Heresy 209 Of Ice and of Fire

[Brad Stark]

Maybe Sam didn't kill an Other.  

The Others seem to be rare creatures,  few and far between.  But the Pact supposedly included 100 obsidian daggers given to the Watch every year.  And killing an Other doesn't even use up the dagger.  So why would the Watch need so many daggers?  Wouldn't only a handful in the hands of their best fighters be enough?  Either they wouldn't get a hit in and it wouldn't matter,  or they'd kill an Other and there'd be 1 fewer to worry about. 

Maybe obsidian doesn't kill white walkers,  only defeats their physical body and they come back later.  Then it makes sense for every Watch man to have a dagger or several,  as most of them probably fight Others and win.

[Tucu]

2 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Maybe Sam didn't kill an Other.  

The Others seem to be rare creatures,  few and far between.  But the Pact supposedly included 100 obsidian daggers given to the Watch every year.  And killing an Other doesn't even use up the dagger.  So why would the Watch need so many daggers?  Wouldn't only a handful in the hands of their best fighters be enough?  Either they wouldn't get a hit in and it wouldn't matter,  or they'd kill an Other and there'd be 1 fewer to worry about. 

Maybe obsidian doesn't kill white walkers,  only defeats their physical body and they come back later.  Then it makes sense for every Watch man to have a dagger or several,  as most of them probably fight Others and win.

I will extrapolate from a couple of legends and say that Sam captured the soul of the WW inside the obsidian dagger.

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the men of the green lands told each other that the ironborn were demons risen from some watery hell, protected by fell sorceries and possessed of foul black weapons that drank the very souls of those they slew.

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It is said that her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon, but her blood and her soul and her strength and her courage all went into the steel

 

[Black Crow]

4 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Maybe Sam didn't kill an Other.  

The Others seem to be rare creatures,  few and far between.  But the Pact supposedly included 100 obsidian daggers given to the Watch every year.  And killing an Other doesn't even use up the dagger.  So why would the Watch need so many daggers?  Wouldn't only a handful in the hands of their best fighters be enough?  Either they wouldn't get a hit in and it wouldn't matter,  or they'd kill an Other and there'd be 1 fewer to worry about. 

Maybe obsidian doesn't kill white walkers,  only defeats their physical body and they come back later.  Then it makes sense for every Watch man to have a dagger or several,  as most of them probably fight Others and win.

We've talked about this one before. 100 daggers each year isn't really a gun-running operation so much as a ritual exchange of gifts and that of course does beg the question as to what the tree-huggers got in exchange

[LynnS]

4 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Maybe Sam didn't kill an Other.  

The Others seem to be rare creatures,  few and far between.  But the Pact supposedly included 100 obsidian daggers given to the Watch every year.  And killing an Other doesn't even use up the dagger.  So why would the Watch need so many daggers?  Wouldn't only a handful in the hands of their best fighters be enough?  Either they wouldn't get a hit in and it wouldn't matter,  or they'd kill an Other and there'd be 1 fewer to worry about. 

Maybe obsidian doesn't kill white walkers,  only defeats their physical body and they come back later.  Then it makes sense for every Watch man to have a dagger or several,  as most of them probably fight Others and win.

Yes, why the number 100 specifically? I know this has been discussed a while back.  Something to do with the 100 kingdoms and 1 man per kingdom serving at the Wall.  Perhaps they didn't serve for life and there was turnover.  

[LynnS]

12 hours ago, SirArthur said:

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Sam rolled onto his side, eyes wide as the Other shrank and puddled, dissolving away. In twenty heartbeats its flesh was gone, swirling away in a fine white mist. Beneath were bones like milkglass, pale and shiny, and they were melting too. Finally only the dragonglass dagger remained, wreathed in steam as if it were alive and sweating. Grenn bent to scoop it up and flung it down again at once. "Mother, that's cold."

Uff. And now for the conclusion:

1. Obsidian is not only a host for Children but also binds White Walkers into the "stone".

2. Sam is not looking when he kills the WW with the dagger. Sadly we do not know if the obsidian lights (like Lightbringer or the candles) when he touches his target. I assume it is the case. 

3. The light in the obsidian candles somehow gives me the idea that it can connect to/bind the spirit/soul of skinchangers. And that the Others are skinchangers. Much like Bran or Jon (remember how he steamed when he was stabbed, almost like the WW steamed that Sam killed) ... or Dany in that case. And that skinchanging is, what Dany should remember. 

This is a very interesting idea!  The dragon eggs themselves are shells made of magic stone. 

 

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A Game of Thrones - Daenerys II

Magister Illyrio murmured a command, and four burly slaves hurried forward, bearing between them a great cedar chest bound in bronze. When she opened it, she found piles of the finest velvets and damasks the Free Cities could produce … and resting on top, nestled in the soft cloth, three huge eggs. Dany gasped. They were the most beautiful things she had ever seen, each different than the others, patterned in such rich colors that at first she thought they were crusted with jewels, and so large it took both of her hands to hold one. She lifted it delicately, expecting that it would be made of some fine porcelain or delicate enamel, or even blown glass, but it was much heavier than that, as if it were all of solid stone. The surface of the shell was covered with tiny scales, and as she turned the egg between her fingers, they shimmered like polished metal in the light of the setting sun. One egg was a deep green, with burnished bronze flecks that came and went depending on how Dany turned it. Another was pale cream streaked with gold. The last was black, as black as a midnight sea, yet alive with scarlet ripples and swirls. "What are they?" she asked, her voice hushed and full of wonder.

I'm reminded of Dany's description of the black and white doors in the HoU:

 

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A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

Dany left him behind, entering a stairwell. She began to climb. Before long her legs were aching. She recalled that the House of the

Finally the stair opened. To her right, a set of wide wooden doors had been thrown open. They were fashioned of ebony and weirwood, the black and white grains swirling and twisting in strange interwoven patterns. They were very beautiful, yet somehow frightening. The blood of the dragon must not be afraid. Dany said a quick prayer, begging the Warrior for courage and the Dothraki horse god for strength. She made herself walk forward.

Weaving is a euphamism for magic.  It's the vivid colors of Dany's vision that reminds me of the glass candles:

 

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A Game of Thrones - Daenerys X

She had sensed the truth of it long ago, Dany thought as she took a step closer to the conflagration, but the brazier had not been hot enough. The flames writhed before her like the women who had danced at her wedding, whirling and singing and spinning their yellow and orange and crimson veils, fearsome to behold, yet lovely, so lovely, alive with heat. Dany opened her arms to them, her skin flushed and glowing. This is a wedding, too, she thought. Mirri Maz Duur had fallen silent. The godswife thought her a child, but children grow, and children learn.

Another step, and Dany could feel the heat of the sand on the soles of her feet, even through her sandals. Sweat ran down her thighs and between her breasts and in rivulets over her cheeks, where tears had once run. Ser Jorah was shouting behind her, but he did not matter anymore, only the fire mattered. The flames were so beautiful, the loveliest things she had ever seen, each one a sorcerer robed in yellow and orange and scarlet, swirling long smoky cloaks. She saw crimson firelions and great yellow serpents and unicorns made of pale blue flame; she saw fish and foxes and monsters, wolves and bright birds and flowering trees, each more beautiful than the last. She saw a horse, a great grey stallion limned in smoke, its flowing mane a nimbus of blue flame. Yes, my love, my sun-and-stars, yes, mount now, ride now.

 

 

   

 

[LynnS]

13 hours ago, LynnS said:

A Storm of Swords - Samwell V

Melisandre smiled. "Necromancy animates these wights, yet they are still only dead flesh. Steel and fire will serve for them. The ones you call the Others are something more."

"Demons made of snow and ice and cold," said Stannis Baratheon. "The ancient enemy. The only enemy that matters." He considered Sam again. "I am told that you and this wildling girl passed beneath the Wall, through some magic gate."

On the other hand, obsidion draws out the cold and the snow and ice becomes unbound.  Who are the cold gods?
 

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A Clash of Kings - Jon III

"That's pretty." He remembered Sansa telling him once that he should say that whenever a lady told him her name. He could not help the girl, but perhaps the courtesy would please her. "Is it Craster who frightens you, Gilly?"

"For the baby, not for me. If it's a girl, that's not so bad, she'll grow a few years and he'll marry her. But Nella says it's to be a boy, and she's had six and knows these things. He gives the boys to the gods. Come the white cold, he does, and of late it comes more often. That's why he started giving them sheep, even though he has a taste for mutton. Only now the sheep's gone too. Next it will be dogs, till . . ." She lowered her eyes and stroked her belly.

 

A Clash of Kings - Jon III

"What gods?" Jon was remembering that they'd seen no boys in Craster's Keep, nor men either, save Craster himself.

"The cold gods," she said. "The ones in the night. The white shadows."

 

 

[Black Crow]

58 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Yes, why the number 100 specifically? I know this has been discussed a while back.  Something to do with the 100 kingdoms and 1 man per kingdom serving at the Wall.  Perhaps they didn't serve for life and there was turnover.  

Or simply a case of sending one to the Wall and when he died he was replaced by another from the same kingdom. It probably doesn't matter whether GRRM thought this through, primarily its a symbolic rather than a "practical" number. 

The other question of course is why did the tree-huggers stop giving and is it connected with the fall of the Nights King and the advent of the "new" Nights Watch and their castles?

[Black Crow]

37 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Who are the cold gods?

In the context they are clearly the walkers, but of course that doesn't answer the question of who if anyone they answer to.

The original synopsis would suggest their masters were the tree-huggers, but if once true it aint necessarily still true

[Tucu]

Talking about shadows: Bloodraven was accused of using a shadow assassin to kill Prince Valarr's unborn sons:

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His hands are scarlet with a brother's blood, and the blood of his young nephews too," the hunchback had declared to the crowd that had gathered in the market square. "A shadow came at his command to strangle brave Prince Valarr's sons in their mother's womb"...

After hearing this Dunk thinks:

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Some claimed the King's Hand was a student of the dark arts who could change his face, put on the likeness of a one-eyed dog, even turn into a mist. Packs of gaunt gray wolves hunted down his foes, men said, and carrion crows spied for him and whispered secrets in his ear

None of these rumours sound weird after learning about Melisandre and the skinchangers

[Tucu]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

In the context they are clearly the walkers, but of course that doesn't answer the question of who if anyone they answer to.

The original synopsis would suggest their masters were the tree-huggers, but if once true it aint necessarily still true

GRRM is indirectly teasing us with these:

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"You are fighting shadows when you should be fighting the men who cast them," Daario went on

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"I can show you." Melisandre draped one slender arm over Ghost, and the direwolf licked her face. "The Lord of Light in his wisdom made us male and female, two parts of a greater whole. In our joining there is power. Power to make life. Power to make light. Power to cast shadows."

 

[Black Crow]

56 minutes ago, Tucu said:

GRRM is indirectly teasing us with these:

 

Well here we're moving into the unknown to a degree.

Our Mel clearly threw the black shadows which slew Renly and the castellan.

We currently seem broadly agreed that the white shadows are analagous to the black ones, but that then raises the question of who may have cast them and why.

In Mel's case its straightforward and because they were cast by fire they are black smoke which is consumed as soon as they have served their purpose. But what of the white shadows? Ice preserves, so were they cast yesterday or were they cast long long ago?

[Melifeather]

9 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Maybe obsidian doesn't kill white walkers,  only defeats their physical body and they come back later.  Then it makes sense for every Watch man to have a dagger or several,  as most of them probably fight Others and win.

I've wondered this myself. If the obsidian breaks a magic spell, does it necessarily mean that the humans casting the white shadow also die or do they return to their physical bodies?

5 hours ago, LynnS said:

Uff. And now for the conclusion:

1. Obsidian is not only a host for Children but also binds White Walkers into the "stone".

2. Sam is not looking when he kills the WW with the dagger. Sadly we do not know if the obsidian lights (like Lightbringer or the candles) when he touches his target. I assume it is the case. 

3. The light in the obsidian candles somehow gives me the idea that it can connect to/bind the spirit/soul of skinchangers. And that the Others are skinchangers. Much like Bran or Jon (remember how he steamed when he was stabbed, almost like the WW steamed that Sam killed) ... or Dany in that case. And that skinchanging is, what Dany should remember. 

I do like this idea that the souls of the humans behind the white shadows are captured and held inside the obsidian. They went into the stone, so to speak. It makes sense and is in agreement with the text. This does beg the question of what happened to Ned? Wasn't he beheaded with his own sword Ice? Wouldn't his soul have gone into the blade?

6 hours ago, Tucu said:

I will extrapolate from a couple of legends and say that Sam captured the soul of the WW inside the obsidian dagger.

 

i like your theory, biut I have questions, like the one about Ned above.

1 hour ago, Tucu said:

GRRM is indirectly teasing us with these:

 

I do tend to believe that there are humans casting white walker shadows.

[Tucu]

For the white shadows and relying on a couple of loosely related quotes, I would go I would go with the spirits of the slain both recent and old (maybe only skinchangers). One from Brienne's dream in the weirwood cave and one from Mirri:

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 The floor of the cave was dirt and stone, rough beneath the soles of her feet. Even now she felt light-headed, as if she were floating. The flickering light cast queer shadows. Spirits of the slain, she thought, dancing all about me, hiding when I turn to look at them

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"The grave casts long shadows, Iron Lord," Mirri said. "Long and dark, and in the end no light can hold them back."

Who are the men/beings responsible of controlling or rallying the white shadows is another matter.

[JNR]

10 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

But the Pact supposedly included 100 obsidian daggers given to the Watch every year.  And killing an Other doesn't even use up the dagger.  So why would the Watch need so many daggers?

Actually, the canon doesn't suggest a connection between the Pact and the daggers.  

It simply says that in the Age of Heroes, the CotF gave the Watch a hundred daggers a year.  

Since the Age of Heroes lasted thousands of years, we can't be sure when this ritual began or why... but given what obsidian does, it certainly seems likely it began after the Long Night, and if so, it had no relationship to the Pact (which was far earlier).

As to why a hundred a year would be helpful, the Watch may have had thousands of men at this time, and obsidian, though it can form a very sharp blade, is a brittle material, prone to shattering.  If you use an obsidian dagger for routine cutting, you're going to break it sooner or later. 

6 hours ago, LynnS said:

Yes, why the number 100 specifically? I know this has been discussed a while back.  Something to do with the 100 kingdoms and 1 man per kingdom serving at the Wall.

This always struck me as a rather literal interpretation of Old Nan's offhand remark that there were a "hundred kingdoms" of the First Men, constantly embroiled in conflict.  

In reality there would have been many dozens of petty kingdoms... but the exact number would constantly have shifted as one fought and conquered another, or was in time conquered itself.  She just said "a hundred" arbitrarily.

And the number 100 re the daggers seems likely to me to have been a round-number request by the First Men... because, of course, they counted in base ten, like most human cultures do, which in turn is likely derived from finger count.  So they perceived 100 as a round number.  

Whereas the CotF, who don't have ten fingers, most likely also don't use base ten.

[Matthew.]

12 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Maybe Sam didn't kill an Other.  

The Others seem to be rare creatures,  few and far between.  But the Pact supposedly included 100 obsidian daggers given to the Watch every year.  And killing an Other doesn't even use up the dagger.  So why would the Watch need so many daggers?  Wouldn't only a handful in the hands of their best fighters be enough?  Either they wouldn't get a hit in and it wouldn't matter,  or they'd kill an Other and there'd be 1 fewer to worry about. 

Maybe obsidian doesn't kill white walkers,  only defeats their physical body and they come back later.  Then it makes sense for every Watch man to have a dagger or several,  as most of them probably fight Others and win.

I feel like you're answering your own question here with the bolded quote--they receive a nice, round number annually to ensure that every man of the Watch is armed with obsidian; even if the total number of Others were low, one would assume that being able to slay one when encountered is still extremely important. Not just as a matter of self-preservation, but to prevent the Others from having free reign to roam around raising the dead.
 

9 hours ago, Tucu said:

I will extrapolate from a couple of legends and say that Sam captured the soul of the WW inside the obsidian dagger.

I'm very inclined toward your line of thinking here, especially in evoking the legend of Nissa Nissa--we still need more information, but I suspect this is edging closer to how all of these plot elements - fire and ice, dragonglass, dragonsteel, Lightbringer - relate to each other holistically.

[LynnS]

9 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

I feel like you're answering your own question here with the bolded quote--they receive a nice, round number annually to ensure that every man of the Watch is armed with obsidian; even if the total number of Others were low, one would assume that being able to slay one when encountered is still extremely important. Not just as a matter of self-preservation, but to prevent the Others from having free reign to roam around raising the dead.
 

I'm very inclined toward your line of thinking here, especially in evoking the legend of Nissa Nissa--we still need more information, but I suspect this is edging closer to how all of these plot elements - fire and ice, dragonglass, dragonsteel, Lightbringer - relate to each other holistically.

Yah, I have the sense that the cold gods are those disembodied souls (cotf) who take flight when the cold winds come and that returning them to stone reduces the numbers.  They either go into the earth, the stones or the trees.  This also fits with the notion that stone dragon eggs also trap souls. 

Again, I wonder about the failed greenseers impaled on spears of ice. 

[SirArthur]

29 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

I'm very inclined toward your line of thinking here, especially in evoking the legend of Nissa Nissa

I guess that is the question - when and why obsidian catches light. And when not. And what happens to the "stone" that already has a soul in it. After all it is a possibility that the obsidian Sam used, already had a soul in it. 

[Melifeather]

2 hours ago, Tucu said:

For the white shadows and relying on a couple of loosely related quotes, I would go I would go with the spirits of the slain both recent and old (maybe only skinchangers). One from Brienne's dream in the weirwood cave and one from Mirri:

Who are the men/beings responsible of controlling or rallying the white shadows is another matter.

Melisandre also says something about how the brightest lights create the darkest shadows.

I don't know why only skinchangers would be white walkers. Stannis was used by Mel to create a shadow. Basically she drew some of his spirit or life force, so why shouldn't we leave open the possibility that white walkers are basically "white' shadows and also the spirit or life force of a human? The physical properties may be different with one being more like a mist and the other ice, but when the spell was broken the white walker also disintegrated into a mist. The physicality of ice could just be because ice preserves, while the "black" shadow/mist dissipated or was consumed because it was "fire" magic.

[Tucu]

11 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Melisandre also says something about how the brightest lights create the darkest shadows.

I don't know why only skinchangers would be white walkers. Stannis was used by Mel to create a shadow. Basically she drew some of his spirit or life force, so why shouldn't we leave open the possibility that white walkers are basically "white' shadows and also the spirit or life force of a human? The physical properties may be different with one being more like a mist and the other ice, but when the spell was broken the white walker also disintegrated into a mist. The physicality of ice could just be because ice preserves, while the "black" shadow/mist dissipated or was consumed because it was "fire" magic.

I have a weak reason to make this asumption. A few messages ago I posted a quote about Bloodraven being able to transform into a mist. We also have Tormund saying this:

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A man can fight the dead, but when their masters come, when the white mists rise up … how do you fight a mist, crow? Shadows with teeth … air so cold it hurts to breathe, like a knife inside your chest … you do not know, you cannot know … can your sword cut cold?"

So I link the mist and WW with the skinchangers.

The shadow assassins are also product of magic, but maybe by slightly different methods.

[Melifeather]

55 minutes ago, Tucu said:

I have a weak reason to make this asumption. A few messages ago I posted a quote about Bloodraven being able to transform into a mist. We also have Tormund saying this:

So I link the mist and WW with the skinchangers.

The shadow assassins are also product of magic, but maybe by slightly different methods.

I like that you’ve found text referring to white walkers as white mists. It helps support the theory that they are quite similar to Melisandre’s shadow of Stannis, and also suggests that anyone can be used to make a white mist shadow.