If Robb was truly honorable, he would've wed and bed Roslin at the Twins before his campaign

[300 H&H Magnum]

If Robb was truly honorable, he would've wed and bed Roslin at the Twins before his campaign.

Robb was not honorable so he followed his selfish heart.  He, his family, and some of his bannermen paid the price for his selfishness.  

[Angel Eyes]

53 minutes ago, 300 H&H Magnum said:

If Robb was truly honorable, he would've wed and bed Roslin at the Twins before his campaign.

Robb was not honorable so he followed his selfish heart.  He, his family, and some of his bannermen paid the price for his selfishness.  

On Roose Bolton’s end, the price was iron.

[Bernie Mac]

1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Because the marriage was part of the agreement that had him lending military support. Without that part being in there, all Walder does is let Robb use his bridge--something that's perfectly legal. No marriage, no Frey soldiers for Robb. A marriage is a binding and permanent alliance, in theory.

I'm sorry, but you have completely lost me. you say that Walder made sure the marriage did not take place so he could have wiggle room but he has already committed treason. He has already sent military support against 

• Jaime at Riverrun
• Against Tywin at the Green Fork, Tywin not only saw the Frey banners but took 6 of Walder's sons prisoner in the process
• Against Stafford in the Westerlands

I really don't understand where there is wiggle room as the treason has already been committed. 

1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

 

You can always pull your troops back but you can't necessarily take your daughter back, or any of her children.

of course you can. the fact that he married Roslin to Edmure proves this is not true, or better yet Walder Frey's older sister who married Lord Butterwell while he was organizing the second Blackfyre Rebellion. 

1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Of course he didn't think Tywin missed the Frey banners, that's why he did his part in the Red Wedding.

No, according to the author he committed the Red Wedding because Robb broke his promise about marrying one of his own. 

If his intention was to betray Robb from the start he would never have opened the gates in the first place. 

1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

 

He gets a pass on his having lent soldiers to Robb and gets revenge for slight of Robb marrying someone else. If Robb had remained single and started losing, Walder still would have pulled something and claimed he wasn't ever fully committed. 

 right, but he could have done that even if Robb married one of the many Frey options there was. Walder still gets his prestigious marriage and a possible jackpot of an early pregnancy 

1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Look at the marriages Lord Frey has worked out for his children and grandchildren. No marriage is immaterial to Walder. Through those alliances he is the best-connected man in Westeros, and beyond.

so not marrying Robb straight away makes little sense. the sooner the marriage the sooner the chances of children, the more chance that one of the Frey's descendants could inherit the North. 

1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Edmure didn't put on a crown.

Nor had Robb at the point of the marriage negotiation. Independence was not on Robb's radar. So not sure why this is relevant. 

1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Edmure is not leading two regions in rebellion.

Nor was Robb at the time of the marriage pact. 

1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

 

Edmure is not the son of the largely respected Ned Stark, hero of Robert's Rebellion.

i'm not sure your point on this one. 

1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

 

Edmure is not even Lord Paramount of the Riverlands because that has been given to Littlefinger.

 nor was Robb, his father was still the Ruler of the North at the time of the pact. 

1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

 

Edmure is small potatoes, and it's understood that the Frey's will happily let him be executed if Roslin's baby is a boy. 

So if they were happy for the small potato to marry a Frey then they'd be more eager not less to quickly marry Robb to one of their own. 

1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Robb's bride would have been Queen of the North and the Riverlands, and her child would have been heir to the combined throne.

not at the time of the marriage alliance she would not have. This is not a reason why Walder would have stalled. 

1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

 

 

There's a huge difference between the two from a political standpoint. 

no, there is not, not at the time the marriage pact was made. 

[norwaywolf123]

On 5/24/2018 at 2:49 AM, Chancho said:

That is so true and often overlooked... Men, Robb intended to left the Riverlanders to "die", they would be so fucked up, it's no joke, with a Strong opposition the lannisters did what they did, they burned the riverlands to ashes, now imagine.... When Robb heads north, the banged up riverland's army, demoralized by their king's departure, Tywin victory and new alliance... my god the corpse of the riverlands will be kicked to eternal-perpetual death if they don't surrender.  

Only a riverland retard wouldn't renegate this king on this circumstances... 

The red wedding probably helped the Starks retain their reputation in the Riverlands. If Robb had left, he might become alot more unpopular as the Riverlanders feel betrayed.

 

[Blackfish Tully]

On 5/23/2018 at 8:49 PM, Chancho said:

That is so true and often overlooked... Men, Robb intended to left the Riverlanders to "die", they would be so fucked up, it's no joke, with a Strong opposition the lannisters did what they did, they burned the riverlands to ashes, now imagine.... When Robb heads north, the banged up riverland's army, demoralized by their king's departure, Tywin victory and new alliance... my god the corpse of the riverlands will be kicked to eternal-perpetual death if they don't surrender.  

Only a riverland retard wouldn't renegate this king on this circumstances... 

Robb left his mother and his possibly pregnant wife in the Riverlands when he went North so why would you think he is leaving the Riverlands to die? For his Northern/Riverlands kingdom to have any chance to survive he needs to drive the Iron Born out of the North so he would have access to the full resources of both the North and Riverlands . He had a great plan to destroy the Iron Born at Moat Calin and then he would just need to clean them out of the rest of the North before he came back South . The Riverlands would just have to hold out long enough for Robb to make it back,  also why would the Riverlands army be demoralized ? they just defeated Tywin at the Fords and should have a lot a confidence in Edmure because of that victory and everybody respects Blackfish who is the Warden of the Southern Marches and they will be fighting on home territory and their armies are battle tested and they know they have the support of the North .  Don't forget that not soon after this the Iron Born attacked the Reach and the Golden Company attacked the Stormlands so the Iron Throne will have  it's own problems including Dorne possible joining  either Aegon or Dany and Stannis still being alive. . The war was a long way from being over .  

[BlackLightning]

On 5/21/2018 at 10:58 PM, Angel Eyes said:

How much preparation was put into Catelyn’s marriage to Ned?

The thing about Catelyn's marriage to Ned is that it was technically already prepared.

Remember Catelyn was to marry Ned's older brother, Brandon. But Brandon ran off when he heard what had happened with Lyanna. Shortly thereafter he dies. So....Everything was already in order for that wedding. So the real question isn't how much preparation was put into Catelyn's marriage to Ned. The real question is how much preparation was put into Lysa's marriage to Jon Arryn. To be completely honest, that's probably yet another reason why Lysa became so hateful and deranged.

 

**This is my first post everyone!!! I've been lurking here for a while**

[Lady Blizzardborn]

17 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

I really don't understand where there is wiggle room as the treason has already been committed. 

Think of it this way: Walder can support whoever he wants (not without consequences of course) but he is far more likely to support someone who marries into his family because their line will have Frey blood in the future. The marriage alliances he's already got are extensive, and it's not likely that anyone doubts the reason. Walder's favorite pastime, aside from begetting more heirs and arranging marriages, is complaining about not getting a Tully match, which would have given him Frey blood at Riverrun. The marriages he brokers are meant to benefit him and his ego above all else, so he wouldn't commit to one lightly.

Walder is a weasel, and everyone knows it, but he's not stupid. He's been around long enough to know how Tywin Lannister operates and that he can be forgiven for providing troops. He might not be as easily forgiven for a marriage alliance with a Stark. 
 

17 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

of course you can. the fact that he married Roslin to Edmure proves this is not true, or better yet Walder Frey's older sister who married Lord Butterwell while he was organizing the second Blackfyre Rebellion. 

There was no proof that old Lord Frey conspired with the Blackfyres. He probably did, but no proof. Walder's sister had to be disposed of in marriage quickly, and Butterwell was in the market. Where is it stated that Walder's sister or any children were reclaimed by her father after Butterwell's disgrace?

Roslin isn't going to be taken back. Edmure's going to be disposed of as soon as he's sired a son, and the son will be Walder's little puppet. Not the same thing as taking a bride from her still living husband.

17 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

If his intention was to betray Robb from the start he would never have opened the gates in the first place. 

Yes the Red Wedding was a big f--- you to Robb for breaking his word. But Walder obviously cleared it with Tywin first. If it was just about the broken promise he could have taken Robb captive, messed him up, and handed him over to the crown. He didn't need to slaughter so many people. Tywin would have been happy to accept the surrender of Robb's men and reinstate all of them as long as he had the Young Wolf.

Much as Tywin had to do something huge at the end of Robert's Rebellion, Walder had to do something massive to make amends. The Freys didn't just throw the whole thing together in a weekend. It was carefully planned in advance, in detail.  And, as Tyrion said, they never would have done it without Tywin's approval. The Rains of Castamere serves almost a quadruple purpose in the RW: it signals when to start the slaughter; it symbolizes Lannister support for the slaughter; it fits from Walder's perspective as he sees Robb as the ambitious and too-proud lord; and it fits with Walder himself as the prideful and ambitious lord whose house may be brought down because of his attempts to rise above others. Brilliant touch by Martin.

17 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

If his intention was to betray Robb from the start he would never have opened the gates in the first place. 

I'm not saying he intended to betray Robb from the start. I'm saying he wanted to keep an escape route viable in case he needed it.

17 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

 

i'm not sure your point on this one. 

The Stark name goes back 8,000 years. They've been Lords of Winterfell all that time, Lords Paramount and Wardens of the North for 300 years, and Kings before that.  The Tullys, while also a First Men family, do not have anywhere near the clout or reputation of the Starks. They've only been in charge of the Riverlands since Aegon's Conquest. Robb is a much, much bigger fish.

Everyone knew Walder wanted a Tully, so nobody cared about Roslin marrying Edmure. Plus that was the bait for the Red Wedding...a necessary evil if you will.

As to the rest. I had the timeline messed up in my mind. My mistake.

[Chancho]

6 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

Robb left his mother and his possibly pregnant wife in the Riverlands when he went North so why would you think he is leaving the Riverlands to die? For his Northern/Riverlands kingdom to have any chance to survive he needs to drive the Iron Born out of the North so he would have access to the full resources of both the North and Riverlands . He had a great plan to destroy the Iron Born at Moat Calin and then he would just need to clean them out of the rest of the North before he came back South . The Riverlands would just have to hold out long enough for Robb to make it back,  also why would the Riverlands army be demoralized ? they just defeated Tywin at the Fords and should have a lot a confidence in Edmure because of that victory and everybody respects Blackfish who is the Warden of the Southern Marches and they will be fighting on home territory and their armies are battle tested and they know they have the support of the North .  Don't forget that not soon after this the Iron Born attacked the Reach and the Golden Company attacked the Stormlands so the Iron Throne will have  it's own problems including Dorne possible joining  either Aegon or Dany and Stannis still being alive. . The war was a long way from being over .  

What support from the North, Jeyne and Catelyn will do what good agaisnt their enemies? Robb is leaving with his already banged up army to fight the ironborn and clear his lands, nobody know what the result of that is going to be, They will surely lose more men in any case... Karstarks are gone, the north army got wrecked at duskendale, Roose let the rest of the men to get raped by the mountain, stone hedge was left as a pile o rubbish, darry was fucked several times, maindepool fell, among others... harrenhal retaked by tywin... Lords who are not even in the line of fire (Roose and Walder) are turning agaisnt Robb, so i bet the riverlords who are going to endure all this shit and get their lands trounced will be just there for Robb and his lost cause... Tywin isn't in a hurry no more, can take his time to rape the riverlands one last time. Don't forget that nobody knows the future and they don't have the luxury to wishfull thinking, plenty has be discussed in the series about losing hope on winning after blackwater, Robb taking his army north is just the bitter cherry in the cake...

[Bernie Mac]

14 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

Robb left his mother and his possibly pregnant wife in the Riverlands when he went North so why would you think he is leaving the Riverlands to die?

Die is the wrong word, but he was leaving them incredibly vulnerable and likely to be taken while he was gone. He didn't have any choice in the matter, but with an 80k Crown army on the Riverland doorstop the Riverlands, with or without him, was going to be taken. Without him their odds further decreased

14 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

 He had a great plan to destroy the Iron Born at Moat Calin  

No he didn't. He had a plan, we have no idea if it was 'great'. He was hoping to sail home via the Vale but his aunt refused him so he had no other options but to take Moat Cailin from the land. 

Honestly, this tired of argument of yours that everything Robb does is perfect is tiresome. He was a 16 year old kid who had some great victories but ultimately was out of his depth when commanding and defending a kingdom, the destruction of Winterfell and three of his own captains mutinying on him tells the reader that much. 

 

10 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Think of it this way: Walder can support whoever he wants (not without consequences of course) but he is far more likely to support someone who marries into his family because their line will have Frey blood in the future.

yeah, i'm still not sure how this relates into him purposefully delaying the marriage he has already paid for.

10 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

 

The marriage alliances he's already got are extensive, and it's not likely that anyone doubts the reason. Walder's favorite pastime, aside from begetting more heirs and arranging marriages, is complaining about not getting a Tully match, which would have given him Frey blood at Riverrun. The marriages he brokers are meant to benefit him and his ego above all else, so he wouldn't commit to one lightly.

eh? no one has claimed that he did. but clearly he was committed to it, he sent a fith of his foot to their deaths at the Green Fork because of this marriage.

10 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Walder is a weasel, and everyone knows it, but he's not stupid. He's been around long enough to know how Tywin Lannister operates and that he can be forgiven for providing troops. He might not be as easily forgiven for a marriage alliance with a Stark. 

that makes no sense whatsoever. Walder offering military support is the reason why Tywin's son is captured, his cousin killed and his armies at Riverrun and Oxcrosss defeated. We are talking thousands of soldiers deaths, his homeland invaded. This is much, much worse than a marriage. 

10 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

There was no proof that old Lord Frey conspired with the Blackfyres. He probably did, but no proof. Walder's sister had to be disposed of in marriage quickly, and Butterwell was in the market. Where is it stated that Walder's sister or any children were reclaimed by her father after Butterwell's disgrace?

Butterwell remained a noble though he lost lands. 

10 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Roslin isn't going to be taken back.

She has not left. She is still at the Twins. Jaime points out that after she had her baby she can join her husband at the Rock, but she has not left the Twins.

 

10 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

 

Edmure's going to be disposed of as soon as he's sired a son,

No, he was not. 

 "You as well, if the Wall appeals to you. Or you may go to Casterly Rock as my captive and enjoy all the comforts and courtesy that befits a hostage of your rank. "

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"So long as he does not attempt escape or plot rebellion, Edmure will live a long life."

 

10 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

and the son will be Walder's little puppet. Not the same thing as taking a bride from her still living husband.

No, the son or daughter would have been the Crown's puppet. 

 If her child is a boy, he will serve House Lannister as a page and a squire, and when he earns his knighthood we'll bestow some lands upon him. Should Roslin give you a daughter, I'll see her well dowered when she's old enough to wed. 

10 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Yes the Red Wedding was a big f--- you to Robb for breaking his word. But Walder obviously cleared it with Tywin first. If it was just about the broken promise he could have taken Robb captive,messed him up, and handed him over to the crown.

from Walder's point of view it was about getting revenge on Robb's betrayal that cost him the life of his chosen heir, two grandsons, a greatgrandson and around 800 Frey troops. 

Walder wanted Robb dead. 

10 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

He didn't need to slaughter so many people.

No but Roose did. He can only take the North if all the other factions are weakened. 

10 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Tywin would have been happy to accept the surrender of Robb's men and reinstate all of them as long as he had the Young Wolf.

He may have, but Walder wanted him dead and Roose needed his northern opponents removed. 

10 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Much as Tywin had to do something huge at the end of Robert's Rebellion, Walder had to do something massive to make amends.

Sure, though I am not clear what this has to do with your claim that it was Walder who delayed the wedding. 

 

10 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I'm not saying he intended to betray Robb from the start. I'm saying he wanted to keep an escape route viable in case he needed it.

he always had that escape route. 

and no one, not Robb, Tywin or Walder thought this war was going to escalate like it did. Joffrey executing Ned and Renly and Stannis rebelling changed everything, all these events took place after the negotiation. 

10 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

The Stark name goes back 8,000 years. They've been Lords of Winterfell all that time, Lords Paramount and Wardens of the North for 300 years, and Kings before that.  The Tullys, while also a First Men family, do not have anywhere near the clout or reputation of the Starks. They've only been in charge of the Riverlands since Aegon's Conquest. Robb is a much, much bigger fish.

which means Walder would be more in favor of getting the marriage done as quickly as possible 

10 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Everyone knew Walder wanted a Tully, so nobody cared about Roslin marrying Edmure. Plus that was the bait for the Red Wedding...a necessary evil if you will.

how on earth does Walder predict that Ned will be executed, that Robb will declare himself king, that the North will be attacked by the Ironborn, that Winterfell, were he sent two of his grandsons will be captured and burnt which will make Robb depressed after he has been injured which in turn means he will fall in love with his nurse and then marry her;  and that the Tyrells will join up with the crown, that Edmure will fight Tywin and be blamed for the Blackwater and in turn made to marry a Frey all so the Red Wedding can happen? 

I'm sorry, it makes no sense that Walder could be planning for an eventuality like that, not at that point in the series. 

 

[Blackfish Tully]

4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Honestly, this tired of argument of yours that everything Robb does is perfect is tiresome. He was a 16 year old kid who had some great victories but ultimately was out of his depth when commanding and defending a kingdom, the destruction of Winterfell and three of his own captains mutinying on him tells the reader that much. 

 

this is a pretty strange comment . I've said many times that Robb made plenty of mistakes but i guess you just ignore anything that doesn't fit into your anti-Robb world view . 

 

4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

 

No he didn't. He had a plan, we have no idea if it was 'great'. He was hoping to sail home via the Vale but his aunt refused him so he had no other options but to take Moat Cailin from the land. 

y

He had 12,000 men ready to attack Moat Calin from several different sides while the Iron Born had less then a 100 men left there so I feel pretty good that he would have won pretty easily but then again i think Robb is perfect  but I'm sure you could come up with a better plan . 

From the south," said Robb. "But if we can attack from the north and west simultaneously, and take the ironmen in the rear while they are beating off what they think is my main thrust up the causeway, then we have a chance. Once I link up with Lord Bolton and the Freys, I will have more than twelve thousand men. I mean to divide them into three battles and start up the causeway a half-day apart. If the Greyjoys have eyes south of the Neck, they will see my whole strength rushing headlong at Moat Cailin.

 

4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Die is the wrong word, but he was leaving them incredibly vulnerable and likely to be taken while he was gone. He didn't have any choice in the matter, but with an 80k Crown army on the Riverland doorstop the Riverlands, with or without him, was going to be taken. Without him their odds further decreased

 

Robb had no choice but to head back North and clean out the Iron Born if he wanted to continue the war against the Lannisters . He needed the full support of the Northern resources and manpower to have a chance . It was no different then what Tywin did in heading West and leaving Kings Landing vulnerable to Stannis , it's the best move in both cases . The Riverlands would just have to hold out long enough for Robb to return and frankly that's the whole point of having these massive castles and with Blackfish leading them they could not have a more experienced leader . The Crown army had to be really careful because they had no idea when Robb would return so the last thing they would want is to be laying siege to Riverrun when he returns and have a repeat of the battle of the Camps. With the Iron Born attacking the Reach and the Golden Company attacking the Stormlands soon after Robb went North  things could have turned pretty quickly in Robb's favor . 

[Blackfish Tully]

6 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Honestly, this tired of argument of yours that everything Robb does is perfect is tiresome. He was a 16 year old kid who had some great victories but ultimately was out of his depth when commanding and defending a kingdom, the destruction of Winterfell and three of his own captains mutinying on him tells the reader that much. 

. 

Just to save you from having to deal with being "tiresome" here is a post i made less than a week ago in another topic admitting that Robb made big mistakes so hopefully this helps you get past it.  

 

expect for the fact that sieges are unpredictable , that siege could have lasted a year or just one day but Edmure lacked the foresight to see that Tywin in the Westerlands was the best plan and that's OK , everybody makes mistakes , Robb made mistakes some really big ones and so did Edmure so I'm not sure why it's so hard to admit that .

[Bernie Mac]

 

Quote

 

here is a post i made less than a week ago in another topic admitting that Robb made big mistakes so hopefully this helps you get past it.  

go then, name the military mistakes Robb made. 

 

4 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

this is a pretty strange comment . I've said many times that Robb made plenty of mistakes but i guess you just ignore anything that doesn't fit into your anti-Robb world view . 

yes, you have vaguely stated it but you have never pointed them out and when simple things are pointed out to you like

• The odds were not in favor when Robb was in the West
• he was leaving the Riverlands very vulnerable when he retreated West
• he was injured at the Crag
• he left Winterfell exposed
• the Blackfish would have lost Riverrrun to Jaime

you argue like a terrier on the basis that the characters you love, one of whom you have named yourself after, can't possibly be wrong with no other reason that when the Blackfish says something it comes true regardless of the facts of the situation

the last two 'debates' I stopped as it became painfully obvious that you had nothing to actually say and decided to let you have the last word, big mistake on my part as you have clearly misinterpreted that as some kind of victory

Quote

 

He had 12,000 men ready to attack Moat Calin from several different sides while the Iron Born had less then a 100 men left there

first of all they did not have less that a 100, but more importantly he did not know that, he wrongly thought that the majority of the Ironborn would still be there. 

More importantly his plan was to do the very same even before news of Balon's death arrived. the enemy abandoning the battlefield because of extenuating circumstances is not down to Robb's great planning, it down to pure luck. 

• his mother ignoring him and going into the Twins and forcing an agreement with Walder is not down to Robb's great planning, 
• Jaime acting like an idiot and personally going to deal with bandits was not down to great planning
• the fact that none of Jaime's 2,500 riders were able to warn the sleeping army at Riverrun is not down to great planning, it was pure luck
• the fact that his direwolf found a hidden entrance into the Westerlands was not down to great planning, it was down to pure luck
• the fact that Stafford did not post sentries or scouts around his camp is not down to great planning, it was due to incompetence

 

Balon dying had nothing to do with Robb, the fact that you are counting something that Robb had no control over as an  example of his 'great planning' is bizarre. 

Quote

 

Quote

so I feel pretty good that he would have won pretty easily but then again i think Robb is perfect  but I'm sure you could come up with a better plan . 

dude, I never claimed I could. all I pointed out is that Robb had a plan, that is it. You needing to editorialize it is not needed. we have no idea if it would have succeeded, you have a tendency to just automatically assume things will go right for Robb. it is actually something that Robb himself assumed

Robb looked more amused than afraid. "I have an army to protect me, Mother, I don't need to trust in bread and salt. 

It is precisely why Robb's death was such a game changer, he was set up as the classical fantasy hero who would always find a way no matter the odds. 

Quote

Robb had no choice but to head back North and clean out the Iron Born if he wanted to continue the war against the Lannisters .

his war in the Riverlands was most likely over. Riverland nobles can already see that before his retreat to the North. 

the Crown has an army of around 80k sitting idle outside of Kings Landing, the odds of the 10k Riverland soldiers being able to do a better job of defending their realm than they did a year ago when they were much larger and against a much smaller Westerland host is unlikely. 

Quote

 

He needed the full support of the Northern resources and manpower to have a chance .

no argument here. his only chance, that is what people are pointing out to you. the odds were significantly against him. I have no idea how you can type the above and still argue the opposite. 

 

[Blackfish Tully]

20 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

 

first of all they did not have less that a 100, but more importantly he did not know that, he wrongly thought that the majority of the Ironborn would still be there. 

 

d

Wrong 

"Theon learns there are a mere 65 ironborn left—18 at the Drunkard's Tower and 47 at the Gatehouse Tower—and only 58 of them are combat capable"

also Robb knew that the Kingsmoot had been called so Victorian and his captains with their men would be there instead of Moat Calin. 

20 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Balon dying had nothing to do with Robb, the fact that you are counting something that Robb had no control over as an  example of his 'great planning' is bizarre. 

 

what is so bad about his plan to attack from several different directions at the same time , seems pretty smart to me,  what's wrong with his plan? 

 

20 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

the last two 'debates' I stopped as it became painfully obvious that you had nothing to actually say and decided to let you have the last word, big mistake on my part as you have clearly misinterpreted that as some kind of victory

f

Wow , you certainly take this stuff personally , just some people on a board arguing about a book , no need to get all worked up. 

 

20 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

 

•  

his war in the Riverlands was most likely over. Riverland nobles can already see that before his retreat to the North. 

t

 

which Riverland nobles ? do you have any proof that any Riverlords beside the Freys thought this? how about some quotes ? 

 

20 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

 

go then, name the military mistakes Robb made. 

 

 

trusting Roose Bolton , marrying Jeyne , not telling Edmure his plans , not trading Jaimie for his sisters , sending Theon to his father , trusting the Freys after marrying Jeyne 

[Blackfish Tully]

35 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

no argument here. his only chance, that is what people are pointing out to you. the odds were significantly against him. I have no idea how you can type the above and still argue the opposite. 

 

what's your point here ? just because the odds were against him does not mean he should just give up . Things in war can turn pretty quickly . Tywin was sitting in Harrenhall with 20K while Robb was tearing up the Westerlands and Renly had 60K to 80K men marching on Kings Landing and things were looking pretty bleak and then one shadowbaby later Tywin adds 60K reach soldiers to his own and he easily wins the war . The odds after Blackwater looked similarly bleak for Robb but then Euron abandons the North and attacks the Reach , Tywin dies , the Golden Company attacks the Stormland with Dany probably not to far behind . So if Robb can secure the North and send his army back into the Riverlands things  could go back his way .  

[Bernie Mac]

1 hour ago, Blackfish Tully said:

what's your point here ? just because the odds were against him does not mean he should just give up .

has anyone claimed that? someone claimed Robb was leaving the Riverlands in a very poor position and you went off on one. 

1 hour ago, Blackfish Tully said:

Things in war can turn pretty quickly .

sure they can. we are talking about how vulnerable Robb was leaving the Riverlands, which is absolutely true, he was. 

of course blind luck could interfere and save Robb's hide again, more than possible, but people just commenting on the situation Robb left the Riverlands in. 

 

1 hour ago, Blackfish Tully said:

Tywin was sitting in Harrenhall with 20K while Robb was tearing up the Westerlands and Renly had 60K to 80K men marching on Kings Landing and things were looking pretty bleak and then one shadowbaby later Tywin adds 60K reach soldiers to his own and he easily wins the war .

yup, no one is disputing the odds were against both Tywin and Robb when Renly had that large an army. Renly was more than likely going to win, he was going to be the victor and Tywin and Robb would have to submit to him or face certain defeat. 

No one who supports the other factions has a problem admitting when the odds were against them, it is just you who refuses to accept facts and bleats on about how the Blackfish or Robb had a plan so facts and odds no longer matter. 

1 hour ago, Blackfish Tully said:

 

The odds after Blackwater looked similarly bleak

they looked more so. He had lost his capital, the majority of his army, he was facing a much larger combined royal army (Reach/Westerlands/Stormlands/Crownland army as well as both Dorne and the Vale accepting Joffrey as King) then the one Renly had,  as well as the Ironborn and some of the Riverland nobles were considering their options. 

things were more bleak for Robb, by some margin. 

1 hour ago, Blackfish Tully said:

So if Robb can secure the North and send his army back into the Riverlands things  could go back his way .  

his plan was for much of his host to smash themselves on Moat Cailin, then wipe out the Ironborn. That is months of work, not only would Winter be there but he'd not have any supplies

 

2 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

Wrong 

by the time Theon arrives, not what was originally left. 

2 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

 

also Robb knew that the Kingsmoot had been called so Victorian and his captains with their men would be there instead of Moat Calin. 

but he had zero idea how few would be left. he actually thought the majority would remain

"Succession squabbles or no, the ironborn are not such fools as to abandon Moat Cailin," said Lady Maege.

"No," Robb admitted. "Victarion will leave the best part of his garrison, I'd guess. Every man he takes will be one less man we need to fight, however.

it is was just blind luck that they would almost completely abandon the fortress, it was not down to Robb's great planning. 

2 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

what is so bad about his plan to attack from several different directions at the same time , seems pretty smart to me,  what's wrong with his plan? 

never claimed there was, just pointing that its just a plan, we have no idea if it would have been great or awful.  not even his first option. he wanted to sail in but was denied the option. this is his last resort, he has no other alternative. 

2 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

Wow , you certainly take this stuff personally , just some people on a board arguing about a book , no need to get all worked up. 

maybe if you didn't spam me with two replies every time I reply to you I wouldn;t

and who are you kidding, the only topic you talk about on this site is Robb and the Blackfish, you are named after one of them and got offended when it has been suggested that a character who has had no POV and barely 3 pages of dialogue in the entire series may have not been entirely truthful about his plan in the Westerlands. you are clearly taking this conversation pretty personally. 

in the last robb/blackfish discussion 45 of the 170 replies were from you, more than anyone else in that subject. are you really saying you don't take the topic personally? 

2 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

 

which Riverland nobles ? do you have any proof that any Riverlords beside the Freys thought this? how about some quotes ? 

Ser Harys Haigh, who was a Frey on his mother's side, nodded vigorously. "If Lord Tywin could defeat a seasoned man like Stannis Baratheon, what chance will our boy king have against him?" He looked round to his brothers and cousins for support, and several of them muttered agreement.

 

we only have to look at how quickly in ASOS the likes of Mooton, Vance, Goodbrook and Bracken sent ravens of surrender to Kings Landing to see this, the Riverlands was a spent force. Stannis/Renly still being in the game was their only hope. 

2 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

 

trusting Roose Bolton , marrying Jeyne , not telling Edmure his plans , not trading Jaimie for his sisters , sending Theon to his father , trusting the Freys after marrying Jeyne 

i asked for military mistakes, name all the military blunders you think Robb made

[Blackfish Tully]

55 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

 

i asked for military mistakes, name all the military blunders you think Robb made

i don't care what you asked for , you said that i thought Robb was perfect and so i listed mistakes he made showing Robb was not perfect so I'm done with that stupid part of this argument. 

 

55 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

hand who are you kidding, the only topic you talk about on this site is Robb and the Blackfish, you are named after one of them and got offended when it has been suggested that a character who has had no POV and barely 3 pages of dialogue in the entire series may have not been entirely truthful about his plan in the Westerlands. you are clearly taking this conversation pretty personally. 

in the last robb/blackfish discussion 45 of the 170 replies were from you, more than anyone else in that subject. are you really saying you don't take the topic personally? 

S

 most of the topics on this forum are just stupid so i only post on the ones that interest me and the Riverlands is one of those that i care about along with the situation in the Vale so if you want to start a conversation about Littlefinger's plans going forward i would love to get into that . I'm just on here burning time until the next book comes out. Would you want to only debate with people that just  agreed with everything you posted , how fun would that be ? I've enjoyed our back and forth but if you haven't just stop replying to my posts. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

ary mistakes, name all the military blunders you think Robb made

Couldn't Robb not giving enough information on his military plans with one of his key followers(Edmure), be considered a military mistake?

[Blackfish Tully]

2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Couldn't Robb not giving enough information on his military plans with one of his key followers(Edmure), be considered a military mistake?

I would think that would be military mistake but frankly Robb did not have many military mistakes , the three main battles he was involved in were huge victories . His mistakes were more political (mostly trusting the wrong people) and marrying Jayne . 

[Chancho]

Only Mallisters, Blackwoods and Tullys would be foolish to hold for long after Robb went North...

Mallister were far from the line of fire, but if Walder stops backing Robb he is in trouble fast. Blackwoods are just to honorable for their own good, but they used common sense quick when not having to surrender to A Bracken... Blackfish is just na old men that thinks he got nothing to lose and Edmure would be still fired up for his cause, but he seems a genuine caring Lord so he wouldn't hold forever on pride basis.

Bracken, Piper, Vance, Mooton lands... Everyone else pratically is just beyond salvation land wise.

If they don't what to share the fate of old lady Whent they have to surrender fast.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

On ‎5‎/‎21‎/‎2018 at 7:45 PM, Skahaz mo Kandaq said:

If Robb was truly honorable, he would've wed and bed Roslin at the Twins before his campaign.

IF Robb was honorable, but we know Robb is not an honorable fellow.  Walder Frey assumed Robb was honorable and didn't ask for payment ahead of services.  I guess the old man didn't think anybody would swear an oath and then break it.  

Honor has little to do with that , If Robb was smarter ,he would have wedded Roslin or fat Walda or Margaery Tyrell. .