Heresy 209 Of Ice and of Fire

[alienarea]

58 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

Why would some long dead spirit of old Valyria want to dance and sing to entertain Stannis?

Because he can.

[Frey family reunion]

On 6/27/2018 at 11:34 AM, Tucu said:

I was going by Ned never saying or thinking anything bad about Rhaegar. If he had been a child sacrificing rapist I would expect a bit more disgust (as the disgust he showed for Aerys)

For a variety of reasons I remain convinced that a dragon hatching ritual was the backdrop for the tower of joy.  But I remain unsure of whether or not Jon was the subject of a kidnapping or whether it involved another child, perhaps a child of Ashara which might explain the gratitude that House Dayne seems to have for Eddard.  Or if Jon was involved, his involvement may have been a part of some child swapping scheme which may be repeating itself with the swapping of “monster” and Aemon Battlesong.  But regardless, the idea that a consciousness was slated to be transferred into a dragon at the tower of joy a process which was stopped by Eddard and co, only to be recreated with the same children  only grown out older now, makes a lot of sense (to me at least).

If you look at the chapters where Stannis and Davos  debate about sacrificing Edric Storm to give birth to The Dragon, you would see the same rationalization play out.      Stannis proposed doing something monstrous yet is never really portrayed as being a monster afterwards.

Eta:  As for the rapist part, I don’t really subscribe to the idea that Jon is necessarily Rhaegar’s child, so if Lyanna was raped and gave birth to Jon, I don’t think the culprit would have necessarily been Rhaegar

[Melifeather]

16 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

For a variety of reasons I remain convinced that a dragon hatching ritual was the backdrop for the tower of joy.  But I remain unsure of whether or not Jon was the subject of a kidnapping or whether it involved another child, perhaps a child of Ashara which might explain the gratitude that House Dayne seems to have for Eddard.  Or if Jon was involved, his involvement may have been a part of some child swapping scheme which may be repeating itself with the swapping of “monster” and Aemon Battlesong.  But regardless, the idea that a consciousness was slated to be transferred into a dragon at the tower of joy a process which was stopped by Eddard and co, only to be recreated with the same children  only grown out older now, makes a lot of sense (to me at least).

If you look at the chapters where Stannis and Davos  debate about sacrificing Edric Storm to give birth to The Dragon, you would see the same rationalization play out.      Stannis proposed doing something monstrous yet is never really portrayed as being a monster afterwards.

Eta:  As for the rapist part, I don’t really subscribe to the idea that Jon is necessarily Rhaegar’s child, so if Lyanna was raped and gave birth to Jon, I don’t think the culprit would have necessarily been Rhaegar

I quite agree.

The baby swapping seems more important than just saving Mance's child from burning. It's a parallel event that is repeating a historical one. Calling Aemon Steelsong "Monster" has layered meaning. There's the obvious one on the surface that he's wanted by the monster white walkers, but it also points to the kind of person that would sacrifice a child in order to work magic.

And I quite agree that Jon isn't necessarily Rhaegar's child, and that if he is Lyanna's as a result of rape, then the culprit is likely going to be someone that shocks the readers.

 

[SirArthur]

Now here is a question: Why did Gerold Hightower stay at the Tower of Joy after he found Rhaegar ? Or didn't he find Rhaegar but located Whent and Dayne later ? Is there a parallel between LC Gerold and LC Jaime, where they both cannot attend their duties because they are prisoners or otherwise occupied ? 

R+L certainly cannot explain why Hightower didn't return to Aerys. 

[Melifeather]

IMO Gerold Dayne - aka Darkstar - is mirroring Ser Gerold Hightower when he cut off Myrcella's ear and nearly cut open her head. I think Lyanna was involved in some type of scuffle, that she brandished her own sword (mirrored by Arya), and died as a result of a mortified wound. Whether or not the scuffle occurred at the tower of joy remains to be revealed. It could have happened somewhere else as demonstrated by Dunk's dream in The Hedge Knight.

[Tucu]

4 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

For a variety of reasons I remain convinced that a dragon hatching ritual was the backdrop for the tower of joy.  But I remain unsure of whether or not Jon was the subject of a kidnapping or whether it involved another child, perhaps a child of Ashara which might explain the gratitude that House Dayne seems to have for Eddard.  Or if Jon was involved, his involvement may have been a part of some child swapping scheme which may be repeating itself with the swapping of “monster” and Aemon Battlesong.  But regardless, the idea that a consciousness was slated to be transferred into a dragon at the tower of joy a process which was stopped by Eddard and co, only to be recreated with the same children  only grown out older now, makes a lot of sense (to me at least).

If you look at the chapters where Stannis and Davos  debate about sacrificing Edric Storm to give birth to The Dragon, you would see the same rationalization play out.      Stannis proposed doing something monstrous yet is never really portrayed as being a monster afterwards.

Eta:  As for the rapist part, I don’t really subscribe to the idea that Jon is necessarily Rhaegar’s child, so if Lyanna was raped and gave birth to Jon, I don’t think the culprit would have necessarily been Rhaegar

I also think that Jon is re-enacting Ned's baby swapping actions with Aemon and Monster, but I can't get around on who is playing which role. Too many doubts. Did Ned keep the least important baby? Who took the most important baby, Howland? Is Val also playing a role? 

On Rhaegar and Lyanna, the only version that convinces me is that Lyanna stumbled into Rhaegar's plans and had to be kept captive (Arya mirroring this with her travels in the Riverlands)

With regards to Stannis' actions. Jon makes the swap to hide the baby from Stannis (and Mel). Is that also part of the reenactment? Did Rhaegar and his men hide some babies from the Aerys?

[SirArthur]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

IMO Gerold Dayne - aka Darkstar - is mirroring Ser Gerold Hightower when he cut off Myrcella's ear and nearly cut open her head. I think Lyanna was involved in some type of scuffle, that she brandished her own sword (mirrored by Arya), and died as a result of a mortified wound. Whether or not the scuffle occurred at the tower of joy remains to be revealed. It could have happened somewhere else as demonstrated by Dunk's dream in The Hedge Knight.

But it wasn't Darkstar and now I am 100% confused what Gerold should mirror. 

[Black Crow]

OK as we're overrunning I've opened Heresy 210 where we can carry on discussing this one at the length it needs. See you over there.

[Brad Stark]

A lot of people think this interview was fake specifically because of this question:

Quote

Una vez dijo que, en su libro, había personajes que eran bisexuales. ¿A quiénes se refería?

-Arya, Brienne, Theon, Grenn, Pyp y Sam, por ejemplo. Dejo sutilezas en la obra sobre esto. Todo está en los detalles.

You once said you had bisexual characters in your book, who did you mean?

Arya, Brienne, Theon, Grenn, Pyp and Sam for example.  I left subtleties in my work about this.  All in the details.

Personally, I think this is a real interview.  Martin's style is very characteristic and hard to fake, and if this is fake, it is excellent.  

I think I am confusing 2 interviews, but I can't find the other.  I remember him talking about something similar to the Kinsey scale, he didn't use that term, where a character could be mostly interested in the opposite sex, but still have thoughts, feelings or actions about someone of the same gender.

 

Even if none of these interviews are real, my original point stands.  George RR Martin is realistic enough that if a man showed interest in another man, we cannot completely rule out he ever had interest in women.