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Why do the direwolves hate Tyrion?


Katerine459

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So, I've been rereading the series (actually, I read the series, and now I'm listening to it, which is not a way of doing things that I recommend, if you want to avoid being really irritated all the time), and got really stuck on a big question that I think has huge implications for Tyrion's character, and for the overall plot, but a search for the question got no results. That question is: why do the direwolves hate Tyrion?

I'm not kidding... I'm losing sleep over this question! So here's what I've figured out so far, and I would welcome any (serious) theories.

I'm taking it as a given that direwolves are highly intelligent, and they are the destined protectors of the Stark children, and they can sense stuff, like threats to the Stark children. So I don't think the direwolves hate Tyrion for the same shallow reasons that humans hate him (because he's a dwarf and ugly).

They might also be "of ice," in the same way Dany's dragons are "of fire." So maybe this gives weight to the Tyrion Targaryen theory? (Except, why did we never hear anything about Ghost hating Maester Aemon? Unless Ghost is unusual because he's Jon's... but Ghost hated Tyrion too.)

Or maybe it's because he's a Lannister, and the Lannisters are pretty much responsible for the deaths of Lady, Grey Wind, and Robb? I don't much like this theory, as it implies that the direwolves can't tell the difference between Tyrion and his relatives.

Or maybe sometime in the future, Tyrion will betray everybody? I love Tyrion's character, so I really don't want it to be this, but it does seem to make the most sense. Especially given Quaithe's warning to Dany, not to trust the "lion" (when Tyrion's the only lion that Dany's likely to meet anytime soon... assuming Quaithe's warning is to be trusted in the first place).

Or maybe Tyrion's an unreliable narrator, and GRRM's been lying to us about his character this whole time?

Yeah. This has been really, really confusing me. :) What do you think?

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They sense his dragon blood, they don't like it. First Men and Andals, ice and fire, direwolf and dragon. Jon marching on Tyrion's IT will be the final political war of the series, he is their enemy.

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Just now, chrisdaw said:

They sense his dragon blood, they don't like it. First Men and Andals, ice and fire, direwolf and dragon. Jon marching on Tyrion's IT will be the final political war of the series, he is their enemy.

I mentioned this in my OP:

Quote

They might also be "of ice," in the same way Dany's dragons are "of fire." So maybe this gives weight to the Tyrion Targaryen theory? (Except, why did we never hear anything about Ghost hating Maester Aemon? Unless Ghost is unusual because he's Jon's... but Ghost hated Tyrion too.)

So... why, if that's the case?

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1 minute ago, Katerine459 said:

I mentioned this in my OP:

So... why, if that's the case?

Because instinctual animal reactions are not consistent in real life and so don't have to be in a book series. GRRM has a point to make with Tyrion that he doesn't with Aemon, Aemon won't be flying any dragons against Starks in battle.

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Because instinctual animal reactions are not consistent in real life and so don't have to be in a book series. GRRM has a point to make with Tyrion that he doesn't with Aemon, Aemon won't be flying any dragons against Starks in battle.

Assuming, though, that Jon is also a Targaryen who will be riding a dragon (which I think has been all but confirmed, as I think the show does have to stay true to the major plot points, even if they completely make up/muck up everything else)... wouldn't Ghost hate Jon as well? This isn't about absolute consistency... we're talking about the same wolf, following different rules for different people for whom the same rules apply. It just doesn't make sense.

Also, while fire and ice will battle each other (or humanity will battle them both, or the two will find a way to coexist), I can't imagine that the Starks and Dany will actively choose to play into that destiny. Tyrion and Jon were friends, Bran has no antipathy for anyone, and Dany's a decent, good-hearted person, if a bit of a hothead (pun intended). So's Tyrion, for that matter. I don't think the song of ice and fire is about the Starks against the Targaryens... I think it's about the dragons against the white walkers, with the Starks and Targaryens playing huge roles.

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We know from George Martin's pitch letter for AGOT that there was, and likely will be, friction between Tyrion and Jon over one of the Stark girls.  Now, it may not play out exactly like that in the final text but the broad strokes are there, there will be a major personal conflict between Tyrion and Jon, Lannister vs. Stark.  That will add some needed drama between those two families and could make Jon a little less boring.  The wolves are not necessarily smart.  The author just wants to drop hints here and there.

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The direwolves are there to protect the Starks whenever one of them is feeling hurt, angry, unsafe etc the direwolves will react to it.

When Tyrion and Jon were on their way to the Wall Jon is upset because Tyrion was teasing him and even though we know that Tyrion feels bad about it from his pov, Jon doesn't know that because he's not a mind reader so Ghost picks up on Jon's feelings towards Tyrion and goes on the defensive.  Likewise When Tyrion goes back to Winterfell Robb has reason to believe that one of the Lannisters tried to murder Bran so the direwolves pick up on Robbs hostility and react to it.

I don't believe that the direwolves are reacting to Targaryen blood because even if it turns out that Jon isn't a Taygaryen (which I doubt) Aemon a Targaryen is also at the Wall and doesn't have a problem with ghost at all.

I do believe that Tryion is going to have a slightly villainous role later on in the story. After Tyrion discovered that Jaime lied to him about his wife he starts going down a very dark path so the direwolves reacting badly to Tyrion could be a hint towards that.

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1 hour ago, chrisdaw said:

They sense his dragon blood, they don't like it. First Men and Andals, ice and fire, direwolf and dragon. Jon marching on Tyrion's IT will be the final political war of the series, he is their enemy.

By that logic they should hate Jon. Don't get me wrong I'm an advocate of A+J=T but I don't think that's the reason.

 

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

The direwolves pick up on Robb's hostile feelings towards Tyrion, that's all. 

I'm not even sure if that's it. Jon and Robb respectively had hostile feelings towards Tyrion sure, but Bran never did and Summer was at Tyrion's throat as well. Pack mentality maybe? Honestly I think it's just a lose end or even plot hole and the whole point was just to demonstrate early on how badass the Starks are with their direwolves and the bond between them.

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1 hour ago, Katerine459 said:

This isn't about absolute consistency... we're talking about the same wolf, following different rules for different people for whom the same rules apply. It just doesn't make sense.

That's what consistency is. There doesn't need be any more wiggle room than animal instinct, but he has it in the hereditary dragon blood features showing themselves randomly in bloodlines.

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11 hours ago, Katerine459 said:

They might also be "of ice," in the same way Dany's dragons are "of fire."

This is probably it, but also "of winter". The wolves are more than big dogs; they seem to have access to a spiritual dimension, which heavily twists their perception of events (e.g. is it ok for Bran to climb a tree?).

When they see Tyrion, they probably sense a dangerous outsider - a child of Lann, containing the essence of the sun and summer.

And when they look at Robb, they probably don't see an over-stressed boy lord, they see the King of Winter, waxing wroth at his ultimate foe. So the wolves go to war.

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14 hours ago, Katerine459 said:

 :) What do you think?

It's funny how the same topic can lie dormant for years and then suddenly appear in two, three or more threads all at once.

I subscribe to the theory that they can sense the unease that their wargs feel. Tyrion is a Lannister and the Lanns are suspected of trying to kill Bran, so ergo any Lannister will get a hostile reception from the wolves. Even if, as mentioned above, Bran had no ill feelings toward Tyrion at that moment, Robb does, which would then fuel Grey Wind's reaction and, since we learn later that all of the wolves can sense each other even over great distances, this hostility would be picked up by Summer and Shaggy D.

Earlier, Ghost is perfectly fine when Jon and Tyrion are talking, but as soon Jon -- who still thinks Bran just fell from the tower -- becomes upset at what Tyrion is saying, Ghost reacts.

The problem arises later when the Red Wedding plot is unfolding. GW does not like Rolph Spicer even though Robb is not suspicious or mistrustful of him at all. At the same time, GW doesn't appear to have any problem with Sybelle, although she and her children are fearful of him. Then at their arrival at the Twins, GW goes after Petyr, again, without any reason to think Robb was angry for fearful of him.

So it does seem that the wolves can be set off by a number of things -- not just the feelings and emotions of their wargs and each other, but their own instincts as well -- or, perhaps, from some other source...?

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I've wondered about this as well and have favored all the various reasons stated at one point, but now suspect that it is all that combined. As for Aemon, Ghost runs free and doesn't really come inside much unless sleeping with Jon or at the election (and there are so many people, and so much going on that Jon hardly notes Maester Aemon at all, so I don't see that as interacting) so do they ever interact? I don't remember them ever being together, but could just be a memory lapse on my part. So If A+J=T (I believe this personally) then the wolves may react differently to Jon because he is half Stark and his dragon side seems dormant until he burns his hand. Plus he was with them from day one, and it was his words that saved their lives and Bran said that the wolf he held seemed to understand (likely sensed through Brans emotions) what was being said. So that shouldn't be overlooked. They could also overlook a natural enemy if their owner accepts them and they sense no hostility. 

Even the thing with Tyrion, Ghost knocked him down but didn't hurt him. So it seemed more like a warning, as Jon had made him sit and allow Tyrion to touch him in an earlier chapter when Ghost was not being friendly initially showing that although Jon was upset in both instances he doesn't fear Tyrion. Or because Ghost seems a bit different and is Jons he may react differently than the other wolves.

The other wolves never had that positive interaction with Tyrion, and Rob was hostile, and the alpha in the room so... that all makes sense to me. 

I think it's difficult to pin down because it is a combination of factors, and I think Aemon not being shown with Ghost was deliberate (unless my memory has failed me lol) and am curious to see how the wolves will react to Dany in future books, as I think that will be telling. We do know that Lady showed no hostility towards the other Lannister's and there was no mention of Nymeria reacting other than when Jeoffery was a direct threat so I don't see how it could be Tyrion being a Lannister. The only reaction we got was to Payne and I don't know much about his house, but he did used to work for the Targaryens so who does anyone know of a potential dragon link there? 

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15 hours ago, Damsel in Distress said:

We know from George Martin's pitch letter for AGOT that there was, and likely will be, friction between Tyrion and Jon over one of the Stark girls.  Now, it may not play out exactly like that in the final text but the broad strokes are there, there will be a major personal conflict between Tyrion and Jon, Lannister vs. Stark.  That will add some needed drama between those two families and could make Jon a little less boring.  The wolves are not necessarily smart.  The author just wants to drop hints here and there.

That the two families are and will continue to be enemies.  I believe so.

 

Is Tyrion part Targaryen?  I am not convinced.  But if he is, perhaps an ice creature like Ghost can sense its future enemy.  Jon and the Starks are all ice.  Their dogs are also ice.  It fits the theme of the story, the eternal wrestling match between fire and ice, light and dark, hot and cold, day and night, life and death.  

17 hours ago, Katerine459 said:

So, I've been rereading the series (actually, I read the series, and now I'm listening to it, which is not a way of doing things that I recommend, if you want to avoid being really irritated all the time), and got really stuck on a big question that I think has huge implications for Tyrion's character, and for the overall plot, but a search for the question got no results. That question is: why do the direwolves hate Tyrion?

I'm not kidding... I'm losing sleep over this question! So here's what I've figured out so far, and I would welcome any (serious) theories.

I'm taking it as a given that direwolves are highly intelligent, and they are the destined protectors of the Stark children, and they can sense stuff, like threats to the Stark children. So I don't think the direwolves hate Tyrion for the same shallow reasons that humans hate him (because he's a dwarf and ugly).

They might also be "of ice," in the same way Dany's dragons are "of fire." So maybe this gives weight to the Tyrion Targaryen theory? (Except, why did we never hear anything about Ghost hating Maester Aemon? Unless Ghost is unusual because he's Jon's... but Ghost hated Tyrion too.)

Or maybe it's because he's a Lannister, and the Lannisters are pretty much responsible for the deaths of Lady, Grey Wind, and Robb? I don't much like this theory, as it implies that the direwolves can't tell the difference between Tyrion and his relatives.

Or maybe sometime in the future, Tyrion will betray everybody? I love Tyrion's character, so I really don't want it to be this, but it does seem to make the most sense. Especially given Quaithe's warning to Dany, not to trust the "lion" (when Tyrion's the only lion that Dany's likely to meet anytime soon... assuming Quaithe's warning is to be trusted in the first place).

Or maybe Tyrion's an unreliable narrator, and GRRM's been lying to us about his character this whole time?

Yeah. This has been really, really confusing me. :) What do you think?

One other reason is the animal's prey drive.  Direwolves are wilder, more savage, more primitive than their wolf cousins.  They are creatures of the north and we have all discussed how savage and primitive the northmen are.  The wildlings are even more so.  Creatures north of the wall are the most savage and primitive of all.  That goes for man and beast.  So a savage hunter like a direwolf would have a lot more of the prey drive than a wolf in the Riverlands.  Their hunting instincts kick in when they see a vulnerable, think wounded, old, sick, human prey.  In their eyes, Tyrion is weak.  Though we know the Halfman in the books is a fierce fighter.  The direwolves don't know that.  They just see someone who appears easy to kill and eat. 

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2 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

That the two families are and will continue to be enemies.  I believe so.

 

Is Tyrion part Targaryen?  I am not convinced.  But if he is, perhaps an ice creature like Ghost can sense its future enemy.  Jon and the Starks are all ice.  Their dogs are also ice.  It fits the theme of the story, the eternal wrestling match between fire and ice, light and dark, hot and cold, day and night, life and death.  

One other reason is the animal's prey drive.  Direwolves are wilder, more savage, more primitive than their wolf cousins.  They are creatures of the north and we have all discussed how savage and primitive the northmen are.  The wildlings are even more so.  Creatures north of the wall are the most savage and primitive of all.  That goes for man and beast.  So a savage hunter like a direwolf would have a lot more of the prey drive than a wolf in the Riverlands.  Their hunting instincts kick in when they see a vulnerable, think wounded, old, sick, human prey.  In their eyes, Tyrion is weak.  Though we know the Halfman in the books is a fierce fighter.  The direwolves don't know that.  They just see someone who appears easy to kill and eat. 

It's interesting that two people can read the same story and come up with completely different understandings, isn't it? :)

When I read ASOIAF, what really strikes me is that the good people are typically on either the fire end of the spectrum, or the ice end, and the people in the middle are... mostly corrupt (selfish, greedy, sadistic, and inclined to twist the truth for their own purposes...). (Also, Dany is far more savage than the Starks, with the exception of Arya.) But Dany primarily values compassion and strength, while the Starks primarily value integrity and communion... and they're all very good people (again, with the possible exception of the person Arya's becoming :( ). They just embody different aspects of what it means to be, "good." And, interestingly, both sides start out very naive.

Meanwhile, the "fire and ice" that are genuinely scary lie in the otherworldly - the Others, the Children, the dragons, the Old Gods, the Lord of Light...

So when I read the story, I don't see fire against ice in the Targaryens and Starks. I see two polar opposites that are both good in their own ways, and the best resolution is for them to come to an understanding and rule together. This is especially true when you consider Jon's apparent importance to the overall story.

But getting back to the direwolves... a lot of people made some really good points. I had considered the "they're reacting to their warg's emotions" angle, but had forgotten to put it in the original post. Whenever I considered that, I always got stuck on Summer attacking Tyrion when Bran had no animosity towards him (as Lord Lannister mentioned). But you guys may have a good point... it could be a wide range of factors, and Grey Wind may have been the alpha in the room at the time (since Ghost was absent), which might account for Summer attacking Tyrion as well.

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