If Robb was truly honorable, he would've wed and bed Roslin at the Twins before his campaign

[Bernie Mac]

25 minutes ago, Ylath's Snout said:

I meant that the quote of you saying "It is actually in his best interest to have Robb marry and impregnate a Frey before he turns against him as the Frey's would then be in possession of the next lord of the North. " as another reason for a quick wedding.

Exactly, but given the rush there was simply no time to have the wedding there and then. 

25 minutes ago, Ylath's Snout said:

Sure, but it is never made clear in the book that Robb was dodging the wedding. A thorw away line somewere could have made it clearer.

I never claimed he was dodging the wedding. You are thinking of OP. I said the wedding did not happen due to Cat being worried over the fact that she did not know if Riverrun would not be taken even before they arrived. Time was crucial.

 

25 minutes ago, Ylath's Snout said:

Ehh, I don't think that breaking the marriage-pact is breaking Guest Rights.

i'm illustrating how important someone's word is in this era. many marriage alliances are between houses that are not equal in power, they don't just reneg on the deal when it suits them

the Starks were expected to honor their promise, no one expected them to break it. 

 

[Ylath's Snout]

2 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

I never claimed he was dodging the wedding. You are thinking of OP. I said the wedding did not happen due to Cat being worried over the fact that she did not know if Riverrun would not be taken even before they arrived. Time was crucial.

 

I mean dodge it over a extended period of time. Once Riverrun isn't in acute danger a hurried wedding seem reasonable to me.

4 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

i'm illustrating how important someone's word is in this era. many marriage alliances are between houses that are not equal in power, they don't just reneg on the deal when it suits them

the Starks were expected to honor their promise, no one expected them to break it.

Sure, but at the end of the day I have a hard time feeling to bad for Walder. IMHO he had been a disloyal bannerman in the past, now he is blackmailing a ally of his liege lord for just the ability to pass a river and in the end Edmure seems like a fair swap for "just" the Lord of Winterfell, because as you pointed out Robb wasn't KitN when the pact as made.

[Bernie Mac]

8 minutes ago, Ylath's Snout said:

I mean dodge it over a extended period of time. Once Riverrun isn't in acute danger a hurried wedding seem reasonable to me.

Robb decides to go West and fight Stafford rather than go and marry. He wants his mother to go and pick the right bride, something she refuses to do wanting to be with her sick father. 

The choice to not marry after Riverrun, or even start arranging, was firmly with the Starks. It is no Walder who is trying to delay it. 

8 minutes ago, Ylath's Snout said:

Sure, but at the end of the day I have a hard time feeling to bad for Walder.

Is anyone asking you to do so?

8 minutes ago, Ylath's Snout said:

IMHO he had been a disloyal bannerman in the past,

you mean like how Hoster was disloyal to the Targs? 

8 minutes ago, Ylath's Snout said:

 

now he is blackmailing a ally of his liege lord for just the ability to pass a river

it is not blackmail, it is a marriage pact. Robb's grandfather did the same with his daughters as did Robb's ancestor Cregan Stark. Negotiating an alliance with an marriage is not blackmail. 

Robb was free to go another route, to cut down tree's and cross the river. He chose not to, he was in a hurry. Walder, by allowing him access is making an enemy of the King and the Hand of the King, a house he has a marriage alliance with. 

8 minutes ago, Ylath's Snout said:

and in the end Edmure seems like a fair swap for "just" the Lord of Winterfell,

not really. Robb was taking his army and leaving the North. There was a goo chance that the Tully's would either lose their seat or their position as the rulers of the Riverlands from the Crown. 

 

[Ylath's Snout]

8 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

you mean like how Hoster was disloyal to the Targs?

In a feudal society people have some right, the higher up the chain you go the more right you get. What Aerys and Rhaegar did seems to me to have broken the social contract binding their lords paramount to them and gave them a perfectly fine Casus Belli to rebell.

Walder owed his loyalty to Hoster not Aerys. 

3 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

it is not blackmail, it is a marriage pact. Robb's grandfather did the same with his daughters as did Robb's ancestor Cregan Stark. Negotiating an alliance with an marriage is not blackmail.

IMHO getting to pass the bridge by paying the toll wouldn't have been blackmail. As that would just have been standard operating procedure. Demanding two marriages for doing what is expected of you is much more blackmail-y IMHO. Should all the other bannermen Robb and Hoster demanded a marriage to do their duty?

17 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

There was a goo chance that the Tully's would either lose their seat or their position as the rulers of the Riverlands from the Crown. 

Isn't the same true of Robb though?

23 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

The choice to not marry after Riverrun, or even start arranging, was firmly with the Starks. It is no Walder who is trying to delay it. 

Maybe but he never takes any actions to move things along either.

[Bernie Mac]

4 hours ago, Ylath's Snout said:

In a feudal society people have some right, the higher up the chain you go the more right you get. What Aerys and Rhaegar did seems to me to have broken the social contract binding their lords paramount to them and gave them a perfectly fine Casus Belli to rebell.

I know this is a popular argument in the fandom but no one in the series claims this. And while this may excuse Ned, Robert and Jon it does not apply to Hoster given his own daughter is clear on why he joined the war, a marriage alliance. 

4 hours ago, Ylath's Snout said:

Walder owed his loyalty to Hoster not Aerys. 

Who told you that? 

"You swore an oath to my father," Catelyn reminded him.

He bobbed his head side to side, smiling. "Oh, yes, I said some words, but I swore oaths to the crown too, it seems to me. Joffrey's the king now, and that makes you and your boy and all those fools out there no better than rebels. 

 

The only reason the Tully's command the Riverlands is because the Crown allowed them. 

4 hours ago, Ylath's Snout said:

IMHO getting to pass the bridge by paying the toll wouldn't have been blackmail. As that would just have been standard operating procedure.

what should the toll be in making an enemy of the king of westeros? 

Walder's price was more than fair. 

4 hours ago, Ylath's Snout said:

Demanding two marriages for doing what is expected of you

how is committing treason doing what you are expected? 

Robb has no command over Walder, he can't just turn up, kill all the ravens entering and leaving the Twins and be expected to be treated like an ally. 

4 hours ago, Ylath's Snout said:

 

is much more blackmail-y IMHO. Should all the other bannermen Robb and Hoster demanded a marriage to do their duty?

their duty is not to help Robb rebel against the crown. 

4 hours ago, Ylath's Snout said:

Isn't the same true of Robb though?

at the time of the marriage pact, no. 

and the Starks are in a better position than the Tullys, they owe their rule of the North to themselves, not the charity of the Targs and Baratheons like the Tully's. 

4 hours ago, Ylath's Snout said:

Maybe but he never takes any actions to move things along either.

You know this how? 

And explain what you think he should have done? Robb never informed him that he was going West, he didn't even tell Edmure or Roose how long he would be gone for. How exactly could Walder have made the marriage happen sooner? And why should he assume that Robb made a deal in bad faith? 

[Yukle]

Nothing says honour like wedding and bedding a woman who has no say in the matter.  

[Dorian Martell's son]

On 5/21/2018 at 2:14 PM, Frey Kings said:

Just as Ned and Jon Arryn. tsk tsk

No, ned went north and called his banners and marched south to join bob before he got married. Read first, then write the post afterwards 

 

On 5/21/2018 at 2:32 PM, Frey Kings said:

Eat it. You Staunch Stark loyalists, Eat it. 

You mean the ones who fought with ned before he got married to cat? 

[norwaywolf123]

The Starks are holier than thou.

[norwaywolf123]

22 hours ago, Megorova said:

1. Freys were unprepared to held a wedding;

Fair point, but this is only desire for a proper wedding it is not neccesary.

22 hours ago, Megorova said:

1.  maybe they didn't even had a septon in their castle at that time;

All great houses should have a Septon. I would be suprised if House Frey did not have a Speton at all times.

22 hours ago, Megorova said:

1.  also Robb and his troops were in a hurry to get to Riverrun;
2.  and most likely Walder wanted to invite lords of Riverlands, to brag to them about his accomplishment, he wanted them to be present on the wedding, and see his triumph;
3. most likely, not all of Walder's daughters and grandaughters of marritable age were present at the Twins, so they all needed time to gather there;
4. as other people has mentioned above, it was too risky for Walder to marry one of Freys to a rebel. Because if Robb would have lost in a war to Lannisters, then Walder and his entire family would have been accused in conspiracy with Starks. Though, as long as the wedding didn't happened, he can claim, that he was unaware of what was happening between Starks and Lannisters. That he was just minding his own business, and his family. That he's just an old man, and he doesn't deal anymore with politics and stuff like that. So when Cat Tully, daughter of his liege lord, came to the Twins, and asked Walder to let her people thru, he did it without knowing, that they were going into war against Lannisters and Crown.

1. Good point. But the marriage could still happen.

2. Good point.

3. Good point,

4. Good point. Still Walder would have conspired against the crown by just letting the Starks pass the Twins.

[Nowy Tends]

8 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Who told you that? 

History. That's part of the feudal contract.

[Angel Eyes]

Aw, man. Did nobody get my Weird Al/Michael Jackson joke?

[Bernie Mac]

2 hours ago, Nowy Tends said:

History. That's part of the feudal contract.

No, history does not teach that. You are over simplifying 600 years of rule over a number of countries and territories which would often have differences in what they perceived to be their law, there was no uniform understanding of the obligations across all of europe for the entire feudalism era. I really hope this education you are constantly boasting about has not taught you this. You should really sceencap some of the stuff you come out with as it is legitimate grounds for some kind of refund. 

There are numerous examples of regional nobles siding with the king over the person who was directly above them when rebellions happened. The feudal contract was about relationships and power,  the idea that there was some kind of contract that stipulated that the king was not to be obeyed because one of his vassals outranked him in his territory is inaccurate. It would vary on the situation, era and region. Kings expected to be obeyed

 

Secondly Westeros is not real, GRRM has been more than clear that the laws are purposefully vague. That when people like Walder and Jaime point out the multiple oaths they have that there is not one that overrules the others, that it is up to the individual to decide. 

[Valyrian Lance]

Quote

Lord Walder Frey might be sworn to Riverrun, but he was a cautious man who had lived a long time by making certain he was always on the winning side.

Waiting and watching and being cautious suited Walder Frey just fine.

It also suited Robb.

[John Suburbs]

21 hours ago, Ylath's Snout said:

Robb needed more levels in Paladin. Pretty sure they get bonuses to ressisting breaking the code of conduct.

Ranger/Paladin is weird multiclass combo any way. ^^

Good grief, I haven't played that game in decades. I never played a paladin. I was either a magic-user or a cleric, or the DM because few of my friends could keep the game on track.

[Ylath's Snout]

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Good grief, I haven't played that game in decades. I never played a paladin. I was either a magic-user or a cleric, or the DM because few of my friends could keep the game on track.

Paladins are pretty playable in fifth edition. They come in several different flavors and their "code of conduct" are much clearer and reasonable than they were in previous editions.

[Lord Lannister]

Eh, why do people feel the need to create threads just to bash whatever character(s) they don't happen to like?

[Chancho]

On ‎5‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 5:38 PM, Bernie Mac said:

not really. Robb was taking his army and leaving the North. There was a goo chance that the Tully's would either lose their seat or their position as the rulers of the Riverlands from the Crown.  

 

That is so true and often overlooked... Men, Robb intended to left the Riverlanders to "die", they would be so fucked up, it's no joke, with a Strong opposition the lannisters did what they did, they burned the riverlands to ashes, now imagine.... When Robb heads north, the banged up riverland's army, demoralized by their king's departure, Tywin victory and new alliance... my god the corpse of the riverlands will be kicked to eternal-perpetual death if they don't surrender.  

Only a riverland retard wouldn't renegate this king on this circumstances... 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

On 5/21/2018 at 4:14 PM, Frey Kings said:

Just as Ned and Jon Arryn. tsk tsk

The "Late Lord Frey" wouldn't have allowed that. If his daughter or granddaughter had married Robb and then things went south, Walder himself would be up on charges of treason with no hope of weaseling his way out of it.

By not having the wedding beforehand, Walder had wiggle room to claim he was never going to honor the agreement.

[Bernie Mac]

6 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

The "Late Lord Frey" wouldn't have allowed that. If his daughter or granddaughter had married Robb and then things went south, Walder himself would be up on charges of treason with no hope of weaseling his way out of it.

How so? His daughter marrying Robb is not treason, him giving military support to Robb to attack the Crown's army is treason. 

He can't hope that Tywin somehow missed the Frey banners with fighting with Robb in every single battle Robb was in. 

6 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

By not having the wedding beforehand, Walder had wiggle room to claim he was never going to honor the agreement.

No, he does not. By not giving military support he has that wiggle room. The marriage is immaterial. His daughter married Edmure, that has not condemned Walder by association. 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Just now, Bernie Mac said:

How so? His daughter marrying Robb is not treason, him giving military support to Robb to attack the Crown's army is treason. 

He can't hope that Tywin somehow missed the Frey banners with fighting with Robb in every single battle Robb was in. 

No, he does not. By not giving military support he has that wiggle room. The marriage is immaterial. His daughter married Edmure, that has not condemned Walder by association. 

Because the marriage was part of the agreement that had him lending military support. Without that part being in there, all Walder does is let Robb use his bridge--something that's perfectly legal. No marriage, no Frey soldiers for Robb. A marriage is a binding and permanent alliance, in theory. You can always pull your troops back but you can't necessarily take your daughter back, or any of her children.

Of course he didn't think Tywin missed the Frey banners, that's why he did his part in the Red Wedding. He gets a pass on his having lent soldiers to Robb and gets revenge for slight of Robb marrying someone else. If Robb had remained single and started losing, Walder still would have pulled something and claimed he wasn't ever fully committed. 

Look at the marriages Lord Frey has worked out for his children and grandchildren. No marriage is immaterial to Walder. Through those alliances he is the best-connected man in Westeros, and beyond.

Edmure didn't put on a crown. Edmure is not leading two regions in rebellion. Edmure is not the son of the largely respected Ned Stark, hero of Robert's Rebellion. Edmure is not even Lord Paramount of the Riverlands because that has been given to Littlefinger. Edmure is small potatoes, and it's understood that the Frey's will happily let him be executed if Roslin's baby is a boy. 

Robb's bride would have been Queen of the North and the Riverlands, and her child would have been heir to the combined throne. The men of both regions would have been willing to continue fighting in Robb's name for the sake of his son. And there's the added emotional bonus for the any of the Lannister's enemies in fighting for the son of a tragic undefeated king brought down in his prime, and the grandson of the sainted Eddard Stark who was killed by the treachery of of a Lannister king.

There's a huge difference between the two from a political standpoint.