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Heresy 209 Of Ice and of Fire


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I am expecting Rhaella to still be alive as Septa Lemore. When Jaime saw Rhaella leave with Viserys, it was probably Ashara. After Rhaegar and Aerys death, the Kingsguard would be duty bound to follow the Queen Regents orders. If there’s an earlier event like Dany’s resurrection of Drogo, then Rhaella is Dany and Rhaegar is Drogo - Rhaella’s SON and stars. There must be a parallel to Mirri also. 

I propose:

Ashara dressed as Rhaella and took Viserys to Dragonstone, and gave birth to Dany. The father is likely Aerys. Rhaella said he raped her ladies in waiting.

Rhaella dressed as a septa, and took baby Aegon with her after Varys made the switch. The Silent Sisters would have had access to Rhaegar’s body, which would in turn been given over to Rhaella. She commanded the three Kingsguard to guard her and the body. Jeor Mormont played the same part as Jorah did for Dany and pulled Rhaella out when she miscarried during the resurrection ritual just like Dany. Afterward Jeor escorted Rhaella to Dragonstone to crown Viserys, and then used Ashara’s death to conceal her own identity.

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12 hours ago, Matthew. said:

I have to agree, and I think one can read between the lines when they are probed about not being present for the Trident, the Sack, or at Dragonstone that they are where they are because they're following orders--and, even now, they feel that they are still fulfilling the spirit of their vow.

This is not just a refusal to flee or bend the knee; while they may not be running off to help Willem Darry protect Viserys, in nestling themselves in the Red Mountains, they're not exactly putting themselves front and center in the war effort to make a brave last stand either. They were at the ToJ because being there had some significance to their final orders.

They may have been outnumbered, but they nearly won the day anyway; the KG weren't men waiting to die, and Eddard's crew was not an army mopping up the last business of Robert's Rebellion--to reiterate, it was a small crew of trusted companions, all Northern.  

I actually agree up to a point, but I think that the real problem is treating this as a one-dimensional incident, when in as in so much of GRRM's writing there's more to it than at first appears.

He has warned in that SSM that the dream isn't to be read literally and we have other similar examples to illustrate that. We have a fight at the tower which appears to be a rencounter and we have Lyanna's death scene. The two are connected but not necessarily co-located or directly contemporary.

The Kings Guard fight and die because they are true to their salt and will not surrender just because the war is over. 

I don't agree with Feather's interpretation but she rightly reminds us of the other mystery in the area - Ashara Dayne, and distantly Septa Lemore. There's something more than that fight  going on.

 

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13 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I am expecting Rhaella to still be alive as Septa Lemore. When Jaime saw Rhaella leave with Viserys, it was probably Ashara. After Rhaegar and Aerys death, the Kingsguard would be duty bound to follow the Queen Regents orders. If there’s an earlier event like Dany’s resurrection of Drogo, then Rhaella is Dany and Rhaegar is Drogo - Rhaella’s SON and stars. There must be a parallel to Mirri also. 

I propose:

Ashara dressed as Rhaella and took Viserys to Dragonstone, and gave birth to Dany. The father is likely Aerys. Rhaella said he raped her ladies in waiting.

Rhaella dressed as a septa, and took baby Aegon with her after Varys made the switch. The Silent Sisters would have had access to Rhaegar’s body, which would in turn been given over to Rhaella. She commanded the three Kingsguard to guard her and the body. Jeor Mormont played the same part as Jorah did for Dany and pulled Rhaella out when she miscarried during the resurrection ritual just like Dany. Afterward Jeor escorted Rhaella to Dragonstone to crown Viserys, and then used Ashara’s death to conceal her own identity.

I like the Rhaella angle (although Lemore may be too young to be Rhaella). GRRM has left himself a few paths regarding all the baby swaps(Jon, Aegon, Dany). I hope he doesn't materialise all of them :-)

May I ask why Jeor? Wasn't he at the Wall already for sometime when Alliser arrived?

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16 minutes ago, Tucu said:

I like the Rhaella angle (although Lemore may be too young to be Rhaella). GRRM has left himself a few paths regarding all the baby swaps(Jon, Aegon, Dany). I hope he doesn't materialise all of them :-)

May I ask why Jeor? Wasn't he at the Wall already for sometime when Alliser arrived?

Rhaella was born around 246. Just to use Ned as a reference - Ned was born 263, which means Rhaella was only 17 years older than Ned. Ned was 36 years old when he was beheaded, so Rhaella - if alive - would've been around 53 when that occurred. Tyrion met up with JonCon and Co a couple years later. If Septa Lemore is Rhaella, she'd be mid-fifties. Tyrion notes she's handsome despite her age. The wiki just says she's "over forty". Ashara on the other hand doesn't have a set birthdate. The wiki has a 9 year spread - 260-269. Her age when Ned was beheaded ranged from 33-42, and possibly 35-44 when Tyrion met Septa Lemore. Certainly within the age for Septa Lemore, but on the younger end. 

I think Jon is either Robert Baratheon's bastard, or the product of incest between Brandon or Ned and Lyanna. It is said he has "more of the north" in him! :P  Regarding the incest angle, it may have been what helped Ned recognize Cersei and Jaime's incest if he was already familiar with the signs, plus would be a reasonable "secret" that Ned was forced to keep.

I fully admit I'm throwing Jeor into the mix based on my theory about a wheel of time repeating history, and my belief that the titled chapters are what I refer to as inversion chapters.

ADWD chapter 26 The Wayward Bride on the surface is about Asha Greyjoy and her lover Qarl the Maid. This is after Asha was forced into a marriage by her uncle. The Greyjoy family are repeating Targaryen events and the laws of inheritance. Asha is Rhaella trying to assert her claim for the throne against her uncle. The inversion story of that chapter, however, is about Rhaella.

Asha's uncle Rodrick tells her about the wheel of time.

Quote

“Archmaester Rigney once wrote that history is a wheel, for the nature of man is fundamentally unchanging. What has happened before will perforce happen again.” 

Archmaester Rigney is actually a reference to Robert Jordan, author of the Wheel of Time series. Robert Jordan was a pen name. His given name was actually James Oliver Rigney Jr.

Asha had a boyfriend named Tristifer Botley. Rhaella had a lover named Bonifer Hasty. Similar sounding names and backgrounds. Tristifer told Asha she's the only woman he's ever had sex with. Bonifer was thought to be beneath Rhaella's station, and was known to be pious. He sought refuge in the faith after Rhaella married Aerys. Qarl the Maid was thought to be beneath Asha's station, and is described as pink-cheeked and beardless. Jeor and his son Jorah are both noted as being hairy as bears, which would be the complete opposite of Qarl the Maid, and this opposite description makes me think that either Jeor or Jorah was also once Rhaella's lover. 

Not much is known what led to Jeor leaving his seat and taking the black. He claims he left so that Jorah could have a seat for his wife, but what if he was punishing himself for helping the Queen from the losing side? 

An argument could be made that Qarl's hairy inversion was Jorah instead, and that all his talk about Lynesse was actually about Rhaella in disguise. Rhaella was smuggled out of Westeros somehow, and Asha's holding of Lady Glover and her children seems to be an echo of Rhaella and some children. Rhaella, in theory, would've had Rhaegar's toddler Aegon, Viserys, and Ashara's infant (Dany) by the time she left Bear Island. And Dany's memories of a home with huge rafters inscribed with carvings could be of the Mormont's holdfast.

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2 hours ago, SirArthur said:

I would argue against Rhaella, for the simple reason that she is not helping her children but instead her grandson. I would expect a mother to help Viserys in the first place.

It is common, when going into hiding, to split up. It increases the chances that somebody will survive. Here are a couple things to consider. Viserys always refers to Dany as his "sweet" sister. This may not be a very loving adjective. He likely knows she's his half-sister - sharing fathers, but not mothers. Rhaella as Septa Lemore may be taking care of her grandson, who as Rhaegar's son would be the rightful heir before Viserys. 

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1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

Rhaella was born around 246. Just to use Ned as a reference - Ned was born 263, which means Rhaella was only 17 years older than Ned. Ned was 36 years old when he was beheaded, so Rhaella - if alive - would've been around 53 when that occurred. Tyrion met up with JonCon and Co a couple years later. If Septa Lemore is Rhaella, she'd be mid-fifties. Tyrion notes she's handsome despite her age. The wiki just says she's "over forty". Ashara on the other hand doesn't have a set birthdate. The wiki has a 9 year spread - 260-269. Her age when Ned was beheaded ranged from 33-42, and possibly 35-44 when Tyrion met Septa Lemore. Certainly within the age for Septa Lemore, but on the younger end. 

I think Jon is either Robert Baratheon's bastard, or the product of incest between Brandon or Ned and Lyanna. It is said he has "more of the north" in him! :P  Regarding the incest angle, it may have been what helped Ned recognize Cersei and Jaime's incest if he was already familiar with the signs, plus would be a reasonable "secret" that Ned was forced to keep.

I fully admit I'm throwing Jeor into the mix based on my theory about a wheel of time repeating history, and my belief that the titled chapters are what I refer to as inversion chapters.

ADWD chapter 26 The Wayward Bride on the surface is about Asha Greyjoy and her lover Qarl the Maid. This is after Asha was forced into a marriage by her uncle. The Greyjoy family are repeating Targaryen events and the laws of inheritance. Asha is Rhaella trying to assert her claim for the throne against her uncle. The inversion story of that chapter, however, is about Rhaella.

Asha's uncle Rodrick tells her about the wheel of time.

Archmaester Rigney is actually a reference to Robert Jordan, author of the Wheel of Time series. Robert Jordan was a pen name. His given name was actually James Oliver Rigney Jr.

Asha had a boyfriend named Tristifer Botley. Rhaella had a lover named Bonifer Hasty. Similar sounding names and backgrounds. Tristifer told Asha she's the only woman he's ever had sex with. Bonifer was thought to be beneath Rhaella's station, and was known to be pious. He sought refuge in the faith after Rhaella married Aerys. Qarl the Maid was thought to be beneath Asha's station, and is described as pink-cheeked and beardless. Jeor and his son Jorah are both noted as being hairy as bears, which would be the complete opposite of Qarl the Maid, and this opposite description makes me think that either Jeor or Jorah was also once Rhaella's lover. 

Not much is known what led to Jeor leaving his seat and taking the black. He claims he left so that Jorah could have a seat for his wife, but what if he was punishing himself for helping the Queen from the losing side? 

An argument could be made that Qarl's hairy inversion was Jorah instead, and that all his talk about Lynesse was actually about Rhaella in disguise. Rhaella was smuggled out of Westeros somehow, and Asha's holding of Lady Glover and her children seems to be an echo of Rhaella and some children. Rhaella, in theory, would've had Rhaegar's toddler Aegon, Viserys, and Ashara's infant (Dany) by the time she left Bear Island. And Dany's memories of a home with huge rafters inscribed with carvings could be of the Mormont's holdfast.

Wouldn't Willem Darry be enough of a bear figure for a reenactment or inversion (I can't decide which one GRRM is using)?

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2 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Would Willem Darry be enough of a bear figure for a reenactment or inversion (I can't decide which one GRRM is using)?

This is a fair and good point, as his physical appearance is described as a grey "bear" of a man, and Dany remembers him as a "sweet old bear".  Either Willem Darry was just a man with a similar physical description to Jeor Mormont, or Willem Darry was a fake name and he actually was Jeor in disguise. If Willem was actually Jeor in disguise, then Jorah's story about how he met and married Lynesse was pure fabrication. Jorah was likely infatuated with Rhaella when she was in disguise - first as a septa, then later as Lynesse Hightower. Lynesse is described as looking a lot like Daenerys, but i understand that while we don't have a physical description for Rhaella, Septa Lemore is described as having dark hair - which could be dyed.

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16 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

Not when Aerys declared Viserys the crown prince. 

Not an uncommon thing for a king to do, especially if he was jealous of Rhaegar or even suspicious that Rhaegar was plotting against him. The Targaryen family tree is rife with conflicts over who should be next in line for the throne. Doesn't mean that Aegon didn't have the rightful claim.

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34 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Doesn't mean that Aegon didn't have the rightful claim.

It makes zero sense to flee King's Landing but leave the crown prince behind. 

 

I do however like the Mormont/Hightower angle of the story, as that is a fairly underdiscussed part of the books.

 

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1 hour ago, SirArthur said:

It makes zero sense to flee King's Landing but leave the crown prince behind. 

 

I do however like the Mormont/Hightower angle of the story, as that is a fairly underdiscussed part of the books.

 

I'm not quite following you regarding the crown prince being left behind.

Aerys held Elia with Rhaenys and "Aegon" hostage, reportedly to keep the Martells faithful, but he sent Viserys with Rhaella to (presumably) Dragonstone. If Aerys viewed Aegon as the crown prince, he would have sent him somewhere for safe keeping. Aerys was a very suspicious king, and by naming Viserys as his heir over Aegon shows he distrusted his own son Rhaegar too.

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12 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

If Willem was actually Jeor in disguise, then Jorah's story about how he met and married Lynesse was pure fabrication. Jorah was likely infatuated with Rhaella when she was in disguise - first as a septa, then later as Lynesse Hightower. Lynesse is described as looking a lot like Daenerys, but i understand that while we don't have a physical description for Rhaella, Septa Lemore is described as having dark hair - which could be dyed.

Circling back to this...it would not be necessary for Jorah to know that Lynesse was actually Rhaella for him to fall in love with her nor to fabricate their romance. If Rhaella was hiding in plain site as Lynesse Hightower, she had every reason to want to keep up the charade. But since Jorah never mentions any children being at Bear Island other than the mysterious "poachers" he "sold", the scales are tipped more in favor of Jorah knowing exactly who she was. 

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33 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Circling back to this...it would not be necessary for Jorah to know that Lynesse was actually Rhaella for him to fall in love with her nor to fabricate their romance. If Rhaella was hiding in plain site as Lynesse Hightower, she had every reason to want to keep up the charade. But since Jorah never mentions any children being at Bear Island other than the mysterious "slaves" he "sold", the scales are tipped more in favor of Jorah knowing exactly who she was. 

Catherine met Lynesse in Winterfell.

Quote

She remembered how young the Lady Lynesse had been, how fair, and how unhappy.

She was probably less than 20 when she met Jorah after the Greyjoy rebellion.

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31 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Catherine met Lynesse in Winterfell.

She was probably less than 20 when she met Jorah after the Greyjoy rebellion.

Greyjoy’s Rebellion was 7 years after Robert’s. Rhaella was early 30’s during Robert’s Rebellion, and late 30’s for Greyjoy’s. Was Lynesse’s age provided, or is it possible Rhaella just looked youthful for her age? Lynesse is described as looking similar to Dany. 

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4 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Greyjoy’s Rebellion was 7 years after Robert’s. Rhaella was early 30’s during Robert’s Rebellion, and late 30’s for Greyjoy’s. Was Lynesse’s age provided, or is it possible she just looked youthful for her age? She’s described as looking similar to Dany. 

We only get Jorah's version that she was half his age and Catelyn estimate that she looked very young (I assume meaning younger that Catelyn)

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3 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Here are a couple things to consider. Viserys always refers to Dany as his "sweet" sister. This may not be a very loving adjective. He likely knows she's his half-sister - sharing fathers, but not mothers. Rhaella as Septa Lemore may be taking care of her grandson, who as Rhaegar's son would be the rightful heir before Viserys. 

I don't buy into most of these theories,  but we are told Viserys didn't know about his own marriage pact.  It is unlikely he'd know the truth about any of these theories.  Unless of course there was no marriage pact, and Dorne just made this up recently. 

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31 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Greyjoy’s Rebellion was 7 years after Robert’s. Rhaella was early 30’s during Robert’s Rebellion, and late 30’s for Greyjoy’s. Was Lynesse’s age provided, or is it possible Rhaella just looked youthful for her age? Lynesse is described as looking similar to Dany. 

Was Lyanna ever described as looking like Daenerys?  GRRM mentioned a Star Wars situation applying to Jon.  This could mean she is Jon's sister. 

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1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

Was Lyanna ever described as looking like Daenerys?  GRRM mentioned a Star Wars situation applying to Jon.  This could mean she is Jon's sister. 

Arya is described as looking like Lyanna, and Arya "horseface" has brown hair and dark eyes with the long face of a Stark. Arya is described as being duller in appearance compared to her sister Sansa, but presumably as she matures she'll grow to be more beautiful in appearance like her aunt Lyanna.

Ashara has dark hair too, with violet eyes, but even though the hair color doesn't match, Barristan Selmy thinks Dany looks like Ashara.

Dany and Lynesse are blond with violet eyes. Rhaella on the other hand has never been described in the books. While not all Targaryens are blond or silver/gold haired, she has a good chance at having that feature. Jorah Mormont is attracted to Dany, because he thinks she looks like Lynesse!  So, Lynesse, Dany, and Ashara look similar in appearance and have Targaryen features.

I too (for many years) took Alfie Allen's "Star Wars" comment to mean that Jon and Dany will turn out to be siblings, but I kept on getting hung up on Jon's appearance as having "more of the north in him", and feeling like it's meant to be a hint that he's a product of incest.

Alfie's wording of "it involves a bit of a Luke Skywalker situation" doesn't sound like it's exactly like Luke and Leia, but something similar. Luke and Leia turned out to be siblings. Luke was the only one that had a crush on Leia and that ended quickly as soon as he learned she was his sister. And they didn't have an incestuous relationship that ended with a child either.

Alfie's comment doesn't have to mean that Jon and Dany will turn out to be siblings, and I don't care what the mummer's version has presented! It could also mean that Jon's parents were siblings, which could also explain that "bit" of a Luke Skywalker situation.

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