The George [did not have] The Blackfyre subplot already in mind when he wrote Game

[Back door hodor]

I don't think the fact that every single detail of the plot and world were not worked out before george started writing takes away from the story we are getting. Building a world like this is incredibly complex, and I for one find the concept of previous drafts and ideas that are changed and reused elsewhere to be intriguing.

Also I don't think this process is unusual(search for old drafts of star wars or Tolkiens history of middle earth, just for two very mainstream examples) and have heard(mostly on this forum admittedly), that George described his writing process as "gardening " Which he explained to mean that while he had a basic outline, characters, concepts, and storylines can and will change as he continues to write.

[chrisdaw]

It was never going to be the case that Drogon is black and Rhaegal is green because the first dance was between the blacks and greens.

The first dance was between the blacks and the greens because Drogon is black and Rhaegal is green.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

On 5/29/2018 at 4:19 PM, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Understand what you are referencing in a series I’m overly familiar with on a forum for the purpose of discussing said series? 

Thankfully I don’t think I should, as I don’t think it exists... but I’ve been wrong before, so my apologies for the curiosity! 

We were referencing something the two of us have discussed before in other threads and in PMs. So there was no reason you should have known what we meant.

[Lost Melnibonean]

23 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

It was never going to be the case that Drogon is black and Rhaegal is green because the first dance was between the blacks and greens.

The first dance was between the blacks and the greens because Drogon is black and Rhaegal is green.

Yeah, I suppose you're right. But what about the black and green (and blue) combinations we see in Clash? Could he have had it worked out by 1998? 

[chrisdaw]

3 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Yeah, I suppose you're right. But what about the black and green (and blue) combinations we see in Clash? Could he have had it worked out by 1998? 

Not sure what you're referring to specifically in Clash but I would think he worked out Dany on the black dragon would fight the pretender on the green dragon and that Tyrion would be in-between them on the other dragon during the process of deciding to include 3 dragons. And things like Tyrion's eyes, Dany's painful slippers or the colours for the sides in the first dance all logically spring from there.

[Seams]

10 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Yeah, I suppose you're right. But what about the black and green (and blue) combinations we see in Clash? Could he have had it worked out by 1998? 

I think colors were worked out before Catelyn arrived at Bitterbridge to parley with Renly (Clash, Chap. 22). I'm pretty sure the Rainbow Guard is the Rosetta Stone for colors. Some or all elements of the colors -- I'm thinking the primary colors as well as black, white, grey -- were set even before that, through details such as Tyrion's eyes, as @chrisdaw mentions, as well as the Stark sigil, the direwolf Ghost, the weirwoods, etc.

I wonder when he thought of Garth Greenhand? King Mern (Gardener) of the Reach is mentioned in AGoT, Tyrion II (Chap. 13) but their green hand sigil is not mentioned at that point. Ah, I see Garth is mentioned in the House Tyrell profile in the back of the book. So the green motif was definitely part of GRRM's thinking when that appendix was written. (Was the Appendix included in the early editions of AGoT?)

[The hairy bear]

On 6/3/2018 at 4:55 AM, chrisdaw said:

It was never going to be the case that Drogon is black and Rhaegal is green because the first dance was between the blacks and greens.

The first dance was between the blacks and the greens because Drogon is black and Rhaegal is green.

I honestly think that the colors have absolutely no hidden meaning. Not everything has to be a a hidden hint or an allegory of some past event. In my experience, George doesn't write that way.

The dance being between blacks and greens make perfect sense by itself, given that the conflict was between an essentially Targaryen line and one whose support came basically from the Reach.

53 minutes ago, Seams said:

 Was the Appendix included in the early editions of AGoT?

Yes, from the first one, with the only difference of Viserys II being Aegon III's fourth son instead of his younger brother.

[Lost Melnibonean]

9 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Not sure what you're referring to specifically in Clash but I would think he worked out Dany on the black dragon would fight the pretender on the green dragon and that Tyrion would be in-between them on the other dragon during the process of deciding to include 3 dragons. And things like Tyrion's eyes, Dany's painful slippers or the colours for the sides in the first dance all logically spring from there.

This is what I am getting at. There are a lot of black and green combinations in the books. Tyrion's could have been unrelated to a future conflict which would only later come to be symbolized by black and green, since Lannister eyes are typically green, and since  lack would be the obvious second color for that sinister appearance enabling the imp to give folks those uncomfortable stares. 

The black and green combos I am most interested in include blue, which was obviously associated with Jon Snow by the time Clash was written... Patchface's underwater smoke bubbles, and the mating snakes that form the arch in Qarth. 

Your post suggests to me that from the beginning, the George at least could have intended to have Daenerys ride the black dragon, and the pretender to ride the green dragon. 

[Seams]

Not sure whether to put this here or in your topic about the legend of the Storm King as foreshadowing. I think it's a better fit here because it focuses on the way GRRM may have constructed the backstory as he was working out the plotlines.

I'm starting to suspect that Edric Storm will play an important role. He may come back to kill Melisandre some day. And / or he might represent one of the big heroes from the age of heroes: Durran Godsgrief. The wiki reminds me that Ser Andrew Estermont, who is a first cousin of the Baratheons on their mother's side, took Edric into hiding in Essos, to keep Melisandre from burning him alive after the death of Joffrey. When I looked into the details of Andrew and the House Estermont story, I found that there have been conflicting details given for House Estermont relationships and lines of descent:

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Estermont/Family_Trees

I don't think GRRM makes mistakes, but I do think he uses deliberate ambiguity and contradiction sometimes (blaming it on unreliable narrators or just doing it because he wants to make two things true at once -- alternative facts, as it were). There's a similar ambiguity or contradiction in the names of two Bulwer characters. (I think the Bulwer with two names may represent brothers at the Whitewalls tournament, if that matters.)

I'm wondering whether the Estermont contradictions might foreshadow something about the return of the Storm King, either in the form of Edric or in the form of Andrew Estermont. It's possible that the original plan included Edric, but dropping the five-year gap gave a key role instead to Andrew. GRRM needs this returning character to have a level of Estermont heritage or Age of Heroes bloodline at least as strong as the Baratheon bloodline, so he played around with the family tree as he was working out the back story. I also think GRRM is enjoying focusing our attention on the nominal secret Targs or princelings or usurpers - Jon, Bran, Dany, fAegon, Stannis, etc. - but will surprise us in one or two cases by revealing that the arc really belonged to someone in their entourage. For instance, Davos may have a destiny more important than Stannis.

Notice that Brackens, Blackwoods and Darklyns are specifically mentioned as present and participating in the Age of Heroes. I think the players in that era are going to be reborn in the current story and give us our denouement.

It's probably also significant that Edric and Andrew travel on a ship owned by Salladhor Saan. There are clues that Salladhor is a symbolic Bloodraven or one of the other Great Bastards. If he is helping to bring about a new Age of Heroes by manipulating the new Durran, it fits that he would offer his ship to smuggle the boy and his guardian to safety in Essos.

A detail regarding the potential significance of Edric Storm: Edric Storm, Devan Seaworth and Shireen Baratheon all take lessons together from Maester Pylos. I think there may be an air, sea and stone (from the greyscale) symbolism here. Perhaps intended to contrast with the dragon having three heads.