HBO's Westworld VII: Abort?.Retry.Fail

[Arch-MaesterPhilip]

My favorite piece of music was "The Entertainer" on episode 1 when Dolores was riding down guests in the park.

[dbunting]

Writing this a few days after watching the show so I may have a few things off a little.

Loved the scenery and the Ghost Tribe.

So how was Ake off on his own exploring for 10 years with no one wondering why or giving him an upgrade or something? Do they have no "expiration" date? I can buy off on this if Ford wanted Ake to explore and told everyone that was his loop.

Funny how Ake was wondering around in the lab like no big deal and approached the escalator like it was another day at the mall.

As most I do not understand what Arnold was doing when he had them all kill themselves and Delores AKA Deathbringer kill him. I assumed that he was having all the hosts killed but now we see it wasn't.

Ake was talking to Maeve the while time, the tech even said so. They mentioned it when showing her the code and she was saying something like what is she doing now? Ake said to her if you live find me, if not find a good death?

I did like the episode and of course Heart shaped box but once again, feels like we aren't moving forward. It's like we are taking 3 steps back to show us more of the whys...

[Cas Stark]

We aren't moving forward.  There have been a lot of beautiful and interesting segments, and the show has given us a lot of information on the technology of how the park works....mesh network, cradle, Delos master plan, the 'weapon'...and some stuff has happened, like Anthony Hopkins is the ghost in the machine.  But, overall, the plot is in the same place as it was at the end of last year.  Some hosts are awake, some aren't.  Deathbringer is bringing death.  Maeve is on a quest.  William is a POS. Most of the humans are awful and uninteresting.  Park security is still a mess. Bernarnold is confused.  Djawadi is still killing it on music selection.

I expect that things will ramp up to some sort of thrilling conclusion, but season 3 needs to be more coherent and probably approachable if they're going to increase the audience and get years 4 and 5 out of HBO.

[HexMachina]

3 hours ago, red snow said:

I need to rewatch this episode as was dozing off towards the end. It led to a false assumption that the final scene was telling us that maeve was somehow Ake's wife which I thought would have been a neat ending. I guess code can be transferred between hosts but I'm not sure if the timelines fit which is particularly tricky with this show. It would partly explain Maeve's awakening as she had awakened during her time with Ake.

Anyway need to rewatch as no good having dream storylines adding to the confusion of this show

No, that’s not how it went. Ake finds his wife, she is decommissioned. Maeve being Akes wife wouldn’t fit at all imo

[Fragile Bird]

For a brief moment I wondered if Ake’s wife’s memories got transferred to Maeve, and then I realized, no, Maeve has great emotional range. She has empathy with Ake, and spoke to him with deep feeling using the phrase she had just heard in his story.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

We aren't moving forward.  There have been a lot of beautiful and interesting segments, and the show has given us a lot of information on the technology of how the park works....mesh network, cradle, Delos master plan, the 'weapon'...and some stuff has happened, like Anthony Hopkins is the ghost in the machine.  But, overall, the plot is in the same place as it was at the end of last year.  Some hosts are awake, some aren't.  Deathbringer is bringing death.  Maeve is on a quest.  William is a POS. Most of the humans are awful and uninteresting.  Park security is still a mess. Bernarnold is confused.  Djawadi is still killing it on music selection.

I expect that things will ramp up to some sort of thrilling conclusion, but season 3 needs to be more coherent and probably approachable if they're going to increase the audience and get years 4 and 5 out of HBO.

I’m not sure we’re supposed to. This season, at least the current timeline, takes place over a short amount of time, so it’s more about understanding the park and the past than moving the plot forward. That said, I do agree that things will start ramping up soon. I’ve been critical of this season, but maybe that’s unfair due to not knowing the whole story. Season one was like that too. Fun start, lull in the middle and then BOOM! I won’t be shocked if this season is the same.

44 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

For a brief moment I wondered if Ake’s wife’s memories got transferred to Maeve, and then I realized, no, Maeve has great emotional range. She has empathy with Ake, and spoke to him with deep feeling using the phrase she had just heard in his story.

Can’t she access the other hosts’ memories?  

[Fragile Bird]

16 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Can’t she access the other hosts’ memories?  

There's no evidence of that. She can instruct them to do things.

God only knows, though, if that will develop. We got a fuller explanation of how hosts exchange information, and maybe some time soon she'll be able to look at a host and read their memories. I kinda liken it to a human's ability to look at a person and sum them up (as Trump says he can, within a minute :p ) but with more accuracy, since what humans do is based on knowledge and experience and visual cues, not mind reading.

[DMC]

20 hours ago, Kyoshi said:

The guy in season 1 got noticed because he was the only one of his group to carry a weapon. The Woodcutter, I think they called him. So when he went off, roughly six other hosts got stuck in a non-standard loop because none of them could cut wood for the fire to make food. And so they didn't reach some place they were meant to go to, irrc. So the woodcutter got noticed because his trailing off visibly altered a storyline.

Exactly.  We plainly see Ake is the leader of at least a small group that's narrative entails killing a group of soldiers.  Surely his absence would complicate that group's narrative.  While perhaps not as debilitating as the woodcutter's absence, presumably the staff would have to reassign a new leader of the group to give orders.  Instead Ake pretty much literally says he simply returned to his loop after his decade-long excursion.  That doesn't make sense (nor does QA finding his wife way out there wandering but not realizing he was in the same vicinity as well).

There's the handwaving aspects of Ford or increased security that have been mentioned, sure.  Another one I read while browsing reviews online is that it's some kind of meta-commentary.  The Ghost Nation is out on the outskirts, and just as Native Americans are marginalized, ostracized, and largely ignored in the real world, the staff pays much less attention to the Ghost Nation compared to the white hosts.  I find this to be pretty stupid, but thought I'd share.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

22 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

There's no evidence of that. She can instruct them to do things.

God only knows, though, if that will develop. We got a fuller explanation of how hosts exchange information, and maybe some time soon she'll be able to look at a host and read their memories. I kinda liken it to a human's ability to look at a person and sum them up (as Trump says he can, within a minute :p ) but with more accuracy, since what humans do is based on knowledge and experience and visual cues, not mind reading.

She can also communicate with them telepathically, which means if she’s thought about it, she can just tell them to access their memories and relay them to her. At least I think so. But who knows with this damn show.  

[Cas Stark]

41 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

I’m not sure we’re supposed to. This season, at least the current timeline, takes place over a short amount of time, so it’s more about understanding the park and the past than moving the plot forward. That said, I do agree that things will start ramping up soon. I’ve been critical of this season, but maybe that’s unfair due to not knowing the whole story. Season one was like that too. Fun start, lull in the middle and then BOOM! I won’t be shocked if this season is the same.

Can’t she access the other hosts’ memories?  

It's not unfair and the audience numbers show it.  I assume most everyone who posts on this site has a pretty high tolerance for high brow sci-fi, so if "we" collectively are critical of the season, then it's no wonder the audience numbers are bad. I love Westworld, but this season, despite its beautiful segments, is quite flawed.  They have made it confusing for the sake of confusion, not to drive any kind of story arc, as they had done last year. I would love to see WW last 4 or 5 years, but I suspect if it doesn't end on a high note audience wise, and bring in some more audience next year, it might not go beyond 3 seasons. 

 

[Theda Baratheon]

Last episode was just masterful. 

[Theda Baratheon]

15 minutes ago, DMBouazizi said:

Exactly.  We plainly see Ake is the leader of at least a small group that's narrative entails killing a group of soldiers.  Surely his absence would complicate that group's narrative.  While perhaps not as debilitating as the woodcutter's absence, presumably the staff would have to reassign a new leader of the group to give orders.  Instead Ake pretty much literally says he simply returned to his loop after his decade-long excursion.  That doesn't make sense (nor does QA finding his wife way out there wandering but not realizing he was in the same vicinity as well).

There's the handwaving aspects of Ford or increased security that have been mentioned, sure.  Another one I read while browsing reviews online is that it's some kind of meta-commentary.  The Ghost Nation is out on the outskirts, and just as Native Americans are marginalized, ostracized, and largely ignored in the real world, the staff pays much less attention to the Ghost Nation compared to the white hosts.  I find this to be pretty stupid, but thought I'd share.

And why do you find that stupid? I actually think it’s a very good point. You don’t think racism has any part in writing narratives and host personalities? I don’t know...I think there’s credit to that point. I really do. I’m curious as to why you think it’s stupid though. 

[Cas Stark]

4 minutes ago, Theda Baratheon said:

And why do you find that stupid? I actually think it’s a very good point. You don’t think racism has any part in writing narratives and host personalities? I don’t know...I think there’s credit to that point. I really do. I’m curious as to why you think it’s stupid though. 

It's somewhat stupid because Delos is engaged in a super secret high tech program to harvest data in order to create virtual immortality for humans, so no piece of data should go un analyzed.  Delos already looks like one of the most sloppy, careless corporations on the planet...which doesn't really jive with their several missions.  

It's clear that Ghost Nation was thinly written, okay, and they played a stereotypical role in the park, okay.  But, them having incorporated the techs into their religion should not have gone unnoticed by Delos, nor should a host be able to basically be rogue for 10 years.  It is not consistent with what else we have seen of the park management unless we hand wave it and say that Ford was screening it out somehow.

[DMC]

7 minutes ago, Theda Baratheon said:

And why do you find that stupid? I actually think it’s a very good point. You don’t think racism has any part in writing narratives and host personalities? I don’t know...I think there’s credit to that point. I really do. I’m curious as to why you think it’s stupid though. 

I don't find the point being made stupid, but rather it as an explanation for such a plot hole.  As Cas said, it does not follow that Delos (and especially Ford) would be that careless/allow his staff to be so incompetent.  Further, like I said, it still doesn't make sense in how the show has established a single host's malfunctioning will alter narratives in a way the writer's will have to rectify - especially a host that appears to be giving directions to others within his narrative.  Remember in season 1 when Theresa wants to decommission all the hosts showing reveries and Sizemore pitching a fit about how much work that'd cause him?

24 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

She can also communicate with them telepathically, which means if she’s thought about it, she can just tell them to access their memories and relay them to her. At least I think so. But who knows with this damn show.

My impression is this is pretty much true - in particular she appears to do this with her Shogun world counterpart (Akane) when she offers to "wake" her (and Akane refuses).  However, in relation to Ake's wife, the point is rather moot as she's been decommissioned far before Maeve gains such abilities.

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

I'm not that familiar with Native American folk tales or mythology, but there was definitely something very "Greek Tragedy" about Akecheta's story.  He sacrifices himself to journey into Hades to rescue the woman he loves only to find her soul has been destroyed.  Fuck me that's heavy.

[Theda Baratheon]

29 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

It's somewhat stupid because Delos is engaged in a super secret high tech program to harvest data in order to create virtual immortality for humans, so no piece of data should go un analyzed.  Delos already looks like one of the most sloppy, careless corporations on the planet...which doesn't really jive with their several missions.  

It's clear that Ghost Nation was thinly written, okay, and they played a stereotypical role in the park, okay.  But, them having incorporated the techs into their religion should not have gone unnoticed by Delos, nor should a host be able to basically be rogue for 10 years.  It is not consistent with what else we have seen of the park management unless we hand wave it and say that Ford was screening it out somehow.

It obviously wasn’t a regular thing; from the looks of the staff faces it was basically unheard of to have had a host not die in that time. I think the fact he was self aware to an extent greatly helped him in that. People make mistakes and Delos is just made up of people. 

It didn’t take me out of it at all - I absolutely LOVED the episode. 

[Theda Baratheon]

2 minutes ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

I'm not that familiar with Native American folk tales or mythology, but there was definitely something very "Greek Tragedy" about Akecheta's story.  He sacrifices himself to journey into Hades to rescue the woman he loves only to find her soul has been destroyed.  Fuck me that's heavy.

I absolutely loved it! Brilliant episode. Fantastic character. 

22 minutes ago, DMBouazizi said:

I don't find the point being made stupid, but rather it as an explanation for such a plot hole.  As Cas said, it does not follow that Delos (and especially Ford) would be that careless/allow his staff to be so incompetent.  Further, like I said, it still doesn't make sense in how the show has established a single host's malfunctioning will alter narratives in a way the writer's will have to rectify - especially a host that appears to be giving directions to others within his narrative.  Remember in season 1 when Theresa wants to decommission all the hosts showing reveries and Sizemore pitching a fit about how much work that'd cause him?

My impression is this is pretty much true - in particular she appears to do this with her Shogun world counterpart (Akane) when she offers to "wake" her (and Akane refuses).  However, in relation to Ake's wife, the point is rather moot as she's been decommissioned far before Maeve gains such abilities.

I find looking for plot holes all the time tiresome and will accept a reasonable explanation and to me, him being on the fringe and an outsider and as such largely ignored (as the ghost nation certainly were in season 1) makes sense. They’re like bogeymen - they don’t seem like real people. So this episode was very welcome. 

[DMC]

1 minute ago, Theda Baratheon said:

I find looking for plot holes all the time tiresome and will accept a reasonable explanation and to me, him being on the fringe and an outsider and as such largely ignored (as the ghost nation certainly were in season 1) makes sense. They’re like bogeymen - they don’t seem like real people. So this episode was very welcome.

Sure it's not like I'm gonna stop watching the show.  But by the same token I'm really into the show so I didn't have to "look" for the plot hole at all - it immediately crippled my suspension of disbelief and temporarily took me out of what was indeed a pretty good bottle episode (particularly the actor who played Ake's performance).

[Theda Baratheon]

Personally, it didn't take me out of it at all. 

[Kyoshi]

2 hours ago, DMBouazizi said:

Exactly.  We plainly see Ake is the leader of at least a small group that's narrative entails killing a group of soldiers.  Surely his absence would complicate that group's narrative.  While perhaps not as debilitating as the woodcutter's absence, presumably the staff would have to reassign a new leader of the group to give orders.  Instead Ake pretty much literally says he simply returned to his loop after his decade-long excursion.  That doesn't make sense (nor does QA finding his wife way out there wandering but not realizing he was in the same vicinity as well).

There's the handwaving aspects of Ford or increased security that have been mentioned, sure.  Another one I read while browsing reviews online is that it's some kind of meta-commentary.  The Ghost Nation is out on the outskirts, and just as Native Americans are marginalized, ostracized, and largely ignored in the real world, the staff pays much less attention to the Ghost Nation compared to the white hosts.  I find this to be pretty stupid, but thought I'd share.

Not necessarily. Ghost Nation is a weird anomaly. Like I said, one reason the Woodcutter was noticed was because he was the only one of his group allowed a weapon (that wasn't a gun). And I'm guessing it's because axes and knives don't have the same rules as guns, because we've seen that hosts couldn't kill guests because that function wasn't enabled. Or something like that. This is since QA took over, which I'm guessing is more recent than Ake's awakening. But throughout season 1, even with QA in charge, Ghost Nation is roaming around freely with weapons. And there seems to be an unspoken rule that no one f***s with them. Even Maeve couldn't control them. So if there's a plot hole, it maybe starts there. I'm also of the mind that Ghost Nation was largely ignored because they're Native. In fact, that was the first thing I thought. And maybe I'm wrong. But it honestly makes sense to me.