U.S. Politics; Who Watches the Watchers?

[Fragile Bird]

3 hours ago, Pony Empress Jace said:

I love ya bird, i fucking love ya. 

But you're stuck in the past. Truth ain't never coming back. What we did? Societies don't come back from making gods out of rats.

Sweet mother I worry about you guys, truly I do. Recovering from whatever Trump does will take years, and now that he has been elected, others, worse others, will be elected in the future, I fear.

[Martell Spy]

7 hours ago, Fragile Bird said:

I have to agree that is worse than the recent story I saw. The story does say that the government was trying to deal with 89,000 unaccompanied children and they had to be placed within three days. That they were desperately trying to find placements for so many children obviously led to problems.

This has been a long, ongoing story, about parents sending their children alone to cross the border, because of the relatively good treatment they received under Obama. 

But I have a question - is this the same story we are talking about? The comments I have been seeing have been about children taken away from their parents by border security, and then, accusers say, ‘sold’ into slavery under the guise of being ‘lost’ in the system. 

Commentators are saying parents with their children are being separated at the border and the children seized (the policy I said was disgusting) and almost 1500 of these children have been ‘lost’ and the government has placed them in the hands of traffickers, which is what I mean about how both sides in the US exaggerate stories. The story you linked talks about how stressed and overwhelmed US authorities have been with the massive number of unaccompanied children that have entered the US over the last decade, and standards had become extremely lax. Are the 1500 part of the 89,000, or are they children who have crossed the US border since Trump was president? Which is it, because as far as I can tell the two stories are being conflated.

And if Fez’s real life experience is that more than 20% of participants in programs regularly don’t report in or respond to follow-up calls, that means the number should be 17,800 missing children, a number no one seems to claim. The biggest number in your link suggests 3,400 sponsors with criminal records, not even 3,400 children.

If you are shocked at the stories mentioned in that link, you’ve obviously not paid attention to stories about social services in cities across the country and the issues investigative reporters regularly uncover about the mistreatment of children in care. None of those cities have had to deal with thousands of unaccompanied children every year, children who can’t speak English and have no links to the community.

It looks like the 2 stories got conflated. However, it is still worrisome that children are going to first be traumatized by being forcibly separated from the their parents, apparently by officials not trained in how to do this and limit trauma. And after that, put into this system that got these results in the past. 

[Fragile Bird]

Holy sh**, flooding in the Baltimore area. OMG.

[Martell Spy]

Philip Roth’s 2004 warning about demagogues is more relevant than ever
Philip Roth, Donald Trump, and The Plot Against America.

https://www.vox.com/2018/5/28/17393268/philip-roth-trump-death-plot-america-book-fiction

Quote

 

The world Roth paints is more believable than our own. That is why its warning was so prescient. Even before Trump, Roth knew what much of America’s political class had forgotten: that the boundaries of the possible were wider than either the Democratic or Republican parties believed, that isolationism and xenophobia are powerful tools in the hands of a charismatic political outsider, that there is nothing in the American heart that inoculates us against the allure of demagogues.

“The truly resonant Trump Novels won’t actually be about Trump,” predicted Hane, and he’s right. The Plot Against America resonates so deeply precisely because it’s not about Trump — because it’s about someone more subtle, more appealing, and thus, more dangerous. The Plot Against America resonates because it is about us, because it is convincing in its argument that it can happen here, that there will always be those among us who want it to happen here, and if we are not vigilant, someday, it will.

 

 

[Martell Spy]

Quote

 

SHANGHAI — Ivanka Trump’s brand continues to win foreign trademarks in China and the Philippines, adding to questions about conflicts of interest at the White House, The Associated Press has found.

On Sunday, China granted the first daughter’s company final approval for its 13th trademark in the past three months, trademark office records show. Over the same period, the Chinese government has granted Ivanka Trump’s company provisional approval for another eight trademarks, which can be finalized if no objections are raised during a three-month comment period.

Taken together, the trademarks could allow her brand to market a lifetime’s worth of products in China, from baby blankets to coffins, and a host of things in between, including perfume, make-up, bowls, mirrors, furniture, books, coffee, chocolate and honey. Ivanka Trump stepped back from management of her brand and placed its assets in a family-run trust, but she continues to profit from the business.

 

China approves 13 new Ivanka Trump trademarks in 3 months

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/05/28/china-ivanka-trump-trademarks-610029

[maarsen]

5 hours ago, Martell Spy said:

It looks like the 2 stories got conflated. However, it is still worrisome that children are going to first be traumatized by being forcibly separated from the their parents, apparently by officials not trained in how to do this and limit trauma. And after that, put into this system that got these results in the past. 

A bit of history here. Canada during the early 20th century took in a lot of Barnardo children. These were kids removed from British cities and brought to Canada to be adopted. Horror stories ensued. During the 60's here in Canada indigenous children were removed from their homes and put up for adoption in non native homes. In all cases it was done for the "good of the children". Canada has just settled a billion dollar lawsuit for the removal of the indigenous children.

[Zorral]

19 hours ago, larrytheimp said:

Nope.  She wrote 'adults.'  It seemed pretty clear she was talking about who ever had custody while the parents were incarcerated.  

I went back and checked.  She did write adults, but she wrote "their adults," which translated to me as parents as there's no way that shoved within three days into 'foster families" such adults would be those kids' "their adults."  Certainly not regarded as so by these kids.

Nor had I seen anywhere for that matter those those kids separated at the border in the last couple of weeks being placed in foster families.  There's no way in hell that kind of placement could be done so quickly.  So the kids are just 'lost,' and lordessa knows what is happening with and to them.

And again, this is another brilliant brain fart of the dumbster to put pressure on Dems -- and now he's even insisting it's all their fault -- to get his great big beautiful wall which he remains being denied.

 

[felice]

29 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

In short, soldiers go and fight where they are told to fight and leave when they are told to leave.

But they know that when they sign up, and agreeing to kill people at the whim of leadership with such an awful track record doesn't instill me with much in the way of respect for them. Though I do have sympathy for some of them, especially those from disadvantaged backgrounds who are short on good alternatives and don't have the education to see through patriotic propaganda and understand how evil the military is. But actual conscription hasn't been a thing in the US for several decades now.

[OldGimletEye]

1 hour ago, felice said:

But they know that when they sign up, and agreeing to kill people at the whim of leadership with such an awful track record doesn't instill me with much in the way of respect for them. Though I do have sympathy for some of them, especially those from disadvantaged backgrounds who are short on good alternatives and don't have the education to see through patriotic propaganda and understand how evil the military is. But actual conscription hasn't been a thing in the US for several decades now.

Well, tell me in what world, do you imagine that states will give up military forces? It will be long while. So long as this state of things exist, even relatively peaceful and liberal states will have to maintain military forces. And that means they will have to recruit soldiers and train them in some fashion.

And when you speak of the "leadership" you talk about the civilian leadership and the voters that ultimately elect them. And given in the US that we have a tradition of civilian control over the military, it is the civilian leadership and the voters that elect them, that have to take some of the blame here. This shouldn't get all pinned on the soldiers.

[DMC]

1 hour ago, OldGimletEye said:

This shouldn't get all pinned on the soldiers.

Or rather, it shouldn't get pinned on the soldiers at all.  Shitting on men in the military on Memorial Day is a particularly infantile way to try to get attention.  I'd just ignore it.

[Fragile Bird]

1 hour ago, Zorral said:

I went back and checked.  She did write adults, but she wrote "their adults," which translated to me as parents as there's no way that shoved within three days into 'foster families" such adults would be those kids' "their adults."  Certainly not regarded as so by these kids.

Nor had I seen anywhere for that matter those those kids separated at the border in the last couple of weeks being placed in foster families.  There's no way in hell that kind of placement could be done so quickly.  So the kids are just 'lost,' and lordessa knows what is happening with and to them.

And again, this is another brilliant brain fart of the dumbster to put pressure on Dems -- and now he's even insisting it's all their fault -- to get his great big beautiful wall which he remains being denied.

 

It seemed pretty clear to me when I responded. Fez wrote a post about how many people do not respond to follow-up calls, and how if the number is in fact the bureaucracy has lost track of 20% of the kids placed in foster relationships it's actually a better rate than in other agencies where follow-ups are done.

You attacked him for saying that, and I said it was unfair. My response was

Quote

I don’t think that’s a fair thing to say. The fact is, people are incompetent, or lazy, or going through a crisis, and they fail to do things they are supposed to do. I was shocked when I first saw the stories, but I agree with Fez. There will be some bad stories about some kids, but the rest will be ok, their adults were being irresponsible for some reason.

I am obviously talking about the people who do not respond to the government's follow-up call. Their adults are the foster parents, not the actual parents of the children. If I meant parents, I would have said parents, and used adults instead of foster parents so no one would see the word 'parent' and react exactly the way you reacted. I thought that was perfectly clear, but maybe not if you didn't read Fez's reply.

As for 'there's no way in hell' the children could be placed so quickly, the story Martell Spy quoted says the government law requires placement within 3 days. Children who can't be placed are kept in shelters until they can be placed.

In addition, the story Felice linked says the majority of the children are usually placed with a family member or relative or friend of the family. Many parents south of the border send their kids to the US unaccompanied because they already have family in the US but know they will never be allowed into the US as a family, so they send their kids across the border alone, with the name of the relative, presumably, and details of where they live. I suspect many of those relatives don't exactly trust the government, which is why they don't respond to follow-up calls.

And I have repeatedly heard it confirmed on the news today that the 1475 'lost' children are part of the 89,000. Taking kids away from their parents at the border is a whole different nightmare story.

[OldGimletEye]

5 hours ago, dmc515 said:

Or rather, it shouldn't get pinned on the soldiers at all.  Shitting on men in the military on Memorial Day is a particularly infantile way to try to get attention.  I'd just ignore it.

As you probably know, I spent several years as a marine corps officer.

If the original post had said something like:

“This memorial day, just fuck you OGE.”

 I’d have probably just yawned.  It wouldn’t be the first time I’ve been told to go jump in a lake. And it will probably will not be the last time, I’d imagine.

But it is a bit hard for me to sit here and see the people I’ve served with and the marines I’ve commanded get slimed. Many of them have done things for me, like the NCOs who taught me how to do my job, and others, like my marines, that have done everything I’ve ever asked them to. And they were not criminals, sexual assaulters, or bigots. And if I did not take up for them, I’d feel like a real slime bag. I feel compelled to do it.

And there are many like them out there whom I did not serve with that are the same way. They deserve better. Particularly those that have suffered injuries whether they be mental or physical.

[DMC]

5 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

And if I did not take up for them, I’d feel like a real slime bag. If feel compelled to do it.

Fair enough.

[Yukle]

2 hours ago, OldGimletEye said:

Well, tell me in what world, do you imagine that states will give up military forces? It will be long while. So long as this state of things exist, even relatively peaceful and liberal states will have to maintain military forces. And that means they will have to recruit soldiers and train them in some fashion.

I like this response.

I don't like war. That puts me in the same position as 100% of all people ever. But I do understand nuance.

If I look at where my family came from originally, which is the border between Lebanon and Syria, I'm extremely happy not to live there. But I also know that I haven't any solution to what I'd do to solve things that isn't what's already happening.

For every soldier firing guns, there'd be - what, 5? 10? - reinforcing infrastructure, building and rebuilding plumbing, operating hospitals and protecting the elected governments.

It's a simplistic view that says military exclusively destroy things. But they depend upon the survival of the nations they're fighting within, or they'd wither away into starvation.

Is every military doing this? Of course not! But you'd be hard pressed to find a nation on earth without infrastructure that doesn't owe itself to warfare in some way. In an ideal world, we'd have built it anyway. But lacking such elements of a society is what often causes a war to happen in the first place. Humans aren't so good in this regard.

[Bonnot OG]

3 hours ago, OldGimletEye said:

I think its a bunch of horseshit on your part to somehow claim that every man that has worn a uniform is war criminal, a bigot, or a sexual assaulter. That is simply not true.

Secondly, as you know, I have highly anti-interventionist views, being more aligned with people like Rand Paul on matters of foreign policy, than I am with even some Democrats. To the point I'd have to consider voting for Paul over somebody like Susan Powers, if they were running against each other for something. So, I'd agree there is a lot to criticize when it comes to American Foreign Policy.

That said, soldiers, don't get to randomly decide what wars they will fight or what orders they will follow, though do have a duty to not follow manifestly illegal orders. That decision is ultimately on the civilian leadership and the voters that elect them. In short, soldiers go and fight where they are told to fight and leave when they are told to leave. And if soldiers casually disregarded orders, you wouldn't have an army for very long. And, though, I hope one day for world peace, it will probably be quite awhile before states can give up their military forces.

In short, I can disapprove the actual war being fought and think it is wrong to fight it, while having respect for the people, and not just men, that have to endure it.

We tried and killed people at Nuremberg that tried to push the same bullshit excuse, spare me. 


 

[OldGimletEye]

1 hour ago, Sword of Doom said:

We tried and killed people at Nuremberg that tried to push the same bullshit excuse, spare me. 

Fact is though I don't think you know jack shit about Nuremburg or the modern law of war crimes with respect to when soldiers are to not follow an order.

Sounds, like something you heard at a cocktail party, and think sounds good.

[Bonnot OG]

3 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

Fact is though I don't think you know jack shit about Nuremburg or the modern law of war crimes with respect to when soldiers are to not follow an order.

Sounds, like something you heard at a cocktail party, and think sounds good.

And you sound like the typical biased former military member that is sticking up for your own.

And the falling back on the order bullshit doesn't hold given how the military is filled with volunteers, not drafted individuals that didn't want to be there in the first place. It's filled with people seeking out to join it. 

Maybe this country needs to stop jerking off the military and just making excuses for their bullshit actions. This country has no issue telling other countries they go to war with just following orders doesn't work as an excuse, but it loves to excuse their own with the same thing they condemn other countries for doing.

[OldGimletEye]

1 hour ago, Sword of Doom said:

And you sound like the typical biased former military member that is sticking up for your own.

And the falling back on the order bullshit doesn't hold given how the military is filled with volunteers, not drafted individuals that didn't want to be there in the first place. It's filled with people seeking out to join it. 

Sounds like your the sort of person who has never given on iota of serious thought to any of these matters and just wishfully thinks that all states can just get rid of their military forces and who just talks about Nuremburg, but has not one iota of a clue how the modern law of war crimes works and the policy considerations behind it.

[Martell Spy]

6 minutes ago, Sword of Doom said:

And you sound like the typical biased former military member that is sticking up for your own.

And the falling back on the order bullshit doesn't hold given how the military is filled with volunteers, not drafted individuals that didn't want to be there in the first place. It's filled with people seeking out to join it. 

If volunteers were low enough, they would begin a draft. We don't get of our 80 year war in the Middle East that easy.

[Bonnot OG]

9 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

Sounds like your the sort of person who has never given on iota of serious thought to any of these matters and just wishfully thinks that all states can just get rid of their military forces and who just talks about Nuremburg, but has not one iota of a clue how the modern law of war crimes works and the policy considerations behind it.

That's ironic you are talking about not giving any sort of serious thought on the matter given your excusing horrible actions as just following orders. 

So basically are people in the military with zero actual ethics and are cowards tha would rather just carry out horrible orders instead of having a backbone and saying this is wrong? 

Sorry buddy, your days in the military and this countries military worship and indoctronation has got you a bit blind on the matter. 

Man, you would really hate my opinion on the Marine Corps and their horrible handling of sexual assault cases and their attempted cover ups of suicides. And yea, I'm not just pulling any of that out of my ass. They actively tried to cover up my friends suicide as a fucking training accident.
 

3 minutes ago, Martell Spy said:

If volunteers were low enough, they would begin a draft. We don't get of our 80 year war in the Middle East that easy.

Damn.