The Answer is (allegedly) Sex Robots

[DMC]

1 hour ago, Maithanet said:

I've often thought about starting a thread about "The Effect of Internet Porn on Society".  To me the entire Incel movement wouldn't be possible without internet porn.  Immediate sexual stimulation is available for free 24/7.  And not just generic stimulation, but pornography that is tailored to every taste and every style.  There are literally tens of thousands of beautiful women (and men) performing sex acts at the click of the mouse, and they can be discarded and passed over just as easily.  

I'm not trying to create an "OMG technology is ruining society" discussion, but it is impossible for me to think that this ISN'T having a huge impact.  It gives people without sexual experience the idea that sex ought to be easy, accessible and tailored to their whim.  And sex robots are only going to make that worse, not better. 

This.  I've tended to roll my eyes at the apparent effect of internet porn, but it really is a drastic change from magazines or jacking off in the shower.  I'm about the perfect age wherein I hit puberty just as the industry became so accessible, but I can't imagine what 12-year-old me would be like if what's available now was then.  Something like:

It's probably the worst atomistic force of the internet, and my prior would definitely be it causes much more violent behavior from men.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

The ads on the side.  Dear lord...

[mankytoes]

1 hour ago, Maithanet said:

I've often thought about starting a thread about "The Effect of Internet Porn on Society".  To me the entire Incel movement wouldn't be possible without internet porn.  Immediate sexual stimulation is available for free 24/7.  And not just generic stimulation, but pornography that is tailored to every taste and every style.  There are literally tens of thousands of beautiful women (and men) performing sex acts at the click of the mouse, and they can be discarded and passed over just as easily.  

I'm not trying to create an "OMG technology is ruining society" discussion, but it is impossible for me to think that this ISN'T having a huge impact.  It gives people without sexual experience the idea that sex ought to be easy, accessible and tailored to their whim.  And sex robots are only going to make that worse, not better. 

Is that how you felt before you had sexual experience? It just seems an odd conclusion from watching porn. From the first time I watched porn, it was obvious that women in porn aren't acting realistically, because girls in real life don't act anything like that. If you're in a room with a girl you both make small talk or shift around awkwardly, she doesn't just grab your dick and start sucking it. 

Porn is clearly fiction, and it doesn't really pretend not to be. Porn didn't make me think sex would be like that any more than GTA made me think I could just go out and start running over random people.

I don't think it's good for pre-pubescent children to watch porn. But for adults? I don't think it's generally a problem. If someone watches porn and thinks that reality will be like that, there's already a problem with them. 

[Maithanet]

9 minutes ago, mankytoes said:

Porn is clearly fiction, and it doesn't really pretend not to be. Porn didn't make me think sex would be like that any more than GTA made me think I could just go out and start running over random people.

Doesn't it?  For the past few years porn has absolutely tried to blur that line with fake "reality/casting" videos.  That's like a whole subgenre in porn, and the entire premise is built on blurring the line between typical porn and just filming someone off the street willing to have sex with you.

Quote

I don't think it's good for pre-pubescent children to watch porn. But for adults? I don't think it's generally a problem. If someone watches porn and thinks that reality will be like that, there's already a problem with them. 

Do beer commercials really convince you that beer makes you more attractive and fun?  After all, you know they're just actors paid to act like they love Bud Light.  And yet every year beer companies spend billions of dollars on advertising.  Seems like it must be having some effect eh?  And people watch porn for a lot longer than 30 second segments.

[Zorral]

6 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

What I cannot wrap my brain around is how anyone can believe they have an “entitlement” to an act that is necessarily dependent upon mutual consent.  It really does reduce anyone who is not “incel” to property in their eyes.

You haven't paid any attention to the history of men's behaviors with women, particularly women that are perceived to be in a socially subordinate position, such as servants, wives, slaves, poor women, cooks, wives, nuns, children, you name it.  We are speaking of the history of men who throughout most of western history at least, never even considered such a thing as 'consent' to be anything that the female of the species possesses.  There were some rules and regs, of course, i.e., don't take the female that belongs to another man, at least if he was a man who had equal or more status, wealth and / or power than you.

Moreover you're not paying any attention to the bs constantly spewed by evangelicals, mormons, and most of the republicans who are politicians in the last 100 years, and particularly in the last 10.

 

[Zorral]

8 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

Doesn't it?  For the past few years porn has absolutely tried to blur that line with fake "reality/casting" videos.  That's like a whole subgenre in porn, and the entire premise is built on blurring the line between typical porn and just filming someone off the street willing to have sex with you.

Do beer commercials really convince you that beer makes you more attractive and fun?  After all, you know they're just actors paid to act like they love Bud Light.  And yet every year beer companies spend billions of dollars on advertising.  Seems like it must be having some effect eh?  And people watch porn for a lot longer than 30 second segments.

Absolutely.  Porn biggest sellers are 'real' women who live next door.

Also, inserting the images of women who have been recorded without their knowledge or consent doing non-porn things into porn -- and guys sending recorded images with or without knowledge and consent of their girlfriends to entire schools.

[mankytoes]

8 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

Doesn't it?  For the past few years porn has absolutely tried to blur that line with fake "reality/casting" videos.  That's like a whole subgenre in porn, and the entire premise is built on blurring the line between typical porn and just filming someone off the street willing to have sex with you.

Do beer commercials really convince you that beer makes you more attractive and fun?  After all, you know they're just actors paid to act like they love Bud Light.  And yet every year beer companies spend billions of dollars on advertising.  Seems like it must be having some effect eh?  And people watch porn for a lot longer than 30 second segments.

I can't really judge as I've never really watched those videos, but I would say that's just a framing device. I mean there is loads of real amateur porn out there, it's one of the most popular genres, and it's generally very different to professional stuff. 

Porn isn't an advert for sex, if it's in the interests of pornographers to promote anything to you, it's more porn. They don't want you to stop watching porn and start having sex. But anyway, beer companies are more trying to get your to drink their  beer than trying to get you to drink beer generally. People drank too much beer and had sexual dysfunction (not deliberately linking the two, though of course sometimes you can) long before beer advertising and pornography came along. 

It does worry me that there seems to be a lot of anti-sex stuff coming from all sorts of political dispositions at the moment. Prudity is making a comeback in a way I didn't see coming. There's always been conservatives and religious types clamping down, but who would have thought we'd have a gallery taking down a classic painting that contains nudity? https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2018/jan/31/manchester-art-gallery-removes-waterhouse-naked-nymphs-painting-prompt-conversation 

Up with sexbots!

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Just now, Zorral said:

You haven't paid any attention to the history of men's behaviors with women, particularly women that are perceived to be in a socially subordinate position, such as servants, wives, slaves, poor women, cooks, wives, nuns, children, you name it.  We are speaking of the history of men who throughout most of western history at least, never even considered such a thing as 'consent' to be anything that the female of the species possesses.  There were some rules and regs, of course, i.e., don't take the female that belongs to another man, at least if he was a man who had equal or more status, wealth and / or power than you.

Moreover you're not paying any attention to the bs constantly spewed by evangelicals, mormons, and most of the republicans who are politicians in the last 100 years, and particularly in the last 10.

 

Historically I understand that happens and that there are jackasses advocating for the subservience of women.  That doesn't mean it makes sense to me in as anything other than a way to exert control over other people which is something I really don't care for.  That what I mean when I say "I don't understand".

[Iskaral Pust]

2 hours ago, Maithanet said:

I've often thought about starting a thread about "The Effect of Internet Porn on Society".  To me the entire Incel movement wouldn't be possible without internet porn.  Immediate sexual stimulation is available for free 24/7.  And not just generic stimulation, but pornography that is tailored to every taste and every style.  There are literally tens of thousands of beautiful women (and men) performing sex acts at the click of the mouse, and they can be discarded and passed over just as easily.  

I'm not trying to create an "OMG technology is ruining society" discussion, but it is impossible for me to think that this ISN'T having a huge impact.  It gives people without sexual experience the idea that sex ought to be easy, accessible and tailored to their whim.  And sex robots are only going to make that worse, not better. 

That concept can be extended further.  It's easy to criticize porn, which does seem to have a significant negative effect from over-exposure, but the incel mentality could even derive from something as simple as TV.  As TV, movies, magazines and other visual media have come to dominate our culture, we are inundated with images of beauty/hotness that are largely unavailable or unattainable in real life.  Instagram might be the apotheosis.  Men are especially hostage to visual attractiveness, both for their own sexual attraction and for the hard-wired aspiration to social standing. 

We've long heard how this puts pressure on women, and now men, to try live up to impossible standards, but it also creates dissatisfaction with the attractiveness of the realistic potential dating pool.  Lonely, frankly unattractive, people gorging themselves on images of beautiful people will be dissatisfied with the potential partners that are available to them.  You can swipe right on Tinder but it's probably making you overlook a more realistic match.

There are so many ways in which we are hostage to unconscious biological programming.  The modern world gleefully titillates this in various ways with sugar, porn, attractive images, video games (novelty & adrenaline), social media (social acceptance) and, in the very rawest and egregious form, drugs.  It requires huge self awareness and self discipline to consciously avoid falling into traps for our biology.

[maarsen]

2 minutes ago, Iskaral Pust said:

That concept can be extended further.  It's easy to criticize porn, which does seem to have a significant negative effect from over-exposure, but the incel mentality could even derive from something as simple as TV.  As TV, movies, magazines and other visual media have come to dominate our culture, we are inundated with images of beauty/hotness that are largely unavailable or unattainable in real life.  Instagram might be the apotheosis.  Men are especially hostage to visual attractiveness, both for their own sexual attraction and for the hard-wired aspiration to social standing. 

We've long heard how this puts pressure on women, and now men, to try live up to impossible standards, but it also creates dissatisfaction with the attractiveness of the realistic potential dating pool.  Lonely, frankly unattractive, people gorging themselves on images of beautiful people will be dissatisfied with the potential partners that are available to them.  You can swipe right on Tinder but it's probably making you overlook a more realistic match.

There are so many ways in which we are hostage to unconscious biological programming.  The modern world gleefully titillates this in various ways with sugar, porn, attractive images, video games (novelty & adrenaline), social media (social acceptance) and, in the very rawest and egregious form, drugs.  It requires huge self awareness and self discipline to consciously avoid falling into traps for our biology.

I guess you have never heard of Richard Nixon's exhaustive in depth study of the  long term effects of pornography on the American people?  Well apparently Nixon did not like the conclusions the researchers came to and decided not to release the study. It was leaked and the long term effect is...boredom with porn.

[Iskaral Pust]

4 minutes ago, maarsen said:

I guess you have never heard of Richard Nixon's exhaustive in depth study of the  long term effects of pornography on the American people?  Well apparently Nixon did not like the conclusions the researchers came to and decided not to release the study. It was leaked and the long term effect is...boredom with porn.

I was thinking of more recent studies that showed over-exposure to porn left some men with limbic systems that were numb or desensitized and no longer sexually aroused by real life sexual situations.  

[DMC]

42 minutes ago, mankytoes said:

Porn isn't an advert for sex, if it's in the interests of pornographers to promote anything to you, it's more porn. They don't want you to stop watching porn and start having sex. But anyway, beer companies are more trying to get your to drink their  beer than trying to get you to drink beer generally. People drank too much beer and had sexual dysfunction (not deliberately linking the two, though of course sometimes you can) long before beer advertising and pornography came along. 

 

28 minutes ago, Iskaral Pust said:

Lonely, frankly unattractive, people gorging themselves on images of beautiful people will be dissatisfied with the potential partners that are available to them.  You can swipe right on Tinder but it's probably making you overlook a more realistic match.

I think these are the entirely wrong perspectives.  Plenty of sexually active people become porn addicts.  Many of them are even attractive.  Hell, I know in certain relationships I got bored and preferred porn, it's human nature.  Objecting to the current state of internet porn isn't about being "prude," it's about it's omnipresence, accessibility to children, and escalation of appetites.  And the beer analogy is useful:  look at DC - that city is filled with people that have developed a culture in which when you're not working, you're drinking, and oftentimes both.  The result?  It has the highest percentage of heavy drinkers in the country.

[Zorral]

51 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Historically I understand that happens and that there are jackasses advocating for the subservience of women.  That doesn't mean it makes sense to me in as anything other than a way to exert control over other people which is something I really don't care for.  That what I mean when I say "I don't understand".

And I don't understand why you're saying you don't understand, when you said that historically this has been the case.  Do you not believe the present is shaped by the past (as well as other forces too, of course)?

[mankytoes]

2 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

I think these are the entirely wrong perspectives.  Plenty of sexually active people become porn addicts.  Many of them are even attractive.  Hell, I know in certain relationships I got bored and preferred porn, it's human nature.  Objecting to the current state of internet porn isn't about being "prude," it's about it's omnipresence, accessibility to children, and escalation of appetites.  And the beer analogy is useful:  look at DC - that city is filled with people that have developed a culture in which when you're not working, you're drinking, and oftentimes both.  The result?  It has the highest percentage of heavy drinkers in the country.

Is it? I'd say it's just a sign of a dead relationship, not meaning to be judgemental. Don't get me wrong, being sexually active doesn't stop most people watching porn, but as an occasional side to actual sex, not a preference to it. To me that's like Harry Kane retiring to play FIFA all day. 

It's not just internet porn, we've got the left joining the right in attacking prostitution, nudity, now sex robots. Usually under the guise of feminism, or the phrase that is everyone's current favourite weasel words "starting a conversation". 

I'm completely lost with the analogy now. Are you saying people in DC get alcohol advertised more to them than other parts of the country? In England we're apparently in a drinking crisis. We've been called a nation of pissheads since written records began. 

[DMC]

3 minutes ago, mankytoes said:

Is it? I'd say it's just a sign of a dead relationship, not meaning to be judgemental. Don't get me wrong, being sexually active doesn't stop most people watching porn, but as an occasional side to actual sex, not a preference to it.

Well, first, that does seem to be judgmental.  I guess I should have have been more precise in saying not in certain relationships, but during certain times in relationships I get bored and prefer porn.  That, I think, is indeed human nature.

7 minutes ago, mankytoes said:

It's not just internet porn, we've got the left joining the right in attacking prostitution, nudity, now sex robots. Usually under the guise of feminism, or the phrase that is everyone's current favourite weasel words "starting a conversation". 

I haven't read everything in this thread, but you don't need to "attack" any of these things to believe that internet porn has an adverse effect on society.  I'm not sure what the solution is, just agreeing there's a problem.

9 minutes ago, mankytoes said:

I'm completely lost with the analogy now. Are you saying people in DC get alcohol advertised more to them than other parts of the country? In England we're apparently in a drinking crisis. We've been called a nation of pissheads since written records began. 

I'm saying in DC there's a culture of drinking that is ubiquitous, and much more so compared to the rest of the country, which would be akin to being exposed to a shitload of beer ads.

[mankytoes]

2 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

Well, first, that does seem to be judgmental.  I guess I should have have been more precise in saying not in certain relationships, but during certain times in relationships I get bored and prefer porn.  That, I think, is indeed human nature.

I haven't read everything in this thread, but you don't need to "attack" any of these things to believe that internet porn has an adverse effect on society.  I'm not sure what the solution is, just agreeing there's a problem.

I'm saying in DC there's a culture of drinking that is ubiquitous, and much more so compared to the rest of the country, which would be akin to being exposed to a shitload of beer ads.

I mean, would you not be a bit put out if a partner said to you they'd rather watch porn than be intimate with you? I don't think most people would happily accept that as "human nature". Maybe very occasionally, but not regularly. 

There are certainly cases where individuals have a problem with internet porn. I don't see much evidence for all the links that people make though. Do incels watch a lot of porn? A lot of people are assuming they do, but only because it suits their argument. 

So you're saying a culture of drinking leads to more drinking? I don't think anyone would disagree with that, but I don't see the wider point. Porn leads to more porn? Or more sex? Are those both bad things?

[Kalbear]

Yeah, I think the main problem is that for men in the US the only forms of intimacy that are allowed are with a sexual partner (and usually only a woman), in celebrating sports events or in other hazing rituals. Humans are wired to need intimacy, period. Sexual release is the odd association, but if that were an issue the obvious solution would be to simply make prostitution decriminalized. 

The odd thing about this to me is that the Incel movement (along with the PUA culture and the MRA culture and a number of other anti-women cultures) is almost certainly an actual solution to this lack of intimacy. This allows men to bond with other men, talk about their feelings in a non-superficial way, and create long term friendships. Those are all likely good things. Keep that, lose the misogyny. 

[DMC]

4 minutes ago, mankytoes said:

I mean, would you not be a bit put out if a partner said to you they'd rather watch porn than be intimate with you?

Yes, which is exactly why I didn't want to say it to begin with, don't want the significant other to go internet-stalking.  Anyway, I obviously don't know if it's human nature, but it's been my experience, as well as most of the people I've discussed it with (albeit that's a predominately male sample).

9 minutes ago, mankytoes said:

Do incels watch a lot of porn? A lot of people are assuming they do, but only because it suits their argument.

I think that's a fairly safe assumption.

9 minutes ago, mankytoes said:

So you're saying a culture of drinking leads to more drinking? I don't think anyone would disagree with that, but I don't see the wider point. Porn leads to more porn? Or more sex? Are those both bad things?

Yes, the point is porn leads to more porn.  And the concerning thing is the escalation of appetites, disengagement with society, and the behavior that likely results from such tendencies.  Think that's clearly been the discussion the entire time, don't know why it needs to be reiterated.

[Zorral]

4 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Yeah, I think the main problem is that for men in the US the only forms of intimacy that are allowed are with a sexual partner (and usually only a woman), in celebrating sports events or in other hazing rituals. Humans are wired to need intimacy, period. Sexual release is the odd association, but if that were an issue the obvious solution would be to simply make prostitution decriminalized. 

The odd thing about this to me is that the Incel movement (along with the PUA culture and the MRA culture and a number of other anti-women cultures) is almost certainly an actual solution to this lack of intimacy. This allows men to bond with other men, talk about their feelings in a non-superficial way, and create long term friendships. Those are all likely good things. Keep that, lose the misogyny. 

Except it is about banding together to hate women together and figure out how to hurt them, in revenge for them being so uppity.  Quite like KKK groups.

These sorts of solutions are hateful, like just about any solution that sympathetic (white males) sorts come up, like Douthat's -- they all involve women having to sacrifice something for the sake of these (white males) sorts not getting what they believe belongs to them, while they, of course DO NOTHING but whine on the internet all day about how mean others are to them. Makes them so attractive, doesn't it.

[Kalbear]

1 minute ago, Zorral said:

Except it is about banding together to hate women together and figure out how to hurt them, in revenge for them being so uppity.  Quite like KKK groups . . . .

Yes! The actual aims of the groups are a massive problem. But the underlying cause - and what these groups are actually doing for these men - doesn't go away, and understanding that is the important part of understanding why they're hard to simply say 'you suck'. Because this gives them a belonging, an identity, and you can't just erase those from people - no matter how toxic they are.