Joe Abercrombie: The Collected Works 2 (A new trilogy on the horizon)

[Crazydog7]

1 minute ago, BigFatCoward said:

I have sharp ends, i just gave up on Freedom almost immediately, now it looks like i have to go back and finish it, if it contains useful info. 

Not really.  All it says is that the writer from Red Country lived to the age of 95 and is known for other works that give us a clue about where the chips ultimately feel in Stiria but we don't know for sure his "Life of Dab Sweet" is mentioned but also a later work called "Arch duchess of Villiany" so I guess in the future in the union people talk about Monza the way people talk about Lady McBeth.  Yes the name might be correct but they got the details all wrong.  

[Consigliere]

I don't see how "Freedom" gave any clue whatsoever to how things eventually turned out for Monza and Styria. All it says is that Sworbeck wrote a "romantic reimagining" of Monza's career. That he called it "The Grand Duchess of Villainy" is pretty much meaningless. Sworbeck is a Union native after all and Monza wouldn't have been painted in a positive light in The Union especially since she was repeatedly kicking The Union's arse.

[Maithanet]

16 hours ago, Consigliere said:

I don't see how "Freedom" gave any clue whatsoever to how things eventually turned out for Monza and Styria. All it says is that Sworbeck wrote a "romantic reimagining" of Monza's career. That he called it "The Grand Duchess of Villainy" is pretty much meaningless. Sworbeck is a Union native after all and Monza wouldn't have been painted in a positive light in The Union especially since she was repeatedly kicking The Union's arse.

I agree with this take.  You can interpret this (very limited) information in almost any way you choose. 

[Sir Cheese]

Sorry to barge in.
I am a big Joe fan, and I was talking with my other buddy who also likes the books.

But, his theory is that Glokta is the copy od Tyrion, or at least inspired by him.
Very smart, but people dismis him because of his physical attributes.

My two cents are - NO.

Tyrion is a hedonist, and still in a much more better position in the world than Glokta in the begginig of the first book.

[SeanF]

22 hours ago, Maithanet said:

I agree with this take.  You can interpret this (very limited) information in almost any way you choose. 

Monza Murcatto is no doubt regarded as a cruel tyrant in the Union (not unreasonably) but that  doesn't mean she did not win.

[Maithanet]

Welcome to the board!

7 hours ago, Sir Cheese said:

I am a big Joe fan, and I was talking with my other buddy who also likes the books.

But, his theory is that Glokta is the copy od Tyrion, or at least inspired by him.
Very smart, but people dismis him because of his physical attributes.

My two cents are - NO.

Tyrion is a hedonist, and still in a much more better position in the world than Glokta in the begginig of the first book.

They have some similarities, but Glokta is hardly a Tyrion clone.  Their personalities are pretty different, as is the way they interact with people and view the world.  Young Glokta has a lot more in common with Jaime than Tyrion, and the backstory of lost greatness informs his character to a huge extent. 

[Cithrin's Ale]

Speaking of Freedom, the opening prologue to it states that Sworbeck died at the age of 95. Unless Age of Madness covers multiple decades, this indicates that this prologue was actually written after the events of the Age of Madness trilogy since Sworbeck wasn't described as an elderly man in Red Country.

As to the question of whether or not Monza ultimately won against The Union,

Spoiler

 Three's A Crowd (one of the stories in Sharp Ends) states that Monza beat the Union three times in the field at of 587, which is 3 years after the events of The Heroes; she also crowns her son named Jappo in this story.

Red Country, which takes place in 590, indicates that she was able to score an important victory against Sipani which undoubtedly further consolidated her power. She's clearly done well for herself, although you could make the argument that once she steps down or dies, Styria will be doomed before Gurkhul and the Union.

If Zacharus is able to make something of the Old Empire, by the way, Styria may not be the only example of a potential third superpower in the Circle of the World. As of Red Country, the Old Empire is now unified.

I put the above content in spoilers just in case BigFatCoward considers it spoileresque for Sharp Ends.

[Consigliere]

1 hour ago, Cithrin's Ale said:

Speaking of Freedom, the opening prologue to it states that Sworbeck died at the age of 95. Unless Age of Madness covers multiple decades, this indicates that this prologue was actually written after the events of the Age of Madness trilogy since Sworbeck wasn't described as an elderly man in Red Country.

As to the question of whether or not Monza ultimately won against The Union,

  Reveal hidden contents

 Three's A Crowd (one of the stories in Sharp Ends) states that Monza beat the Union three times in the field at of 587, which is 3 years after the events of The Heroes; she also crowns her son named Jappo in this story.

Red Country, which takes place in 590, indicates that she was able to score an important victory against Sipani which undoubtedly further consolidated her power. She's clearly done well for herself, although you could make the argument that once she steps down or dies, Styria will be doomed before Gurkhul and the Union.

If Zacharus is able to make something of the Old Empire, by the way, Styria may not be the only example of a potential third superpower in the Circle of the World. As of Red Country, the Old Empire is now unified.

I put the above content in spoilers just in case BigFatCoward considers it spoileresque for Sharp Ends.

Even when Monza dies, I expect Shenkt (together with Monza's descendants) will ensure that Styria remains unified and continue to resist becoming puppets to either Bayaz or Khalul. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

2 hours ago, Consigliere said:

Even when Monza dies, I expect Shenkt (together with Monza's descendants) will ensure that Styria remains unified and continue to resist becoming puppets to either Bayaz or Khalul. 

Huh that is something to ponder. I wonder if Shenkt will use Styria to wage war on his former Master in a more direct manner once Monza passes.So far he’s settled for making Styria just resist Bayaz  dominion, but I can’t help but think that’s mainly because Monza’s around now and she’s no interest in seeking war(without any great gain) if it could be avoided. Once Monza dies whose to say his spymaster wife(and perhaps their children if given seats in power), won’t try to make Styria more subservient to Shenkt?

I mean the guy planned on murdering Monza just to prevent Duke Orso from taking control of the country-even if it prolonged a bloody civil war for years-just to spite his former master. 

6 hours ago, Maithanet said:

Welcome to the board!

They have some similarities, but Glokta is hardly a Tyrion clone.  Their personalities are pretty different, as is the way they interact with people and view the world.  Young Glokta has a lot more in common with Jaime than Tyrion, and the backstory of lost greatness informs his character to a huge extent. 

Ardree described Glocka pretty aptly “you’re a ruthless, plotting, bitter, twisted, self-pitying villain”

I could see this description could apply to Jaimie to a degree  but more to Tyrion.

But yeah I do see the similarities between Jamie and Glocka. Both were great, and arrogant swordsmen, whose bravery/reckless nature got them eventually captured by their enemies in a battle, and eventually got mutilated as a result. Both struggle to assimilate to their society.

[Consigliere]

3 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I mean the guy planned on murdering Monza just to prevent Duke Orso from taking control of the country-even if it prolonged a bloody civil war for years-just to spite his former master. 

I don't think Shenkt planned on killing Monza. It seems he took the job with Orso to actually protect her from the other assassins. If he wanted to kill her he could have easily done so in Puranti when she was zoned out on husk but instead he killed most of the other assassins which gave Shivers and Monza the chance to escape. 

 

ETA. scratch that. Just remembered that conversation Shenkt had with Monza near the end of BSC where he tells her that he planned on killing her to weaken Orso.

 

Quote

Huh that is something to ponder. I wonder if Shenkt will use Styria to wage war on his former Master in a more direct manner once Monza passes.So far he’s settled for making Styria just resist Bayaz  dominion, but I can’t help but think that’s mainly because Monza’s around now and she’s no interest in seeking war(without any great gain) if it could be avoided. Once Monza dies whose to say his spymaster wife(and perhaps their children if given seats in power), won’t try to make Styria more subservient to Shenkt?

It wouldn't surprise me at all if Shenkt becomes the puppet master for Styria just the way Bayaz is for The Union, Khalul for Gurkhul and Zacharus for the Old Empire. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

5 hours ago, Consigliere said:

It wouldn't surprise me at all if Shenkt becomes the puppet master for Styria just the way Bayaz is for The Union, Khalul for Gurkhul and Zacharus for the Old Empire. 

Yeah I agree. Shenkt, Bayaz, and the prophet are all quite similar in most aspects we’ve seen. They’re all immoral. They can’t bear the thought of really submitting to another. They each played a role in making in the unification of a country. They all have no moral scruples about researching things that would probably better left alone if they feel they could gain from it. They all put their revenge above all else. 

Though Bayaz is less insufferable  than Shenkt imo. Upon my re-reads of BSC, I couldn’t help but roll my eyes whenever Shenkt “offered” mercy to someone. It was clearly done only to make him feel better about the murders he’s committing. He knows they won’t accept it, and doesn’t give them a real reason to before he starts killing.  At least Bayaz doesn’t generally pretend to care about he kills or offer them deals he knows they won’t accept to placate his conscience. 

I have to wonder how Shenkt could take control-I know Vitarri would probably play some role but I don’t think she’d be enough to cull enough of the powerful people in Styria. Bayaz secures money though money, the prophet through religion, it’d be interesting to see what tool Shenkt use. I mean he’s had a lot of time to amass a fortune for his killings, surely enough to start his own bank, or business.

[Varysblackfyre321]

On 4/17/2019 at 8:44 AM, Crazydog7 said:

Not really.  All it says is that the writer from Red Country lived to the age of 95 and is known for other works that give us a clue about where the chips ultimately feel in Stiria but we don't know for sure his "Life of Dab Sweet" is mentioned but also a later work called "Arch duchess of Villiany" so I guess in the future in the union people talk about Monza the way people talk about Lady McBeth.  Yes the name might be correct but they got the details all wrong.  

Though doesn’t it suggest the union won’t be destroyed in the new trilogy?

[Varysblackfyre321]

Do you think  Yarvi actually believe in his country’s gods? 

[Sir Cheese]

17 hours ago, Maithanet said:

Welcome to the board!

They have some similarities, but Glokta is hardly a Tyrion clone.  Their personalities are pretty different, as is the way they interact with people and view the world.  Young Glokta has a lot more in common with Jaime than Tyrion, and the backstory of lost greatness informs his character to a huge extent. 

Thank you!

I agree on Jaime, although Glotka and Tyrion are more simmilar in the whole "brain" department.

Jaime is no fool, but he is not that level.

[red snow]

Glokta always felt like a tyrion to me. Mainly because they are both shunned/despised for their physical appearance and because both are feared for their ruthlessness. Although with Tyrion that turns out to be less deserved than it first appears (daddy issues aside).

I hadn't thought about Jaime comparisons before but i think there's a level of similarity with redemptive arcs as both realise they've been cogs in a cruel game. Although until the new trilogy is out I'd say there's more chance of Jaime becoming a hero than Glokta.

Actually, Joe tends to favour characters turning out worse over time while GRMM either has them bad from the start or becoming less evil.

[HexMachina]

Glokta knows he is a loathsome POS, even if he sometimes questions why. Tyrion has a rather rosier view of himself

[Varysblackfyre321]

On 4/20/2019 at 1:49 AM, red snow said:

 

Glokta always felt like a tyrion to me. Mainly because they are both shunned/despised for their physical appearance and because both are feared for their ruthlessness. Although with Tyrion that turns out to be less deserved than it first appears (daddy issues aside).

 

 

Meh, I kinda disagree on that. Tyrion is a rapist, and murderer who’d tear an entire country apart to sate his own vegence. However from the Start of the series Tyrion is made to be sympathetic to the audience . His introduction has him giving a fair of helpful advice to the possible messiah. For most of AGOT he’s presented in a favorable light-slapping Joff , giving a schematics to help Bran ride again, playing with Tommen and Mycela. But overtime specifically in ACOK it’s revealed he really that better than his father of siblings. In some instances worse. Like take his journey to get aid Daenerys in taking the IT; the most surest outcome would be the death of his niece and nephew. It doesn’t seem to truly register as an issue for him. He is in fact sacrificing them and the rest of his kin. for his own political ambitions and  want for revenge against  Cersi-a woman who honestly he’s wronged more than actually wronged by( I mean he did kidnap one her sons,only really to spite her). 

Glocka is a monster in own right but at least he fully acknowledges all the people who will be destroyed by him rather than just the ones who has an issue with.

[SeanF]

On 20 April 2019 at 3:25 AM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Yeah I agree. Shenkt, Bayaz, and the prophet are all quite similar in most aspects we’ve seen. They’re all immoral. They can’t bear the thought of really submitting to another. They each played a role in making in the unification of a country. They all have no moral scruples about researching things that would probably better left alone if they feel they could gain from it. They all put their revenge above all else. 

Though Bayaz is less insufferable  than Shenkt imo. Upon my re-reads of BSC, I couldn’t help but roll my eyes whenever Shenkt “offered” mercy to someone. It was clearly done only to make him feel better about the murders he’s committing. He knows they won’t accept it, and doesn’t give them a real reason to before he starts killing.  At least Bayaz doesn’t generally pretend to care about he kills or offer them deals he knows they won’t accept to placate his conscience. 

I have to wonder how Shenkt could take control-I know Vitarri would probably play some role but I don’t think she’d be enough to cull enough of the powerful people in Styria. Bayaz secures money though money, the prophet through religion, it’d be interesting to see what tool Shenkt use. I mean he’s had a lot of time to amass a fortune for his killings, surely enough to start his own bank, or business.

Vitari loathes Eaters.  Presumably, that's one secret that Shenkt keeps from her.  

[Varysblackfyre321]

Is Vitari a tool of Shenkt? The positions she acquires put her smack dab with those who’d eventually become a power. I mean she could very easily have simply turned on Monza out to Orso with no risk and huge reward. Honestly, I have to wonder what Shenkt is doing with all his money. I mean the payments he gets for  his assasainations should be enough to set up his family for life-yet Vitari(who really isn’t demonstrated as being a pure sadist) still finds work as a torturer.

[Varysblackfyre321]

In the new trilogy I cannot help but fear that any movement we see concerned with  giving  political, and social rights to the downtrodden, particularly a movement focused on the workers in this new Industrial Age, will merely be co-opted, and eventually destroyed by Bayaz.