HBO's Westworld VII: Abort?.Retry.Fail

[Cas Stark]

35 minutes ago, DMBouazizi said:

Sure it's not like I'm gonna stop watching the show.  But by the same token I'm really into the show so I didn't have to "look" for the plot hole at all - it immediately crippled my suspension of disbelief and temporarily took me out of what was indeed a pretty good bottle episode (particularly the actor who played Ake's performance).

I agree.  It was a great episode, but it WAS full of plot holes, a couple of the issues, I wouldn't have really even noticed, but there was a ton of dodgy things that happened that didn't really match with what we have seen before or make sense in the scheme of things. Especially Arnold's suicide and killing the hosts in the hope that without him, the whole thing would be stopped, and yet he forgot about Ghost Nation when he easily could have simply summed them for an attack on the town and had the deathbringer kill them too.  Sloppy.  

[RumHam]

12 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I agree.  It was a great episode, but it WAS full of plot holes, a couple of the issues, I wouldn't have really even noticed, but there was a ton of dodgy things that happened that didn't really match with what we have seen before or make sense in the scheme of things. Especially Arnold's suicide and killing the hosts in the hope that without him, the whole thing would be stopped, and yet he forgot about Ghost Nation when he easily could have simply summed them for an attack on the town and had the deathbringer kill them too.  Sloppy.  

I really don't think Arnold's suicide plan included killing all the hosts to prevent the park from opening. He knew what the park was going to be and hated the idea. He knew they were going to be routinely shot to death and repaired and put back into service. It makes no sense that Arnold would expect shooting them to kill them permanently. 

I think his plan was just to have Dolores kill him, thinking that a host having killed a human would be enough to close the park. As I said before he probably had Dolores and Teddy kill the other hosts so they wouldn't intervene, and maybe also to be dramatic. 

[DMC]

10 minutes ago, Kyoshi said:

Not necessarily. Ghost Nation is a weird anomaly. Like I said, one reason the Woodcutter was noticed was because he was the only one of his group allowed a weapon (that wasn't a gun). And I'm guessing it's because axes and knives don't have the same rules as guns, because we've seen that hosts couldn't kill guests because that function wasn't enabled. Or something like that. This is since QA took over, which I'm guessing is more recent than Ake's awakening. But throughout season 1, even with QA I'm charge, Ghost Nation is roaming around freely with weapons. And there seems to be an unspoken rule that no one f***s with them. Even Maeve couldn't control them.

I'm still wondering about an explanation for how any stabbing weapon works.  The different velocities make sense for guns, but that doesn't really work for knives, etc.  But anyway, the notion there was no QA - or some entity with a similar purpose - in the early days of the park once again would suggest a level of incompetence that is incompatible with what has been established between the Delos corp. and Ford.  I'm not clear what the GN roaming around freely with weapons has to do with the discussion.  As for Maeve not controlling them, it looked like she almost controlled the first one until the other member showed up.  Perhaps one (or more) of the latter members was someone Ake had "woke," as we see Maeve can't control Lawrence, who is apparently woke.

[unJon]

1 hour ago, DMBouazizi said:

Exactly.  We plainly see Ake is the leader of at least a small group that's narrative entails killing a group of soldiers.  Surely his absence would complicate that group's narrative.  While perhaps not as debilitating as the woodcutter's absence, presumably the staff would have to reassign a new leader of the group to give orders.  Instead Ake pretty much literally says he simply returned to his loop after his decade-long excursion.  That doesn't make sense (nor does QA finding his wife way out there wandering but not realizing he was in the same vicinity as well).

There's the handwaving aspects of Ford or increased security that have been mentioned, sure.  Another one I read while browsing reviews online is that it's some kind of meta-commentary.  The Ghost Nation is out on the outskirts, and just as Native Americans are marginalized, ostracized, and largely ignored in the real world, the staff pays much less attention to the Ghost Nation compared to the white hosts.  I find this to be pretty stupid, but thought I'd share.

It wasn’t his wife in the current loop. There was no connection between Ake and her in his ghost nation loop. He kidnapped her while rogue and no reason to think QA would connect the two of them. 

[DMC]

5 minutes ago, unJon said:

It wasn’t his wife in the current loop. There was no connection between Ake and her in his ghost nation loop. He kidnapped her while rogue and no reason to think QA would connect the two of them. 

Right, the point is if QA found her wandering around so far out of her loop, they'd presumably check to see if any other hosts were around (which we know they can identify on their super-ipads, so it's not like that'd be that hard).

[Theda Baratheon]

27 minutes ago, Kyoshi said:

Not necessarily. Ghost Nation is a weird anomaly. Like I said, one reason the Woodcutter was noticed was because he was the only one of his group allowed a weapon (that wasn't a gun). And I'm guessing it's because axes and knives don't have the same rules as guns, because we've seen that hosts couldn't kill guests because that function wasn't enabled. Or something like that. This is since QA took over, which I'm guessing is more recent than Ake's awakening. But throughout season 1, even with QA I'm charge, Ghost Nation is roaming around freely with weapons. And there seems to be an unspoken rule that no one f***s with them. Even Maeve couldn't control them. So if there's a plot hole, it maybe starts there. I'm also of the mind that Ghost Nation was largely ignored because they're Native. In fact, that was the first thing I thought. And maybe I'm wrong. But it honestly makes sense to me.

I agree with you completely! Totally makes sense to me as well. 

[williamjm]

1 hour ago, Theda Baratheon said:

It obviously wasn’t a regular thing; from the looks of the staff faces it was basically unheard of to have had a host not die in that time. I think the fact he was self aware to an extent greatly helped him in that. People make mistakes and Delos is just made up of people.

It's also possible Delos don't really care that much. There are probably thousands of hosts in Westworld so whether or not one is off doing their own thing doesn't really make much difference to their monitoring project. They seem fairly blasé about decommissioning hosts so it doesn't seem they really care that much about individual hosts as long as they're not interfering with the smooth operation of the park.

[Cas Stark]

18 minutes ago, unJon said:

It wasn’t his wife in the current loop. There was no connection between Ake and her in his ghost nation loop. He kidnapped her while rogue and no reason to think QA would connect the two of them. 

The hosts record everything, so there would be a record of their encounter, which if it was enough to decommission her, should have at least caused him to be brought in for a check. 

[Kyoshi]

33 minutes ago, DMBouazizi said:

I'm still wondering about an explanation for how any stabbing weapon works.  The different velocities make sense for guns, but that doesn't really work for knives, etc.  But anyway, the notion there was no QA - or some entity with a similar purpose - in the early days of the park once again would suggest a level of incompetence that is incompatible with what has been established between the Delos corp. and Ford.  I'm not clear what the GN roaming around freely with weapons has to do with the discussion.  As for Maeve not controlling them, it looked like she almost controlled the first one until the other member showed up.  Perhaps one (or more) of the latter members was someone Ake had "woke," as we see Maeve can't control Lawrence, who is apparently woke.

GN having weapons in season 1 speaks to how the rules don't apply to them for some weird reason. Ake going off wouldn't necessarily alert anyone since the remaining Ghost Nation hosts would continue on with their programmed slaughter. And like someone else said, it was pre-reverie programming that Ake deviated. And I personally expect all kinds of incompetence for something this huge. So early-days incompetence makes more sense to me than complete competence. I mean, we have some of the "butchers" essentially pimping hosts without anyone "important" caring. Even Elsie uses it to her advantage at some point. I'm actually more shocked that the park has managed to keep the tech this contained for so long. Screw ups make sense to me. But maybe I just have low standards.

[DMC]

3 minutes ago, Kyoshi said:

GN having weapons in season 1 speaks to how the rules don't apply to them for some weird reason. Ake going off wouldn't necessarily alert anyone since the remaining Ghost Nation hosts would continue on with their programmed slaughter. And like someone else said, it was pre-reverie programming that Ake deviated.

I'm not sure the GN having weapons suggests any type of rule doesn't apply to them, just that they're programmed to have knifes etc. while the remainder of the woodcutter's group was not.  And again, I don't see how Ake going off wouldn't screw up the narratives of the hosts he was interacting with (and apparently leading).  Anyway, we're going in circles at the point.

6 minutes ago, Kyoshi said:

I mean, we have some of the "butchers" essentially pimping hosts without anyone "important" caring. Even Elsie uses it to her advantage at some point.

?  Out of curiosity, what is this referring to?

[Theda Baratheon]

56 minutes ago, williamjm said:

It's also possible Delos don't really care that much. There are probably thousands of hosts in Westworld so whether or not one is off doing their own thing doesn't really make much difference to their monitoring project. They seem fairly blasé about decommissioning hosts so it doesn't seem they really care that much about individual hosts as long as they're not interfering with the smooth operation of the park.

That’s how I saw it as well. 

[Theda Baratheon]

27 minutes ago, DMBouazizi said:

I'm not sure the GN having weapons suggests any type of rule doesn't apply to them, just that they're programmed to have knifes etc. while the remainder of the woodcutter's group was not.  And again, I don't see how Ake going off wouldn't screw up the narratives of the hosts he was interacting with (and apparently leading).  Anyway, we're going in circles at the point.

?  Out of curiosity, what is this referring to?

What some of the Delos workers do on the side. Pimping out the hosts. Elsie even blackmails that dude who has sex with the hosts.

[Slurktan]

38 minutes ago, Kyoshi said:

GN having weapons in season 1 speaks to how the rules don't apply to them for some weird reason. Ake going off wouldn't necessarily alert anyone since the remaining Ghost Nation hosts would continue on with their programmed slaughter. And like someone else said, it was pre-reverie programming that Ake deviated. And I personally expect all kinds of incompetence for something this huge. So early-days incompetence makes more sense to me than complete competence. I mean, we have some of the "butchers" essentially pimping hosts without anyone "important" caring. Even Elsie uses it to her advantage at some point. I'm actually more shocked that the park has managed to keep the tech this contained for so long. Screw ups make sense to me. But maybe I just have low standards.

Its pretty obvious from that last episode how knives and such work (in Westworld) up until the uprising the hosts don't use knives and such on guests period.  You can see a few times in that episode where Ake is scalping and doing his thing with the Ghost nation boys that there are guests in the background watching and laughing.  They probably just ignore them.

[DMC]

6 minutes ago, Theda Baratheon said:

What some of the Delos workers do on the side. Pimping out the hosts. Elsie even blackmails that dude who has sex with the hosts.

Oh, right.  Duh.  For some reason I was trying to think of other hosts that would be described as "butchers."  Thanks.

1 minute ago, Slurktan said:

Its pretty obvious from that last episode how knives and such work (in Westworld) up until the uprising the hosts don't use knives and such on guests period.

But how would that work in Shogun world.? Seems to drastically limit the appeal of the park.

[Leofric]

46 minutes ago, DMBouazizi said:

Oh, right.  Duh.  For some reason I was trying to think of other hosts that would be described as "butchers."  Thanks.

But how would that work in Shogun world.? Seems to drastically limit the appeal of the park.

The way it would work is a host samurai would cut through his other host foes lopping of limbs and heads being a total badass until he finally reaches a guest, then when he swings he does everything he can to make the guest look good.  He swings and hits the guest's weapon to make the guest think he blocked the attack, or he swings and misses to make the guest think he dodged, or the host samurai may slip in some blood or get his weapon tangled up somehow, anything to leave the guest an opening so he can win the fight.  The host may have to work hard and make several attacks fail in order to get the guest to actually see the advantage and strike.     Basically a lot of programmed weapon choreography to make the guests think they are in danger, when they never really are, but ultimately allow them to win any fight.   The host finally gets cut down and guests don't even get a scratch.

[DMC]

2 minutes ago, Leofric said:

The way it would work is a host samurai would cut through his other host foes lopping of limbs and heads being a total badass until he finally reaches a guest, then when he swings he does everything he can to make the guest look good.  He swings and hits the guest's weapon to make the guest think he blocked the attack, or he swings and misses to make the guest think he dodged, or the host samurai may slip in some blood or get his weapon tangled up somehow, anything to leave the guest an opening so he can win the fight.  The host may have to work hard and make several attacks fail in order to get the guest to actually see the advantage and strike.     Basically a lot of programmed weapon choreography to make the guests think they are in danger, when they never really are, but ultimately allow them to win any fight.   The host finally gets cut down and guests don't even get a scratch.

This is as good an explanation as any, but damn does that sound tough to program.

[Leofric]

1 minute ago, DMBouazizi said:

This is as good an explanation as any, but damn does that sound tough to program.

At the core of the program is the command that  Ake actually spelled it out in the last episode, he said the newcomers (the guests) are the ones they are not allowed to hurt (or did he say kill , can't remember exactly).   So the hosts can do everything else,  attack the guests and scare them, but can't injure them.

[DMC]

9 minutes ago, Leofric said:

At the core of the program is the command that  Ake actually spelled it out in the last episode, he said the newcomers (the guests) are the ones they are not allowed to hurt (or did he say kill , can't remember exactly).   So the hosts can do everything else,  attack the guests and scare them, but can't injure them.

Yeah I meant more the choreography of what you outlined.  I could see a host being designed to intentionally allow a guest to parry or swing and miss, but what if the guest makes an unexpected move?  Seems tough to see how that'd work in reality.

[Fragile Bird]

I understood that Shogun World was, in fact, more dangerous than Westworld. Perhaps guests could get cut with swords, though not killed, worse than they could be stung by bullets.

[Leofric]

13 minutes ago, DMBouazizi said:

Yeah I meant more the choreography of what you outlined.  I could see a host being designed to intentionally allow a guest to parry or swing and miss, but what if the guest makes an unexpected move?  Seems tough to see how that'd work in reality.

Well the hosts seem to have complete control of their motor functions, Ford can make them freeze in midmotion with a gesture, so there may be an override when a guest is truly in danger that would allow them to do react faster than normal to prevent injury, though I'm sure some accidents may still occur.