Why do the direwolves hate Tyrion?

[Azarial]

56 minutes ago, Katerine459 said:

It's interesting that two people can read the same story and come up with completely different understandings, isn't it?

It really is. I will think something is very clear then read someone else say the opposite and go, huh? quite a bit

56 minutes ago, Katerine459 said:

When I read ASOIAF, what really strikes me is that the good people are typically on either the fire end of the spectrum, or the ice end, and the people in the middle are... mostly corrupt (selfish, greedy, sadistic, and inclined to twist the truth for their own purposes...).

I hadn't noticed that, interesting. I noticed that the Lannisters are associated with fake fire, AKA wildfire and were/are envious of the Targaryens and Starks and feel threatened by them, so I guess that's the same thing. Just never thought in those terms.

56 minutes ago, Katerine459 said:

(Also, Dany is far more savage than the Starks, with the exception of Arya.) But Dany primarily values compassion and strength, while the Starks primarily value integrity and communion... and they're all very good people (again, with the possible exception of the person Arya's becoming  ). They just embody different aspects of what it means to be, "good." And, interestingly, both sides start out very naive.

56 minutes ago, Katerine459 said:

Meanwhile, the "fire and ice" that are genuinely scary lie in the otherworldly - the Others, the Children, the dragons, the Old Gods, the Lord of Light...

So when I read the story, I don't see fire against ice in the Targaryens and Starks. I see two polar opposites that are both good in their own ways, and the best resolution is for them to come to an understanding and rule together. This is especially true when you consider Jon's apparent importance to the overall story.

I agree to this too, except I think they both are able to influence or control those two opposites, so them working together would be the small scale foreshadowing of how to end the large scale issue.

56 minutes ago, Katerine459 said:

But getting back to the direwolves... a lot of people made some really good points. I had considered the "they're reacting to their warg's emotions" angle, but had forgotten to put it in the original post. Whenever I considered that, I always got stuck on Summer attacking Tyrion when Bran had no animosity towards him (as Lord Lannister mentioned). But you guys may have a good point... it could be a wide range of factors, and Grey Wind may have been the alpha in the room at the time (since Ghost was absent), which might account for Summer attacking Tyrion as well.

Someone should do a reread where they note the wolf and warg emotional state to see where the wolf reactions match the warg and where they don't to see what pattern there may be. The wolves, especially Ghost and Summer, are so blended with the warg that it's easy to miss, or to forget details like this. Like when Ghost defends the chicken, Jon is feeling defensive about being a bastard, so is this a link or not? Figuring that out might make it easier to decide why they reacted the way the did to Tyrion.

[The Hoare]

Tyrion is selfish and wicked. Not really the kind of human you should trust. The wolves probably sensed it

[Ylath's Snout]

3 hours ago, The Hoare said:

Tyrion is selfish and wicked. Not really the kind of human you should trust. The wolves probably sensed it

So how come they didn't completely lose their shit around Cersei then?

[Springwatch]

1 hour ago, Ylath's Snout said:

So how come they didn't completely lose their shit around Cersei then?

It's not consistent - therefore I assume they're taking cues from outside themselves. This 'outside source' has a deep connection to Stark family & heritage - it knew about the death of Ned. It might be more instinctive than intelligent though. I reckon the wolves were triggered into this state of mind by the presence of Robb, enthroned on the seat of the Lord of Winterfell, with his sword across his knees, grim, angry and judgemental - exactly like the kings his ancestors. The wolves reverted to the old, old story.

14 hours ago, Katerine459 said:

When I read ASOIAF, what really strikes me is that the good people are typically on either the fire end of the spectrum, or the ice end, and the people in the middle are... mostly corrupt (selfish, greedy, sadistic, and inclined to twist the truth for their own purposes...)

<snip>

Meanwhile, the "fire and ice" that are genuinely scary lie in the otherworldly - the Others, the Children, the dragons, the Old Gods, the Lord of Light...

So when I read the story, I don't see fire against ice in the Targaryens and Starks. I see two polar opposites that are both good in their own ways, and the best resolution is for them to come to an understanding and rule together. This is especially true when you consider Jon's apparent importance to the overall story.

<snip>

That's sort of true, though I hadn't really thought about it before. I think heroes have to be a bit extreme. But the heroes have to take responsibility for their extreme nature, and maybe even give it up - the Targs and the Starks are the solution, but they are also the problem: they embody elemental extremes. If the world is not to fall to ultimate winter, it's likely the Starks have to be defeated in some way. (There is no more auspicious event in the whole series than winter lord Ned getting his head sliced off by sun king Joffrey.)

[Bael's Bastard]

On 5/23/2018 at 9:35 PM, kissdbyfire said:

The direwolves pick up on Robb's hostile feelings towards Tyrion, that's all. 

And btw ask Ghost how bothered he is by .Jon's blood.

 

That was my impression. 

[zandru]

9 hours ago, The Hoare said:

Tyrion is selfish and wicked. Not really the kind of human you should trust. The wolves probably sensed it

Oh, really? As the little dude walks in, saddle plans in hand and a detailed training program which will help crippled Bran to ride again? And warm words about Robb's half brother Jon, now exiled to the Wall, who has become Tyrion's friend?

Tyrion - maybe selfish at times, but never "wicked." The direwolves are cuing off Robb's anti-Lannister preconceptions, fueled by his discussions with his mother over the Lysa secret note and attempted assassination of his little brother. Like several of us have said. What one direwolf feels (e.g. Gray Wind), the rest perceive, too.

[John Suburbs]

Another example of the wolves picking up on the emotions of their wargs:

Bran/Summer and SD with the Reeds in the godswood. The wolves are fine right up until Jojen starts pressing Bran about his dreams. Bran suddenly grows fearful and, wham, the wolves are right their with their fangs bared and chase both Reeds up the heart tree like a couple of squirrels.

[The Hoare]

On 5/25/2018 at 11:37 AM, zandru said:

Oh, really? As the little dude walks in, saddle plans in hand and a detailed training program which will help crippled Bran to ride again? And warm words about Robb's half brother Jon, now exiled to the Wall, who has become Tyrion's friend? 

Tyrion - maybe selfish at times, but never "wicked." The direwolves are cuing off Robb's anti-Lannister preconceptions, fueled by his discussions with his mother over the Lysa secret note and attempted assassination of his little brother. Like several of us have said. What one direwolf feels (e.g. Gray Wind), the rest perceive, too. 

Just look at how he reacted after seeing Masha's corpse(the inn owner where Catelyn kidnapped him)

[Quoth the raven,]

On 5/25/2018 at 1:28 AM, The Hoare said:

Tyrion is selfish and wicked. Not really the kind of human you should trust. The wolves probably sensed it

The wolves don't have a problem with morality else they wouldn't hang out with the Starks.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

The dire wolf are all have an empathic bond with their owners , the Starks had issues with the Lannisters , then so will their companions .

[The Sunland Lord]

Tyrion killed his mother when he was born, and kinslayers are accursed. It's also foreshadowing of Tyrion's murder of his father. Direwolves know this stuff, they are sent from the Old Gods. 

[kissdbyfire]

5 hours ago, Quoth the raven, said:

The wolves don't have a problem with morality else they wouldn't hang out with the Starks.

Sorry, but what exactly do you mean? 

[ravenous reader]

The direwolves and Tyrion may have a date with destiny. This passage feels like foreshadowing -- though of what I could not say.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Tyrion I

Somewhere in the great stone maze of Winterfell, a wolf howled. The sound hung over the castle like a flag of mourning.

Tyrion Lannister looked up from his books and shivered, though the library was snug and warm. Something about the howling of a wolf took a man right out of his here and now and left him in a dark forest of the mind, running naked before the pack.

There's also a symbolic parallel made to the Prologue events. See for yourselves:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Prologue

Will could feel it. Four years in the Night's Watch, and he had never been so afraid. What was it?

"Wind. Trees rustling. A wolf. Which sound is it that unmans you so, Gared?" 

 

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Tyrion VI

Tyrion remembered a cold night under the stars when he'd stood beside the boy Jon Snow and a great white wolf atop the Wall at the end of the world, gazing out at the trackless dark beyond. He had felt—what?—something, to be sure, a dread that had cut like that frigid northern wind. A wolf had howled off in the night, and the sound had sent a shiver through him.

Don't be a fool, he told himself. A wolf, a wind, a dark forest, it meant nothing. And yet . . . 

 

[fire&blood]

On ‎5‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 6:51 PM, kissdbyfire said:

Sorry, but what exactly do you mean? 

Second that.

 

On ‎5‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 12:58 PM, Quoth the raven, said:

The wolves don't have a problem with morality else they wouldn't hang out with the Starks.

 

[ChuckPunch]

It's an abandoned plot point where Tyrion was going to do Theon's "sack Winterfell" plot and actively war against the Starks. George tossed it out in favor of shaping Theon into Reek.

Let's move on. 

[zandru]

On 5/26/2018 at 12:47 PM, The Hoare said:

Just look at how he reacted after seeing Masha's corpse(the inn owner where Catelyn kidnapped him)

I had no problem with Tyrion's reaction. He looked at her sadly, thinking that if she'd just managed to accommodate him that night, his father would never have set his mad dogs on her and her inn. What, did you think he was gloating, or rejoicing? Not hardly.

[867-5309]

Ghost raided Gillie's rabbit pen and killed the rabbits that she was raising to feed her family.  Direwolves are carnivores and they see this small, two=legged creature that moved strange and "prey", "tasty" comes to mind.  It's not hate, because animals do not hate.  Wolves will readily eat human flesh and the imp is fresh meat to them.

[Katerine459]

1 hour ago, 867-5309 said:

Ghost raided Gillie's rabbit pen and killed the rabbits that she was raising to feed her family.  Direwolves are carnivores and they see this small, two=legged creature that moved strange and "prey", "tasty" comes to mind.  It's not hate, because animals do not hate.  Wolves will readily eat human flesh and the imp is fresh meat to them.

The issue with this is that they weren't acting like Tyrion was prey. They were acting like he was a threat. Hackles rising, teeth bared, snapping and snarling but not actually biting... I'm pretty sure that's not how canines act when they're hunting; that's how they act when they're feeling threatened.

[James Fenimore Cooper XXII]

On 5/30/2018 at 11:47 PM, 867-5309 said:

Ghost raided Gillie's rabbit pen and killed the rabbits that she was raising to feed her family.  Direwolves are carnivores and they see this small, two=legged creature that moved strange and "prey", "tasty" comes to mind.  It's not hate, because animals do not hate.  Wolves will readily eat human flesh and the imp is fresh meat to them.

Poor Gilly!  Yeah wolvess do not respect fences if there is something edible on the other side.  At least Ghost didn't.

On 5/31/2018 at 1:22 AM, Katerine459 said:

The issue with this is that they weren't acting like Tyrion was prey. They were acting like he was a threat. Hackles rising, teeth bared, snapping and snarling but not actually biting... I'm pretty sure that's not how canines act when they're hunting; that's how they act when they're feeling threatened.

Tyrion is a lion.  The wolves recognized a superior predator.  Or just GM creating drama.

[The Sunland Lord]

Maybe he didn't knock on the door. Dogs bark when someone comes in without knocking and wolves and dogs are kind of related.