The Answer is (allegedly) Sex Robots

[Yukle]

5 hours ago, Kalbear said:

The trick is that they don't see them as human beings. They see them as less. This is a requirement, because if a person sees another person as actually human and also suffering, it hurts that person who saw them. 

In order to commit atrocity you have to dehumanize the person. 

Succinct and accurate.

To elaborate: dehumanising also creates a sickening power imbalance, usually in absolute terms. So it's not just that it's intended to make the person merely inferior, but equivalent to disposable property.

[Gorn]

8 hours ago, dmc515 said:

If you're watching porn without your partner by definition you are preferring it to your partner at that time.

Not really. There are many, many situations when you are ready, willing and available, but your partner isn't, and vice versa. Some of those from my experience include: different work shifts, tiredness / lack of sleep, medical reasons, pregnancy, menstruation, business trips, etc. Porn is the backup option in those cases.

[Theda Baratheon]

I like robots too much to wish incels and the like to be inflicted upon them.

Anyway, it wouldn't help at all. They won't just want ''sex''. They want sex with certain types of women. They hate women so they don't interact with them, so they have no idea what real women are like and build up all these insane shit in their heads about the kind of women they deserve. Incredibly attractive women, who are also virgins, and meek, and submissive and domestic and treat them like a king? Fuck. That. They're delusional. They don't want sex. They don't even just want a girlfriend. They want this imaginary person theyve built up in their heads. And they want to have power over them because they feel small and insignificant. Well, boo hoo. So does everyone, at one point or another. 

[.H.]

2 hours ago, Theda Baratheon said:

They hate women so they don't interact with them, so they have no idea what real women are like and build up all these insane shit in their heads about the kind of women they deserve.

I can't help but feel there must be non-trivial amount of narcissism mixed in there, but I am definitely not certified to really diagnose it, even if I had the time to plumb the depths of the pathology.  I doubt that exhausts the whole complex, because there is probably a great, great deal of self-hatred that is projected outward too, but again, armchair psychology here at best.

[Theda Baratheon]

24 minutes ago, .H. said:

I can't help but feel there must be non-trivial amount of narcissism mixed in there, but I am definitely not certified to really diagnose it, even if I had the time to plumb the depths of the pathology.  I doubt that exhausts the whole complex, because there is probably a great, great deal of self-hatred that is projected outward too, but again, armchair psychology here at best.

I think it's a weird mix of both narcissism and self hatred. It's a bizarre, scary cocktail. 

[.H.]

25 minutes ago, Theda Baratheon said:

I think it's a weird mix of both narcissism and self hatred. It's a bizarre, scary cocktail. 

It might well be a symptom of what happens when you feed people a shitty diet of Postmodernism, mixed with the rest of the cultural garbage that gets pushed out, but again, who knows what I am even talking about here (I doubt I even do).  I guess I am not really surprised that people who have no ideals and are disenfranchised (for one reason or another) come up with gross ways to cope with living in a society that overly sexualizes numerous things.  It's not just porn, I think that is facile to blame as a root, although I am not saying it isn't part of it.  No, I think it is deeper than that, these are very poorly socialized people who are trying to cope living in a world where they simply have no ability to interact with other humans in a positive and productive manner, but still crave interaction none-the-less.  Of course it is frustrating to them and they lack the introspective ability to be able to understand why everything goes so wrong.

I think that makes some sense but maybe I just don't have any idea what I'm talking about from my armchair here.  I lived through a good number of frustrating years like that, but maybe that kind of anecdote only confuses my understanding more.

[mankytoes]

16 hours ago, dmc515 said:

If you're watching porn without your partner by definition you are preferring it to your partner at that time.

Dude, consent. Sometimes I want to have sex with my partner, but she doesn't want to have sex with me. So there's a handy alternative. Being in a relationship doesn't mean being up for it 24/7 at your partner's whim. 

[Kalbear]

Yes, it is true that you're preferring to watch porn instead of doing stuff with your partner. What is being left out is that sometimes the 'doing stuff with your partner' would effectively be hugely coercive sex and/or actual rape depending on their condition. 

Also, honestly? Some times you don't want to please someone else and you want to be selfish. At that point it's not preferring porn over your partner, it's preferring your desires over your partner's. 

[Erik of Hazelfield]

While discussing in the feminist thread I looked a bit at some incel forums. To me it seems like they claim to want intimacy and not just sex, but they believe that because they lost out at the genetic lottery they simply aren’t - and never will be - attractive enough to get a woman. The theory is that only the alpha males or “Chads” get the best looking girls, then the “normies” might be able to hook up with girls in the range of 1-6 or so on an attractiveness scale of 10, while the incels get nothing at all. Maybe a “land whale” if they’re lucky. 

I saw one guy posting pictures of himself and complained that he could never get laid and was working hard to save money for surgery - but he looked completely normal to me. The community responded that this was “suicide fuel” - if a guy like him was an incel, how could they ever hope to find a girl? Their whole idea is that social skills don’t exist, that everything is just about looks, and that while you can certainly be bad at social skills and “underperform”, you can never reach girls above your attractiveness level by use of social skills. 

Needless to say I had to get out of there before my head exploded, but to me inceldom seems to be some kind of super simplified, even childish, psychological pseudo science that resonates with men who have trouble with women. It’s a mix of social Darwinism, nihilism and of course massive amounts of misogyny. Like most pseudo sciences it could be easily disproven if only its followers had listened to logic.

[mankytoes]

38 minutes ago, Erik of Hazelfield said:

While discussing in the feminist thread I looked a bit at some incel forums. To me it seems like they claim to want intimacy and not just sex, but they believe that because they lost out at the genetic lottery they simply aren’t - and never will be - attractive enough to get a woman. The theory is that only the alpha males or “Chads” get the best looking girls, then the “normies” might be able to hook up with girls in the range of 1-6 or so on an attractiveness scale of 10, while the incels get nothing at all. Maybe a “land whale” if they’re lucky. 

I saw one guy posting pictures of himself and complained that he could never get laid and was working hard to save money for surgery - but he looked completely normal to me. The community responded that this was “suicide fuel” - if a guy like him was an incel, how could they ever hope to find a girl? Their whole idea is that social skills don’t exist, that everything is just about looks, and that while you can certainly be bad at social skills and “underperform”, you can never reach girls above your attractiveness level by use of social skills. 

Needless to say I had to get out of there before my head exploded, but to me inceldom seems to be some kind of super simplified, even childish, psychological pseudo science that resonates with men who have trouble with women. It’s a mix of social Darwinism, nihilism and of course massive amounts of misogyny. Like most pseudo sciences it could be easily disproven if only its followers had listened to logic.

People of all types always tend to be attracted to the narrative that tells them that their failures are not their fault, and that there is no way they could do better. I won't list examples because it will derail the thread, but you can probably think of them from pretty much any type of group you can think of. Victim mentality will never go away. 

[Yukle]

10 hours ago, Theda Baratheon said:

I like robots too much to wish incels and the like to be inflicted upon them.

Anyway, it wouldn't help at all. They won't just want ''sex''. They want sex with certain types of women. They hate women so they don't interact with them, so they have no idea what real women are like and build up all these insane shit in their heads about the kind of women they deserve. Incredibly attractive women, who are also virgins, and meek, and submissive and domestic and treat them like a king? Fuck. That. They're delusional. They don't want sex. They don't even just want a girlfriend. They want this imaginary person theyve built up in their heads. And they want to have power over them because they feel small and insignificant. Well, boo hoo. So does everyone, at one point or another. 

I think this is a correct assessment of what such people are doing.

The ideal woman they've constructed in their heads is not a person at all, but a slave to their whims. They're not seeking companionship or intimacy, but power and control.

Being rejected in a relationship is what is triggering their aggression and sickening worldview: it's not that women weren't showing intimacy, but that they had the audacity to act independently. For them romance isn't a matter of sharing, but of compliance and domination.

They're treating women as characters in the Sims. They want to tell women to go to one place and perform a task, and after a bit of fussing about in a way that simulates independence, they comply. They want to follow a formula of giving a certain blend of compliments, gifts, flattering glances and so on and then the woman will have her mindset altered from the default "interested in men generally" to "interested in that man specifically."

In this respect, they will never be satisfied because no such person exists. But it's almost as if they believe that the system of power and control of men over women in all relationships is the default but it's that they've been deliberately overlooked in an otherwise normal process.

I have no sympathy for their worldview, and shudder to think of who they would have been in past years. They are this generation's defenders of slavery; hundreds of years ago men such as these would have have protested the way that some men are just born lucky enough to have lots of black people doing their whim and despite how clever and smart other white men are, just because they're not born into the right families, they're stuck with no slaves at all.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Once upon a time, the term incel (as in someone who was involuntarily celibate) actually had no unsavoury meaning. Insofar as there were forums, etc, devoted to it, it was primarily about being a support network for depressed, lonely people of whatever gender or sexuality. You know, to reassure people that they weren't alone. This meant a fair few "pity parties", where posting miserable things was the entire point of the exercise, but there was no actual misogyny (why would there be? Incel women existed).

The toxic stuff came later, and, well, it has long since drowned out any positive features the original concept had.

[mankytoes]

3 minutes ago, Roose Boltons Pet Leech said:

Once upon a time, the term incel (as in someone who was involuntarily celibate) actually had no unsavoury meaning. Insofar as there were forums, etc, devoted to it, it was primarily about being a support network for depressed, lonely people of whatever gender or sexuality. You know, to reassure people that they weren't alone. This meant a fair few "pity parties", where posting miserable things was the entire point of the exercise, but there was no actual misogyny (why would there be? Incel women existed).

The toxic stuff came later, and, well, it has long since drowned out any positive features the original concept had.

The idea of the antisocial sexless person is certainly not a new one. In fact, perhaps the female version, the bitter spinster, is traditionally more prominent. But you always have the angry guy who lashes out at the world because he was rejected by women, often because he's seen as ugly or deformed. 

This is an extreme version, but I don't think there's anything new about the idea of involuntarily celibate people being weird, resentful and antisocial.

[The Marquis de Leech]

6 minutes ago, mankytoes said:

The idea of the antisocial sexless person is certainly not a new one. In fact, perhaps the female version, the bitter spinster, is traditionally more prominent. But you always have the angry guy who lashes out at the world because he was rejected by women, often because he's seen as ugly or deformed. 

This is an extreme version, but I don't think there's anything new about the idea of involuntarily celibate people being weird, resentful and antisocial.

I'd argue that the traditional view of involuntary celibate people wasn't about them lashing out - if they were thought of at all, it was as figures of fun (The Forty Year Old Virgin), or just sad people worthy of pity. Generally they were simply ignored altogether (hence the idea of online support networks). There were even attempts at serious academic study of the phenomenon - there's the famous Donnelly paper from 2001. I don't think any academic researcher would touch the current incel movement in that sort of way.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Here's a youtube interview with the woman (yes, woman) who invented the initial incel support movement twenty years ago:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4okTu7NQq0

She notes how different the early incel community was from the current one.

[Zorral]

Throughout discussions of these incels it is noted that the male incels at least, just forget that women are PEOPLE.  Those screen shots with the demand that WOMEN be redistributed, and comparing them to ignoring hotdogs lying on the ground -- HOW IN THE WORLD CAN ANYONE HOLD THAT OPINION AND WONDER WHY WOMEN IGNORE HIM?

[HoodedCrow]

Ah, for the good old days, when these men would be married to a young girl without resources to be independent, and could abuse them with religious support. Perhaps a religious cult would make their dreams come true.