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What if Robert Baratheon did not accept Jaime into his kingsguard?


norwaywolf123

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General

Why did Robert Baratheon accept Jaime Lannister into the kingsguard? Did Robert and his advisors want to slight Tywin?

Was it right of Robert Baratheon to accept Jaime Lannister into the kingsguard?

Possibilties for Jaime after Aerys's death and Robert's ascension to the Iron Throne.

I think that there was several possibilities for Jaime's future after he killed Aerys and Robert became king.

1. Jaime could stay on the kingsguard, this time serving Robert Baratheon.

2. Jaime could be forced to joing the Night's Watch.

3. Jaime could be freed from his kingsguard vows or just not get to renew them. Thus Jaime would be able to marry. Still there is some complexity to this scenario. Would Jaime still be required by oath to serve Viserys, Viserys being Aerys heir after Jaime killed Aerys?

4. Jaime could leave Westeros.

Anything else?

Discussing possbilities

2. Would Tywin accept that his son was gone if Jaime joined the Night's Watch? How would Jaime's life in the Night's Watch be like? How would Jaime socially interact with his families opponents who was sent to take the black?

3. Could Jaime Lannister have returned as the heir of Tywin Lannister? If so would Jaime marry? What would happen to Cersei and Jaime's affair? How might Jaime's personallity be affected by this divergence from canon? How would Jaime's reputation be affected by this divergence from canon?

4. What kind of life would Jaime likely have outside Westeros? Would he be in danger for assasins sent by Westerosi paymaster or targaryen sympathisers in Essos? Could Jaime hunt Daenerys and Viserys? Would Jaime be sucessfull in hunting Viserys and Daenerys? What if Jaime married while in Essos? How would his offspring be seen in Westeros, especially by House Lannister? Could a Westerosi noble house send a daughter to Essos with the purpose of marrying Jaime?

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4 hours ago, norwaywolf123 said:

General

Why did Robert Baratheon accept Jaime Lannister into the kingsguard? Did Robert and his advisors want to slight Tywin?

Was it right of Robert Baratheon to accept Jaime Lannister into the kingsguard?

Possibilties for Jaime after Aerys's death and Robert's ascension to the Iron Throne.

I think that there was several possibilities for Jaime's future after he killed Aerys and Robert became king.

1. Jaime could stay on the kingsguard, this time serving Robert Baratheon.

2. Jaime could be forced to joing the Night's Watch.

3. Jaime could be freed from his kingsguard vows or just not get to renew them. Thus Jaime would be able to marry. Still there is some complexity to this scenario. Would Jaime still be required by oath to serve Viserys, Viserys being Aerys heir after Jaime killed Aerys?

4. Jaime could leave Westeros.

Anything else?

The reasoning is, for me, fairly simple:

Keeping Jaime bound to Kingsguard vows was the only honourable pretext for Robert, and is counsellors like Jon and Hoster, to keep hold of their Lannister hostage.

Sending Jaime to Wall (or executing him) meant pissing off Tywin and losing their hostage. Releasing Jaime from vows as a civilian subject of Baratheon kings would have meant pleasing Tywin but also giving up the hostage.

They did not have another Lannister hostage and were not expecting any. Cersei was unforeseen. Eddard was of course going to recover his sister now that Rhaegaer was dead and the war won.

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Sending Jaime to the Wall would cause Tywin to fight Robert then and there. With the Tyrells likely joining in on Tywin's side given the right circumstances. Given these are the two Great Houses that suffered virtually no losses during the rebellion, it would not be an ideal scenario for Robert and his men.

I honestly don't see Jaime ever going to the Wall. He'd either fight with his father, or take exile. I could actually see him in the Golden Company if things went far enough south for him.

If Robert didn't want Jaime on his Kingsguard, not unreasonable, releasing him would do the trick and Tywin would thank him for it given he gets his heir back. 

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It's been my theory that Jon Arryn left Jaime on the King's Guard so that Robert's heirs would have a better shot at getting Casterly Rock. If Tywin died and Jaime couldn't inherit, technically Tyrion should be ahead of Cersei. But they might be able to make an argument for removing him from the succession as being "unsuitable" or he might die in the interim (there can be associated medical issues with Dwarfism).

If Cersei had both the King and Kevan Lannister (another alternative heir) backing her she could have made Tommen Lord of Casterly Rock. Likely taking her surname over his father's.

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5 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

Sending Jaime to the Wall would cause Tywin to fight Robert then and there. With the Tyrells likely joining in on Tywin's side given the right circumstances. Given these are the two Great Houses that suffered virtually no losses during the rebellion, it would not be an ideal scenario for Robert and his men.

I honestly don't see Jaime ever going to the Wall. He'd either fight with his father, or take exile. I could actually see him in the Golden Company if things went far enough south for him.

If Robert didn't want Jaime on his Kingsguard, not unreasonable, releasing him would do the trick and Tywin would thank him for it given he gets his heir back.

Why would the Tyrells side with the Lannisters against the Baratheons, Arryns, Starks, Tullys and Greyjoys?

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1 hour ago, GallowsKnight said:

It's been my theory that Jon Arryn left Jaime on the King's Guard so that Robert's heirs would have a better shot at getting Casterly Rock. If Tywin died and Jaime couldn't inherit, technically Tyrion should be ahead of Cersei. But they might be able to make an argument for removing him from the succession as being "unsuitable" or he might die in the interim (there can be associated medical issues with Dwarfism).

Could not have been.

Because at the time Jon and Robert made the decision to keep Jaime in Kingsguard, they had no plan to marry Cersei. Robert was planning to marry Lyanna, remember.

On the other hand, the factors of Jaime a Kingsguard, Tyrion a dwarf and Tywin not remarried after over ten years a widower may well have been considerations to marry Cersei.

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Ok, no need to overthink this. You can only take two ways. Jamie (15 year old)won’t take the black, he just saved the city(also might not admit the truth). Robert can pardon him or chop his head off. But he found a significantly easier take over of Kong’s landing thanks to Tywin/Jaime. Politically you have to let it slide or wipe the Lannisters out. 

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13 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Since the culmination of Bob's arc was his cuckolding by Cersei with Jaime, the entire story would not happen 

Could not Jaime continue the affair with Cersei even if he was not on the Kingsguard? Maybe Jaime could travel often or sometimes to King's landing.

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3 hours ago, Jaak said:

Could not have been.

Because at the time Jon and Robert made the decision to keep Jaime in Kingsguard, they had no plan to marry Cersei. Robert was planning to marry Lyanna, remember.

On the other hand, the factors of Jaime a Kingsguard, Tyrion a dwarf and Tywin not remarried after over ten years a widower may well have been considerations to marry Cersei.

You suspect that Robert and Jon wished for Robert's children to inherit Casterly Rock in addition to the Iron Throne?

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13 hours ago, Jaak said:

The reasoning is, for me, fairly simple:

Keeping Jaime bound to Kingsguard vows was the only honourable pretext for Robert, and is counsellors like Jon and Hoster, to keep hold of their Lannister hostage.

Sending Jaime to Wall (or executing him) meant pissing off Tywin and losing their hostage. Releasing Jaime from vows as a civilian subject of Baratheon kings would have meant pleasing Tywin but also giving up the hostage.

They did not have another Lannister hostage and were not expecting any. Cersei was unforeseen. Eddard was of course going to recover his sister now that Rhaegaer was dead and the war won.

Could not Jaime be taken in as a ward? Then he would have been a hostage of sorts. Perhaps they would want him as a ward close to themselfes(Robert Baratheon, Jon Arryn) but perhaps someone more isolated like Roose could also take Jaime in as a ward.

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1 hour ago, norwaywolf123 said:

Could not Jaime continue the affair with Cersei even if he was not on the Kingsguard? Maybe Jaime could travel often or sometimes to King's landing.

Maybe but it seems unlikely that thay would manage to have enough sex for it to result in three kids, especially if Cersei is taking moon-tea to stop Robert from getting her preggo.

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8 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Why would the Tyrells side with the Lannisters against the Baratheons, Arryns, Starks, Tullys and Greyjoys?

Greyjoys were regarded as a minor factor.

As of Trident, it had been 4 Kingdoms (Vale, Stormlands, North, Riverlands) against effectively 2 (Reach, Dorne), with Westerlands staying neutral. With Tywin joining Robert, 5 against 2 became overwhelming odds, and Tyrells and then Martells surrendered.

If Robert pissed off Tywin with gross ingratitude then provoking Lannisters would mean 4 against 3. Good chances to fight Robert to a (bloody) draw.

Quote

Ok, no need to overthink this. You can only take two ways. Jamie (15 year old)won’t take the black, he just saved the city(also might not admit the truth). Robert can pardon him or chop his head off. But he found a significantly easier take over of Kong’s landing thanks to Tywin/Jaime. Politically you have to let it slide or wipe the Lannisters out. 

There was the third option. Pardon Jaime and release him from his vows.

Robert could easily have declared that since Kingsguard was a Targaryen creation and Durrandons had had no such thing, Targaryen Dynasty was over and Kingsguard vows with it. Or that Baratheons were a new dynasty and would have a new Kingsguard (with Jaime not volunteering and not invited to join). Few would have blamed Robert if he pardoned Kingslayer but declined to trust his own life to Jaime.

But releasing Jaime as heir to Casterly Rock would have meant giving up a hostage, and rewarding traitors even more than they deserved.

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1 hour ago, Jaak said:

Greyjoys were regarded as a minor factor.

As of Trident, it had been 4 Kingdoms (Vale, Stormlands, North, Riverlands) against effectively 2 (Reach, Dorne), with Westerlands staying neutral. With Tywin joining Robert, 5 against 2 became overwhelming odds, and Tyrells and then Martells surrendered.

If Robert pissed off Tywin with gross ingratitude then provoking Lannisters would mean 4 against 3. Good chances to fight Robert to a (bloody) draw.

There was the third option. Pardon Jaime and release him from his vows.

Robert could easily have declared that since Kingsguard was a Targaryen creation and Durrandons had had no such thing, Targaryen Dynasty was over and Kingsguard vows with it. Or that Baratheons were a new dynasty and would have a new Kingsguard (with Jaime not volunteering and not invited to join). Few would have blamed Robert if he pardoned Kingslayer but declined to trust his own life to Jaime.

But releasing Jaime as heir to Casterly Rock would have meant giving up a hostage, and rewarding traitors even more than they deserved.

Jaime or some other Lannister could still be a ward, guest or hostage.

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6 hours ago, Jaak said:

Greyjoys were regarded as a minor factor.

As of Trident, it had been 4 Kingdoms (Vale, Stormlands, North, Riverlands) against effectively 2 (Reach, Dorne), with Westerlands staying neutral. With Tywin joining Robert, 5 against 2 became overwhelming odds, and Tyrells and then Martells surrendered.

If Robert pissed off Tywin with gross ingratitude then provoking Lannisters would mean 4 against 3. Good chances to fight Robert to a (bloody) draw.

There was the third option. Pardon Jaime and release him from his vows.

Robert could easily have declared that since Kingsguard was a Targaryen creation and Durrandons had had no such thing, Targaryen Dynasty was over and Kingsguard vows with it. Or that Baratheons were a new dynasty and would have a new Kingsguard (with Jaime not volunteering and not invited to join). Few would have blamed Robert if he pardoned Kingslayer but declined to trust his own life to Jaime.

But releasing Jaime as heir to Casterly Rock would have meant giving up a hostage, and rewarding traitors even more than they deserved.

The Greyjoys are not a minor power.

It wouldn't. Tywin had already slaughtered Elia and her children. The Martells won't side with him.

The Tyrells are social climbers. No doubt they'd see the opportunity to ingratiate themselves to the new regime. Especially if Maces sisters were unmarried and Lyanna had died.

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22 hours ago, Jaak said:

Could not have been.

Because at the time Jon and Robert made the decision to keep Jaime in Kingsguard, they had no plan to marry Cersei. Robert was planning to marry Lyanna, remember.

Plans don't have to be fully formed immediately. They can evolve. They might have initially kept Jaime in the Kingsguard initially as a subtle hostage to Tywin. Then when Robert married Cersei, it had the other benefit I mentioned.

Also at the risk of being insensitive, Jon Arryn (even if Robert didn't) very possibly might have considered Lyanna "soiled goods" having been allegedly raped by Rhaegar. He might not have wanted Robert to marry Lyanna if she was recovered. I don't think that's right, just that they do live in a very sexist society.

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It would be a pretty stupid move politically. The Lannisters were late to the party, so to speak, and ensuring that their eldest son was close at hand was a pretty good move. Dismissing him, even to the Wall, would essentially remove an important bit of leverage that Rob had over Tywin. Which was probably why Tywin was happy enough that the crown took on huge debts to him, to prevent Rob exploiting it too much.

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On 5/25/2018 at 6:47 AM, GallowsKnight said:

Also at the risk of being insensitive, Jon Arryn (even if Robert didn't) very possibly might have considered Lyanna "soiled goods" having been allegedly raped by Rhaegar. He might not have wanted Robert to marry Lyanna if she was recovered. I don't think that's right, just that they do live in a very sexist society.

That Lyanna was soiled goods was known from the outset of the rebellion.

Jon Arryn himself accepted Lysa as soiled goods, as Hoster´s  price for alliance.

Messy breakup between Eddard and Robert because of Lyanna was a danger Jon might have been worried about. Like, Eddard recovers Lyanna, Robert does not want her back because soiled goods, Eddard backs his sister over her faithless groom.

Robert believed Lyanna loved him and was abducted without her consent. Westeros believed the same, such as any witnesses of the abduction on the road by 7 men. Robert would not have liked to hear the opposite, and anyone who suspected otherwise might have liked an opportunity to suppress evidence.

But sex is known to cause pregnancies sometimes - even if nonconsensual.

If Robert was outright asked, before Sack, and in front of Jon and Eddard "What should be done if Lyanna is expecting Rhaegaer´s bastard?" - what would Robert have said?

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