Smarter mace tyrrel

[History]

What if mace tyrrel was smarter and was more aware politically and planed to increase power and influence of  the reach and house tyrrel by marryng elia martell to gain alliance with dorne  and married his sister janna to robert barenthon and his sister mina to jaime lannister to gain alliance with stormlands and westernlands.

[Ylath's Snout]

IF you wanna go with "Rickard Stark was a traitor for seeking powerful spouses for his kids"-line then this might have set of Aerys and gotten the Tyrells in a heap of trouble.

That said they would be all of the Southern kingdoms + the Westerlands in one alliance block. If push came to shove they might just steamroll the Crownlands.

[John Suburbs]

17 hours ago, History said:

What if mace tyrrel was smarter and was more aware politically and planed to increase power and influence of  the reach and house tyrrel by marryng elia martell to gain alliance with dorne  and married his sister janna to robert barenthon and his sister mina to jaime lannister to gain alliance with stormlands and westernlands.

I have a tough time seeing an alliance between the Reach and Dorne. They have a long, hostile history, as does Dorne and the Stormlands. In fact, nobody likes the Dornish. They're weird.

If you look at history, few of the great houses intermarried because doing so would weaken the political alliances with their own bannermen. The Gardners/Tyrells have been the most powerful house for generations due to their marriages with the Redwynes and Hightowers -- they are one big extended family. This is why their strategy has been to subvert efforts of other houses to form power blocs, first during Robert's Rebellion when they sided with the Mad King to prevent the North, Riverlands, Vale and Stormlands from uniting, and then again at the Purple Wedding to prevent Tyrion from fathering the next heir to Winterfell and allowing Tywin to cement his control over the North to supplement his recent acquisitions of the Riverlands and Stormlands.

 

[Ylath's Snout]

1 minute ago, John Suburbs said:

then again at the Purple Wedding to prevent Tyrion from fathering the next heir to Winterfell and allowing Tywin to cement his control over the North to supplement his recent acquisitions of the Riverlands and Stormlands.

Woah, mind = a tiny bit exploded. This makes as much sense as killing off Joff so he wouldn't abuse Maraegery. Tommen won't be fathering any flow-"stags" for a couple of years and that is a pretty big risk. Blocking the Lannister power grab is important too.

[John Suburbs]

22 minutes ago, Ylath's Snout said:

Woah, mind = a tiny bit exploded. This makes as much sense as killing off Joff so he wouldn't abuse Maraegery. Tommen won't be fathering any flow-"stags" for a couple of years and that is a pretty big risk. Blocking the Lannister power grab is important too.

Um, well, they weren't trying to kill Joffrey at all since he posed absolutely no threat to Margaery, but that is an entirely different discussion.

It does, in fact, make perfect sense for the Tyrells to prevent the Lannisters from rivalling them in power by thwarting their grab to take over the north through Sansa. It's how you play the Game of Thrones.

[Ylath's Snout]

Just now, John Suburbs said:

they weren't trying to kill Joffrey at all since he posed absolutely no threat to Margaery, but that is an entirely different discussion.

So you belong to the "they tried to off Tyrion"-camp? Heck, that would have worked better for LF as Sansa would have been a legit widow.

Just now, John Suburbs said:

It does, in fact, make perfect sense for the Tyrells to prevent the Lannisters from rivalling them in power by thwarting their grab to take over the north through Sansa. It's how you play the Game of Thrones

Yeah sure, it is just that I heard the "don't want Margaery to get beat on" idea and kinda just assumed it was right.

[John Suburbs]

8 minutes ago, Ylath's Snout said:

So you belong to the "they tried to off Tyrion"-camp? Heck, that would have worked better for LF as Sansa would have been a legit widow.

Yeah sure, it is just that I heard the "don't want Margaery to get beat on" idea and kinda just assumed it was right.

Lol, yes, I guess you could say I am in that camp, and I have the bruises to prove it. It's one of the most deftly constructed mysteries in the book, or any book for that matter. And yes, Tyrion's death would have been better for everyone involved, including Margaery, who was in absolutely no danger from Joff.

[Ylath's Snout]

26 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

And yes, Tyrion's death would have been better for everyone involved,

I don't know, there is a short noseless fellow that might disagree with that sentiment.

So, do you think Marg would have been safe because of the importance of the Tyrell alliance and that she is more deft at manipulating someone like Joff than Sansa was, am I tots-mah-goats wrong?

[John Suburbs]

5 hours ago, Ylath's Snout said:

I don't know, there is a short noseless fellow that might disagree with that sentiment.

So, do you think Marg would have been safe because of the importance of the Tyrell alliance and that she is more deft at manipulating someone like Joff than Sansa was, am I tots-mah-goats wrong?

Margy is one of two people on the planet who has figured out how to manipulate Joff for her own ends. The other is Littlefinger. But, no, it has nothing to do with the alliance. Joffrey simply has no reason to hurt her, and the way he is acting at the wedding shows that he is pleased as punch to be marrying her rather than drippy, mopey Sansa. Sansa's treatment came from the fact that her family is in open rebellion to the crown and is winning battles, plus they have a shared history that causes Joff to have a lot of resentment towards her. None of this applies to Margy. There is no reason to think that just because Joff had Sansa beaten that he will do the same to Margy, any more than he will execute Mace Tyrell just because he executed Ned. Different people, different circumstances.

There is every possibility that someday Joff may hurt Margy, but a few bruises and a black eye are well worth the Iron Throne; many queens have suffered a lot worse for their crowns. And if it ever does become a problem, there are plenty of ways to get rid of Joffrey quietly, in private, not directly in front of a thousand witnesses at a time when your entire family, save one, is surrounded by Lannister guards. And by then, of course, Margy will have produced a son or two and then she can rule as regent. Killing Joff now merely extends Cersei's rule for another half decade or so, whereas if he had lived, Margy would have woken up safe and sound the next morning as Queen of the Seven Kingdoms while Cersei would be packed off to her next husband.

[Ylath's Snout]

( @John Suburbs Not gonna quote your whole thing, even thiugh it is well written.)

Those things makes sense if Joff can be considered "rational" with his abuse. He may assume "should" beat on his wife thanks to his dirtbag wife-beater of a father. But the Tyrells might have been willing expose Marg to a risk of that..

I will always be doubtful of Joff in pretty much any situation as he seems to be a mix of untreated mental issue (not that he is alone in that in ASoIAF), bad/neglectful parenting and being put in a stressful situation he unread for.

Anyone put into the place Joff start off as king: with one end of the country in rebellion and two uncles prepping take you out based on claims of your mother fucking her brother. Might crack, Joff has some pretty big fault lines from the start.

[John Suburbs]

13 hours ago, Ylath's Snout said:

( @John Suburbs Not gonna quote your whole thing, even thiugh it is well written.)

Those things makes sense if Joff can be considered "rational" with his abuse. He may assume "should" beat on his wife thanks to his dirtbag wife-beater of a father. But the Tyrells might have been willing expose Marg to a risk of that..

I will always be doubtful of Joff in pretty much any situation as he seems to be a mix of untreated mental issue (not that he is alone in that in ASoIAF), bad/neglectful parenting and being put in a stressful situation he unread for.

Anyone put into the place Joff start off as king: with one end of the country in rebellion and two uncles prepping take you out based on claims of your mother fucking her brother. Might crack, Joff has some pretty big fault lines from the start.

Well, I'll have to disagree with your assessment of Joff. He has reasons for the things he does -- not good reasons, perhaps, but reasons nonetheless. He doesn't just torture people for the heck of it. And in any event, Margy was certainly in no danger that night, so all the more reasons to wait until she has a son or two by Joffrey and then off him so she can rule directly rather than do it now and hand the Iron Throne right back to Cersei.

But we're a little off topic. If you want to keep going, start a Purple Wedding thread (if you dare) or PM me.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

23 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

But we're a little off topic. If you want to keep going, start a Purple Wedding thread (if you dare) or PM me. 

Classy.   

 

[Ylath's Snout]

43 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

But we're a little off topic. If you want to keep going, start a Purple Wedding thread (if you dare) or PM me.

Sure sure. So back to Smart-Mace...

I kinda feel that you don't wanna overplay your hand in the marriage game. Players-of-the-game might recognize your moves from Lord Rickard.

So a year or two after the Rebellion I'd talk to Jon Arryn and try to convince him that just talking Lannister loans is a bad idea. The king might be less angry at the Tyrells if he gets to party on their coin, the Lannisters won't have such a strong grip on the king and Mace would be building some leverage even if the loans are on very generous terms.

Try to get some Tyrell kids fostered with important people like Stannis, Ned and Tywin.

When the Greyjoy rebellion come around go all in on the Crown and after it is done argue that Greyjoys should be stripp of their Paramount Lordship. Get in good with whoever replaces them.

Is any of that a real naff idea?

[John Suburbs]

20 hours ago, Ylath's Snout said:

Sure sure. So back to Smart-Mace...

I kinda feel that you don't wanna overplay your hand in the marriage game. Players-of-the-game might recognize your moves from Lord Rickard.

So a year or two after the Rebellion I'd talk to Jon Arryn and try to convince him that just talking Lannister loans is a bad idea. The king might be less angry at the Tyrells if he gets to party on their coin, the Lannisters won't have such a strong grip on the king and Mace would be building some leverage even if the loans are on very generous terms.

Try to get some Tyrell kids fostered with important people like Stannis, Ned and Tywin.

When the Greyjoy rebellion come around go all in on the Crown and after it is done argue that Greyjoys should be stripp of their Paramount Lordship. Get in good with whoever replaces them.

Is any of that a real naff idea?

They did borrow from the Tyrells:

Quote

"The crown is more than six million gold pieces in debt, Lord Stark. The Lannisters are the biggest part of it, but we have also borrowed from Lord Tyrell, the Iron Bank of Braavos and several Tyroshi trading cartels."

When Mace bent the knee to Robert, he was let off on very generous terms, keeping nearly all his lands and wealth and not giving up any of his children as wards. I don't see why Mace would want to then foster his sons out to the very lords who had just defeated him rather than to trusted bannermen.

Mace did go all in with the crown during Greyjoy's rebellion. He sent the Redwyne Fleet with Stannis to destroy the Iron Fleet at Fair Isle. Baelor BlackTyde was a hostage in Oldtown following the war, returning at the age of eight fully converted to the Faith of the Seven.

Margaery was born in 283, an infant following Robert's Rebellion and only six after Greyjoy's. When she did come of age, they were plotting to marry her to Robert first, hoping they could convince him that Cersei was unfaithful (and an incestophile). When Robert died, the married her to Renly and backed his bid for the Iron Throne.

All in all, I don't see how Mace could have played his hand after the Trident any better -- realizing, of course, that it is Lady Olenna doing the actual playing here.

 

[Lord Lannister]

I always felt Mace's buffoon act was just that. An act to make his rivals underestimate him. Olenna plays into it by repeating her "opinion" loudly, but if you think about it it's uncharacteristic of her to undermine her family like that. If you look at what he's accomplished as Lord of the Reach, and more importantly with lack of cost, you could see him as a cunning operator. Certainly if you look at all the other cunning members of his family, it'd odd he'd be so "dumb" being related by blood to so many of the most intelligent players of the game.

During the Rebellion he declared for the Targaryens and then tied his forces down besieging Storm's End. Sure this gives the impression that he's an incompetent military leader or a coward, but look at what it gets him. If the Targaryen's win, he reaps the rewards for helping, likely a large chunk of the Stormlands and possibly influence at court. Since the rebels won, he just dipped his banners, bent the knee and called it a day. Unlike most everyone else, he lost virtually nothing in the way of land, property or men. Hardly a risky roll of the dice.

During the War of the Five Kings, he declared himself for Renly. This won him being Hand, his daughter as Queen and his son at Renly's side influencing everything. The cost? Not a thing. Renly moved slow, but this likely could be Mace's influence to see how things would play out. Certainly the one impulsive move Renly made was turning about to meet Stannis at Storm's End with his mobile forces. We all know how that played out, again it cost Mace very little to roll the dice. Other than a few men, he lost nothing during this and it set him up for another great move.

Siding with Joffrey gets him almost everything siding with Renly got him. His daughter is queen, he has no small amount of influence at court and all it cost him was supplies and the "risk" of his army attacking Stannis from the rear, with the added benefit of there being no possibility of failure given the numerical disparity at the Blackwater.

Mace is perfectly willing to play the game, he just hedges his bets so he doesn't stand to lose much when he does roll the dice.

[Corvo the Crow]

Why people say Mace is a buffoon is beyond me. SHOW! Mace is a buffoon but it's a merge of characters(the westerlands guy I can't recall). Book Mace isn't particularly bright or anything but he isn't dumb either. Garlan is a smart guy, Willas is educated and also has some smarts to him judging by him giving a then chubby Garlan the nickname Gallant. Olenna is a great player and while Book! Margaery is not on the level of the Show! one, she is Olenna's apprentice and seems to be learning fast. Only stupid Tyrell I can think of the main branch is Loras and he's just a very young guy and can improve should he survive.

Back on topic though.

If he was smarter;

Dorne: he would have let go of the grievance with the Martells. Oberyn is one mean son of a bitch and yet he seems to be genuinely sorry about what happened with Willas. He should have asked a marriage between Willas and Arianne for reconciliation and between some lesser cousins and sand snakes because they are bastards. Or get Tyene legitimized and marry Willas to her since she is the most lady like

Baratheons: He should have procured a cousin for a matrilineal marriage with Shireen to eliminate the Florent threat for that generation and proposed a marriage between Margaery and Renly long before.

Starks: Marry Sansa to Loras. Sansa is infatuated with him and he is at hand. They could have asked Loras out of KG and immediately arranged a marriage between the two. It's a better match than Willas too putting eggs in several baskets.

Riverlands: Edmure is also a good option for marrying Margaery to or he can always procure an attractive cousin, Tyrell or not, with a huge dowry, Edmure wouldn't mind.

Vale: Not much to do with Arryns but he can still reach out to Royces and other bannermen if there's any of some power.

Westerlands: Not much to do there as long as Tywin lives.