacrifice other children.  Children with bloodlines descended from the Gardner kings, the Storm kings, the Winter kings, ect.  

I don't necessarily think that when Melisandre refers to children with king's blood, she is necessarily referring to children descended from Targaryen bloodlines.  I think the reason that she's hell bent on sacrificing Edric Storm may not be that he is the bastard son of someone with the title of king, or that his great grandmother was a Targaryen, but instead he is descended from a bloodline that can be traced back to both the Storm kings on his father's side and the Gardner kings on his mother's side.

So I think that Jon Snow may have been one of those intended sacrifices, a babe with a strong Stark bloodline, a bloodline descended from the kings of winter.

Edited by Frey family reunion

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If the intent was to sacrifice father and son, was Rhaegar planning to sacrifice himself?

I was rereading AFOC and thinking about which blood has power.   Targaryen blood seems to,  and if I am right about Craster,  Stark blood does too.  But Mance's son seems to be the only other bloodline mentioned as being of possible special interest to burn (lots of people are burned as sacrifices that are neither Stark nor Targaryen,  but no one claims they are special).  It would be ironic if Craster's son was of interest to Mel but Mance's son was not.  Then they did the whole swap to protect a child but instead put one in harm's way. 

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