TTTNE 473: An Obsession of Joshes

[Jen'ari]

19 hours ago, Vin said:

I too have not truly been following them closely but what I did see did hint at a lack of conviction. It is normal, it's difficult to to maintain zeal for 8+ years. If you ask me they should be working extra hard because this is probably what they'll be known for for the rest of their careers. 

Well I'll repeat my father's advice: no drugs, and carry a gun in dark alleys. 

That would indeed be better however my work does not allow for regularly scheduled classes and there's also the fact that it's kinda hard to find official classes for a kinda dead language lol  (I think only 1% of Scottish people speak it) 

 

This reminds me of how I feel whenever I buy new shaving blades. One day I'll have enough and get a straight razor I swear. 

Congrats. I hope you enjoy it. I could never imagine myself going back to get a PhD even tho my old professors keep nagging me every new semester. 

Your phrasing made it seem you believed there was some validity to that assertion. 

Doesn't matter, my trusty doggo will catch you for me.

I fluctuate between 205 and 215. 

 

In today's news I find myself in Eastern Europe. I had a prime steak at a fancy Italian restaurant for basically 7 dollars. I love Eastern Europe. 

That kind of takes the fun out of duelling , if you’re allowed a dog it’s only fair I have my army of hop hops .

[RhaenysBee]

Dear lord, I hate public healthcare so much. 

[RhaenysBee]

Oh guys... so,Eastern European health care things. 

After two phone calls you get the nurse to write you the referral for the blood work your doctor ordered. But she’s on vacation so she drops it at the nurse counter for you. The date of your blood work comes, you to go the hospital, check the map for the right clinic and follow the nurse’s instruction you wrote down on a post it, climb to the second floor (elevators are for the future) and rummage through the boxes on the nurse counter to find your referral (there’s obviously no nurse behind the counter to help, I hope you all knew that without my specifying it). Great.

You go back to the reception (note that this is a ten minute walk through a park among buildings that make you feel like you’re in a communist version of Frankenstein) and check the map for the lab. You get to the lab (hope to drink some water before your blood work, but then you are in Eastern Europe so the lab vending machine provides only soda drinks or coffee, because who the hell needs water in the 30 degree heat in a lab where your blood is taken) and the lady at the check in desk yells at you because she can’t hear her own voice saying. You tell her that’s not your fault, so she yells at you that she knows, she was talking to her colleagues, you dumb shit. Then she tells you you can’t get your blood taken because the referral (with your address and social security number) you spent 15 minutes obtaining from a box and an ID isn’t enough, you also need social security and residence card.

Okay, you go home and fetch all possible identification you have and return to the lab an hour later. Another lady at check in yells at you for wanting your results in email - typing in the referral number and adding your email address to the system takes a trillion years. And it’s also a waste of paper you dumb patient, when they have directions to use less paper. Now she has to print something (that I later got in email which it really was a waste of paper to print it for me, but I suppose she didn’t know this). Then she tells you that now you must think she is dumb but she is only stressed because there are so many dumb people (including you, supposedly).

Then you get your blood taken by a frighteningly decent human being, the price of which is a maimed arm and looking like a coke addict for the rest of the day. Then you are done and you leave the hospital premises and buy water in the first bakery and get to a cafe to finally have breakfast. Why didn’t I just pay for this thing? 

[Buckwheat]

Just came here to complain about health care system in this country. Will now read Rhae's post and compare experience.

[Buckwheat]

Aaaaaand nope. Okay, it is partly my fault that I decided to do that in the time when many people, including doctors, are on holiday, but still ... I was told two times already that really no doctors in this city, or maybe even in the whole country, accept new patients anymore, because they all have too many registered patients already. So I should just start asking at private clinics.

And no, I am not looking for some specialised treatment or procedure or whatever that only a few doctors are qualified to do. I just want to choose a doctor to be registered with and do a routine test.

[RhaenysBee]

15 minutes ago, Buckwheat said:

Aaaaaand nope. Okay, it is partly my fault that I decided to do that in the time when many people, including doctors, are on holiday, but still ... I was told two times already that really no doctors in this city, or maybe even in the whole country, accept new patients anymore, because they all have too many registered patients already. So I should just start asking at private clinics.

And no, I am not looking for some specialised treatment or procedure or whatever that only a few doctors are qualified to do. I just want to choose a doctor to be registered with and do a routine test.

 this is insanity. they kick you out and tell you to go afford private health care? (not that this doesn't happen here, it just never happened to me, but I've have heard similar stories)

In fact, private healthcare is kinda crappy here too, but it's still much better than public, so everybody who can afford it still take that route over the horror movie hospitals. 

[Buckwheat]

7 minutes ago, RhaenysBee said:

 this is insanity. they kick you out and tell you to go afford private health care? (not that this doesn't happen here, it just never happened to me, but I've have heard similar stories)

In fact, private healthcare is kinda crappy here too, but it's still much better than public, so everybody who can afford it still take that route over the horror movie hospitals. 

No, they recommended that I ask at private places that also have the licence to perform for patients on public health care.

And no, I never had a chosen doctor in this field, so they did not kick me out of anything. (Okay, first they told me in the students' health centre on the phone that I need to come in personally to make a first appointment, and after I came there, they told me they cannot have me there, so I suppose that was kind of being kicked out - but I was not registered there in the first place.) That is why I am doing this now. Better late than never, I suppose?

I am sorry about your story too. Glad you managed to have it done in the end. What is surprising to me in your story is that the nurse just left some documents for you in the office and left you to search for it. Seriously? I do not think that would happen here, nobody is allowed to see their super secret special doctorish papers!

[Jen'ari]

2 hours ago, RhaenysBee said:

Oh guys... so,Eastern European health care things. 

After two phone calls you get the nurse to write you the referral for the blood work your doctor ordered. But she’s on vacation so she drops it at the nurse counter for you. The date of your blood work comes, you to go the hospital, check the map for the right clinic and follow the nurse’s instruction you wrote down on a post it, climb to the second floor (elevators are for the future) and rummage through the boxes on the nurse counter to find your referral (there’s obviously no nurse behind the counter to help, I hope you all knew that without my specifying it). Great.

You go back to the reception (note that this is a ten minute walk through a park among buildings that make you feel like you’re in a communist version of Frankenstein) and check the map for the lab. You get to the lab (hope to drink some water before your blood work, but then you are in Eastern Europe so the lab vending machine provides only soda drinks or coffee, because who the hell needs water in the 30 degree heat in a lab where your blood is taken) and the lady at the check in desk yells at you because she can’t hear her own voice saying. You tell her that’s not your fault, so she yells at you that she knows, she was talking to her colleagues, you dumb shit. Then she tells you you can’t get your blood taken because the referral (with your address and social security number) you spent 15 minutes obtaining from a box and an ID isn’t enough, you also need social security and residence card.

Okay, you go home and fetch all possible identification you have and return to the lab an hour later. Another lady at check in yells at you for wanting your results in email - typing in the referral number and adding your email address to the system takes a trillion years. And it’s also a waste of paper you dumb patient, when they have directions to use less paper. Now she has to print something (that I later got in email which it really was a waste of paper to print it for me, but I suppose she didn’t know this). Then she tells you that now you must think she is dumb but she is only stressed because there are so many dumb people (including you, supposedly).

Then you get your blood taken by a frighteningly decent human being, the price of which is a maimed arm and looking like a coke addict for the rest of the day. Then you are done and you leave the hospital premises and buy water in the first bakery and get to a cafe to finally have breakfast. Why didn’t I just pay for this thing? 

That doesn’t sound at all pleasant, to be fair the public healthcare system in the U.K. isn’t great either, it’s so worth paying for insurance.

I hate having blood taken it hurts and looking like a heroin addict for the rest of the day isn’t fun either, the very worst though are the injections you get at the dentist!.

[honeyed chicken]

Well we pay through the nose for our healthcare and it ain't great either. I have not had a doctor in a decade. The local hospital can't afford 'em even with all the money we pay into the system  - and our hospital isn't even for profit  - those places can't spare you the time of day. And chances are they're going to make you take a bunch of tests you don't need. And as for who i do see - my last three p.c.p.s (primary care providers) have been n.p.s (nurse practitioners) or p.a.s (physician's assistants).

And we have relatively good coverage through Mrs. Chicken's work insurance. Usually done with a copay.

I will admit that our hospital does have AC and there's never been any yelling (I used to work there as an orderly when I was a kid many centuries ago - so I've spent a fair amount of time there).

We also have a for profit emergency care facility housed in an old Pizza Hut of all things. We've had to take Mrs. Chicken there a couple times in the past two years. it's quicker and cheaper than the emergency room at the hospital even though the hospital is two blocks away and the Pizza Hut is five km away.

[RhaenysBee]

2 hours ago, Buckwheat said:

No, they recommended that I ask at private places that also have the licence to perform for patients on public health care.

And no, I never had a chosen doctor in this field, so they did not kick me out of anything. (Okay, first they told me in the students' health centre on the phone that I need to come in personally to make a first appointment, and after I came there, they told me they cannot have me there, so I suppose that was kind of being kicked out - but I was not registered there in the first place.) That is why I am doing this now. Better late than never, I suppose?

I am sorry about your story too. Glad you managed to have it done in the end. What is surprising to me in your story is that the nurse just left some documents for you in the office and left you to search for it. Seriously? I do not think that would happen here, nobody is allowed to see their super secret special doctorish papers!

Ah, I guess that’s a fundamental differencia then, our system doesn’t work like this. You are automatically registered to public healthcare based on your place of residence. Of course you have to check in with a residence card the first time you go there, but otherwise they are obligated to see/treat you no matter how many people are registered with them. This applies for every field, if you go to your local clinic/hospital and ask for this or that specialist appointment they are obligated to provide it. Now if you want to go and see a public doctor somewhere out of your residence zone, they can “kick you out” aka refuse to take you as a patient. 

2 hours ago, Lord Sidious said:

That doesn’t sound at all pleasant, to be fair the public healthcare system in the U.K. isn’t great either, it’s so worth paying for insurance.

I hate having blood taken it hurts and looking like a heroin addict for the rest of the day isn’t fun either, the very worst though are the injections you get at the dentist!.

Now that’s the thing. We dont have an insurance system. Only a tiny portion of workplaces provide private healthcare packages, for the vast majority, it’s a pay as you go system. There’s no option to pay a regular monthly sum and cover expenses from that when you need examination or treatment for an issue or the other. You just make the private appointments and pay cash every time they do something to you. 

Yeah exactly. Uhh I should get a dental check up too. It’s been like three years since I had one :/ 

[The BlackBear]

3 hours ago, Lord Sidious said:

That doesn’t sound at all pleasant, to be fair the public healthcare system in the U.K. isn’t great either, it’s so worth paying for insurance.

Depends what you need, long term care could be better, but anything short term or life threatening it's damn good. Not to get on a soap-box (this isn't the thread) but I'm damn glad for the NHS every time I or a family member has needed it.

[RhaenysBee]

Apart from the lab appointment, and feeling like an old lady with my achy arm, twisted  ankle and 5 hours of shitty sleep, I went prom dress shopping with sister. The salon experience is nothing like on American tv. But she found the perfect dress, she got a pair of reasonable shoes and it all took only two days. Very efficient. 

[Vin]

23 hours ago, Lord Sidious said:

That kind of takes the fun out of duelling , if you’re allowed a dog it’s only fair I have my army of hop hops .

According to Wikipedia, Akitas were historically used to hunt bears so wabbits shouldn't be that tough, then again the closest Archie has gotten to hunting is chasing butterflies in the yard. 

 

On public health care. If only you'd just let the free market, you know, be free and not artificially strangle supply. Who the fuck wants to study 7-10 years of medicine then specialize and then do a sub specialty (realistically speaking doctors only begin to make any money and work meaningful work at 30 years of age) to then be paid a shitty government wage and be treated like a personal owned slave by the ingrate general public? Set the market free and it'll do what it always does, compete, present a range of services and choices and prices to fit all. The market only cares about green and that's a good thing. 

In today's slav watch, my attempts at rudimentary Russian have gone well. It is cute how much warmer people become when you try to speak their language. One of the lawyers has offered to take me and my partners in the deligation to a shooting range, I was delighted to accept, vodka and cold war weapons, what could go wrong? 

[The BlackBear]

20 minutes ago, Vin said:

On public health care. If only you'd just let the free market, you know, be free and not artificially strangle supply. Who the fuck wants to study 7-10 years of medicine then specialize and then do a sub specialty (realistically speaking doctors only begin to make any money and work meaningful work at 30 years of age) to then be paid a shitty government wage and be treated like a personal owned slave by the ingrate general public? Set the market free and it'll do what it always does, compete, present a range of services and choices and prices to fit all. The market only cares about green and that's a good thing. 

My sister in law is a doctor, as are at least three ringers in my regular peal band, they're all making very good money, are happy with their jobs and they're all NHS.

[RhaenysBee]

Guns and alcohol? No, I can't even imagine what could possibly go wrong with such combination  

Free market and fair health care don't go hand in hand, imo. 

According to acquaintances who moved to the UK, even public sector jobs pay very decently there. But Eastern Europe does indeed suffer from ridiculous public sector wages. (And ridiculous market sector wages as well, might I add)

 

[Jen'ari]

2 hours ago, RhaenysBee said:

Ah, I guess that’s a fundamental differencia then, our system doesn’t work like this. You are automatically registered to public healthcare based on your place of residence. Of course you have to check in with a residence card the first time you go there, but otherwise they are obligated to see/treat you no matter how many people are registered with them. This applies for every field, if you go to your local clinic/hospital and ask for this or that specialist appointment they are obligated to provide it. Now if you want to go and see a public doctor somewhere out of your residence zone, they can “kick you out” aka refuse to take you as a patient. 

Now that’s the thing. We dont have an insurance system. Only a tiny portion of workplaces provide private healthcare packages, for the vast majority, it’s a pay as you go system. There’s no option to pay a regular monthly sum and cover expenses from that when you need examination or treatment for an issue or the other. You just make the private appointments and pay cash every time they do something to you. 

Yeah exactly. Uhh I should get a dental check up too. It’s been like three years since I had one :/ 

Yeah that does seem a kind of backwards system, we just have a private healthcare package which I pay for but I’m not sure if that’s normal or not where you are?.

We have to pay for all dental stuff though.

1 hour ago, The EnglishBear said:

Depends what you need, long term care could be better, but anything short term or life threatening it's damn good. Not to get on a soap-box (this isn't the thread) but I'm damn glad for the NHS every time I or a family member has needed it.

I’ve not had that much experience of A&E fortunately, a broken leg when I was a teenager and a broken wrist and bruising elsewhere a while ago, plus having a baby which was far more painful than either!, although not actually A&E, for the times I did go to A&E itself though I dint find the doctors to be particularly confidence inspiring in their abilities and there was a long wait to get dealt with.

I plan to go private for any other medical issues I may have in the future.

32 minutes ago, Vin said:

According to Wikipedia, Akitas were historically used to hunt bears so wabbits shouldn't be that tough, then again the closest Archie has gotten to hunting is chasing butterflies in the yard. 

 

On public health care. If only you'd just let the free market, you know, be free and not artificially strangle supply. Who the fuck wants to study 7-10 years of medicine then specialize and then do a sub specialty (realistically speaking doctors only begin to make any money and work meaningful work at 30 years of age) to then be paid a shitty government wage and be treated like a personal owned slave by the ingrate general public? Set the market free and it'll do what it always does, compete, present a range of services and choices and prices to fit all. The market only cares about green and that's a good thing. 

In today's slav watch, my attempts at rudimentary Russian have gone well. It is cute how much warmer people become when you try to speak their language. One of the lawyers has offered to take me and my partners in the deligation to a shooting range, I was delighted to accept, vodka and cold war weapons, what could go wrong? 

But they’re not cute and fluffy, with little twitching noses and little ears .

 

 

[RhaenysBee]

2 minutes ago, Lord Sidious said:

Yeah that does seem a kind of backwards system, we just have a private healthcare package which I pay for but I’m not sure if that’s normal or not where you are?.

We have to pay for all dental stuff though.

And does that tie you to a specific medical provider? I mean it's possible to go to this or that private clinic and pay for a yearly package here too, but that ties you to that exact provider with that exact location and those exact doctors. Also, I can't think of more than two private clinics large enough to include every field in their package. So while that's the most expensive, I'm not sure it's the most practical and beneficial option here. 

Public dental is surprisingly good here. It's far from first class or even western average, but it serves its purpose and it's way more fair and reasonable (and even more professional) than private dental clinics. 

[Vin]

27 minutes ago, The EnglishBear said:

My sister in law is a doctor, as are at least three ringers in my regular peal band, they're all making very good money, are happy with their jobs and they're all NHS.

Good for them, I guess? Are we gonna pretend that the NHS being strained and inadequate has not been a major talking point in every major political discussion in the UK since Blair?  By both Tories and labor I might add. 

20 minutes ago, RhaenysBee said:

Guns and alcohol? No, I can't even imagine what could possibly go wrong with such combination  

Free market and fair health care don't go hand in hand, imo. 

According to acquaintances who moved to the UK, even public sector jobs pay very decently there. But Eastern Europe does indeed suffer from ridiculous public sector wages. (And ridiculous market sector wages as well, might I add)

 

As far as I can gleam it's a small historical exhibit with some ww2 relics and an adjacent firing range where people can fire off a few old AKs or Makarovs. The alcohol will probably come later in the evening but I couldn't resist the hyperbole. Although I am not too partial to vodka, I like things I can drink slowly. Good scotch is a bit expensive here tho. 

That's because the general belief in Europe is that health care is human right and therfore should be paid for by the government(which is a misconception in and of its own, government doesn't pay for anything, the tax payer does. Government creates nothing, it only redistributes) . It is not the same in the US. If you pay for your electricity why wouldn't you pay for your health care? The Swiss model is one of the few universal Healthcare systems that I can tolerate, heavily deregulized and competitive and without government subsidies or involvement which I love but on the other hand it's an individual mandate which I hate. 

The problem with public sector jobs is that the wages have an arbitrary element to them and do not reflect performance or the market factors. Who decides what a government doctor wage is worth? You? Me? It's dumb for us to go, there you go doctor person that's enough and you shouldn't ask for more or we'll call you greedy which is a common occurrence especially when there's a nursing strike and people start blaming doctors for eating up the budget and ask to cut their salaries. That's inherently unfair and drives down the motivation for people to become doctors. We should allow supply and demand to govern fair compensation which funnily enough has universally allowed newer and better services to exist and compete to lower prices and offer choices and freedom. 

Eastern Europe suffers from loss of skilled labor and massive corruption in large governments that cannot be sustained by their miniscule economies. Most countries in the EU shouldn't have been allowed in based on their economies but they were to further political agendas which is ironic considering the EU started as a steel and coal union trade agreement. 

9 minutes ago, Lord Sidious said:

Yeah that does seem a kind of backwards system, we just have a private healthcare package which I pay for but I’m not sure if that’s normal or not where you are?.

We have to pay for all dental stuff though.

I’ve not had that much experience of A&E fortunately, a broken leg when I was a teenager and a broken wrist and bruising elsewhere a while ago, plus having a baby which was far more painful than either!, although not actually A&E, for the times I did go to A&E itself though I dint find the doctors to be particularly confidence inspiring in their abilities and there was a long wait to get dealt with.

I plan to go private for any other medical issues I may have in the future.

But they’re not cute and fluffy, with little twitching noses and little ears .

 

 

Taste good too. 

[Buckwheat]

1 hour ago, RhaenysBee said:

Ah, I guess that’s a fundamental differencia then, our system doesn’t work like this. You are automatically registered to public healthcare based on your place of residence. Of course you have to check in with a residence card the first time you go there, but otherwise they are obligated to see/treat you no matter how many people are registered with them. This applies for every field, if you go to your local clinic/hospital and ask for this or that specialist appointment they are obligated to provide it. Now if you want to go and see a public doctor somewhere out of your residence zone, they can “kick you out” aka refuse to take you as a patient.

We have a public system where you are technically allowed to choose whichever doctor you want, but obviously for convenience you would choose somebody close to you geographically. It should be so that you can register with somebody in health care centre or hospital, but there are also some private offices with a licence for treatment of patients that only have the usual public insurance.

Obviously I do not want to go private for something that is basic and covered by the health insurance, and it is stupid that I would have to.

Full (possibly too personal) disclosure:

Spoiler

All I need is to register with a gynaecologist and go to a first regular visit there and get a pap smear. No, I have not done it yet, despite the fact that I am 26. This is a basic thing that the healthcare system covers and it is ridiculous to be told no doctor in the city accepts new patients for that.

We do not have such a thing as a residence card. The only card you need to show to a doctor is your public health insurance card, which everybody has.

Quote

Now that’s the thing. We dont have an insurance system. Only a tiny portion of workplaces provide private healthcare packages, for the vast majority, it’s a pay as you go system. There’s no option to pay a regular monthly sum and cover expenses from that when you need examination or treatment for an issue or the other. You just make the private appointments and pay cash every time they do something to you. 

Yeah exactly. Uhh I should get a dental check up too. It’s been like three years since I had one :/ 

On the other hand, I am good with my teeth and get dental checkups regularly every half a year or so.

[RhaenysBee]

6 minutes ago, Vin said:

Good for them, I guess? Are we gonna pretend that the NHS being strained and inadequate has not been a major talking point in every major political discussion in the UK since Blair?  By both Tories and labor I might add. 

As far as I can gleam it's a small historical exhibit with some ww2 relics and an adjacent firing range where people can fire off a few old AKs or Makarovs. The alcohol will probably come later in the evening but I couldn't resist the hyperbole. Although I am not too partial to vodka, I like things I can drink slowly. Good scotch is a bit expensive here tho. 

That's because the general belief in Europe is that health care is human right and therfore should be paid for by the government(which is a misconception in and of its own, government doesn't pay for anything, the tax payer does. Government creates nothing, it only redistributes) . It is not the same in the US. If you pay for your electricity why wouldn't you pay for your health care? The Swiss model is one of the few universal Healthcare systems that I can tolerate, heavily deregulized and competitive and without government subsidies or involvement which I love but on the other hand it's an individual mandate which I hate. 

The problem with public sector jobs is that the wages have an arbitrary element to them and do not reflect performance or the market factors. Who decides what a government doctor wage is worth? You? Me? It's dumb for us to go, there you go doctor person that's enough and you shouldn't ask for more or we'll call you greedy which is a common occurrence especially when there's a nursing strike and people start blaming doctors for eating up the budget and ask to cut their salaries. That's inherently unfair and drives down the motivation for people to become doctors. We should allow supply and demand to govern fair compensation which funnily enough has universally allowed newer and better services to exist and compete to lower prices and offer choices and freedom. 

Eastern Europe suffers from loss of skilled labor and massive corruption in large governments that cannot be sustained by their miniscule economies. Most countries in the EU shouldn't have been allowed in based on their economies but they were to further political agendas which is ironic considering the EU started as a steel and coal union trade agreement. 

Taste good too. 

That sounds much safer than the previous hyperbole. Have fun! 

Well there are too many points I disagree with to go further into this topic. 

The EU is an anomaly for which we can still be very grateful. Rather paradox. We have been in the EU for almost 15 years and we still don't have euros for a currency. This is entirely ridiculous and makes it impossible for our economy to catch up with EU standards (which would in turn enable us to becme members of the euro zone) - this is a rough outline of the situation, I know it's more complex and I don't know (or wish to know) the specifics. Of course, pulling out of the EU would be an economic and policital suicide, so we are kinda stuck. The economic growth we can achieve in the current situation goes only as far as slightly better welfare than ten years ago, skyrocketing real estate prices and a long awaited increase in salaries, which in turn results in big ass multi national companies packing up and moving to Ukraine and Romania and Serbia where labor force is as cheap as or cheaper than we were five years ago. Another devil's circle.

3 minutes ago, Buckwheat said:

We have a public system where you are technically allowed to choose whichever doctor you want, but obviously for convenience you would choose somebody close to you geographically. It should be so that you can register with somebody in health care centre or hospital, but there are also some private offices with a licence for treatment of patients that only have the usual public insurance.

Obviously I do not want to go private for something that is basic and covered by the health insurance, and it is stupid that I would have to.

Full (possibly too personal) disclosure:

  Reveal hidden contents

All I need is to register with a gynaecologist and go to a first regular visit there and get a pap smear. No, I have not done it yet, despite the fact that I am 26. This is a basic thing that the healthcare system covers and it is ridiculous to be told no doctor in the city accepts new patients for that.

We do not have such a thing as a residence card. The only card you need to show to a doctor is your public health insurance card, which everybody has.

On the other hand, I am good with my teeth and get dental checkups regularly every half a year or so.

I see, it's somewhat different here. Gyneacology was the first thing I went private with, I just feel more comfortable with that and if comfort is important in any area, this is definitely it. Then again, I can see why you wouldn't want to pay for something that basic. 

I suppose we have resident cards because that's what helps with the residence based distribution of public services (which is the general concept in our public sector).