Opinions on Ghostwriters for remaining books

[Cornchowder]

*I intend all the respect due to GRRM, his great work, his many obligations, and his creative process*

If it was up to you, would you have GRRM enlist ghostwriters to speed up the publication of the remaining books in the series?

What might be pros and cons of employing ghostwriters be for GRRM personally, and for us as a community of readers?

IMO

Pro for George:

1. Time for other projects
2. Reduced stress
3. Getting paid

Cons

1. Changing his creative process
2. Giving up some control
3. Perceived loss of quality

Many members of this community have been waiting a long time to read this story. For me, the slow pace of releases makes me reluctant to invest time in GRRM's other work. I enjoy peripheral content like novellas and histories because they add depth and texture to the story. But, without that story in place they are like toppings without the pizza; I like them, but I'm not going to order them without a pizza underneath.

[Deepbollywood Motte]

Nope, I think we would all notice the change in writing style immediately and I rather have the real thing and wait some time for it than some bad rip-off semi-fanfic

[Cornchowder]

I'm not sure that I would notice a change if GRRM heavily edits and approves the work. I'm not talking about fan-fic. More like collaborative writing with GRRM in absolute control. I think the process would be similar to screenwriting, which GRRM is excellent at.

 

 

 

[Deepbollywood Motte]

1 minute ago, Cornchowder said:

I'm not sure that I would notice a change if GRRM heavily edits and approves the work. I'm not talking about fan-fic. More like collaborative writing with GRRM in absolute control. I think the process would be similar to screenwriting, which GRRM is excellent at.

 

 

 

If he has to heavily edit, approve and direct everything I'm sure it would be easier to just write it himself, which he is doing...

[Sigella]

He already has Elio and Linda, why not a few more?

 

Thinking "if I die in a car-crash tomorrow I will never know how it ends" is a real good anxiety-booster  

[The Fattest Leech]

28 minutes ago, Deepbollywood Motte said:

Nope, I think we would all notice the change in writing style immediately and I rather have the real thing and wait some time for it than some bad rip-off semi-fanfic

Yes, yes, yes. I was just having a similar conversation with another last evening. You can tell a great deal in the writing style from George himself over his time writing and developing his craft. He has his own voice the same way any author does. A change in author would be noticed by line #2.

 

In general,

I can't find the article at the moment, but remember when JK Rowling wrote under the pseudonym Richard Galbraith? Readers figured it out rather quickly because of the style and verbiage used. Story telling is much more than just words on paper.

No ghost writer for my vote.

[Megorova]

5 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Yes, yes, yes. I was just having a similar conversation with another last evening. You can tell a great deal in the writing style from George himself over his time writing and developing his craft. He has his own voice the same way any author does. A change in author would be noticed by line #2.

I had an impression, that at least Barristan's chapter in TWOW, was written not by GRRM. So maybe he is already using ghost writers.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Big Bucket Wull had a perfect answer for exactly this sort of a question. It started with "I want to live forever in a land where summer lasts a thousand years. I want a castle in the clouds where I can look down over the world. I want to be six-and-twenty again...".

[Deepbollywood Motte]

13 minutes ago, Megorova said:

I had an impression, that at least Barristan's chapter in TWOW, was written not by GRRM. So maybe he is already using ghost writers.

Wasn't that chapter partly paraphrased from a reading, or was that another one? Anyway, it is an unpublished chapter so maybe in the actual book it will look more recognizable. I haven't read it, only watched some analysis of it.

[The Fattest Leech]

10 minutes ago, Megorova said:

I had an impression, that at least Barristan's chapter in TWOW, was written not by GRRM. So maybe he is already using ghost writers.

Any TWOW spoilers are not considered complete until publication. They are still works in progress. I don't know that I would make that "ghostwriter" call just yet

[Lollygag]

ADWD left me with the distinct impression that I was reading 3 different writers. Some of it was awful with terrible dialog and aimless plotting. Some was middling, while ones like the Theon chapters were outstanding.

I don't think any of it was a ghostwriter, though. I heard ADWD was rushed to be published for the show debut so I suspect that GRRM's style really manifests in the editing process when all of the details are being woven together for the final.

I was noticing recently that there's a lot of transitions hiding in the text which connect the chapters to each other so I can only imagine that the editing process is where things really come to life. As someone who needs a great deal of editing myself, I know that the text can change drastically in this process.

Think a ghostwriter would be a problem and I don't see it happening or turning out well, but if I had to choose, I think Diana Gabaldon would turn out better than some others. I wouldn't mind if he got help from her in this department:

https://www.amazon.com/Give-You-My-Body-Scenes-ebook/dp/B01HA4LFB6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1527021135&sr=8-1&keywords=gabaldon+i+give+you+my+body

 

[bemused]

14 minutes ago, Deepbollywood Motte said:

Wasn't that chapter partly paraphrased from a reading, or was that another one? Anyway, it is an unpublished chapter so maybe in the actual book it will look more recognizable. I haven't read it, only watched some analysis of it.

 Barristan I was the sample chapter in the US paperback. I believe Barristan II was only read out at a convention (no recording allowed). What we got was a fan report based on copious note taking.

[chrisdaw]

lol no. This would all be pointless if it were any other writer.

[Rosetta Stone]

5 hours ago, Cornchowder said:

*I intend all the respect due to GRRM, his great work, his many obligations, and his creative process*

If it was up to you, would you have GRRM enlist ghostwriters to speed up the publication of the remaining books in the series?

What might be pros and cons of employing ghostwriters be for GRRM personally, and for us as a community of readers?

IMO

Pro for George:

1. Time for other projects
2. Reduced stress
3. Getting paid

Cons

1. Changing his creative process
2. Giving up some control
3. Perceived loss of quality

Many members of this community have been waiting a long time to read this story. For me, the slow pace of releases makes me reluctant to invest time in GRRM's other work. I enjoy peripheral content like novellas and histories because they add depth and texture to the story. But, without that story in place they are like toppings without the pizza; I like them, but I'm not going to order them without a pizza underneath.

I would not like anyone other than George Martin to finish the story.  I have yet to come across anybody who isn't biased because the fan base is very polarized between Daenerys and Jon.  I would expect a ghostwriter will be biased as well.  

[shameeka]

Unless he dies before finishing the book and entrusted someone else to finish the story in his will, no. But I think GRRM would want his story to die with him unfinished than letting someone else continue it.

[Bitterblooms]

I would not really be in favor of a ghost writer for ideas above mentioned. 

But darn it I want to know the ending. I need to know the ending for certain characters. 

[Yukle]

Ghost writing isn't necessarily immediately obvious. It's not very hard to adapt somebody's writing to suit another style. It's much harder in longer works, obviously, but the techniques exist to clean writing up. This is how non-fiction texts are written in particular styles. It's hard to conform to a style guide for a long work, but it's not impossible.

Sometimes ghost writing isn't apparent until after the fact. As an example, I know Animorphs was mostly ghost written, using Katherine Applegate's story plans as the basis for each story. Some of them she wrote herself, but the majority of a stretch from books 25 to 51, she didn't. It was interesting - when I was part of a nerdy fan forum for Animorphs in my much younger days, we had two consistent arguments always running: "Which ones were ghostwritten?" and, "Who thought of the concept of mind-control slugs first, Animorphs or Stargate?"

It has been since released which books were ghostwritten. All of the novels in the series were written by Applegate, though. To clarify, there are 54 novellas and 8 novels in the series.

So it was disappointing to learn that some of the series' best moments weren't written by her (such as the 3-part arc following recurring antagonist David and when the war transitioned from secret to open), while some of the terrible parts were (such as when they go back in time to the dinosaurs and magically come back to the present again).

Turns out the ghostwriters were whoever she credited at the start of the book, which was something we as stupid 11-year-olds didn't pick up on.  The Internet was harder to search before Google, in fairness. And we only had 30 minute spurts to use it before our dial-up had to be shut off again.

The reason I bring up this example is that, for the most part, the ones we picked as the ghostwritten ones were usually the books were decided were the worst and the authentic ones were the best. We assumed that Applegate always wrote the best books and didn't write the dodgy ones. It was a disappointing to learn that this wasn't always the case. The series had a very tightly knit continuity to it, and characters did develop, change and adapt over time. Applegate edited the books before publication, rejecting manuscripts that didn't make sense and changing chapters if the characters acted inconsistently to their true motivations.

Obviously, Animorphs books followed an established formula. But some things did make it easier for us to fail to notice the different authors. For one thing, each short novel had one of six protagonists as the narrator. It was harder, therefore, to notice the style changes. Mostly the same ghostwriters would stick with one or two characters. All of them were either editors who worked with Applegate, or writers who she mentored. So they all had close knowledge of the texts.

The books weren't necessarily poorer for it. There were probably too many of them, which is a common criticism of many of the collect-'em-all novellas of the time.

But overall the decision to use ghost-writers was worth it. Applegate was on maternity leave throughout much of the series, and it was hard for her to write full-time. The writing process changed for her from writing every word to instead editing every word. The books still came out regularly, generally every two months or so.

And she still wrote the most important (and also pretty much the best parts) aspects of the canon herself, such as the chapters where key plot points happen, or the novels that provided the backstory and the ones where the narratives shifted between protagonists (called the Chronicles and the Megamorphs).

This all happened with her blessing, and we did notice, in hindsight, the differences between authors. That said, though, it's only if you look for it and already know in advance that it was ghost-written. To this end, I still loved the series as a kid. It was much more satisfying to have the pace of novels kept up, the story keep going and the ending finally come, even if it meant we knew it wasn't the product of just one amazing author any more.

In many ways it's not that different to a TV series, which is written the same way: often one or two creators but the scripts themselves are written by different people.

[HoodedCrow]

I would be okay with ghostwriting. 

I would rather it be George’s, but I am grateful for the story so far, his world and character building, and if he is stressed out doing the end game, then, by all means, he can ask for help with that and we can have a genius supervised ending. Compassion extends even to authors!

I'm also looking forward to his other projects.

[White Ravens]

10 hours ago, Cornchowder said:

*I intend all the respect due to GRRM, his great work, his many obligations, and his creative process*

If it was up to you, would you have GRRM enlist ghostwriters to speed up the publication of the remaining books in the series?

What might be pros and cons of employing ghostwriters be for GRRM personally, and for us as a community of readers?

IMO

Pro for George:

1. Time for other projects
2. Reduced stress
3. Getting paid

Cons

1. Changing his creative process
2. Giving up some control
3. Perceived loss of quality

Many members of this community have been waiting a long time to read this story. For me, the slow pace of releases makes me reluctant to invest time in GRRM's other work. I enjoy peripheral content like novellas and histories because they add depth and texture to the story. But, without that story in place they are like toppings without the pizza; I like them, but I'm not going to order them without a pizza underneath.

Nice qualifier!

GRRM's creative process is his process alone.  I'm all for waiting for him to do it his way regardless of what I want as a fan. 

[Megorova]

14 hours ago, bemused said:

I believe Barristan II was only read out at a convention (no recording allowed). What we got was a fan report based on copious note taking.

I hope so. Because that chapter was totally not like GRRM's style. It did looked more like a dry summarization, than an actual writing.

8 hours ago, Yukle said:

Ghost writing isn't necessarily immediately obvious. It's not very hard to adapt somebody's writing to suit another style. It's much harder in longer works, obviously, but the techniques exist to clean writing up. This is how non-fiction texts are written in particular styles. It's hard to conform to a style guide for a long work, but it's not impossible.

There's too much symbolism and foreshadowings in ASOIAF books. Furthermore it doesn't even look obvious, until those foreshadowed events do happen. I doubt that ghostwriters will be able to copy GRRM's style so well, that they will even be able to incorporate, used by him symbolism. So GRRM still will have to write himself, all those moments of foreshadowing, and there's plenty of them. Though there's also a lot of filler text, inbetween important events. So if that text will be written by ghostwriters, then nobody won't notice, that it was written not by GRRM. I'm not against ghostwriters, as long as important moments, and Jon's and Tyrion's POVs, will be written by GRRM himself, and not by his helpers.